Ritalin abuse at your school?

[inshanesworld]

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I have to agree with sacrament. You would have to take a LOT to make it more effective than coffee. However, I think that the big issue is not the mechanics of the drug but the morals of the person.

What type of person knowingly violates the Canons of Medical Ethics to graduate and then when they do graduate they raise their arm up to swear to uphold those Canons? A person who just does not get it. The point of being a great doctor is not grades, honors, or prestige...no...those things are selfish personal wants. The great ones are the people that honor their responsibilities to patients, colleagues, and industry.

Let us not miss the mark here.

 

[Bermiedoc]

Focus fatcor is an OTC for focus and concentration. However i am going for strattera or concerta. I am going to go through the proper channels though and get tested for adult adhd. i think i have it but a mild form. but going through the proper channels i run the risk of not getting a dx but i do need some help focusing. stattera is not addictive and concerta is supposed to be no addictive too.
one thing about ritalin is that it isn't a memnory drug but does help with cognition. but it doesn't increase your IQ ust helps you live upt o your potential and help you work more effiiecntily academically.

 

[Samoa]

Unfortunately, it's very easy to get a prescription for Ritalin. For example, someone came to the pharmacy where I was working just two days ago with two prescriptions (written by the same doctor) totalling 210 of the 20mg tablets. It was supposedly a month's supply. (for that person and 5 friends, most likely) Since I was filling in for the regular pharmacist, I asked the rest of the staff about it, and they said that this person routinely gets that much at a time. Personally, I don't know how anyone can take 140mg of Ritalin a day and not have a heart attack.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Originally Posted by EctopicFetus
Anyone who doesnt see the comparison between Ritalin abuse in an adult and steroid use is missing something I think.


It's like comparing a canoe to a ocean liner. Yeah, they both float in the water.

i guess we would have to agree to disagree.

Yeah, somehow I missed taking pharm in med school. The mechanism doesn't matter in regards to this debate. It doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. Let's say Ritalin had exactly the same effect that it does now, but acted via a mechanism almost identical to caffeine. I'm assuming you'd still think that using it was "cheating" because it was providing the same "unfair advantage." Better yet, let's say the mechanism of action was completely unknown. Then how would you feel about Ritalin abuse? Would you say, "Well, I'm undecided, because I don't know how it works!" NO, because this isn't about how it works, it's about what the result is. Why people started getting all interested in the mechanism of action is beyond me. It's completely and utterly irrelevant with regards to the ethics of the situation.

How can you say that the mechanism doesnt matter? Im not gonna get into a pissing match cause frankly I dont care enough. That being said the effects are going to be different if the mechanism is different. If caffeine is the same thing as Ritalin I think the american consumer has been duped No-Doze is a hell of a lot cheaper than Ritalin. from the PDr website The mode of therapeutic action in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is not known.

I will agree with you that perhaps it didnt have much of an effect(or result) on you but that doesnt mean that the "therapeutic" effect isnt there for others. Not all drugs work for all people and we dont know why.

Sacrament I think you may have missed the point. here is my question to you. If someone was equal to you in every way but they could eat or drink something and it meant that they could study 1/2 as long with the same results would you think that was fair?

If you do think so, then again we will have to disagree. I understand your point that it had no effect on you but that doesnt mean that it doesnt affect others. That being said there is no place for this medication in the medical education system. People use this as a crutch and thats a damn shame.

 

[iamhotok]

you should all stand back, and look at the whole situation here.

if there are enough med schools, and if it is not a high profitable profession, then we won't have so many students who are in med school not for "helping people" but only for "making more money, getting rich."

let them abuse their mind, their body, they can use whatever. there is no law to prohibit that. And any consequences they may have later on in life can only be suffered by themselves.

on the other hand, usa needs a med. school revolution. more HMOs won't solve the problems of health care.

law schools have night classes, i don't see why med. schools can't have night classes, and have an open door policy. that way, i am sure that those greedy students would lost their interests in becoming doctors, and find other ways to help themselves to get rich fast.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I am hot OK... the answer to your question has been pondered previously on this and other forums. The answer to your Question

i don't see why med. schools can't have night classes, and have an open door policy.

is that in order to be well trained you have to see enough "pathology". This is the limiting factor for both residency and therefore for medical school admissions.

