Revamp Medical School Admissions to Mimic Residency Application Process

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The way the system is set up is to show how resourceful you are and how much BS you're willing to put up with. This guarantees that the applicant will make it through the entire process.

Point 1 is already being used. I understand the spirit of point 2, but maybe we can create more clear guidelines instead of necessarily saying that someone shouldn't have to do shadowing. Schools can compromise at being direct saying "we require 50 hours of shadowing" and not penalizing for having below that. Points 3-5 I would agree with. I find it ridiculous these PhDs think they can evaluate us. Point 6 misses the point that URM is not about giving poor people a chance. It's about representation in healthcare because we know that minority populations are impacted by not having enough physicians that represent them. The present system is good.

I don't think there's any real evidence that the individuals they're blindly accepting will go on to represent anyone.

I like the idea of specifying a clinical hours requirement and not awarding any bonus points for applicants who go beyond it. That way people will pursue what they're actually interested in.

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I don't think there's any real evidence that the individuals they're blindly accepting will go on to represent anyone.

I like the idea of specifying a clinical hours requirement and not awarding any bonus points for applicants who go beyond it. That way people will pursue what they're actually interested in.
It's about the presence in the community and not necessarily seeking it out. Patients will seek you, but either way, greater likelihood exists with minorities being interested and involved in minority issues than non-minorities going being interested and involved in minority issues.
 
the mcat is a breadth slot machine. you develop all this background knowledge and do all these practice problems and you hope you dont get blind-sided by it, but are ultimately left at the mercy of its slot machine pseudo "skill" (note the quotes) based testing.

The step 1 sounds fair more reasonable, meaning you study, learn all you can, and are held accountable for that knowledge.

Are you kidding me, the step is even worse than the MCAT in that regard in that there is exponentially more to know and still dependent on that 'luck' factor in that you hope the question stems are on topics you know better.
 
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I'm sort of a cynical person here and I feel that you are using the rest of your points as a pretext to launch a massive discussion on affirmative action and how socioeconomic status should be a consideration in admissions instead of race. Just be clear with your intentions.
 
I'm sort of a cynical person here and I feel that you are using the rest of your points as a pretext to launch a massive discussion on affirmative action and how socioeconomic status should be a consideration in admissions instead of race. Just be clear with your intentions.

Not at all. That's actually the point I'm least interested in. I'm responding to everything people are bringing up including MMIs, MCAT issues, and adcom qualifications. I want others to lead the discussion.
 
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bolded part = lol no. check the mcat 30+ scorers thread for 35+ scorers they started high and scored higher most of the time. if they were laughing at my face, they'd need to seriously recheck their numbers. Also, of course they'd have favor the setup, considering they succeeded on it.

Also elaborate on verbal because it's cheap as hell, poorly optimized, and flawed.


correction: I don't like the mcat because sections, such as verbal are flawed.

It could arguably be the same for you, where your struggles with it makes you disfavor the setup.
 
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It's about the presence in the community and not necessarily seeking it out. Patients will seek you, but either way, greater likelihood exists with minorities being interested and involved in minority issues than non-minorities going being interested and involved in minority issues.

Is there data that separates likelihood of working with underserved areas by SES rather than race? I think there is a confounding factor here in that more URMs are likely to be low SES, hence they are likely to return to those areas. Not because they are URMs, but rather because they grew up low SES. I find it really hard to believe a URM who grew up in Irvine has the desire to go work in Compton because their skin color is different. The way the current system is set up is not favorable to poor ORMs, hence the data might be skewed to say that ORMs are less likely to work in underserved areas. Just a thought.
 
The way the system is set up is to show how resourceful you are and how much BS you're willing to put up with. This guarantees that the applicant will make it through the entire process.

Point 1 is already being used. I understand the spirit of point 2, but maybe we can create more clear guidelines instead of necessarily saying that someone shouldn't have to do shadowing. Schools can compromise at being direct saying "we require 50 hours of shadowing" and not penalizing for having below that. Points 3-5 I would agree with. I find it ridiculous these PhDs think they can evaluate us. Point 6 misses the point that URM is not about giving poor people a chance. It's about representation in healthcare because we know that minority populations are impacted by not having enough physicians that represent them. The present system is good.

Absolutely agree with the point about PhDs. Physicians and fourth year medical students are fundamentally more in tune with the art of healthcare delivery and are much more familiar with the nuances of the profession, what characteristics future doctors should have, etc.
 
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Not at all. That's actually the point I'm least interested in. I'm responding to everything people are bringing up including MMIs, MCAT issues, and adcom qualifications. I want others to lead the discussion.

