Ritalin abuse at your school?

[Bevo]

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I keep hearing how some of the "top" students in my class actually take ritalin and the list keeps growing every day. I know this has had to impact my grades as well that I've hard my butt to get.

I feel like its cheating, among all the other moral issues. That this like taking anabolic steroids, or loosely stealing a copy of the exam (albeit an extreme correlation). But basically, it comes down to that they're not doing the work, the pill is. And that these people are going to be doctors in the future.

Some of them are soo hooked when they dont need to be. A friend who takes way too many of them per day uses it as a crutch. Her grades were fine before ritalin, went higher with it, and when she lost her supply went back to studying without it, her grades dropped some, but were still better than most people in our class and she was still earning her A's.

The thing that's probably riled me up the most is that some of my closer friends are jumping on the bandwagon now. After we had talked about this issue on numerous occassions. So they decided to not tell me and do it behind my back. I can understand one of them needing it, as he probably does fit the description of someone who would be prescribed it normally. But the other person definatively has no reason to use it. Her grades are great as is now. When sits down to study, she sits down. And she sits down to study a lot. She has no good reason to be using it.

I understand the uses of it for people who really do need it. But the people I know who do take it, take very controlled amounts. These people take a lot more per day than they should and keep bumping the amount as they can.

In a way Im proud of the grades I've earned. Sure they might not be as high as those who abuse ritalin, but at least I know that I earned them myself and didn't need a pill to make me do what I should be doing anyways.

I thought these people were bright, but I guess I was wrong.

<--getting off of his soap box now

 

[LP1CW]

So, what you're stating is that Ritalin works to enhance cognitive ability of every person that uses it. If this was so, wouldn't it be marketed as a memory drug. Wouldn't doctors use it. Would everyone use it. Wouldn't it be the prozac of 1990.

I'm not starting medical school until this fall, but I've never heard this before. My mind works fine without drugs.

 

[just_in_time]

My cousin is in medical school and he told me that a few people in his class take prescription pain pills after big exams and stressfull weeks. Do you believe that?

 

[EctopicFetus]

LP1CW, since you arent starting med school for a couple more months I just wanted to let you in on the whole ritalin thing. It IS NOT a memory drug. However, from people I knew in undergrad who used the drug (w/o a scrip) it helps you focus and creates a locked-in effect. It allows you to focus and not be distracted (Hence it is used for kids with ADD). Believe me you will understand how hard this is when you are in the 6th straight hour of studying. Also, I believe that these drugs are meant to be used in adolescents not in adults (which as hard as it might be to believe are what med students are, except that kid at UC who is 13 and a few others).

That being said some students in my school use them too and I DO consider it cheating, but I have done just fine anyhow. People use whatever gimmicks possible to get an advantage. to the OP I dont know what you can do. Just keep working your tail off.

 

[CaptainJack02]

*soap box ON*

aren't there any serious side effects to deter people?

i wonder if long term memory retention is decreased due to the drug. if so, people who are getting A's now may perform poorly during rotations/residency. even if the pill itself doesn't get the A's for you, medicine is such a serious endeavor that i wouldn't risk not remembering an important fact when i most need it just to study a few more hours *now* and get an A tomorrow. *now* as in whenever i get into medical school.

*soap box OFF*

 

[EctopicFetus]

ADVERSE REACTIONS
Nervousness and insomnia are the most common adverse reactions but are usually controlled by reducing dosage and omitting the drug in the afternoon or evening. Other reactions include hypersensitivity (including skin rash, urticaria, fever, arthralgia, exfoliative dermatitis, erythema multiforme with histopathological findings of necrotizing vasculitis, and thrombocytopenic purpura); anorexia; nausea; dizziness; palpitations; headache; dyskinesia; drowsiness; blood pressure and pulse changes, both up and down; tachycardia; angina; cardiac arrhythmia; abdominal pain; weight loss during prolonged therapy. There have been rare reports of Tourette's syndrome. Toxic psychosis has been reported. Although a definite causal relationship has not been established, the following have been reported in patients taking this drug: instances of abnormal liver function, ranging from transaminase elevation to hepatic coma; isolated cases of cerebral arteritis and/or occlusion; leukopenia and/or anemia; transient depressed mood; a few instances of scalp hair loss. Very rare reports of neuroleptic malignant syndrome (NMS) have been received, and, in most of these, patients were concurrently receiving therapies associated with NMS. In a single report, a ten year old boy who had been taking methylphenidate for approximately 18 months experienced an NMS-like event within 45 minutes of ingesting his first dose of venlafaxine. It is uncertain whether this case represented a drug-drug interaction, a response to either drug alone, or some other cause.