Could you imagine seeing a general surgeon who never performed a surgery you needed cause there were too many other surgeons there with him?

That being said I think a redistribution of wealth withing the medical profession needs to occur. Some specialties are way overpaid and others are underpaid. First give us some tort reform (thats a bigger priority for me) then we can talk about fixing the insurance system.

 

[jake2]

personally i would be more worried about what these people will do when they have their own script pad in hand someday. if they need to compensate now, god only knows what will happen when they have three kids, a wife or husband that is pissed about them working too much, and a bunch of patients screaming at them about needing their own pain meds.

these people run a high risk of substance someday.

its sad that they haven't figured out how to manage their time efficiently enough to get through medical school, thats really the problem when it comes down to it. these people were broken from the get-go, and they picked a nasty band-aid to patch it up with. but its not cheating. its just some dumb medical students thinking they found something that gives them an edge. good for them. personally, i wouldn't advocate substance abuse as a means to become a healthcare professional, but then again i probably won't have to worry about sending them my patients b/c they'll have had their license yanked for demerol abuse...

I agree with this poster. It's not inherant immoral to takes pills to help you concentrate nor do I really see it as cheating, but I seriously question the priorities of anybody taking a mind altering substance with unknown long term side effects to help them study for a long time. Is it really that important to score a few points higher on your gross exam that you take an illegal drug (and if you don't have ADHD, I don't care how you conned your way into getting it, it's illegal)? We all know how important every single test we take turns out to be in the long run, after all...

 

[stoic]

It's been some time since I've chased my own tail, and I do need some exercise... so I'm jumping in.

I'd like to start by discussing a couple of my friends. I have two friends who where legitmately dx'ed with ADHD years and years ago (jr. high). The both have prn scripts for Adderoll. Now they're both in college (one will be a junior and the other a senior) and they have both, independantly, decided not to take their Adderall unless studying for a big test. Both openly admit that they really don't need the perscription to function at a normal level, but recognize having it for use during high stress/low sleep time periods is advantageous to them. Both had for a time (one for over a year and the other for about 6 months) completely stopped taking Adderall, but then started again under the previously established conditions. In effect they are legally doing exactly what many students are doing illegally. The only difference is that they have a perscription that was made years ago that they no longer take as per physician instruction. Where do they fall in the moral spectrum? Another kicker is they both actively encourage friends w/o a dx to use Adderall and will actually provide pills from their stashes for free. An offer that I've been tempted by several times, but have not accepted.

I should like to say I saddled up the ole' high horse as soon as I read the title of this thread. It just bugs the hell out of me how people throw around the terms of use and abuse. The distance between use and abuse can be scary short, but the fact remains that they are distinct actions. One of the commonly held defintions of abuse is "use that results in personal detriment." Obviously a med student who gets caught using an illegal schedule drug is screwed, and that definately falls under "personal detriment." HOWEVER, to me, it is bogus when we start using legality to assign this "personal detriment." And it is - to be sure - the legality of the actions that cause problems for busted students. If it were legal to use Adderall, med schools wouldn't blink twice if students were doing it. IF a student/anyone else uses a drug that causes no harm to them or anyone else except in terms of legal ramifications, have they really done anything morally wrong? Since we already negated legality in assigning morality, we can say that they answer is no (well, at least that's MY answer.)

Now, obviously this stuff is illegal unless you have a script. To me it's not worth risking my career for a couple extra points. But that's just how I look at it. Each person should be (an is) free to make their own judgements on the use of drugs.