Okey dokey. From a cursory glance at your post, it seems that you think the residency match system is more seamless than medical school admissions. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are actually quite similar. The only difference is (from what I can see) is a much heavier emphasis on Step 1 and research and preclinical grades. I think already being in medical school communicates that you are already interested in a field, hence a sharply decreased emphasis on independent clinical involvement.
 
Not to take this further off topic (I like most of your suggestions outside of the MD requirement for adcoms, OP) but how exactly is verbal flawed?

look at the way it's scaled for starters missing a small amount of questions (3-5) can drop you a large number of points. miss 10 questions and you're down to a 9. Improving the way you score in the section is random at best as well (if you don't believe me check most people's FL scores in order).
 
Are you kidding me, the step is even worse than the MCAT in that regard in that there is exponentially more to know and still dependent on that 'luck' factor in that you hope the question stems are on topics you know better.

interesting, so how did you do on the step 1?
 
look at the way it's scaled for starters missing a small amount of questions (3-5) can drop you a large number of points. miss 10 questions and you're down to a 9. Improving the way you score in the section is random at best as well (if you don't believe me check most people's FL scores in order).

The way they scale the raw scores to a 1-15 score is in order to maintain a roughly normal distribution of scores for each section. A goal they achieved, according to AAMC data, if you look at the distributions of scores they are all within the range of normal. Further, there are less questions in the VR section compared to each science, meaning each question will inherently carry slightly more weight. To achieve 10 points on PS or BS, you need to get 75% of the questions in that section right. For VR, you need to get 73% of the questions right, meaning (from a raw percentage standpoint) that verbal is actually curved more generously than BS or PS. You'll find that for every point value on the scale, the % of questions correct in order to achieve a certain score is within 1% for VR, BS, and PS. So that argument kind of falls apart.

Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/160647318/AAMC-Score-Conversions
 
Absolutely agree with the point about PhDs. Physicians and fourth year medical students are fundamentally more in tune with the art of healthcare delivery and are much more familiar with the nuances of the profession, what characteristics future doctors should have, etc.

get off your high horse

I was interviewed by a clinical psychologist once. I wouldn't say that person was unqualified to assess me, my experiences or my character.
 
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get off your high horse

I was interviewed by a clinical psychiatrist once. I wouldn't say that person was unqualified to assess me, my experiences or my character.

First of all, a clinical anything would obviously be more qualified to assess MD applicants than PhDs or MAs. Second, psychiatrists are physicians, so you make no valid point. Third, should doctors sit on admissions committees for law, nursing, or engineering schools?
 
The way they scale the raw scores to a 1-15 score is in order to maintain a roughly normal distribution of scores for each section. A goal they achieved, according to AAMC data, if you look at the distributions of scores they are all within the range of normal. Further, there are less questions in the VR section compared to each science, meaning each question will inherently carry slightly more weight. To achieve 10 points on PS or BS, you need to get 75% of the questions in that section right. For VR, you need to get 73% of the questions right, meaning (from a raw percentage standpoint) that verbal is actually curved more generously than BS or PS. You'll find that for every point value on the scale, the % of questions correct in order to achieve a certain score is within 1% for VR, BS, and PS. So that argument kind of falls apart.

Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/160647318/AAMC-Score-Conversions

lol. Just because it makes sense for a statistical standpoint and can be rationalized that way, doesn't mean it works that way in real life, especially considering a good portion of those who take VR would agree with me. Anyone can make a standard distribution even with the most jagged and poor fit by calling any data that doesnt even match their results "outliers". That data could easily be reproduced and given a totally diff result dude.
 
First of all, a clinical anything would obviously be more qualified to assess MD applicants than PhDs or MAs. Second, psychiatrists are physicians, so you make no valid point. Third, should doctors sit on admissions committees for law, nursing, or engineering schools?

OK, whoops, I meant psychologist.

Also, your argument is just silly and has no reasonable basis. It's essentially "I will only be judged by MDs because only they are worthy/qualified to assess me". Can you see how that is idiotic?

People are not defined by their degrees. An admissions committee may know a non-physician faculty member and value their expertise and assessment. And a"PhD" just may have a pretty good understanding of healthcare.
 
1) MCAT and GPA is already weighted more than other factors--> So nothing new here.
2) Sure, this makes sense. Though, I am skeptical to believe that adcoms are going to reject an otherwise "good" applicant. There is a lot more schools doing a "holistic" review of applications, granted not all of them...
3) This makes sense.
4) This is BS. Faculty at medical schools of course should have an opinion on what kind of students they admit. After all, sometimes they will mentor a medical student in research and whatnot. For the most part, PhDs and MDs are part of the process, which I think is reasonable.
5) This is BS. there is research out there saying that MMI is beneficial to both evaluators and applicants. This makes sense, there is less interviewer bias, if you screw up a question, you can still recover. There is a reason why a lot of schools are incorporating MMI in their admission process. Sure, some scenarios are "weird," but they are obviously evaluating soft skills that otherwise aren't obvious on someone's application.
6) I don't understand why people say that adcoms don't take SES into account--> maybe because there is not a aamc table explaining this like there is for people's race (table 25). Anyways, In the amcas application they ask about disadvantage status (you write a paragraph about it), how you paid for school, if you are using FAP, and how much money your parents make. Why would they ask this if they are not going to use it...