In children, loss of appetite, abdominal pain, weight loss during prolonged therapy, insomnia, and tachycardia may occur more frequently; however, any of the other adverse reactions listed above may also occur.

From the PDR. None of the SEs relate to memory loss. Overall this is a pretty benign drug compared to others. Of course it is interesting that there is NO mention on its use in adults. CaptainJack I agree that there is no reason to use this but then again there are not a lot of negatives for those that do use this drug.

 

[gwyn779]

So, what you're stating is that Ritalin works to enhance cognitive ability of every person that uses it. If this was so, wouldn't it be marketed as a memory drug. Wouldn't doctors use it. Would everyone use it. Wouldn't it be the prozac of 1990.

Stimulants can enhance a person's ability to concentrate, which is why it's used for ADD. However, it doesn't work for everyone eith ADD (although it does for 70-90%) and not everyone it works for has ADD. I think the idea is that it makes more of a difference if a person has ADD, since they really have a chemical/activity deficit.

Now, it's been studied like crazy in children but not adults because until recently it was believed that children "grew out" of ADD. This is not true. Symptoms change, yes, since you rarely find adults running around the classroom, however it does still negatively impact functioning. The only drug that's really been studied for adult ADD is Straterra which apparently works really well. I have no idea how it affects normal people. While there are no controlled trials, general practice has been to prescribe stimulants for adult ADD and it appears to work just like it does in children.

The problem with stimulants, of course, is that they're controlled substances. They tend to be addictive, which is why when normal people use them, they end up escalating doses. This is also why many doctors are reluctant to prescribe stimulants to adults who really have ADD, since people with ADD have addictive tendencies. The interesting thing is that first of all, people with ADD don't tend to need escalating doses. Once they're on one that works, that dose continues to work. Second, if you control a person's ADD symptoms, they tend to NOT have an increased risk of substance abuse/addiction.

But then we get people who abuse what is for some a very necessary med. If someone feels they need to abuse drugs to get a higher A, they have issues and they're going to end up crashing and burning.

And no, Ritalin doesn't have any adverse long-term effects on memory. This makes sense, since it doesn't really mess with memory, just concentration.

 

[MD'05]

One-third of my medical school class is supposedly on Ritalin or one of the other ADHD drugs. In fact, my counselor was willing to write a script for me since I have a terrible time with focus and concentration. I would have taken it, except I have a fear of being addicted to anything (other than food and coffee).

I have been told by students taking Ritalin that it really helps with concentration and that one does not have the racing thoughts that you do with coffee. The neurologist where I rotated for neurology would prescribe Concerta to his adult patients with decreased concentration. These patients seemed to think Concerta helped to improve their concentration.

I would imagine that once you began to take one of these drugs regularly, that you would have to take them for life. Scary.

 

[Crake]

For those of us not interested in finding someone on a shady street corner to sell us illegal Ritalin or Adderoll, are there any OTC products that can help with concentration/memory? (other than caffine, which practically all of us abuse already)

 

[MustafaMond]

For those of us not interested in finding someone on a shady street corner to sell us illegal Ritalin or Adderoll, are there any OTC products that can help with concentration/memory? (other than caffine, which practically all of us abuse already)

B Complex vitamins
I am a HUGE believer in this, and every medical student should take centrum everyday.
Especially if they drink... (which depletes reduced glutathione)

 

[Discobolus]

There is a product called Biotest Power Drive that is great for increasing focus. It is geared toward athletes but can also be used for studying. Here is a link which describes its ingredients.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=19708E9B0BA3E765C962A98AAC14FE29.ba06?id=459249

Don't let the name of the website scare you off. It looks like a bunch of bodybuilder meatheads on 'roids, but it is really pretty scientific.

 

[samenewme]

For those of us not interested in finding someone on a shady street corner to sell us illegal Ritalin or Adderoll, are there any OTC products that can help with concentration/memory? (other than caffine, which practically all of us abuse already)

I seem to recall that one or two small studies suggested that Gingko Biloba helped performance on memory tests even for young people (early information focused on memory loss in seniors and post-menopausal women).

 

[romed81]

Lecithin - it works if you take it for a long time. Actually it has no side effects, but also helps the liver too. I've been taking it for years, and it really works. I couldn't notice the effect, but the others deffinitely did.

 

[Celestron2000]

hate to say it, and wouldn't advocate it, but nicotine enhances concentration and learning... so say all the neuroscientist/ biochemist types in my lab.

 

[Celestron2000]

I'm not sure the people using ritalin are any more cheating than anyone else in the class who drinks coffee, or smokes cigarets, or whatever...
It doesn't make you any smarter, it just helps you concentrate and stay awake (like speed.) I knew some people who did this in undergrad. I wouldn't do this to my body, but I'm not sure I'd call it cheating. There are consequences to the actions that we take, these people may have to pay some fairly heavy ones.

