Reverse Discrimination in Admissions Process?

[ArmoredTooth]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

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[cowsgomoo]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

It depends on when your friend applied.

 

[JavadiCavity]

In reality, adcoms are made up of regular people who have personal biases. Most of the time, those biases are harmless. Even the ones that exclude people for race, gender, etc. It happens without those people even knowing it, and if they did know it, I'm sure they'd correct themselves.

While I despise racism/discrimination against other people, I despise more the attitude of some people who use discrimination to blame something or someone else for their misfortune. There is a gal in my class that plays the race card often. We also just watched a diversity video that was intended to open our eyes to the discimination all around us. It was terrible. They found students in the school who shared experiences with us that were supposed to illustrate how pervasive discrimination is even in the 21st century. Instead, all the video communicated was that a lot people are too immature to deal with real life and want to blame racism anytime something bad happens...even if they aren't really threatened by it directly.

Your friend was probably not the victim of reverse discrimination (which is a ridiculous term anyway). His scores aren't terrible, but they aren't that competitive either. Furthermore, admissions is heavily dependent on DAT scores and GPA, but it is also strongly influenced by background, timeliness of application, and an evaluated eagerness to work in the dental profession.

 

[martinelli]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

I am a little bit shocked that someone actually thinks that his race has something to do with his application. But then, maybe that's b/c I'm from Seattle. Armoredtooth, I am PRETTY sure that your friend not getting into dental school has NOTHING to do with his being white. There are many, many factors that adcoms use to weigh an applicant's competitiveness. His GPA is definitely very competitive for dental school; and I don't care how competitive it is this cycle, a 3.92 GPA will definitely get you into a few places. Has he looked over his application yet? Did he have someone critique his personal statement before he send it out? Most importantly, when did he submit his app? And did he call each school to verify that they have all that need from him? Did he made sure that all his recommenders had something nice to say about him? Sometimes even getting one bad LOR could be disastrous to your application. Did he even do any of these things before declaring that it is solely his race that had hindered him from getting accepted?
It is true that dental profession is much more diverse than it was even 10 years ago, but to say that being a white male would somehow affect your chances really show a lack of maturity on his part.
And as for why there are more women and minority in the profession? There is only really one simple explanation; because there are more women and minority out there applying to dental schools than in the past.

As for you, my friend; I can asure you that your being an Asian male won't increase or decrease your chances of getting into dental school either. Just because there are loads of Asians applying to dental schools nowadays doesn't mean that adcoms will consciously or subconciously try to weed/eliminate us from their schools--just look at UCSF, BU, NYU, USC; there are loads of Asians at these schools. Also, at a school like UW (the school I'm attending), the Asian percentage is approaching the 20% mark and Asians only made up 3-5% in the state of WA So, let's not bring out the race cards too quickly eh! Just tend over your GPA, DAT scores, volunteer and shadowing hours and you WILL be fine.

 

[martinelli]

We also just watched a diversity video that was intended to open our eyes to the discimination all around us. It was terrible. They found students in the school who shared experiences with us that were supposed to illustrate how pervasive discrimination is even in the 21st century. Instead, all the video communicated was that a lot people are too immature to deal with real life and want to blame racism anytime something bad happens...even if they aren't really threatened by it directly.

I feel you on this one JavadiCavity. These kinds of "educational" materials are absolutely terrible with a capital T. It teaches our young minds to seek a scapegoat to our personal problems. Before anyone jump their guns though, please know that I absolutely do acknowledge that racial discrimination still exist in our society. I just don't believe that teaching our kids to blame their ethnicity as the sole explanation for their social conditions is an effective way of helping them overcome these conditions.

 

[PickMe]

i think that his race may have played a role in his application, but was not the only reason for his rejection. one of the dentists i shadowed felt strongly that a lot of white male applicants werent getting in and they deserved to, so i dont think you are out of line thinking that this may have happened in your friends case. the dental schools want a well rounded class, so that might explain why people with lower scores may have gotten in instead of him. his GPA is very high and in my opinion should outweigh his (maybe a bit better than) average dat score. if he could raise his dat score for the next cycle and apply really early, i think he'd have a better shot of getting in.

 

[martinelli]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

So wait, are you an Asian male? I thought at first but maybe I'm wrong. In any case, your friend will guarantee a spot at a good school if he retakes his DAT and score above 19 or 20 overall. Also, he should really look into getting other LOR's. I just can't believe that even with some 17 and 18 scores and a 3.92 GPA, he is not getting in anywhere. Hey, was he invited for interviews?

 

[golfmontpoker]

i think that his race may have played a role in his application, but was not the only reason for his rejection. one of the dentists i shadowed felt strongly that a lot of white male applicants werent getting in and they deserved to, so i dont think you are out of line thinking that this may have happened in your friends case. the dental schools want a well rounded class, so that might explain why people with lower scores may have gotten in instead of him. his GPA is very high and in my opinion should outweigh his (maybe a bit better than) average dat score. if he could raise his dat score for the next cycle and apply really early, i think he'd have a better shot of getting in.