Is it cheating? Hell no. Unless they were studying from a book that had test answers in it. In principle it's not any different than using coffee/ephedrine/whatever to help stay awake EXCEPT that Adderall is illegal (w/o a script). Again I'll bring up that legality cannot be used to decided upon morality (morality is a core personal value and is rarely subject to change regardless of influence of the outside). Please remember that cheating is immoral act, not an illegal act. So the best we can do is establish that using Adderall illegaly seems immoral to some and moral to others. If you find it immoral, then you gotta do what you gotta do. I would, however, encourage discussing your thoughts with offending students before taking it to the Dean.

Well, that's enough for now. I've probably contradicted myself several times as well as made numerous grammatical and spelling errors. Please feel free to point all of these mistakes out.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Using the previous posters logic then since Growth Hormone is legal (given to short statured kids) if someone obtains it and then gains a competetive advantage in sports (football, pro baseball etc.) it may be illegal but not immoral. Of course these same people could use Andro, Ephedra (now illegal i know), Creatinine (these would be the equivalents to the caffeine/ephedra analogy) to get the same result as those on GH the only difference is that it is a lot more work for the individual.

In the end it is my OPINION that this is immoral and a fact that this is illegal (w/o a script). I somehow dont see the difference between GH and Ritalin both give an unfair advantage and allow someone to achieve something easier than others. I realize this is a very very fine line (someone could point to the advantage a kid gets by going to some wonderful private school while other kids are often stuck in crappy public schools. This is not fair to some and something that truly bothers me greatly. I would argue though that even though I am not happy with the educational system we have an agreement to live in a capitalist society and since communism isnt the rule here this is what we have agreed to a social contract if you will.

Well I am sure some people will try to nail me but this is all my opinion but I would like to hear what others have to say.

 

[stoic]

Using the previous posters logic then since Growth Hormone is legal (given to short statured kids) if someone obtains it and then gains a competetive advantage in sports (football, pro baseball etc.) it may be illegal but not immoral.

Yup, pretty much. You may find it abhorrent for a pro athlete to use GH or anabolic steroids, but someone else might not. In fact, someone else might want the pro's taking the drug so they can see more grand slams and 360 dunks.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Stoic,

Yup, pretty much. You may find it abhorrent for a pro athlete to use GH or anabolic steroids, but someone else might not. In fact, someone else might want the pro's taking the drug so they can see more grand slams and 360 dunks.

I only think it is wrong because if there is another person who does not want to risk injuring themselves (I assume you know the SEs of GH) they are at a disadvantage. Also, as far as pro athletes and doctors both are role models in society. I would also wonder what a patient might think if they found out you used "performance enhancing drugs" which is what I think Ritalin falls under.

 

[Discobolus]

Of course these same people could use Andro, Ephedra (now illegal i know), Creatinine (these would be the equivalents to the caffeine/ephedra analogy) to get the same result as those on GH the only difference is that it is a lot more work for the individual.

Creatinine is a waste product and a marker of kidney function. Creatine is the substance taken by athletes to increase intramuscular stores of phosphocreatine. There is a big difference. No wonder most athletes think doctors are idiots about sports supplements, because most are, but it sure doesn't stop them from giving their opinions.

Ephedra is now illegal, but ephedrine is not. Funny how the herbal form has been banned but the pure active ingredient which is more powerful has not been.

 

[Gleevec]

Yup, pretty much. You may find it abhorrent for a pro athlete to use GH or anabolic steroids, but someone else might not. In fact, someone else might want the pro's taking the drug so they can see more grand slams and 360 dunks.

Stoic, tell me you actually believe this and arent just trying to be sophistic? Take a step back, clear your mind, and read what you just wrote. Has our society degenerated so far as to make moral statements such as the one you just made acceptable?