 

[jdub]

depending on what state your in and how you feel about it, there is ephedrine.

like any stimulant, it could cause nervousness and anxiety, which could lead to depression. oh yeah, a few poeple have been reported to die under its influence . . .

probably safer to stick with caffiene though. i don't know if there is a lot of proof behind all of the hype that has caused it to get banned in most places . . . i could still buy it in alaska last time i was home in august and they sell it in canada as of last january.

i haven't used any in a while, tends to make me stay up all night before the exam. kind of a double edge sword, great for focusing in for hours on end, but when you want to sleep, go figure, you can't. of course i find the same to be true with the amount of tea that i drink (coffee rips my stomach up), but that is a little more predictable and wears off quicker.

if you are so inclined, getting ridalin or what ever the "add" drug of the month is probably isn't that hard, they give it to kids for just mentioning difficulty in school . . .

i'd keep it to yourself though, some folks in our community get rather upset when their classmates or colleagues "cheat", because only god knows that it is natural to be in lecture all day and then study all night, or better yet, be totally focused on a few hours sleep when an emergency comes through the doors.

 

[g3pro]

Imagine, 20 years ago, people didn't take ritilin and actually succeeded in completing med school!


Does the term "performance enhancing drug" mean anything to anyone? It's cheating the system. What kind of person takes steroids to enhance athletic performance? That's right: lonely, desperate, and obsessive athletes. Same goes for the ritilin users.

Ever see what someone looks like after prolonged use of steroids? 😱 Just imagine what it is doing to your neurons. What happens when you want to quit after 10 years?


Bottom line: it's cheating. You may not think so, primarily because you are morally relativistic or have no moral decency at all. I have a moral foundation, though.

 

[inshanesworld]

One-third of my medical school class is supposedly on Ritalin or one of the other ADHD drugs.


That's Nice 😡 So are we going to trust these people (who already have a Hx of illegally acquiring drugs, and yes, writing scripts w/o diagnosis is not good) when they have a pass to Rx narcotics? Honestly, does anyone understand that oft times it is how one does the journey and not how they cross the finish line that makes the difference.

 

[Discobolus]

Does the term "performance enhancing drug" mean anything to anyone? It's cheating the system. What kind of person takes steroids to enhance athletic performance? That's right: lonely, desperate, and obsessive athletes. Same goes for the ritilin users.

Ever see what someone looks like after prolonged use of steroids? 😱 Just imagine what it is doing to your neurons. What happens when you want to quit after 10 years?

I think someone has been watching too many movies of the week about steroid use. I competed in a sport that has had it's share of drug scandals over the years although I would venture to say it is cleaner than the "Big 3" professional sports at the moment (that is a whole other rant). I know and trained with an Olympic Gold medalist (former Soviet bloc) who served a drug suspension and he certainly wasn't lonely, desperate, and obsessive, he simply came from a system where that is how it was done.

I'm certainly not promoting drug use in fact I'm quite against it, but with steroids it's no different than the misinformation anti-drug campaigns that are used for a lot of other drugs.

Anyway the evils of ritalin and steroids have both been covered in-depth on South Park 😀

 

[g3pro]

That's Nice 😡 So are we going to trust these people (who already have a Hx of illegally acquiring drugs, and yes, writing scripts w/o diagnosis is not good) when they have a pass to Rx narcotics? Honestly, does anyone understand that oft times it is how one does the journey and not how they cross the finish line that makes the difference.

Yeah, no kidding. I'm really wondering who this 1/3 is and what school this is. (I'm guessing: Wash U, UCSF, Emory, Harvard, or University of Chicago).


Come on, you can tell me. 🙂

 

[Spacedman]

.

 

[gschl1234]

To the OP and others in medical school: have your classmates taking Ritalin been evaluated by doctors? I mean, is it something they need to take because they aren't functioning normally? What are the criteria used when determining whether to prescribe Ritalin (dosage)?

 

[SaltySqueegee]

Imagine, 20 years ago, people didn't take ritilin and actually succeeded in completing med school!

Yeah, 20 years ago it used to be cocaine, and before that I'm sure they did other crap. Also, 20 years ago, the average medical school would lose on average 1-2 students to Suicide. Hmmm...

 

[sacrament]

Bottom line: it's cheating. You may not think so, primarily because you are morally relativistic or have no moral decency at all. I have a moral foundation, though.

I think this is ridiculous. Is it "cheating" to pound coffee all night in order to achieve a like effect? It may not be a wise decision but to call it cheating is, in my mind, patently absurd.