Jeez guys, you are making me loose all hope with this talk about 3.9's and an 18 on the dat not being competitive enough! and being white?! ARGH now im getting scared

 

[SuperTrooper]

We also just watched a diversity video that was intended to open our eyes to the discimination all around us. It was terrible. They found students in the school who shared experiences with us that were supposed to illustrate how pervasive discrimination is even in the 21st century. Instead, all the video communicated was that a lot people are too immature to deal with real life and want to blame racism anytime something bad happens...even if they aren't really threatened by it directly.

I think it's funny that this is pretty much your only contribution to SDN in over two weeks, and you're apparently a moderator. This is what happens when mormons are put in charge of entire subsections of SDN.

I haven't seen this video, but seriously, get lost you jacka$s.

 

[galangvu]

Jeez guys, you are making me loose all hope with this talk about 3.9's and an 18 on the dat not being competitive enough! and being white?! ARGH now im getting scared

dont worry, i got in with a 3.6 gpa and 18AA/17PAT. get some experience in a dental office with some shadowing and assisting hours and you should be fine.

As for the whole discrimination thing.... yea... i fall under a semi-minority status. Asian female. but i have crazy amount of hours in a dental office (3 years) and your friend has great scores that i would have died for, but its not the only thing that gets you in. Your friend could simply call the school that he didn't get into and ask them "why?" and if there's anything he could do to improve his application. Pulling out a "majority discrimination" card is pretty cheap.

 

[Sprgrover]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester....However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him...

There's more to an application than just numbers: what were your friend's LOR's like, what did he write in his personal statement (the importance of which should never be overlooked) and how did he go about promoting himself therein, how did he come across in interviews? These are some questions and areas that can either make or break an applicant and his/her chances at a school.

Please don't base your chances as well has what to expect during the admissions process on what your friend has undergone. If you get your ducks in a row, obtain some good LOR's and are a personable individual it will be smooth sailing ahead for you.

 

[mcshow2]

Super trooper.... a little harsh don't ya think?

Other guy: Did your friend not get in anywhere or did just a couple schools reject him? I think it's just the way things go, you can't guess what these adcoms want. I had similar gpa and better DAT than your bud and got one acceptance, 2 withdrawals, 3 rejections, and 2 no decisions.

I am a white male, but i don't think that had anything to do with it.

I have done a lot of thinking about this isssue, and unfortunately with our very racist past (i do think things are a lot better) the race factor will always be an issue. Someone is always going to feel slighted.

But you still ultimately have control over your life. You can chose the world you want to live in. To reiterate what most people have said on this board, if you have a little bit of an uphill battle, you better get a running start and attack the hill as hard as you can.

 

[CSade469]

dont worry, i got in with a 3.6 gpa and 18AA/17PAT. get some experience in a dental office with some shadowing and assisting hours and you should be fine.

As for the whole discrimination thing.... yea... i fall under a semi-minority status. Asian female. but i have crazy amount of hours in a dental office (3 years) and your friend has great scores that i would have died for, but its not the only thing that gets you in. Your friend could simply call the school that he didn't get into and ask them "why?" and if there's anything he could do to improve his application. Pulling out a "majority discrimination" card is pretty cheap.

I totally agree on what you are saying, especially this year is the most competitive year for getting into dental school. I have worked as a dental assistant since i was in HS my junior year as part of an intership with the technical center. All through out college i have worked in the dental field, so that is about 9 years of experience, and I am a minority who did not get into dental school this year. So number one its not all about your stats, its not all about experience, dental schools look for alot of things, and it also depends on what school you apply to. So i think your friend should call the school and ask why he/she didn't get in, and also ask what can i do to improve my application for the next cycle. But pulling the race card.. come on.. thats a pretty cheap shot.

 

[bkwash]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

Yeah I am going to have to stick with the general consensus of the board. A number of things could have affected "your friend" not getting into d school

1. when he applied
2. his AADSAS app.
3. what schools he applied to
4.<if he had> interviews how he conducted himself

It sounds like he felt like he was "owed" admission to dental school b/c of his high stats...thats not the case, and this theme could have permeated all throughout his entire process.

 

[JavadiCavity]

I think it's funny that this is pretty much your only contribution to SDN in over two weeks, and you're apparently a moderator. This is what happens when mormons are put in charge of entire subsections of SDN.

I haven't seen this video, but seriously, get lost you jacka$s.

Please keep your comments on topic. If you feel like railing on me, send me a PM. I moderate everyday. I add comments when appropriate. But, thanks for looking out for me. Nice to know someone is checking to see what I'm up to.