Hello fellow SDNers. I wanted to spark a discussion regarding an issue that I've been thinking extensively about since the beginning of last summer and that is the goals, nature of, and success of the current medical school admissions process. I ran several of these ideas and suggestions past the Dean for Medical Education at the school I'm currently doing research at and was surprised to receive positive feedback and genuine interest in some of these points. Was curious to hear what people (especially current and former applicants) thought.

It appears to me and many of my pre-med friends and acquaintances that the current system of med school admissions feels extremely contrived, with artificial hoops set-up for no discernible purpose than to please some bigwigs or administrators sitting on admissions committees. Schools are often extremely vague about what they're looking for. It seems that much of the process is "fake" and rewards mindless box-checking/conforming to certain requirements than really preparing oneself for a career in medicine. If we're really honest with ourselves, we would admit that this process has at least somewhat affected how we structure or schedules/ECs/summers and the thought of medical school is always looming in the back of our minds as we go through undergrad.

Applications for residency/post-graduate training differ significantly from those for medical school. As is well known, residency directors look at 1. USMLE Step I score (in order to have a standard for comparing all applicants) 2. Clerkship grades (are you a strong clinician? can you work with other residents/attendings?) 3. Letters of recommendation from physicians (very field dependent but writers are often from the specialty you're applying to) 4. Research (are you committed to academics/advancing the field? More so at top programs). They care very little about anything else. Some cool ECs and volunteering may be good talking points but they never make or break an application. People want to know a) Are you smart? b) Can you be a good physician with whom we can work with for the next 3-7 years? The whole process seems much more intuitive, almost like applying for any normal job.

Now, what if we can extend some of these principles in order to make medical school admissions look more like residency applications? I've heard of some people advocating for a match system in order to minimize waitlisting, which is an interesting but slightly different discussion. First, we must establish "the point" of the whole system. How can we find people who will make excellent physicians and advance the field we're so passionately about? I think the crucial questions that we must ask are 1) Are you a smart individual? Will you be able to successfully graduate from medical school and become licensed? 2) Are you interested in medicine?What makes you passionate about the field? 3) Are you somebody with whom people can work?
In order to better answer these questions, I'd like to propose the following modifications:

1. MCAT + GPA: These should be very heavily favored a la Step I.
2. Eliminate ridiculous cut-offs that some committees have in terms of box checking. A personal anecdote: My SO who is on the committee of a top 5 med school at my undergrad told me that a 3.9+ from Princeton with good research, no red flags, worked through college to support themselves, and who spent 2 years in Colombia streamlining healthcare delivery systems got dinged because of insufficient shadowing. "How do we know he's really interested in medicine, they asked." These kinds of attitudes from members who aren't even physicians (see point 4) are ridiculous and archaic. There should be no cutoffs for clinical experience/shadowing, volunteering, or other requirements. The resume padding that occurs among pre-meds is wildly rampant (I myself am guilty of this) and really isn't productive for anybody or makes a good use of students' time. I've seen posts on SDN that boast getting 100000 hours of hospital volunteering just to one-up somebody else.
3. Make requirements for letters of recommendation more flexible. In a college environment, interacting with professors (particularly science professors) is fairly difficult without some major outside involvement like performing research with your science professor or having him/her as an adviser for your student organization. When applying this cycle, I felt that the people who really knew best were NOT my science professors who lectured from power-point slides but were physicians who I shadowed, my PIs, and EC/student org advisers. Personally, I think this point needs to be discussed/addressed. I chose to present an abstract (on a topic I was not remotely interested in) with one of my science profs in order to better get to know them for a rec letter. This "playing the game" shouldn't be necessary.
4. Make admissions committees MD only (except for screeners). I personally believe that you should not be permitted to assess students' suitability to pursue a degree which you yourself do not possess. Some of the administrators/PhDs on these committees have no idea what real medicine is like (I'm not claiming I do either) and have no idea how out of touch this process is with the reality of pre-medical preparation. Some of them genuinely believe that people who spend a couple hours a week tutoring or going on 2 week trips to Guatemala (never to be seen again) are somehow more compassionate than those who don't.
5. Repeal MMI interviewing in favor of traditional interviews. The whole notion that setting up a bunch of contrived scenarios is somehow better than speaking with and getting to know an actual person is ridiculous. REAL patient interactions occur in the traditional fashion. Residency interviews occur in the same 1 v 1 way. You need to learn how to present your thoughts/ideas/story in a cogent manner to any person who is sitting in front of you. That is real life and nobody will be asking you what you would do if you crashed into a BMW in the parking lot. The most natural solution to this in my view would be to have residency application style "speed-dating" interviews with multiple people.
6. Convert affirmative action utilizing race into an affirmative action system that takes into account socioeconomic status. The latter method would incorporate indigent individuals of ALL races. At several of my interviews/second looks, the vast majority of URM students were super rich and attended private schools. There is absolutely no way that they were more disadvantaged than an Asian or Caucasian growing up in coal country or more likely to serve URM groups in the future. They all admitted to wanting to pursue derm/plastics and open up private practices. Obviously, this is highly controversial and anecdotal but an affirmative action system utilizing socioeconomic status intuitively seems more fair and may better differentiate those who are more likely to practice in underserved areas. Asking individuals who checked the URM box additional questions regarding their ties to certain groups during interviews can also help address this.