 

[debvz]

I'd hate to be one of those classmates after getting busted for possession/use of a controlled substance w/o a rx.....not sure if that's a felony or not, but getting caught may put a kink in their ability to be licensed.

 

[sacrament]

I'd hate to be one of those classmates after getting busted for possession/use of a controlled substance w/o a rx.....not sure if that's a felony or not, but getting caught may put a kink in their ability to be licensed.

I can't count the number of med students I've heard of getting busted for illegal Ritalin use. It's gotta be in the hundreds.

 

[Gleevec]

Please, the lameass arguments saying that Ritalin/Adderall are extreme forms of coffee are ridiculous.

That entire class of ADD drugs are Schedule II amphetamines, much more addictive and with much greater side effects than caffeine. They dont even act by similar mechanisms, so pharmacologically the argument that amphetamines are just "more extreme caffeine" is crap.

And in terms of "cheating" by using caffeine. The act of "cheating" with Ritalin is that users illegally take them to improve upon a function that should only be improved in those psychiatrically deficient in concentration. Cheating isnt using a stimulant to stay up longer persay, its using a stimulant ILLEGALLY.

And no, when you illegally use Ritalin its not "you" who is doing all the work, its the drug. Without the drug, you wouldnt be able to concentrate that long anyway. So to say illegal Ritalin users deserve their grade is preposterous. That's like saying a gold medal olympian caught user steroids deserves their medal.

The fact is, the illegal use of ADD drugs to boost performance is simply a sign that a student isnt smart or diligent enough to handle the workload.

 

[Ratch]

personally i would be more worried about what these people will do when they have their own script pad in hand someday. if they need to compensate now, god only knows what will happen when they have three kids, a wife or husband that is pissed about them working too much, and a bunch of patients screaming at them about needing their own pain meds.

these people run a high risk of substance someday.

its sad that they haven't figured out how to manage their time efficiently enough to get through medical school, thats really the problem when it comes down to it. these people were broken from the get-go, and they picked a nasty band-aid to patch it up with. but its not cheating. its just some dumb medical students thinking they found something that gives them an edge. good for them. personally, i wouldn't advocate substance abuse as a means to become a healthcare professional, but then again i probably won't have to worry about sending them my patients b/c they'll have had their license yanked for demerol abuse...

 

[sacrament]

Please, the lameass arguments saying that Ritalin/Adderall are extreme forms of coffee are ridiculous.

That entire class of ADD drugs are Schedule II amphetamines, much more addictive and with much greater side effects than caffeine. They dont even act by similar mechanisms, so pharmacologically the argument that amphetamines are just "more extreme caffeine" is crap.

Whether the side effects, mechanisms, pharmacokinetics, smells, whatever, are different, the result is pretty much the same. Caffeine improves concentration and alertness too, albeit usually to a lesser degree and with shakier hands. To say that Ritalin and caffeine are not comparable because they aren't in the same drug class makes no sense to me. Who cares? We're talking about results, not chemical structure.

And in terms of "cheating" by using caffeine. The act of "cheating" with Ritalin is that users illegally take them to improve upon a function that should only be improved in those psychiatrically deficient in concentration. Cheating isnt using a stimulant to stay up longer persay, its using a stimulant ILLEGALLY.

I don't buy the argument that because it's illegal to have Ritalin without a prescription, you're cheating on tests. Let's say you find somebody to write you a Rx. Okay, now it's legal. Does this change anything in your mind? The legality of using the drug and the ethics of the result are entirely different issues.

And no, when you illegally use Ritalin its not "you" who is doing all the work, its the drug.

Again, what if you're "legally" using it?! How is the situation magically altered? Let's say coffee was outlawed tomorrow. Would you suddenly consider drinking coffee before a test to be "cheating?" Of course not, because laws do not dictate morality.

No, I'm not a Ritalin user. (I mean, I've had it before but I didn't use it as a study aid. That would have required me to study.) I know a few people who are, and more power to them. If it helps them realize what they are capable of, fine.

 

[MD'05]

Whoa peeps ... who said anything about illegal use of Ritalin?? Do you realize how easy it is to be legally diagnosed with ADD??

As for substance abuse / addiction in practitioners, you guys obviously have to spend more time on the wards. It's very easy to get all moral until you work for an attending with an abuse problem. Very sad.

 

[Gleevec]

Whether the side effects, mechanisms, pharmacokinetics, smells, whatever, are different, the result is pretty much the same. Caffeine improves concentration and alertness too, albeit usually to a lesser degree and with shakier hands. To say that Ritalin and caffeine are not comparable because they aren't in the same drug class makes no sense to me. Who cares? We're talking about results, not chemical structure.



