Rheumatology $$

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drboris

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How come Rheumatologists don't make much more than internists if rheumatologists can perform: cortisone injections, and other drug (DMARDs) injections?

Do insure companies reimburse the rheum docs for these procedures the same way oncologists get paid for chemo?

Thanks

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Hi
As a fellow medical student, would also like to know the answer to this the above poster's question. Thanks.
 
In speaking with a Rheumatologist in academia, I learned that many private practice guys are making upwards of $300K a year from using the DMARD treatments. Obviously, this is only hearsay, but he mentioned Remicade in particular and he actually spoke of these docs with disgust because he said they were using the treatments unnecessarily to make the big $$$.
 
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I have done a rheum elective and I may be able to tell you a little bit about this.

1. The docs probably see 16-18/d AT MOST.
2. a LOT of these are follow-ups for people they put on NSAID therapy.
3. a LOT of these follow-ups are for people who were on methotrxate to ask how their side effects are doing...
4. a LOT of these people require a LOT of TIME becuase they have a lot of social/psych issues going on

We probably only do 2 injections max per day. ALSO, remicade is NOT that popular (at least with the docs i worked with). There are other TNF-alpha inhibitors that you DONT need infusions for-- ie: Enbrel is home injections 1-2x/week .

They are very good at what they do! They are all intelligent people. Its just sort of the nature of the beast that it takes a lot of time to see many of these people, and that injections/infusions are actually sort of last resort.

It was a very interesting rotation though!
 
i am planning on going into rheum. the guy i've worked with (now mind you he is in a solo practice and very popular) sees about 25 pts a day. yes, NSAIDs are a big part of his treatment, esp since the cox2 guys are gone. but he does have many pts on DMARDs and many on TAIs (but he does not do iv therapy in his office...he said it was too much work and he was too busy and doing "well" to not need it). to be honest with you, you can make as much ($300K +) or as little (100K +...if that is "little" to the regular person) as you want. its up to the location of your practice and how much you want to offer to the pts (outpt iv therapy, etc). i personally find the field to be intellectually stimulating (its not all just RA) and think that there are a lot of answers yet to be discovered through research. its also a field in need...pts come from 100 miles away to see this guy...and i live in columbus, ohio...not some rheumatology mecca.
 
Hi all,

Thanks for the above posts. I looked at the Rheum professional organization, and it looks like they do not get well compensated (relatively speaking, to say other specialists) for their procedures-- any thoughts on that? Also, do they do any other procedures other than tapping and injecting joints? Do they do any of the pain procedures for painful conditions such as fibromyalgia like trigger point injections, etc? Also, as a rheum are you able to prescribe narcs for the painful rheumatic conditions-- are rheums well compensated for that? Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
 
family practice and regular internists can all do steroid injections, so that's not special for rheumatology.

infliximab infusions are rarely necessary in rheum. any rheum doctor that is making tons of money by having their patients receive infliximab infusions would seem pretty fishy to me. enbrel (sub q injections) is just as effective.

the lure of rheum shouldn't be the big $$ (cause it's not there). it should be the types of diseases, the patients, and the good lifestyle.
 
scrub monkey said:
the lure of rheum shouldn't be the big $$ (cause it's not there). it should be the types of diseases, the patients, and the good lifestyle.

Could you elaborate? I've been thinking about rheum but won't be able to do any electives in it. Although I do think that arthropathies are interesting, I'm a bit more interested in collagen vascular diseases. My impression is that there are a lot of diseases that aren't really curable but you might be able to do a lot for patients in terms of improving their quality of life. So, I got the impression that you can have fulfilling relationships with patients - but I haven't talked to any rheumatologists to get their advice yet.

Thanks 🙂
 
From what I have heard, rheum offers one of the best lifestyles of all specialties-- pretty much 9 to 5 M to F with no call, but I am a litle unclear as to how they make as much money as has been stated in some of the posts above. From what I know, it does have some procedures, namely joint injections and taps, but not much more. If anyone knows how they are able to make as much $ as is discussed above, please share your input as it would be much appreciated. thanks
 
http://www.rheumatology.org/students/index.asp?aud=stu

What is rheumatology?
Rheumatology encompasses the autoimmune diseases, arthritis, and musculoskeletal conditions. While rheumatologists are generally thought to be specialists dedicated to rheumatoid arthritis, lupus and scleroderma, we also care for patients with a wide array of systemic, inflammatory, autoimmune diseases as well as very common musculoskeletal disorders (e.g., osteoarthritis and osteoporosis) and sports-related injuries.

What does a rheumatologist do?
Rheumatologists are the ultimate physician-detectives. We are often called upon by our colleagues to help diagnose very ill patients with unusual constellations of symptoms, physical findings, and laboratory abnormalities. While some disciplines are limited in the scope of organ involvement that they encounter (e.g. the heart in cardiology), rheumatologists care for patients with a wide range of organ involvement from the musculoskeletal system alone in osteoarthritis to multisystem involvement in systemic lupus erythematosus (lupus) or vascultis.

We are also direct the therapy of patients with conditions that have, until recently, carried substantial risk for death and/or disability. The research in our field has led to discoveries of disease mechanisms that have enabled an explosion in therapeutic options, allowing us to make a substantial impact on both survival and quality of life in our patients.

While a clinical rheumatologist often functions as a consultant, he/ she also enjoys the ongoing management of patients in continuity practices. We establish long-lasting relationships with our patients, often participating in the care of multiple generations of the same family.

Some rheumatologists are physician-scientists, combining patient-care and research activities, while others have dedicated their careers to the excitement of scientific investigation. Still others are key personnel in the pharmaceutical industry and in governmental agencies.