Full disclosure: I was very fortunate to be successful this past cycle. This does not, however, mean that I support all of the aspects of medical school admissions or believe that there should not be serious changes to the system. I'd love to hear what other people think.
 
OK, whoops, I meant psychologist.

Also, your argument is just silly and has no reasonable basis. It's essentially "I will only be judged by MDs because only they are worthy/qualified to assess me". Can you see how that is idiotic?

People are not defined by their degrees. An admissions committee may know a non-physician faculty member and value their expertise and assessment. And a"PhD" just may have a pretty good understanding of healthcare.

Uhh I don't see how this is idiotic at all. I'm applying for a specific professional program that, at it's core, involves becoming a clinician and seeing patients. I guarantee you that 98% of medical students will never see another PhD again after their preclinical years are over. Just because they may know something about the political/admin side of medicine does not mean that they are in the trenches of healthcare. This doesn't have anything to do with "worth." I went to MIT and I guarantee you that people would ask questions if a physician or nurse were on the admissions committee of our masters/PhD engineering programs. Could they perhaps gauge if somebody were smart and interested in engineering? Probably. Do they really know what makes a great engineer and the nuances in becoming one? Probably not.

Anecdotally, many many pre meds will tell you that some PhDs just hate them for wanting to pursue MDs. At interviews a ton of my fiends got dick PhDs who continued to ask the why not MD/PhD question over and over again and pretended to be butthurt even after getting very reasonable answers. Again, after the pre clinical science years, PhDs have nothing to do with medical school (apart from specific research). Just because there are MSTP programs does not imply that the degrees are somehow similar or related.
 
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1. Average MCAT score is correlated with parental income, so focusing too much on the MCAT isn't necessarily a positive thing. Grades, don't they already? Also during Step 1 I'd imagine as medical students our loans become the great equalizer helping make Step 1 a more fair bar.

2.I can't say much about committees, I was a nontraditional and applied after graduation so I applied by myself. I already had hours amassed from volunteering when I wasn't a premed yet. I was applying to PhD programs for the field of electrophysiology, so I was lucky to be the odd non premed doing hospital hour. So, I never noticed I was checking a box.

3. This problem is applicant dependent, I had no problem getting letters as I did research projects with several of them, or worked with them professionally. I disagree with this point. Again, not a problem I had, so I'm biased.

4. Hm, okay. I don't get this one really, nor do I agree with it. But, from my history you could guess why.

5. I did both MMI(mine were clinical) and traditional, I liked both of them.

6. I had to explain my URM status and why it mattered at every single interview, one interview for 45 minutes; so I'm not sure if it's a box we enjoy to check. Also, that anecdote isn't evidence, do you have a figure to say that most URM are wealthy and don't plan on serving the underserved than non-URM?

I do however think SES should also be considered to account for private tutoring, MCAT prep and lifestyle differences etc. It just so happen that a lot of URM fall into SES, it should be expanded to everyone fortunately SES is considered -- I just don't know the weight.

There's a lot of money in the process of becoming a successful applicant, I think that's the worst part of the process.
 
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I wish verbal counted for more, as it's the only section that was intuitive to me. "Reading between the lines" seems like a pretty important skill for a physician to have, I would think. Or maybe I'm just butthurt cause my PS score sucks. :cry:
 
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lol. Just because it makes sense for a statistical standpoint and can be rationalized that way, doesn't mean it works that way in real life, especially considering a good portion of those who take VR would agree with me. Anyone can make a standard distribution even with the most jagged and poor fit by calling any data that doesnt even match their results "outliers". That data could easily be reproduced and given a totally diff result dude.