I don't buy the argument that because it's illegal to have Ritalin without a prescription, you're cheating on tests. Let's say you find somebody to write you a Rx. Okay, now it's legal. Does this change anything in your mind? The legality of using the drug and the ethics of the result are entirely different issues.



Again, what if you're "legally" using it?! How is the situation magically altered? Let's say coffee was outlawed tomorrow. Would you suddenly consider drinking coffee before a test to be "cheating?" Of course not, because laws do not dictate morality.

No, I'm not a Ritalin user. (I mean, I've had it before but I didn't use it as a study aid. That would have required me to study.) I know a few people who are, and more power to them. If it helps them realize what they are capable of, fine.

1. Please, talking about results without consulting the mechanism is worthless. The fact is, it is the MECHANISM that determines addiction and side effects. I dont think there's much more to say on that.

2. Medical ethics are inherently judicial. As soon as premeds start to think they are better than the law, that is where they begin to think they are gods. Sure, right now "Ritalin being illegal" is a "major bummer holding me down." But why stop there. I dont like paying taxes (no one does), and Im sure doctors have violated HIPAA (which is also a major drag in terms of paperwork). Violating the law for Ritalin is just the first step in many premeds thinking they are better than the law.

3. The legality/illegality of caffeine and amphetamines is wholly based on the mechanism, which you choosed to ignore, and the consequent side effects and addictive properties of the drug. A glass of wine can sedate you, but so can elephant tranquilizer or some other highly potent sedative. But to compare the two, it is truly apples and oranges.

4. So if someone wants to use Ritalin fine by your standards. I guess once they have deemed themselves above the law, a whole new world of once-illegal action is open to them. I mean, lets face it, Medicare is holding me down man, how can I pay for my brand new BMW and my freaking Hummer man. Maybe since Im above the law Ill go get some more $$$ to.

5. Ritalin abuse in and of itself is unethical in that it provides an unfair advantage to those who use it in the same way steroid use is unethical-- it inherently punishes those who follow the law . The legality of it has more to do with the nature of the drug itself. Perhaps the worst thing is that academic underachievers who use it never get the experience of having struggled to achieve something by themselves. But then again, if the law is keeping ya down man, just break it. That's the solution, right?

 

[raspberry swirl]

my roommate in college used to buy narcolepsy drugs off a narcoleptic girl on our floor so she could stay awake all night to write papers. try that one on for size. it used to drive me nuts, because i would actually attempt to get my work done on time so i wouldn't be forced to stay up all night . . . but i would have to anyway, as i listened to her type away ferociously on her computer all night 😡

 

[sacrament]

1. Please, talking about results without consulting the mechanism is worthless. The fact is, it is the MECHANISM that determines addiction and side effects. I dont think there's much more to say on that.

The problem you have wth Ritalin isn't about its addictive qualities and side effects. These issues are tangents. Your problem is the result of using the drug. A result not entirely unlike that of drinking a ton coffee. The fact that Ritalin is more addictive than coffee is not of consequence in this discussion.

2. Medical ethics are inherently judicial. As soon as premeds start to think they are better than the law, that is where they begin to think they are gods. Sure, right now "Ritalin being illegal" is a "major bummer holding me down." But why stop there. I dont like paying taxes (no one does), and Im sure doctors have violated HIPAA (which is also a major drag in terms of paperwork). Violating the law for Ritalin is just the first step in many premeds thinking they are better than the law.

Are you actually trying to tell me that you equate law with morality? Is jay-walking immoral? Is riding a motorcycle without a helmet immoral? Nobody is going to debate that if the Dean finds out a medical student is hooked on ill-gotten Ritalin, said med student is going to be in a world of hurt. That's the "law" side. It says nothing about the "ethics" side.

Murder is both illegal and immoral. However, is it immoral because it's illegal?

Is illegal use of Ritalin immoral because it's illegal? No? Then stop mentioning "legality" every fifth word.

3. The legality/illegality of caffeine and amphetamines is wholly based on the mechanism,

No, it's wholy based on the result. If you want to say "yeah, but the result is based on the mechanism!" then you're just being pedantic.

4. So if someone wants to use Ritalin fine by your standards. I guess once they have deemed themselves above the law, a whole new world of once-illegal action is open to them. I mean, lets face it, Medicare is holding me down man, how can I pay for my brand new BMW and my freaking Hummer man. Maybe since Im above the law Ill go get some more $$$ to.

No, they aren't "above the law" and will face whatever consequences await them if caught. Them's the breaks. If you get caught jaywalking, you get a ticket. Will I condemn jaywalkers as immoral people because they broke the law and got a ticket? Nope. They shouldn't jaywalk because it's dangerous and they could get run over. Not because it's immoral.