 

[hellOKiTTyrox]

I am a little bit shocked that someone actually thinks that his race has something to do with his application. But then, maybe that's b/c I'm from Seattle. Armoredtooth, I am PRETTY sure that your friend not getting into dental school has NOTHING to do with his being white.

ok 2 ideas.
Let's say you are AA or Native American. Are you really going to claim this has no effect on your app???

Another situation. We had 10 white males. All have a 3.9 GPA. 20 DAT. Then we have 2 Asian people. 3.5 GPA. 18 DAT. All have equal ECs and LoRs. Well, since for this game we are going to be blind to race, are you telling me, that if they had to select 10 people, the class would be 10 white guys ? (based on superior numbers, all other things equal)
Is there not the slightest possibility of some admissions person saying "Hm..let's maintain diversity here. It seems we have met a "quota" (so to speak) for white people." Does race not influence the need for diversity?

There are many, many factors that adcoms use to weigh an applicant's competitiveness. His GPA is definitely very competitive for dental school; and I don't care how competitive it is this cycle, a 3.92 GPA will definitely get you into a few places. Has he looked over his application yet? Did he have someone critique his personal statement before he send it out? Most importantly, when did he submit his app? And did he call each school to verify that they have all that need from him? Did he made sure that all his recommenders had something nice to say about him? Sometimes even getting one bad LOR could be disastrous to your application. Did he even do any of these things before declaring that it is solely his race that had hindered him from getting accepted?
It is true that dental profession is much more diverse than it was even 10 years ago, but to say that being a white male would somehow affect your chances really show a lack of maturity on his part.
And as for why there are more women and minority in the profession? There is only really one simple explanation; because there are more women and minority out there applying to dental schools than in the past.

Again, here you are forgetting the white guys. Yes, more minorities and women are applying. However, an even greater number of white males are applying. Doesn't this imply a skyrocketing of white male acceptances? but is that the case?

As for you, my friend; I can asure you that your being an Asian male won't increase or decrease your chances of getting into dental school either. Just because there are loads of Asians applying to dental schools nowadays doesn't mean that adcoms will consciously or subconciously try to weed/eliminate us from their schools--just look at UCSF, BU, NYU, USC; there are loads of Asians at these schools. Also, at a school like UW (the school I'm attending), the Asian percentage is approaching the 20% mark and Asians only made up 3-5% in the state of WA So, let's not bring out the race cards too quickly eh! Just tend over your GPA, DAT scores, volunteer and shadowing hours and you WILL be fine.

last remark, i promise. Here you are saying being Asian doesn't affect chances? What if 100 Asians apply to UCSF, all have 4.0. all same EC, LoR. Are all 100 getting in? Wouldn't an adcom say "hm..so many qualified Asians, but why don't we save room for those who need a chance? Why don't we admit 50 Asians, and leave 50 seats for some white and AA students;.." but No, according to your utopia, this doesn't happen.

-fin

 

[OrinScrivello]

As a white male who has been interviewed at four (4) different high-status schools, allow me to retort. I was the only white male at any of my interviews. The breakdown of the other interviewees was --loosely-- as follows: 40% Asian male, 50% Asian female, 9.9% Hispanic female, 0.1% (me and a white female). If this doesn't make you a bit suspicious, then... whatever.

Oh yeah, my DAT was well over 22 and my GPA over 3.1

 

[mr_gestapito]

Okay, here's my line: 2.67 Cum. GPA, 3.47 Science GPA, 18 on the DAT (sorry I don't remember the specifics) and I am a white male just finishing my first year at Temple. So my first point, getting in is somewhat of a crap shoot. Adcoms at every school admit different people for different reasons, in my case my LOR's or personal statement must have got their attention, or I was just very, very lucky. Schools see lots of numbers that they like, you need to set yourself apart in some other way.

On the topic of "reverse racism"?? Is this implying that only whites are capable of racism and any such activity directed back towards them must be "reverse racism." That being said, race played little if any into his being denied admission.

As far as racism, racism will always exist as long as there are ignorant people in this Country. It is naive to believe that racism can be eliminated through affirmative action or other legislation in a Country that didn't even begin attempting to integrate its schools until about fifty years ago. Thoroughly engrained attitudes and beliefs no matter how illogical die hard slow deaths. Unfortunately, it will take more than a couple of generations to change people's attitudes on race. As highly educated members of society it is our responibility to not succumb to the destructiveness of racism, let alone use it as an excuse.

 

[superchris147]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

if he had at least a 20 academic average on his DAT i'd understand, but plz those scores nowadays arn't competitive, they are average or slightly above average. bottom line is that d. school is hard to get into, if he has almost a 4.0 gpa then he should be getting at least 20's on the DAT or his undergrad school blows balls

don't blame mediocre scores and not getting into a school on race plz

 

[bluejellybelly]

As a white male who has been interviewed at four (4) different high-status schools, allow me to retort. I was the only white male at any of my interviews. The breakdown of the other interviewees was --loosely-- as follows: 40% Asian male, 50% Asian female, 9.9% Hispanic female, 0.1% (me and a white female). If this doesn't make you a bit suspicious, then... whatever.