 

[mollybo]

Unfortunately, it's very easy to get a prescription for Ritalin. For example, someone came to the pharmacy where I was working just two days ago with two prescriptions (written by the same doctor) totalling 210 of the 20mg tablets. It was supposedly a month's supply. (for that person and 5 friends, most likely) Since I was filling in for the regular pharmacist, I asked the rest of the staff about it, and they said that this person routinely gets that much at a time. Personally, I don't know how anyone can take 140mg of Ritalin a day and not have a heart attack.

He could be using it nominally off-label. Mr. Molly has narcolepsy and was prescribed astounding amounts of Ritalin; we would have to call ahead to the pharmacy to warn them when we were refilling because they often wouldn't have enough in stock (generic Ritalin gave him headaches, so we had to use name-brand). We moved to Provigil two days after it was approved. We had to go to an independant pharmacy who would over-night it for us - Walgreens didn't even carry it yet.

I seem to remember his Ritalin dose being about as much as your customer.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Disco, I actually know the difference and I just made a little mistake as I am currently studying for an exam and reading about Creatinine Clearance. I have been researching athletic supplements since I was in HS (which sadly was a long time ago).

No wonder most athletes think doctors are idiots about sports supplements, because most are, but it sure doesn't stop them from giving their opinions.

One of the funniest things I have EVER read. After all arent most athletes such stellar students to begin with

I have played competitive sports for a long long time and let me tell you there sure arent too many people who know how these supplements work rather they hear that it works.

If the average athlete knew enough about this he wouldnt have to ask his doctor to begin with. Anyhow, I made a little typo will you forgive me.

Creatine Monophosphate BABY! tastes orangy to me.

As far as ephedra vs ephedrine the government typically over reacts and makes illogical conclusions when something bad happens.

 

[Discobolus]

Disco, I actually know the difference and I just made a little mistake as I am currently studying for an exam and reading about Creatinine Clearance. I have been researching athletic supplements since I was in HS (which sadly was a long time ago).



One of the funniest things I have EVER read. After all arent most athletes such stellar students to begin with

I have played competitive sports for a long long time and let me tell you there sure arent too many people who know how these supplements work rather they hear that it works.

If the average athlete knew enough about this he wouldnt have to ask his doctor to begin with. Anyhow, I made a little typo will you forgive me.

Creatine Monophosphate BABY! tastes orangy to me.

As far as ephedra vs ephedrine the government typically over reacts and makes illogical conclusions when something bad happens.

I only speak from my frame of reference as an athlete who was a student of their sport and has studied all aspects of performance enhancement for many years. I certainly understood the science behind what I was taking and I can say the same for my coaches and my fellow training partners for the most part. Then again, track and field athletes are a bit more sophisticated than other athletes when it comes to training and diet/supplements.

 

[Discobolus]

BTW I think you mean creatine monohydrate

 

[EctopicFetus]

Disco, I get your frame of reference.

Then again, track and field athletes are a bit more sophisticated than other athletes when it comes to training and diet/supplements.

Let me 1st say that I am not trying to flame. Olympic T&F athletes are getting quite the shiner though with all the accusations out there of using "performance enhancers". Wondering what your thoughts on that are?

 

[EctopicFetus]

Perhaps I am using an older formulation which might date me some but creatine monophosphate is/was a supplement. Did a quick search and found this article from 1999.

http://www.fila.org/peak/creatineinfo.htm

Then again when I look on GNC it is creatine monohydrate (must be a newer formulation). As I said I am old!

 

[Discobolus]

Disco, I get your frame of reference.



Let me 1st say that I am not trying to flame. Olympic T&F athletes are getting quite the shiner though with all the accusations out there of using "performance enhancers". Wondering what your thoughts on that are?

Let just say that if professional football, basketball, and baseball tested for drugs as stringently as the IAAF/USATF do for track and field we would be talking about drug scandals in all three.

In their quest for a clean sport they stringently drug test with the desired results of catching the cheaters. Thing is every time someone gets caught it becomes a big media fiasco because of the major implications (4 year ban or lifetime ban), whereas the other sports don't air their dirty laundry and the punishments are a joke.