5. Ritalin abuse in and of itself is unethical in that it provides an unfair advantage to those who use it in the same way steroid use is unethical-- it inherently punishes those who follow the law . The legality of it has more to do with the nature of the drug itself. Perhaps the worst thing is that academic underachievers who use it never get the experience of having struggled to achieve something by themselves. But then again, if the law is keeping ya down man, just break it. That's the solution, right?

You're way caught up in this whole "legality" thing. As if I'm trying to tell you that it's fine and legal to use Ritalin without a prescription. All I'm trying to say is that it's utterly ridiculous to let lawmakers tell you what is moral and what is immoral. Right now, the lawmakers in the United States are trying to tell me that gay marriage is immoral, by making it illegal. So tell me Gleevec, should that be good enough for me? Should I rewrite my moral code because Senator So-and-So passed a law?

There is a legitimate ethical debate to be had about this, but "legality" should not be a cornerstone of it.

 

[Gleevec]

Should I rewrite my moral code because Senator So-and-So passed a law?

I really wish you would read my posts...

Im not saying that legality and morality are one in the same. In many cases the legal thing to do (report Jews under the Nazis) is not the moral thing to do (hide them).

But I already made the moral argument above, related to the creation of an uneven playing field. Im not saying that morality is legality or vice versa, but what I am saying is once doctors (or doctors-to-be) start thinking they are above the law, they will act like that towards other aspects of life.

I think that is worth repeating: once doctors feel they are above the law, they can rationalize just about any action.

Just like you are right now. So now, Im not saying morality is legality. What I am saying is that using ritalin without a prescription is immoral and it is in fact illegal.

In any case, its useless trying to argue with you about this. I just hope that one of the people you know abusing amphetamines doesnt get into any trouble, or worse, becomes addicted and gets seriously ill. Because you can try to argue morality and legality all you want Sacrament, and we can go in circles forever, but as soon as one person you or I know gets addicted or has something bad happen to them because of this I think all arguments immediately become moot.

 

[mshheaddoc]

My cousin is in medical school and he told me that a few people in his class take prescription pain pills after big exams and stressfull weeks. Do you believe that?

Yes I believe it. I know med students who do this THEN go out drinking. My friends did this in college ... don't see HOW they did it. But they proceed to get EXTREMELY f'd up and makes them feel "all" better.

Whatever.

Some people need the drugs like Ritalin for concentration. My brother did, my roomie in college did, but not in prescription form? I don't know. Don't know if I'd ever do it, although I could use a boost. Maybe its my morals, I'm not a drug girl I suppose. But its illegal prescriptions .... medical ethics anyone?

 

[sacrament]

I really wish you would read my posts...

Im not saying that legality and morality are one in the same. In many cases the legal thing to do (report Jews under the Nazis) is not the moral thing to do (hide them).

But I already made the moral argument above, related to the creation of an uneven playing field. Im not saying that morality is legality or vice versa, but what I am saying is once doctors (or doctors-to-be) start thinking they are above the law, they will act like that towards other aspects of life.

Sure, I'd agree with that, 100%, but it's another thread entirely. It isn't a "Is Ritalin abuse immoral?" thread, it's a "Doctors who think they're above the law" thread. I don't necessarily think the connection between these two issues is nearly strong enough to merit including it in this debate.

In any case, its useless trying to argue with you about this. I just hope that one of the people you know abusing amphetamines doesnt get into any trouble, or worse, becomes addicted and gets seriously ill. Because you can try to argue morality and legality all you want Sacrament, and we can go in circles forever, but as soon as one person you or I know gets addicted or has something bad happen to them because of this I think all arguments immediately become moot.

In a sense, you're right about it being useless to argue with me about this, because, like abortion or religious debates, it boils down to a fundamental difference in world view... If my best friend got addicted to speed and his life began to spiral downward, sure, it would be horrible. Yeah, I'd wish he'd made different choices in life. But I wouldn't view his actions as "immoral" per se. I don't use Ritalin because I decided awhile back that it wasn't a wise move. Bad life decisions aren't unethical, they're just stupid.

 

[sacrament]

Forgot about this:

But I already made the moral argument above, related to the creation of an uneven playing field.

I suppose I don't see the "uneven playing field" as being an issue because I don't really believe that the Ritalin abusers are working any less hard than anybody else. I would never say "I'm pissed at Johnny because he took Ritalin and was therefore able to stay up longer and study more hours than me!" because if I wanted to study more hours, I just would... I mean, these whiners need to buck up a little bit. I don't even understand the issue... are people getting so sleepy they just simply can't compete with a Ritalin abuser in terms of studying? I mean, seriously, to compare this to steroid abuse in athletics is a real stretch, because steroids allow the competitors to achieve results they never possibly could have achieved otherwise. I simply don't believe this is the case with Ritalin. That's my take on it. I guess you can disagree with that, and I guess that's why there are no easy answers in ethics.