Oh yeah, my DAT was well over 22 and my GPA over 3.1

Suspicious of what? That they somehow had an advantage over you?

You sound like you think that a large percentage of minorities would threaten your chances of acceptance. Heck, if you're so confident and you believe you deserve to be accepted, you shouldn't have to feel suspicious about the breakdown of the interviewed students.

 

[xylashellx]

As a white male who has been interviewed at four (4) different high-status schools, allow me to retort. I was the only white male at any of my interviews. The breakdown of the other interviewees was --loosely-- as follows: 40% Asian male, 50% Asian female, 9.9% Hispanic female, 0.1% (me and a white female). If this doesn't make you a bit suspicious, then... whatever.

Oh yeah, my DAT was well over 22 and my GPA over 3.1

me too. the only time where there were alot of white males with me was at UNLV and then i was still a minority because everyone was LDS (mormon). i definately agree that it has some effect on applying...otherwise why would they ask.

another thing...why dont they have european american in the checklist. i am not simply white... one of my parents and all of my grandparents are from europe. so now i am put in the white male catagory just because im not hispanic, asain, african american, native american, etc.

i am highly against racism but i think that race should have nothing to do with anything in dental school. it shouldnt be asked period. they should look at stats and GPA and LORs, etc and that is it. if they dont want racism to occur then stop making it a factor. good luck everyone of everyrace and background

 

[ArmoredTooth]

Hey guys,

LOL! I actually happened to have met my pre-health advisor (who's actually a ***** who knows jack about dental school admissions because this is is first year, and he only cares about helping pre-med students since they outnumber me) this morning.

He said he wanted to talk to me to set up an interview in order for him to write me a pre-health committee letter of recommendation.

After getting that all set, he then proceeded to tell me some "interesting" trends in dental school admission. My white male friend actually complained to that pre-health advisor about "reverse discrimination" in dental school admissions, and the freakin' advisor bought into my friend's argument! I don't know when my friend met the advisor, but it sure must have been recently.

Anyhow, the advisor goes on to tell me that there's reverse discrimination in the admissions process, so by me being Asian-American, I will have an easy chance of getting into dental school.

I was like "WTF?!!" I then told him he's wrong because there are a lot of AAs applying to dental school with high GPAs and high DAT scores, so AAs aren't really helped by his affirmative action "assumption."

In fact I have an excerpt from his email message he's sent me yesterday morning prior to the meeting:

[quote = "dumb prehealth advisor"]Also, we need to talk about the upcoming oral interview with the Pre-Health
Committee and when we can schedule the "get together".

Lastly, we need to discuss some very interesting dental school admission's
trends...as there are some obvious reverse discrimination trends in dental school admissions.
[/quote]

 

[ArmoredTooth]

So wait, are you an Asian male?

Yes I am, mixed Korean and Japanese to be specific.

I thought at first but maybe I'm wrong. In any case, your friend will guarantee a spot at a good school if he retakes his DAT and score above 19 or 20 overall. Also, he should really look into getting other LOR's. I just can't believe that even with some 17 and 18 scores and a 3.92 GPA, he is not getting in anywhere. Hey, was he invited for interviews?

Nope, NO interviews at all. He only got a lot of letters of rejection during early January and late December.

He even called some of the dental schools' admission office, and they simply gave him vague answers such as "oh, this year was very competitive, you gotta understand that."

But damn, I'd expect at least ONE dental school to at least call him for an interview.

 

[ArmoredTooth]

Yeah I am going to have to stick with the general consensus of the board. A number of things could have affected "your friend" not getting into d school

1. when he applied
2. his AADSAS app.
3. what schools he applied to
4.<if he had> interviews how he conducted himself

It sounds like he felt like he was "owed" admission to dental school b/c of his high stats...thats not the case, and this theme could have permeated all throughout his entire process.

You're right bkwash. I think he submitted his AADSAS application in September, which is very late.

He applied to Alabama, Marquete, Arizona, UoP, Temple, Tufts, Creighton, UM-Kansas City, Texas San Antonio, UPenn, UNLV and Tennessee.

His argument was that there were some students who got accepted to dental school with lower GPAs, lower DAT test scores than his scores. I don't know whether he was looking at the statistics two years ago, but I don't know how in the world he'd get this year's stat!

Yes, he probably did have an attitude problem of thinking he's "owed" a position in dental school simply because of his high GPA.

 

[bluejellybelly]

In fact I have an excerpt from his email message he's sent me yesterday morning prior to the meeting:

Yeah, that email's BS. If 50% of Dental school X is asian (which, most on the east coast are) that doesn't tell me there's desperate need for diversity. If you're not black, hispanic, native american or some other latino/puerto rican race, you're not considered in affirmative action. You tell him he's a little outdated on what it means.