The very nature of the field of rheumatology involves life-long learning, and rheumatologists have traditionally held leadership roles as teachers. Whether in the field of academic medicine or in community-based educational programs, rheumatologists enjoy sharing their exciting knowledge base.

What training is required to become a rheumatologist?
As career options are considered, medical students and internal medicine residents often enjoy electives in rheumatology in clinical settings and in the research laboratory. Since rheumatology is a subspecialty of internal medicine (IM) or pediatrics, IM or pediatric training is required prior to entry into a rheumatology fellowship program. Rheumatology fellowship training programs are a minimum of two years in length, with additional years to pursue research training if so desired. Upon completion of the fellowship training program, candidates are eligible to achieve board certification in both IM and rheumatology.
Why is rheumatology a highly desirable career option?
The field is on the "cutting edge" of discovery and practice...newer biologic therapies have revolutionized the care of patients with systemic inflammatory disorders.
We are experts in a field ranging from very interesting and complicated multisystem disease processes to very common conditions.
We are able to establish long-lasting relationships with our patients.
We are able to have a meaningful impact on quality-of-life issues for our patients.
We are able to achieve an excellent quality of life for ourselves and our families... practices are tailored to lifestyle choices and we have fewer emergencies in our field compared to many others!
Practice options abound...as our knowledge and treatment options expand, and as the population ages, we are in demand!
 
I don't know of any Rheumatologists that earn less than 200K but I don't know any that earn more than 300K either. You can't get rich in rheumatology even if you decide to work longer hours. Money is made in procedures and Rheumatologists don't perform many procedures on a daily basis. Yes, they may offer a significant number of types of procedures but that doesn't mean they perform a large volume of these procedures in a given day. Like others have mentioned, the bulk of their time is seeing patients for a followup visits.

This is why it's not competitive at all. In fact, many rheumatology departments are trying to foster interest in their field by offering paid internships to medical students etc. It reminds of me how Allergy/Immunology was 7 years ago. Cards, GI, Pulm and Neph can all lead to 400K + salaries if these physicians choose to work more hours. So in a way Rheumatology caps you in regards to earnings. And their patient population can be a drawback to many. Imagine having to deal with arthritic patients or patients who are sufferring from fibromyalgia. It could get depressing. These are the main reasons why Rheumatology is not competitive and why there is a shortage of Rheumatologists.

The major benefits to Rheumatology is the lifestyle and academic nature of the field. It involves cutting edge research and a lot of immunology.
 
MidwestMD23 said:
He is doing very, very well, around $350K. Takes a half day off a week. Call is great for him.

just curious what you mean by "he takes a half day off a week." do you mean the guys works 6.5 days/7 days a week?
 
MidwestMD23 said:
This is a very unbiased response since I have no desire to entertain a career in rheum. Currently, I am doing a rheum AHEC (thought it was IM) about 20 miles north of my city. The rheumatologist I am working with has been in the same multidisciplinary practice for about 25 years.

!) He sees 25-35 pts per day
2) Does around 4-6 joint injections per day
3) They have an in house xray and DEXA scans
4) One day a week is dedicating to Remicade infusions

He is doing very, very well, around $350K. Takes a half day off a week. Call is great for him. Concerning Remicade, Remicade continues to be popular since he does have a whole day filled with patients. But, he told me that really the TNF-AI that you are on is really dependent on what insurance carrier you have and what they carry. I have no insight on the specifics of the future coverage of Remicade. I do believe he can see so many patients because of the EMR that the practice has. It is phenomenal. From my standpoint, he is not your average rheumatologist. He is above the curve, but these opportunities do exist. They just hired a second rheum doc right out of fellowship to take all the new patients because he will retire in 3-5 years.

If he is doing this much, there is no way he is earning 350K. He has to be earning a lot more than that.
 
MidwestMD23 said:
Very possible. He just showed me what he collected a month, it was around 65,000. So, I figured half of that went to overhead and the rest was his take home.

That is still closer to 400,000 (390,000) than 350,000. I wouldn't be suprised if he is earning a little more than 400K
 
I'd like to bump this thread and stimulate some discussion. I am currently doing my Rheum elective and think the speciality is very interesting, particulary the collagen vascular disorders. RA/OA, is alright. I've learned a great deal about FM and have a new-found respect.
Here is my issue, the attending I'm with (though exceptional) only sees 10 patients a day. He spends 1hr with each patient and is very slow. I like fostering relationships with patients and this is what initally attracted me to this specialty, outpatient-long term based relationships, but this is too much for me and I'm finding it boring!
Can we please get some perspectives out there?
 
I'd like to bump this thread and stimulate some discussion. I am currently doing my Rheum elective and think the speciality is very interesting, particulary the collagen vascular disorders. RA/OA, is alright. I've learned a great deal about FM and have a new-found respect.
Here is my issue, the attending I'm with (though exceptional) only sees 10 patients a day. He spends 1hr with each patient and is very slow. I like fostering relationships with patients and this is what initally attracted me to this specialty, outpatient-long term based relationships, but this is too much for me and I'm finding it boring!
Can we please get some perspectives out there?

The rheumatologists I work with have a very different practice than this. a community based group of four has a very busy service. Each one can see up to 25 or 30 patients in a given day. New patients get 45 minutes but others do not unless they are very ill or complicated.
I love Rheumatololgy and plan to do a fellowship after my IM residency. But in this as with any other specialty, while the interesting stuff is very interesting (I really like the vasculitic diseases), you better be comfortable with the 'bread and butter' of the specialty and not too bored. For Rheum, that means lots of RA.
I like this though because in this field, there are continuous advances and each peson repsonds differently.
Bottom line, you can build a busy practice if you wish.
Hope this helps.
 
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