 

[Bevo]

I didn't expect such a response.

Some things I glanced over.
These people are doing it without any prescription or any doctor counsultation. They're doing it to get ahead or gain an advantage in their school work and their grades. Especially here where grades are based on a curve and we have to meet a certain GPA to be allowed to sit for the USMLE.

It is an unfair advantage because they're trying to go beyond what most people can do normally. I've seen the way some of them study. It allows them to study in such a way that I've never seen anyone study before. It doesn't look natural. They're time spent studying is made more efficient as well.

Its not a drug anyone can just go and pick up. its not freely available to everyone. I don't see how anyone can justify it being no different than caffeine.

 

[inshanesworld]

Believe me if Ritalin was the same as caffeine people would not be paying $5-$10 a pill for it on the street instead they would spend the money on 4 double-shot lattes (which are far more enjoyable I might add).

 

[SaltySqueegee]

Believe me if Ritalin was the same as caffeine people would not be paying $5-$10 a pill for it on the street instead they would spend the money on 4 double-shot lattes (which are far more enjoyable I might add).

HAHA... Back at my alma-mater [sp?], the local cafe had an off the menu drink called rocket fuel. Eight shots of espresso later, and I thought I was God! Literally, I felt the electricity running through me. I became a fricken literary savant when I used this crap. Great for putting together those last minute procrastinated projects. 👍

Talk about a migraine after... eh. 👎

 

[39094]

Forgot about this:



I suppose I don't see the "uneven playing field" as being an issue because I don't really believe that the Ritalin abusers are working any less hard than anybody else. I would never say "I'm pissed at Johnny because he took Ritalin and was therefore able to stay up longer and study more hours than me!" because if I wanted to study more hours, I just would... I mean, these whiners need to buck up a little bit. I don't even understand the issue... are people getting so sleepy they just simply can't compete with a Ritalin abuser in terms of studying? I mean, seriously, to compare this to steroid abuse in athletics is a real stretch, because steroids allow the competitors to achieve results they never possibly could have achieved otherwise. I simply don't believe this is the case with Ritalin. That's my take on it. I guess you can disagree with that, and I guess that's why there are no easy answers in ethics.

This is all very similar to an Adderall thread I weighed in on a few months ago (and took many a lump). I'll say again what I said then:

You can bounce the morality/legality issue back and forth as much as you want and you will probably just end up going in circles forever because everyone is working on a different moral code. Immorality for one person might simply be "fun" for another.

But I choose to look at it this way: if you have to be so competitive as to take drugs to get an advantage over me, then when I find out about it I'm going to report your ass to the dean. Those of us who choose not to abuse drugs will always have that trump card. Call me a whiner, narc, butt-in or whatever you want, but the fact that you are trying to screw me over pretty much justifies in my mind doing what I have to screw you back.

So, if you want to pop pills before a test, go right ahead, I can't stop you. But, rest assured if I find out about it and have decent evidence to back it up, you'll be getting a call from the dean.

God, I'm such a narc😉 Why can't I just mind my own business.....😉

 

[Fermata]

This is all very similar to an Adderall thread I weighed in on a few months ago (and took many a lump). I'll say again what I said then:

You can bounce the morality/legality issue back and forth as much as you want and you will probably just end up going in circles forever because everyone is working on a different moral code. Immorality for one person might simply be "fun" for another.

But I choose to look at it this way: if you have to be so competitive as to take drugs to get an advantage over me, then when I find out about it I'm going to report your ass to the dean. Those of us who choose not to abuse drugs will always have that trump card. Call me a whiner, narc, butt-in or whatever you want, but the fact that you are trying to screw me over pretty much justifies in my mind doing what I have to screw you back.

So, if you want to pop pills before a test, go right ahead, I can't stop you. But, rest assured if I find out about it and have decent evidence to back it up, you'll be getting a call from the dean.

God, I'm such a narc😉 Why can't I just mind my own business.....😉

You're going to Hopkins?

Surprise, surprise. 😉 😀

 

[ctaborda]

damn for all of that typing you guys must be on Ritalin!!! 🙄

 

[AF_PedsBoy]

Ha ha, no, from my lovely undergrad experience Hopkins people would take their Ritalin ...then drug YOUR food with Vicodin, steal all your textbooks while you were passed out, and hire someone to break your arms the night before the test. Then again, you know, maybe Hopkins Med is LESS competitive and more relaxing than undergrad...?