And oh yeah, obviously if 50% of a school is comprised of minorities, I'm sure they had just as competitive stats as anyone else NOT included in affirmative action. So don't you listen- if you get in, its because you deserved to because of your stats, your service, or your interview, your date of application submission, etc. Don't let your "friend" feel bad he couldn't get in- it almost sounds like he's just trying to blame his rejection on others who, in reality, have no added advantages.

 

[bluejellybelly]

On the topic of "reverse racism"?? Is this implying that only whites are capable of racism and any such activity directed back towards them must be "reverse racism." That being said, race played little if any into his being denied admission.

As far as racism, racism will always exist as long as there are ignorant people in this Country. It is naive to believe that racism can be eliminated through affirmative action or other legislation in a Country that didn't even begin attempting to integrate its schools until about fifty years ago. Thoroughly engrained attitudes and beliefs no matter how illogical die hard slow deaths. Unfortunately, it will take more than a couple of generations to change people's attitudes on race. As highly educated members of society it is our responibility to not succumb to the destructiveness of racism, let alone use it as an excuse.

That's one of the best posts I've heard. It's true; affirmative action doesn't eliminate racism or make things "equal".

 

[crazy_sherm]

You're right bkwash. I think he submitted his AADSAS application in September, which is very late.

He applied to Alabama, Marquete, Arizona, UoP, Temple, Tufts, Creighton, UM-Kansas City, Texas San Antonio, UPenn, UNLV and Tennessee.

September is on the late side, but not for a strong applicant. However, your friend has a huge discrepancy between his GPA and his DAT performance. What kind of message do you think that sends to the Adcom? A couple possibilities could be that his undergrad was way too easy, he didn't bother to prepare for the DAT, or he wasn't taking the application process seriously. A 17 on RC? That's pretty sad for someone who claims to have close to a 4.0.

Also, he should have done his homework a little better on which schools to apply. I can't imagine him being a resident of both Alabama AND Texas, so why bother applying to both schools? They accept next to no out-of-state residents. He had 0 chance at UOP, UPenn, and Tufts since his DAT was way below the average.

I'm sure there must be more to his application than what has been stated, but in the end, something about him just didn't impress them on paper to even bother with an interview. He can try to blame it on being a white male, but more than likely, it's because his app sucked and he turned it in late. There's no lack of white males in dentistry, if I go to the cafe at school and threw 10 rocks, 9 of them would probably hit some white dude in the head.

 

[backaction]

if he had at least a 20 academic average on his DAT i'd understand, but plz those scores nowadays arn't competitive, they are average or slightly above average. bottom line is that d. school is hard to get into, if he has almost a 4.0 gpa then he should be getting at least 20's on the DAT or his undergrad school blows balls

don't blame mediocre scores and not getting into a school on race plz

Totally agree. Race may play a role sometimes (bias is inherent in humans), but not in this case. Those DAT scores are mediocre. There are lots of people that get rejected with 18-19 DATs all the time. I had a 21 and got rejected from lots of schools. This person is barking up the wrong tree. And if you have close to a 4.0 how could you not get at least a 20?? Ok, if you showed up drunk, maybe

 

[S Files]

Okay, here's my line: 2.67 Cum. GPA, 3.47 Science GPA, 18 on the DAT (sorry I don't remember the specifics) and I am a white male just finishing my first year at Temple. So my first point, getting in is somewhat of a crap shoot. Adcoms at every school admit different people for different reasons, in my case my LOR's or personal statement must have got their attention, or I was just very, very lucky. Schools see lots of numbers that they like, you need to set yourself apart in some other way.

On the topic of "reverse racism"?? Is this implying that only whites are capable of racism and any such activity directed back towards them must be "reverse racism." That being said, race played little if any into his being denied admission.

As far as racism, racism will always exist as long as there are ignorant people in this Country. It is naive to believe that racism can be eliminated through affirmative action or other legislation in a Country that didn't even begin attempting to integrate its schools until about fifty years ago. Thoroughly engrained attitudes and beliefs no matter how illogical die hard slow deaths. Unfortunately, it will take more than a couple of generations to change people's attitudes on race. As highly educated members of society it is our responibility to not succumb to the destructiveness of racism, let alone use it as an excuse.

woooo...hold on...you got in with a 2.67??? that's horrible. No offense but i thought admissions were getting more difficult every year?? To the OP, just improve your application, or your friends or whatever and stop crying.

 

[DcS]

I am a little bit shocked that someone actually thinks that his race has something to do with his application.

Ignorance is bliss!

 

[DMDcanada]

Yeah, that email's BS. If 50% of Dental school X is asian (which, most on the east coast are) that doesn't tell me there's desperate need for diversity. If you're not black, hispanic, native american or some other latino/puerto rican race, you're not considered in affirmative action. You tell him he's a little outdated on what it means.