Not when they're showing you 100% of the data, then it's legitimate. And why would they lie? Their goal is to create a test for which the distributions of scores is roughly normal. The AAMC isn't out to get you with the MCAT. They have no reason to misrepresent their data.

Also you didn't address the percentages that I mentioned with questions right -> points, which disproves your assertion that verbal is weighted any differently than PS/BS. Furthermore, 10 questions wrong on VR is either an 11 or a 12 depending on where they draw their line based upon people's performance for the year, so that claim is false as well.

But I don't want to detract from the discussion here, this is an argument for another place.
 
Not when they're showing you 100% of the data, then it's legitimate. And why would they lie? Their goal is to create a test for which the distributions of scores is roughly normal. The AAMC isn't out to get you with the MCAT. They have no reason to misrepresent their data.

Also you didn't address the percentages that I mentioned with questions right -> points, which disproves your assertion that verbal is weighted any differently than PS/BS. Furthermore, 10 questions wrong on VR is either an 11 or a 12 depending on where they draw their line based upon people's performance for the year, so that claim is false as well.

But I don't want to detract from the discussion here, this is an argument for another place.

download the aamc practice FL scaling keys. missing 10 questions puts you down to a 9 or 10 on average.
 
download the aamc practice FL scaling keys. missing 10 questions puts you down to a 9 or 10 on average.
Huh, you're right. I was using an outdated chart. My bad.
 
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Huh, you're right. I was using an outdated chart. My bad.

that's why I say it's very harsh. Just out of curiosity do you remember your FL verbal scores on practice tests? My practice FL VR scores were nonsensical even with additional practice and when I looked at many other's I saw much of the same. On one legit mcat I got an 11 in VR and the next I got a 7 and I literally did nothing different, while in the science sections when I studied more, my scores reflected that with improvements. With the science sections studying more and more resources and doing more problems can really help, but with verbal it's diff. Also, there are a wide range of passage times. Social sciences and science articles are essential to know and do well in for medicine, but if you miss one humanities passage, which use to assess doctors is debatable that can drop you a huge number of points.

In comparison I found the SAT critical reading to be far more objective and the same goes for the LSAT, if you did passages and practice resources you'd know what to expect. If the verbal section was reassessed and modified to be more in line with the science sections and practice improved your scores similarly many of my complaints about the mcat would dissipate.
 
Is there data that separates likelihood of working with underserved areas by SES rather than race? I think there is a confounding factor here in that more URMs are likely to be low SES, hence they are likely to return to those areas. Not because they are URMs, but rather because they grew up low SES. I find it really hard to believe a URM who grew up in Irvine has the desire to go work in Compton because their skin color is different. The way the current system is set up is not favorable to poor ORMs, hence the data might be skewed to say that ORMs are less likely to work in underserved areas. Just a thought.
I believe it's advantageous for ORM's to work/volunteer in places that help the underserved. It seems that they have to go more out of their way to demonstrate this sort of commitment. But I feel that many in this demographic are not aware of the advantages of doing such work as pre-meds. And if they are in a low SES, they may get lumped with other groups without such efforts. I'm just speculating here. Although, I do know a few that have benefitted from volunteering at a county hospital that helps medically underserved populations.
 
Hello fellow SDNers. I wanted to spark a discussion regarding an issue that I've been thinking extensively about since the beginning of last summer and that is the goals, nature of, and success of the current medical school admissions process. I ran several of these ideas and suggestions past the Dean for Medical Education at the school I'm currently doing research at and was surprised to receive positive feedback and genuine interest in some of these points. Was curious to hear what people (especially current and former applicants) thought.

It appears to me and many of my pre-med friends and acquaintances that the current system of med school admissions feels extremely contrived, with artificial hoops set-up for no discernible purpose than to please some bigwigs or administrators sitting on admissions committees. Schools are often extremely vague about what they're looking for. It seems that much of the process is "fake" and rewards mindless box-checking/conforming to certain requirements than really preparing oneself for a career in medicine. If we're really honest with ourselves, we would admit that this process has at least somewhat affected how we structure or schedules/ECs/summers and the thought of medical school is always looming in the back of our minds as we go through undergrad.

Applications for residency/post-graduate training differ significantly from those for medical school. As is well known, residency directors look at 1. USMLE Step I score (in order to have a standard for comparing all applicants) 2. Clerkship grades (are you a strong clinician? can you work with other residents/attendings?) 3. Letters of recommendation from physicians (very field dependent but writers are often from the specialty you're applying to) 4. Research (are you committed to academics/advancing the field? More so at top programs). They care very little about anything else. Some cool ECs and volunteering may be good talking points but they never make or break an application. People want to know a) Are you smart? b) Can you be a good physician with whom we can work with for the next 3-7 years? The whole process seems much more intuitive, almost like applying for any normal job.