I'm also going to say that it is awfully suspect that when the NCAA came in to do "random" drug tests when I was in college that they would always "randomly" pick the throwers and sprinters on the track team. Guess who got picked on the football team...the punters and place kickers. What are the odds that out of a full roster of track athletes I was randomly picked for drug tests 2 out 3 years?

 

[Discobolus]

Perhaps I am using an older formulation which might date me some but creatine monophosphate is/was a supplement. Did a quick search and found this article from 1999.

http://www.fila.org/peak/creatineinfo.htm

Then again when I look on GNC it is creatine monohydrate (must be a newer formulation). As I said I am old!

I used creatine monohydrate as far back as 1994. I seem to remember some formulas that had creatine phosphate or phosphocreatine on the label so I'm sure you are correct.

I did an undergraduate thesis on creatine supplementation (started it at least) and had to read a bunch of the early studies, and some of them may have referred to it with phosphate attached to the word somewhere, I don't really recall though, that was 5 years ago.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I agree there is a lot more money on the line for the NCAA in football than in T&F hence the favoritism in the "random" (yeah right) drug testing. That being said I just want to say that Professional football players do get randomly tested YEAR round. This is perhaps the only major professional sport that really does serious testing. Of course basketball players are usually not the strongest so I doubt there is much of that going on. I will say I think that there is a goldmine in baseball last year over 5% tested positive. Hence the whole BALCO thing is blowing up with Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield etc.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Disc, So what is your take on Ritalin use in medical school? Cheating or not cheating? Im curious.. I think ex-athletes have a different perspective on this than the book worms in medical school.

 

[stoic]

Stoic, tell me you actually believe this and arent just trying to be sophistic? Take a step back, clear your mind, and read what you just wrote. Has our society degenerated so far as to make moral statements such as the one you just made acceptable?

I do think there are people out there who could could care less about the use of GH/steroids in sports. Particuarly pro sports, which have become more entertainment than "sport". I'm one of these people. I just don't care.

The implications of being okay with everything, though, create problems for everyone (even rabid liberals such as myself). I DO care about the integrity of the college sports and find doping by participants frustrating. But again, this is my take on the issue. There are almost certainly people out there who really don't care.

I'm not so crazy as to think that just because some people in the minority don't find an action objectionable that the action in question should become acceptable to the public at large. Morals and such exist as a measure of public values; that's not going to change. But I do feel strongly that the majority values/morals are often less than ideal and that any person should be under no obligation to hold or follow the values of another. After all, if there was no radical diversity in thought, social change simply couldn't happen.

In the end, it's an individual decision to break the law or to break commonly held moral code, or in the case of students using adderall, to do both. Personally, it doesn't bother me if students want to use adderall. I'll just keep drinking coffee and taking ephedrine.

Sophist? Only if someone is going to pay me 🙂

 

[Discobolus]

Football is doing a better job about testing, but the penalty pales in comparision to the bans in Olympic sports and they don't turn every drug test failure into a media circus.

As far as basketball goes I find it interesting that Shaq has had gynocomastia surgery.

 

[EctopicFetus]

As far as the penalties in football go at least pro athletes risk losing a considerable amount of income. Ill be the 1st to admit I havent the slightest clue what a top T&F star makes annually (I assume they make most of their money competing in europe) but a 1 yr suspension for a football player costs them around $1 Million (roughly the average pay in the NFL). Although they arent out for as long a period of time the cost is significant.

As far as Shaq goes it wouldnt surprise me but he seems to have too much body fat. My point was more geared to the fact that there are a ton of guys who are like 6'8" and 140 lbs (im exaggerating).

 

[Discobolus]

Disc, So what is your take on Ritalin use in medical school? Cheating or not cheating? Im curious.. I think ex-athletes have a different perspective on this than the book worms in medical school.