And oh yeah, obviously if 50% of a school is comprised of minorities, I'm sure they had just as competitive stats as anyone else NOT included in affirmative action. So don't you listen- if you get in, its because you deserved to because of your stats, your service, or your interview, your date of application submission, etc. Don't let your "friend" feel bad he couldn't get in- it almost sounds like he's just trying to blame his rejection on others who, in reality, have no added advantages.

I can tell you that my provincial schools in Canada give asboslutley no preference to any sort of ethnic group. It is all based soley on the ppl with the top highest 70 Gpa's. Plain and simple. When i asked about why they dont sit down and try to make the class diverse, they said that the usually each of their classses is diverse within those top 70ppl. By the way they also got rid of interviews to.

 

[MCGHopeful]

Who knows why he did not get in. Maybe the Adcoms were questioning his commitment to the profession and therefore were seeing if he would apply this year. As one of the other posters said, different people are admitted for different reasons.

But, I am concerned why so many folks on here think his stats are not competitive. When looking at the stats on PreDents.com, the highest average DAT is at Harvard...a 22. And, to top it off, out of the 55 dental schools in the US, only 10 have AA of 20 or higher. Also, the highest average PAT in the country is a 19.3 according to the list. Maybe I am just not reading the list correctly....which is a possibility considering I am cross-eyed after studying for the DAT most of the day

No need to discuss his grades, they are pretty stellar.

 

[mr_gestapito]

woooo...hold on...you got in with a 2.67??? that's horrible. No offense but i thought admissions were getting more difficult every year?? To the OP, just improve your application, or your friends or whatever and stop crying.

Yes I got in with a pathetic overall GPA, and yes admissions are getting tougher every year, your disbelief furthers my point that, now listen everyone, NUMBERS ARE NOT EVERYTHING. Your numbers can sometimes earn you an interview, an interview which will reveal the person behind the numbers, which for many applicants is not a good thing (otherwise there would not be so many, "look at my numbers...how did I not get in??", posts).

 

[Dentorama]

I am a little bit shocked that someone actually thinks that his race has something to do with his application.

I hate to be the one to say it, but RACE plays a VERY big roll in the application process. Notice I didn't say racism or reverse-racism (I see those as personal views specific committee members may have, but as a whole I hope they aren't creeping into the system). For example:

I am very good friends with the dean of admissions at my number one choice school (where I did not get accepted). I met with him after my rejection to see what I could change in my app. and he said, "The committee loved your application. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Your stats are great. There is nothing you could have done differently or better. The only reason you did not get in is because you are not diverse. There were just too many white males applying to this school this round and we can only accept so many."

Experience #2: I was paid $40 an hour to tutor a 50% Native American female applying to pharmacy school by the actual pharmacy school before she was even accepted (or before she had even applied for that matter). Yes, the pharmacy school paid me to make sure she got a C in the class so she could get in. Why? Because there was a very low % of Native Americans at this particular school. This is not speculation, this is what they told me.

So someone tell me how race has nothing to do with it. I'm not sure whether or not I agree or disagree with the way race is handled, but I do see their reasons in selecting a diverse class. Who wants to be in a class with 100 white males who all got 24 DAT and had a 3.9 GPA.

A lot of state dental schools attempt to accept a class which is as racially diverse as the population itself. For example if the pop. is 75% white and 25% Hispanic, they try to get the same % in their incoming class. They also try to get students from each county in order to distribute dentists throughout the state instead of packing them all in to the same space.

What does this mean? It means that there might be some variance to the stats of who gets accepted. It also means that there are lots of people out there who have great stats who probably should get in who don't. And I hate to be the one to say it, but it also means that there might be some people out there who won't make as good a dentist as the ones who were rejected.

After saying all this, if you look at the big picture, it all makes sense. A state school has to do what is best for the state as a whole, and not what's best for your one friend who has a 20 DAT and 3.8 GPA. Our society as a whole does better if diversity exists in any niche. It's just hard to see that when you work so hard for something individually and don't reap the rewards.

To sum it up, it's not racism, it's not reverse-racism, it's simply a game of numbers.

 

[netsn06]

i think we can look at the role of race in the dental profession in a different light. what is the reason schools strive for diversity? primarily i believe it is because dentists from low-income communities are more likely to serve those areas in the future. dentists who are part of an under-represented minority are more likely, in the future, to serve that minority, which is more in need of the service than most "majority" demographics.

if u look at it this way, being an urm is an advantage, an asset, as a dental student in your school. much the same way that ad coms like to see that an applicant is dedicated, or shows upward improvement in their gpa, has sufficient shadowing experience, or has a wealth of life-experiences that are valuable as a dental student, ad coms may value a student's propensity to give back to needy communities. albeit, race may not be the major playing card for their criteria in choosing candidates, but it can still play an important role in choosing students whom they feel are good for the industry.