Now, what if we can extend some of these principles in order to make medical school admissions look more like residency applications? I've heard of some people advocating for a match system in order to minimize waitlisting, which is an interesting but slightly different discussion. First, we must establish "the point" of the whole system. How can we find people who will make excellent physicians and advance the field we're so passionately about? I think the crucial questions that we must ask are 1) Are you a smart individual? Will you be able to successfully graduate from medical school and become licensed? 2) Are you interested in medicine?What makes you passionate about the field? 3) Are you somebody with whom people can work?
In order to better answer these questions, I'd like to propose the following modifications:

1. MCAT + GPA: These should be very heavily favored a la Step I.
2. Eliminate ridiculous cut-offs that some committees have in terms of box checking. A personal anecdote: My SO who is on the committee of a top 5 med school at my undergrad told me that a 3.9+ from Princeton with good research, no red flags, worked through college to support themselves, and who spent 2 years in Colombia streamlining healthcare delivery systems got dinged because of insufficient shadowing. "How do we know he's really interested in medicine, they asked." These kinds of attitudes from members who aren't even physicians (see point 4) are ridiculous and archaic. There should be no cutoffs for clinical experience/shadowing, volunteering, or other requirements. The resume padding that occurs among pre-meds is wildly rampant (I myself am guilty of this) and really isn't productive for anybody or makes a good use of students' time. I've seen posts on SDN that boast getting 100000 hours of hospital volunteering just to one-up somebody else.
3. Make requirements for letters of recommendation more flexible. In a college environment, interacting with professors (particularly science professors) is fairly difficult without some major outside involvement like performing research with your science professor or having him/her as an adviser for your student organization. When applying this cycle, I felt that the people who really knew best were NOT my science professors who lectured from power-point slides but were physicians who I shadowed, my PIs, and EC/student org advisers. Personally, I think this point needs to be discussed/addressed. I chose to present an abstract (on a topic I was not remotely interested in) with one of my science profs in order to better get to know them for a rec letter. This "playing the game" shouldn't be necessary.
4. Make admissions committees MD only (except for screeners). I personally believe that you should not be permitted to assess students' suitability to pursue a degree which you yourself do not possess. Some of the administrators/PhDs on these committees have no idea what real medicine is like (I'm not claiming I do either) and have no idea how out of touch this process is with the reality of pre-medical preparation. Some of them genuinely believe that people who spend a couple hours a week tutoring or going on 2 week trips to Guatemala (never to be seen again) are somehow more compassionate than those who don't.
5. Repeal MMI interviewing in favor of traditional interviews. The whole notion that setting up a bunch of contrived scenarios is somehow better than speaking with and getting to know an actual person is ridiculous. REAL patient interactions occur in the traditional fashion. Residency interviews occur in the same 1 v 1 way. You need to learn how to present your thoughts/ideas/story in a cogent manner to any person who is sitting in front of you. That is real life and nobody will be asking you what you would do if you crashed into a BMW in the parking lot. The most natural solution to this in my view would be to have residency application style "speed-dating" interviews with multiple people.
6. Convert affirmative action utilizing race into an affirmative action system that takes into account socioeconomic status. The latter method would incorporate indigent individuals of ALL races. At several of my interviews/second looks, the vast majority of URM students were super rich and attended private schools. There is absolutely no way that they were more disadvantaged than an Asian or Caucasian growing up in coal country or more likely to serve URM groups in the future. They all admitted to wanting to pursue derm/plastics and open up private practices. Obviously, this is highly controversial and anecdotal but an affirmative action system utilizing socioeconomic status intuitively seems more fair and may better differentiate those who are more likely to practice in underserved areas. Asking individuals who checked the URM box additional questions regarding their ties to certain groups during interviews can also help address this.

Full disclosure: I was very fortunate to be successful this past cycle. This does not, however, mean that I support all of the aspects of medical school admissions or believe that there should not be serious changes to the system. I'd love to hear what other people think.
If you think you hate medical school admissions (which I would disagree a lot with), just wait till you go thru the NRMP residency match. You've seen nothing yet.
 

From a cursory look, it isn't all that accurate for starters and second is more sensationalist than anything.

When I applied for the match, I was applying to the most competitive specialty by numbers (small, new field, few programs). Not necessarily the "most desirable", but a field that made it prudent to cast a very wide net. I applied to 65 programs. I interviewed at 21 of them. Yes, if you really tried, you could stretch out your interviewing for 3 months, but for the vast majority of applicants (myself included going on an insane number), it is really less than 2 months and highly concentrated in bunches. I didn't spend anything close to the costs that they talked about. The median debt is 70k less than what they claim. The closer I read, the more I see sensationalist journalism with the largest justification being, "Its an old system, lets change it!"