 

[Spacedman]

.

 

[39094]

You're going to Hopkins?

Surprise, surprise. 😉 😀

Dude, have you been to Hopkins Med? If you have then you would realize that it's nothing like Hopkins undergrad (which I've never been to, but have heard many stories from friends who go there).

Since I haven't started yet, I can't say for sure, but everyone I've talked to says the rep. of being super-competitive is WAY exaggerated. P=MD baby.

I come from the U. of Arizona where there is NO competition at all, in fact we're pretty much encouraged NOT to try that hard in our classes. Sitting in on classes at Hopkins and chilling with Hopkins students I can't really feel any difference. Most people are totally chillax about everything.

But in any case, my point was not made to be uber-competitive, it was just to make the point that if somebody is going to try and screw me over, I reserve the right to screw them back, seems only fair, but I guess I'm just one of those "competitive Hopkins people."

Though if I was so competitive, shouldn't I be boning up on my anatomy before classes start instead of being a TOTAL bum and hanging out in Shanghai buying bootleg DVDs for 75 cents? 😛 Guess I'd better get cracking on my Netter's......whoops, forgot to bring it..... 😀

 

[Fermata]

Dude, have you been to Hopkins Med? If you have then you would realize that it's nothing like Hopkins undergrad (which I've never been to, but have heard many stories from friends who go there).

Since I haven't started yet, I can't say for sure, but everyone I've talked to says the rep. of being super-competitive is WAY exaggerated. P=MD baby.

I come from the U. of Arizona where there is NO competition at all, in fact we're pretty much encouraged NOT to try that hard in our classes. Sitting in on classes at Hopkins and chilling with Hopkins students I can't really feel any difference. Most people are totally chillax about everything.

But in any case, my point was not made to be uber-competitive, it was just to make the point that if somebody is going to try and screw me over, I reserve the right to screw them back, seems only fair, but I guess I'm just one of those "competitive Hopkins people."

Though if I was so competitive, shouldn't I be boning up on my anatomy before classes start instead of being a TOTAL bum and hanging out in Shanghai buying bootleg DVDs for 75 cents? 😛 Guess I'd better get cracking on my Netter's......whoops, forgot to bring it..... 😀

I was busting your chops. Good luck to you next year.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I think anyone who doesnt think it is cheating is full of BS or a user themselves. I can say that the use of these drugs dont really make me mad cause I do plenty fine on my own, but if these people do better than those who arent on the drugs they are getting an unfair advantage. I think it is important to remember that the medical field is different than other careers. We have the pad and the power to use and abuse it. Additionally, do you guys remember when you were applying to MD school how they sent you stuff saying that you have to be able to hear, see etc. Well using performance enhancing drugs makes life easier when you study (you get more out of your time) the question is what happens when you stop using these meds.

Anyone who doesnt see the comparison between Ritalin abuse in an adult and steroid use is missing something I think. Both of these allow you to get more out of the same amount of effort (think Digitalis). Also to the poster who says the mechanism doesnt matter must not have taken pharm. The effects of Cocaine is similar to some antidepressants but somehow one is legal and the other is not.

 

[39094]

I was busting your chops. Good luck to you next year.

Right on 😀 But maybe I'll change my mind once I start, who knows😉

Good luck to you too.

 

[sacrament]

Anyone who doesnt see the comparison between Ritalin abuse in an adult and steroid use is missing something I think.

It's like comparing a canoe to a ocean liner. Yeah, they both float in the water.

Both of these allow you to get more out of the same amount of effort (think Digitalis). Also to the poster who says the mechanism doesnt matter must not have taken pharm.

Yeah, somehow I missed taking pharm in med school. 🙄 The mechanism doesn't matter in regards to this debate. It doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. Let's say Ritalin had exactly the same effect that it does now, but acted via a mechanism almost identical to caffeine. I'm assuming you'd still think that using it was "cheating" because it was providing the same "unfair advantage." Better yet, let's say the mechanism of action was completely unknown. Then how would you feel about Ritalin abuse? Would you say, "Well, I'm undecided, because I don't know how it works!" NO, because this isn't about how it works, it's about what the result is. Why people started getting all interested in the mechanism of action is beyond me. It's completely and utterly irrelevant with regards to the ethics of the situation.

Take some Ritalin and see how you feel. See if you feel considerably different than you do after pounding a couple cups of coffee. (You won't.) That's why I never really bothered with Ritalin after the one time I tried it; it just isn't that effective. Coffee is easier and cheaper and tastes good and it works for me and getting addicted to coffee is no big deal. Ritalin use in academics is nothing like steroid use in athletics, not even close. To say the comparison is a stretch would be generous.