 

[JMan]

I think it's funny that this is pretty much your only contribution to SDN in over two weeks, and you're apparently a moderator. This is what happens when mormons are put in charge of entire subsections of SDN.

I haven't seen this video, but seriously, get lost you jacka$s.

"I think it's funny that this is pretty much your only contribution to SDN in over two weeks, and you're apparently a moderator. This is what happens when blacks are put in charge of entire subsections of SDN.

I haven't seen this video, but seriously, get lost you jacka$s"

It's kind of shocking when you change one word, isn't it.

Its funny how racial bigotry is not tolerated but some how religious bigotry is.

 

[L8DYV]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

Armoured tooth, I agree with the previous posters...those stats show huge discrepencies between his gpa and test score. Scoring in the 20s puts you immediately in the upwards 90th percentiles. So he should have hit 20 and aboves in all sections! So I don't think race is the issue...

 

[nnjh]

My friend (he's a white male) has applied to a lot of dental schools for this fall's semester.

He has a very high overall GPA, 3.92, and a very high science GPA of 3.87.

And as for his DAT score, he got an 18 for Quant Analysis, 19 for OChem, 19 for Biology, 18 for Gen Chem, 17 for reading comp and a 20 for PAT. His overall AA score was in the 18-19 range. I would expect that to be a great score, although it's not a 22+ score.

However, a lot of dental schools have rejected him, and he's very depressed right now. He's pissed because some of the applicants who got accepted to dental schools he's applied to had lower GPA and DAT test scores than him.

I'm asking this question because I fall into a minority group that tends to score high on the DAT and have high GPA, don't want to be rejected by a lot of dental schools and waste my time and money. My pre-health advisor said that I have an "advantage", but a lot of my other friends (they're Asian males) who applied for this fall also didn't get accepted to any dental school.

On the other hand, I've notice that females and other minority groups have an easier chance of getting into dental school?

Just his low DAT score alone guarantees rejection from the likes of harvard/columbia/upenn/uconn/ucla and the like. His gpa might be good but if he attended a low caliber school or worse a community college many schools will look down upon it.

 

[martinelli]

Ignorance is bliss!

True that. And thinking that he didn't get in has EVERYTHING to do with his being white is probably the brightest hypothesis under this side of the moon

 

[PegaNinguem]

IMHO, I got jilted at my state school for being a confident guy. I expressed my dissapointment with the dean of admissions and the dean, but trying to work with an ad"com" is like asking a magician for his tricks. The dean of admissions tried to spin an explanation for my rejection, but we all know pre-dents don't live in a vacuum, and several people I know, including minority and female, were waitlisted/accepted with relatively poor statistics.

On a tangent, some of my friends who have graduated school already had complained to me about several (but not all of course) instances of girls who were solely interested in getting a dental degree, but not working. They say that this came straight from the horses' mouths.

Those are the breaks though... Useless to blame others, more practical to focus on success regardless of circumstances. If you're not competitive in grades, get better grades. If you're a white male trying to get into a diverse dental school, you gotta sell yourself better than the other white males. If you're upset that some people are in dental school and don't want to work afterwards, then find consolation that there will be that much less a supply of dentists.

 

[PreDentalGuy29]

My boy here got discriminated against this cycle too

 

[bigsilvo]

September is on the late side, but not for a strong applicant. However, your friend has a huge discrepancy between his GPA and his DAT performance. What kind of message do you think that sends to the Adcom? A couple possibilities could be that his undergrad was way too easy, he didn't bother to prepare for the DAT, or he wasn't taking the application process seriously. A 17 on RC? That's pretty sad for someone who claims to have close to a 4.0.

Also, he should have done his homework a little better on which schools to apply. I can't imagine him being a resident of both Alabama AND Texas, so why bother applying to both schools? They accept next to no out-of-state residents. He had 0 chance at UOP, UPenn, and Tufts since his DAT was way below the average.

I'm sure there must be more to his application than what has been stated, but in the end, something about him just didn't impress them on paper to even bother with an interview. He can try to blame it on being a white male, but more than likely, it's because his app sucked and he turned it in late. There's no lack of white males in dentistry, if I go to the cafe at school and threw 10 rocks, 9 of them would probably hit some white dude in the head.

Well you're a pretty good shot, I would've looked into the NFL if I was you!!

 

[food4thots]

if only all patients can open their mouths that wide, it would make our jobs easier.

 

[sumozmom]

me too. the only time where there were alot of white males with me was at UNLV and then i was still a minority because everyone was LDS (mormon). i definately agree that it has some effect on applying...otherwise why would they ask.

another thing...why dont they have european american in the checklist. i am not simply white... one of my parents and all of my grandparents are from europe. so now i am put in the white male catagory just because im not hispanic, asain, african american, native american, etc.

i am highly against racism but i think that race should have nothing to do with anything in dental school. it shouldnt be asked period. they should look at stats and GPA and LORs, etc and that is it. if they dont want racism to occur then stop making it a factor. good luck everyone of everyrace and background

yes me too....I was born in europe...maybe they need to have a Mediterranian catagory

 

[aggie-master]

yes me too....I was born in europe...maybe they need to have a Mediterranian catagory

What country does your family come from?