Not to spend too much time on it, the match favors applicants. It is not perfect. Poor applicants are NOT going to magically get desirable specialties or desirable locations/programs in ANY system. I don't see an alternative proposed in it, I just see whining.
 
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From a cursory look, it isn't all that accurate for starters and second is more sensationalist than anything.

When I applied for the match, I was applying to the most competitive specialty by numbers (small, new field, few programs). Not necessarily the "most desirable", but a field that made it prudent to cast a very wide net. I applied to 65 programs. I interviewed at 21 of them. Yes, if you really tried, you could stretch out your interviewing for 3 months, but for the vast majority of applicants (myself included going on an insane number), it is really less than 2 months and highly concentrated in bunches. I didn't spend anything close to the costs that they talked about. The median debt is 70k less than what they claim. The closer I read, the more I see sensationalist journalism with the largest justification being, "Its an old system, lets change it!"

Not to spend too much time on it, the match favors applicants. It is not perfect. Poor applicants are NOT going to magically get desirable specialties or desirable locations/programs in ANY system. I don't see an alternative proposed in it, I just see whining.
I appreciate the input! I know nothing about this process, but I found this article a few months ago, and I was curious if it had any substance.
 
I've taken the mcat and SAT and if you ask me the mcat was nothing like the SAT, which was far more reasonable as you were held accountable for the listed material and the study resources were representative of the real test. the mcat is a breadth slot machine. you develop all this background knowledge and do all these practice problems and you hope you dont get blind-sided by it, but are ultimately left at the mercy of its slot machine pseudo "skill" (note the quotes) based testing. It also seems pretty hard to correlate the step 1 and mcat when they are designed to assess students in two totally diff ways as you mentioned. The step 1 sounds fair more reasonable, meaning you study, learn all you can, and are held accountable for that knowledge.

Also look at the way the cutoffs are done in verbal reasoning. it's not only flawed but nonsensical.
As a premed, you know NOTHING about Step 1 and how "reasonable" it is.
 
1. Average MCAT score is correlated with parental income, so focusing too much on the MCAT isn't necessarily a positive thing.
Just stop talking.
 
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I believe it's advantageous for ORM's to work/volunteer in places that help the underserved. It seems that they have to go more out of their way to demonstrate this sort of commitment. But I feel that many in this demographic are not aware of the advantages of doing such work as pre-meds. And if they are in a low SES, they may get lumped with other groups without such efforts. I'm just speculating here. Although, I do know a few that have benefitted from volunteering at a county hospital that helps medically underserved populations.

I agree, I think showing interest in the underserved is always a plus regardless of what race you apply as. I was just wondering if anyone had data to back up that SES isn't the main factor for likelihood to return to underserved communities as a physician (as in SES vs. likelihood to return has no correlation). If so, then the URM data could stand on its own no problem. Since URMs are more likely to be low SES, and in turn URMs are more likely to return to underserved communities, it is only logical to look at the data from both the race-alone, as well as SES-alone perspectives. I don't know if I make any sense lol
 
I saw the long post and immediately thought, oh man this is gonna be a bunch of sour grapes, but you actually raise a lot of good points. Some schools do operate closer to the fashion that you propose, and the ones that don't are surely missing out on some strong applicants.

For the record, plenty of residencies do have cutoffs as well in regards to research and step 1 scores. Also I'm not a fan of the MMI either.

Considering the fact that residencies are often looking for candidates who will do research and thus advance the institution of the residency, research cutoffs seem legitimate. In addition, while standardized tests certainly have their flaws, they are arguably the only objective measure we have to compare applicants; no part of medical education is truly standardized.
 
Has nothing to do with "throwing my weight around". Saying that "MCAT score is correlated with parental income" is pure BS on your part. One could say the same for Step 1 since it also is a standardized test.

You're right f**k data.
 
You're right f**k data.
You're right, let's just throw away the MCAT altogether, since it's biased based on parental income, bc a few PhDs thru the AAMC (who wrote an amicus curiae brief supporting Affirmative Action - so it's not like they have an agenda) say so. Have they correlated GPAs with parental income yet? If so, we should throw that away too.
 
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You're right, let's just throw away the MCAT altogether, since it's biased based on parental income, bc a few PhDs thru the AAMC (who wrote an amicus curiae brief supporting Affirmative Action - so it's not like they have an agenda) say so. Have they correlated GPAs with parental income yet? If so, we should throw that away too.

Toss out? I'm justifying SES nothing more, chill out. I won't argue for points I never made.
 
Toss out? I'm justifying SES nothing more, chill out. I won't argue for points I never made.
You said, "Average MCAT score is correlated with parental income, so focusing too much on the MCAT isn't necessarily a positive thing." Every metric in use, including GPA can be "correlated with parental income".
 