Just as I would have been pissed off if I found out that a competitor of mine in sports (at least the ones beating me) was using steroids, I'd also be pissed off if I found out that a classmate of mine (again at least the ones with higher grades than me) was using Ritalin.

I do recognize that it's not so clear cut where to draw the lines because there is really no such thing as an even playing field. I guess you have to decide what to allow and play the game (or school) within those rules.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Disc, we agree completely!

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Ok, all you guys who consider taking ritalin cheating, let me ask you something:

do you consider it cheating to take no doz or some other caffeinated product or drug?

do you consider it cheating to take a prep course for the MCAT?

do you consider it cheating to get a private admissions counselor to help with your apps?

do you consider it cheating to have someone proof read your PS?

why is one cheating and not the others?

perhaps i think it's all cheating but there will never ever be a fair playing field. you have to do what you think is right and know when you reach your goal whether you did it on your own integrity...and you have to be able to live with your own choices and decisions.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

"it is how one does the journey and not how they cross the finish line that makes the difference." 👍

absolutely true..a great message to lead your life by

 

[EctopicFetus]

Before I start answering this stuff I will admit that this is a fine line. That being said here goes nothing.

do you consider it cheating to take no doz or some other caffeinated product or drug?

No because anyone can get this drug and its effects are well understood.

do you consider it cheating to take a prep course for the MCAT?

do you consider it cheating to get a private admissions counselor to help with your apps?

do you consider it cheating to have someone proof read your PS?

why is one cheating and not the others?

None of these are cheating because they are available to everyone. I dont want to break the law (by taking a prescription medication I was not prescribed). I guess this is a moral issue. The above mentioned things are available to everyone. Ritalin is not. This is a fine line but nonetheless something to consider.

I only think it is wrong because if there is another person who does not want to risk injuring themselves (I assume you know the SEs of GH) they are at a disadvantage.

No Doz could be the only argument but I would argue that its effects arent as great as Ritalin.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

i'm only playing devil's advocate

they aren't all available to everyone...not everyone can afford a private tutor or course for the MCAT or an admission counselor to help them

and some consider it morally wrong to get such help or even to have someone read their PS

besides some people can get a MD to right them a real RX for ritalin or adderal..where do you draw the line of what is right and what is moally wrong or cheating?

 

[EctopicFetus]

I mentioned the $$$ factor previously. I would argue that we agree to a social contract (since we are a capitalist society vs a communist one). That being said we did not agree to allow individuals to obtain drugs illegally.

Additionally, people who cant afford private tutors (like myself) can get help from school services for free. I have tutored students who pay NO fee but the school paid me.

Also MDs dont "right" scrips they "write" scrips. Anyhow I would argue that this is an illegal action on the part of the MD. That being said I know it isnt that hard to get these meds from many MDs.

Morals come from our individual values. My morals might be very different from yours. My thinking is clear from my posts. As I said this isnt a major issue for me since I do well enough for me (not straight A's), I wont make AOA or any of that other fancy BS. But down the road I will have the journey to savor while others will have to think about the long term effects they might have to suffer and to realize that they are unable to compete on a level playing field.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

I think a previous poster had it right, when they said, "I think you're all on Ritalin [sp?] for writing so much."

You all need to get laid! Stop talking on this dumb-ass forum about autonomous-collective societies, and whether or not the devil's advocate takes ritalin him or her self.

Sheesh...

*Looks around carefully... Chases some ritalin with a bottle of vodka...* 🙄

 

[Samoa]

He could be using it nominally off-label. Mr. Molly has narcolepsy and was prescribed astounding amounts of Ritalin; we would have to call ahead to the pharmacy to warn them when we were refilling because they often wouldn't have enough in stock (generic Ritalin gave him headaches, so we had to use name-brand). We moved to Provigil two days after it was approved. We had to go to an independant pharmacy who would over-night it for us - Walgreens didn't even carry it yet.

I seem to remember his Ritalin dose being about as much as your customer.