If they came from Spain, I'd just put hispanic as my ethnicity.

Technically, we count new people from Spain as white, but if you have 100% Spanish ancestry and your family came to America a long time ago you are considered "hispanic". It makes no sense, but I'm hoping that I'll benefit from the URM favoritism when my application is getting reviewed.

 

[sumozmom]

What country does your family come from?

If they came from Spain, I'd just put hispanic as my ethnicity.

Technically, we count new people from Spain as white, but if you have 100% Spanish ancestry and your family came to America a long time ago you are considered "hispanic". It makes no sense, but I'm hoping that I'll benefit from the URM favoritism when my application is getting reviewed.

Romanina---

 

[leia05]

You're right bkwash. I think he submitted his AADSAS application in September, which is very late.

He applied to Alabama, Marquete, Arizona, UoP, Temple, Tufts, Creighton, UM-Kansas City, Texas San Antonio, UPenn, UNLV and Tennessee.

His argument was that there were some students who got accepted to dental school with lower GPAs, lower DAT test scores than his scores. I don't know whether he was looking at the statistics two years ago, but I don't know how in the world he'd get this year's stat!

Yes, he probably did have an attitude problem of thinking he's "owed" a position in dental school simply because of his high GPA.

ok...i can't speak for the other schools but here's a breakdown of my experience with U of TN just to show you what i guess they look for... i'm considered out of state and am a white female of a somewhat blue collar background...meaning i needed to stand out a bit to increase my acceptance chances. i graduated with a biology degree, gpa of 3.84. my DAT wasn't incredibly high since i didn't study as much as i needed to (hey...i was busy and wanted to see what i could do just based on my college education) but i managed to get a 19 AA and 16 PAT (yeah...shoulda studied). what probably helped me there was that i got a nearly perfect reading comp score. they like to see that because it means you're teachable...that you're capable of absorbing the material they give you--least that's what i figure, i could be wrong. ok..that's my academic side. i'm a fairly well-rounded individual in that i do more than academics. i actively participated in a few clubs at my college and did some volunteering with those, being an officer in one or two of them. i was on our tennis team and also have several artistic interests as my hobbies. besides all that, i worked 16 hrs/wk all four years of college and was involved in a research project (my school's idea...needed it to graduate). i also managed to get in some shadowing time at a variety of local dental offices (general, pediatric, oral surgery, etc.) after i graduated. i also logged in over 300 hours of volunteering at a dental clinic during my internship. i had several people look over my admissions essay just to make sure it had a fair represenation of who i am as a person--i put some humor in it too...essays are boring to read so i spiced it up a bit ummm...oh yeah...the TN admissions council also knew some of the dentists i shadowed as well as the one with whom i interned--which i'm sure REALLY helped! that's basically my story but i know a lot of you can blow me outta the water easily with your own! so is your friend pretty diverse with his interests or is academia his life? how personable is he? how much effort did he put into his essay--that's their chance before interviews to get a feel for who you are so make it count! how much dental experience does he have? the more you have the better i've heard...i can testify to that since that's one reason i was told i didn't get in at MS the first time (got in the 2nd). anyways...i gotta get back to work

 

[MyAegdSUX]

Being a white male is a crime!

That is why you have to have higher LSAT/ MCAT and DAT scores to get into schools.

 

[Mysteree]

I might be shooting in the dark here, but you said that your friend acted like he was"owed" a spot, well if that attitude came across in the interview. Then guess what? They won't be offering him a spot. I also think that being a woman or a minority alone is not enough to get you into dental school. I don't think they weed people out at first glance by their sex, and race. I agree w/the others that though your friend had a great GPA, his DAT scores weren't amazing, and he certainly applied pretty late. There are plenty of people on here, that have the same GPA and much higher DAT scores, who applied late like him and are still waiting for an acceptance. You mentioned that he knows others w/ lower stats who've gotten in, my guess is that these people applied very early. I say that, because I too have noticed that people with stats that are, not so impressive got accepted to good schools because they applied in May or June. So timing is a major factor. He can try and blame others for getting in...but I think this process is quite arbitrary, maybe they liked someone elses personal statement more and decide to offer them an interview..who knows..I just feel this process is not all that hard and fast. Nothing can guarantee a spot, the only thing that really matters is applying early, cause sometimes even those w/great stats never get off the bench if they applied even a little late.

 

[vaio]

Being a white male is a crime!

That is why you have to have higher LSAT/ MCAT and DAT scores to get into schools.

yeah right ... thats a load of bull