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I know you like to throw you weight around, so what I say what matter, but the very reason the AAMC bothers to use SES is because it matters:
https://www.aamc.org/download/330166/data/seseffectivepractices.pdf
No, the reason the AAMC bothers to use SES is bc of pandering. It looks very bad on an organization to say out loud that it doesn't believe in affirmative action or low SES as part of admissions. There's a reason schools advertise their "diversity" to potential applicants.
 
You said, "Average MCAT score is correlated with parental income, so focusing too much on the MCAT isn't necessarily a positive thing." Every metric in use, including GPA can be "correlated with parental income".

MCAT.

Probably, so they made SES. But, I restrict my argument to what was found by the AAMC.

Can you point out where I said toss them out?
 
No, the reason the AAMC bothers to use SES is bc of pandering. It looks very bad on an organization to say out loud that it doesn't believe in affirmative action or low SES as part of admissions. There's a reason schools advertise their "diversity" to potential applicants.

Okay. We probably won't come to minds over this issue, but I appreciated the conversation.
 
1. Average MCAT score is correlated with parental income, so focusing too much on the MCAT isn't necessarily a positive thing. Grades, don't they already? Also during Step 1 I'd imagine as medical students our loans become the great equalizer helping make Step 1 a more fair bar.

The main issue is that everything correlates with parental income including life expectancy, overall health, and later financial success in life. Using that logic you can discount everything because it "correlates with parental income." Whether or not a potential boost should be given to applicants because of their ability and determination to overcome extraordinary adversity is another issue altogether but no exam should be discounted purely on those grounds.
 
The main issue is that everything correlates with parental income including life expectancy, overall health, and later financial success in life. Using that logic you can discount everything because it "correlates with parental income." Whether or not a potential boost should be given to applicants because of their ability and determination to overcome extraordinary adversity is another issue altogether but no exam should be discounted purely on those grounds.

Incorrect, I am not discounting their efforts. Everyone works hard for their life (hopefully). I'm just presenting the data that exists and how the AAMC justifies the SES that you also say you want expanded.

Numbers are numbers, I'm sorry. =)
 
My MMI experience was great, but that might be because it was devoid of actors and irrelevant questions. Before the interview started, we were informed that each each station/interview had a specific theme and we would be sitting with either a student, administrator, or faculty member. The question/situation was posted on the door of the interview room (we were in a hallway and moved from room to room) and we were given 2 minutes to read over and collect our thoughts before starting. We then had 8 minutes to discuss the question/situation, and while not necessarily clinically relevant i.e. a specific patient encounter, the questions/situations were thought provoking and broached topics that were relevant professionally (I can expound on the actual topics, but I want to keep this post somewhat short). In addition, we also had a "double" station that was a full 20 minutes which was basically a traditional interview with the exception that it was closed file.

I thought this was a rather effective way of interviewing without making the MMI silly. It still had the "speed dating" feel, but I felt that I had ample time to show how I approach things. It was also nice to have the ability to shake off a poor interview (if you felt that way), and get to start fresh with a new topic and new interviewer. Overall, I just felt it was a better interviewing model that the traditional interview.

This is interesting. Looking back, I feel that the quality of MMIs varied wildly by school. If schools can create a more natural/conversational environment but have specific and relevant, thought-provoking questions under some set time limit, then we've essentially reached a hybrid between a more reasonable MMI and "speed-dating" interviews. Perhaps this can work.
 
The main issue is that everything correlates with parental income including life expectancy, overall health, and later financial success in life. Using that logic you can discount everything because it "correlates with parental income." Whether or not a potential boost should be given to applicants because of their ability and determination to overcome extraordinary adversity is another issue altogether but no exam should be discounted purely on those grounds.
Thank you. Exactly.
 
This is interesting. Looking back, I feel that the quality of MMIs varied wildly by school. If schools can create a more natural/conversational environment but have specific and relevant, thought-provoking questions under some set time limit, then we've essentially reached a hybrid between a more reasonable MMI and "speed-dating" interviews. Perhaps this can work.
The MMI can also be gamed as well. There are books and other resources on how to do well on the MMI.
 
Incorrect, I am not discounting their efforts. Everyone works hard for their life (hopefully). I'm just presenting the data that exists and how the AAMC justifies the SES that you also say you want expanded.

Numbers are numbers, I'm sorry. =)

I agree but I think that there's a way to value extremely high numbers and be mindful of SES. For example, if someone has a 3.7 and 34-35 but grew up with a single mom and a family income of 20K I would personally interview them if I were on Wash U's admissions committee, even though their averages are 3.85/38. You need to have high standards, but perhaps account for that "wow" factor when you see reasonable numbers and an inspiring rise from the bottom. Started from the bottom now we here, nah mean?
 
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