That's true, back when I worked at a store in a neighborhood with lots of kids, the one or two narcoleptic patients did use substantially more Ritalin than ADHD patients. But there are better drugs for narcolepsy these days, so why isn't this person taking them? And new drugs for ADHD, which lack street value. Maybe this person tried them and they don't work. I didn't see them on the profile, though, and where I work we can see any prescription filled for anyone at any of our stores across the nation. So I'm not sure what the story is, but I definitely didn't know enough of it to fill the prescription without wondering in the back of my mind if it was being used legitimately.

Note: for those of you know me and are nervous, don't be. I never look at anyone's profile unless I have a prescription or a refill request for that person in front of me. It's tempting, but I wouldn't want anyone looking up my medical record just for kicks, despite the fact that it contains nothing I wouldn't talk about openly. So I have no idea if anyone I know has ever even been a customer, and if I did, I wouldn't tell anyway.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

way to pick up on my spelling/typo but ok point well taken...

anyway i actually have mixed feelings about all this. yea from a moral point of view i defintely agree that it's all wrong. but in a sense i'm also a hypocrit then...i have probably taken ritalin or adderal on a couple of desperate occasions after i had already pulled a couple of consecutive all-nighters..yea it was a set of bad circumstances necessitating tha tkind of schedule but it happens. i can justify tha ti *do* have difficulty concentrating due to a lot of issues going on and my psychiatrist has offered to write me a script, and who is to say whether he felt ineeded it. he knows me thru certain problems than almost anyone, and i also do volunteeer workfor him so he knows my work ethics and morals.

my point is i just don't think it's so black and white

and the same can say about prep courses versus getting free help on your own; it's not the same

hey there will never be a fair playing field but there isn't in life either....

 

[Psycho Doctor]

how about red bull the energy drink?

however i have heard of negative ramifications from some people who have used this product in conjunction with caffeine

 

[Psycho Doctor]

so what do you think of the use of amphetamines

what if someone has a weight problem and uses a prescription medication which just so happens to allow them to stay up longer hours and study better?

 

[EctopicFetus]

how about red bull the energy drink?

Part of my argument is that somethings are easily attainable and as such are fair game. Obtaining Ritalin w/o a script is against the law therefore there are those individuals who are put at a disadvantage because they dont want to break the law. Is it right to put someone at a disadvantage for OBEYING the law?

so what do you think of the use of amphetamines

what if someone has a weight problem and uses a prescription medication which just so happens to allow them to stay up longer hours and study better?

If there isnt a better method out there to lose weight then I would just accept it as a SE. That would be ok. Then again Americans need to get off their rear ends and find a gym or at the minimum walk a little bit.

way to pick up on my spelling/typo but ok point well taken...

anyway i actually have mixed feelings about all this. yea from a moral point of view i defintely agree that it's all wrong. but in a sense i'm also a hypocrit then...i have probably taken ritalin or adderal on a couple of desperate occasions after i had already pulled a couple of consecutive all-nighters..yea it was a set of bad circumstances necessitating tha tkind of schedule but it happens. i can justify tha ti *do* have difficulty concentrating due to a lot of issues going on and my psychiatrist has offered to write me a script, and who is to say whether he felt ineeded it. he knows me thru certain problems than almost anyone, and i also do volunteeer workfor him so he knows my work ethics and morals.

my point is i just don't think it's so black and white

and the same can say about prep courses versus getting free help on your own; it's not the same

hey there will never be a fair playing field but there isn't in life either....

I agree that things arent black and white. If they were this thread would be quite short. A topic like "Are the top students in your school smoking 1 qp of weed daily"? That would have like 2 posts and it would be over.

As far as your circumstances I understand, then again I think we all have been there. I am not here to judge you cause I have NO idea who you are or what you have been through. I too had some unfortunate circumstances pile up and I ended up getting some crappy grades on exams, I didnt take any medications. Oh well. Also, I dont think that adults who have trouble concentrating is enough criteria to get a Ritalin script. I mean for those of us who are med students dont we all have trouble concentrating? I mean I sure as hell do, especially if I am not under the gun. I have real trouble when it is nice outside and I am reading 6 weeks before an exam.

Well I think we flushed this issue out as much as we can. There was some solid back and forth going on here.

 

[Agent999]

First of all, some1 mentioned that using Ritalin is illegal because we are using it to enhance studying when it's meant for those we are suffering from ADD. So according to him, using a substance illegally is when you are not using it for its intended purpose. Now may I ask how is that different from drinking coffee to stay awake? Do you really think coffee was discovered in the first place to increase our heart rate, or for our purpose, to stay awake? Hell no. Coffee is consumed for its taste and aroma, similar to why other foods or drinks are chosen. The "staying awake" effect is merely an side effect. Therefore, by your logic, we are also drinking coffee illegally, when we are using it to pull all-nighters when we should be enjoying it with pleasure during a work-break. The fact that the effects of coffee is relatively mild because of the low concentration of caffeine does not change that.

Personally I think the reason why people here are sore about ritalin users is because they are bitter about the fact that other people are achieving the same academic standings as they are, but in an easily way. Well, that's life. If people are clever enough to think of an easy way out of solution, then they deserve the reward. If the law didnt issue ritalin as an illegal drug only to be used for therapeutic puposes (if it did, it would be no different from marijuana), then it ISNT illegal to take it. End of story.

Dont be wrong, I am no advocate of Ritalin myself. I believe in good morals. I believe success comes from hardwork, and that will always be true. Those who take Ritalin will suffer their own demise soon enough, when future workload in medicine becomes so daunting that drugs like these will not be sufficient, and only those who truly take it the long way will be able to handle it.

So to the fellow medstudents, who cares if your classmates are taking Ritalin. Let those smartasses take the damn drug, and get through their problems in the short run, but only to be damned in the long run and wish they had never taken the drug b4.

 

[Sancho]

A while back in this thread someone was joking about uber competitive students giving valium or some CNS depressant to the rest of the class...well I took xanax (knowingly and legally) for two weeks leading up to the neuro final and even took a big old dose before the exam. Tied for the best score in the class. Why? Willpower. If anyone doesn't have legitimate ADHD but thinks they need uppers to succeed, they are weak, frail, and need to get an as_kicking.

 

[gwyn779]

so what do you think of the use of amphetamines

Adderall is, in fact, a mixture of amphetamines (amphetamine salts, aka amphetamine + dextroamphetamine). Several of the arguments here have used Adderall and Ritalin interchangably.

Someone mentioned the newer drugs like Straterra and Concerta. Concerta is just long-acting Ritalin, so I think in these arguments it's the same thing.

Straterra is in fact the only non-stimulant drug approved for ADD/ADHD. (someone else said there weren't any that weren't stimulants) Actually, some other non-stimulant drugs are used off-label for adult ADD, like Wellbutrin and Effexor, though anecdotally stimulants work better. But that doesn't have much to do with the argument.

 

[TheFlash]

I can't believe I'm reading some of these posts. You should feel like a wuss just for taking Adderall. It means that you couldn't succeed by yourself. Your own self-esteem and confidence is lowered by taking this stuff, moral/legal arguments be damned. False merit will eventually catch up to you, whether you realize it or not. You'll always be a weak sauce who couldn't learn without a drug. Your self-doubt will eat you alive in the OR.

 

[ctaborda]

Well, sometimes I turn to Chocolate and Redbull to get me focused! 😛

M&M's does it for me.

Is this as bad? 😛

Carlos.

 

[iamhotok]

I am saying that night classes should be easier. as long as a person passes all usmle exams, and did his rotations, etc, i don't see a point for med. schools being so highly selective. there is no point. besides, an open door policy would help to lower the fees that doctors are charging, and it will also weed out those who are in this profession only for the money.

I am hot OK... the answer to your question has been pondered previously on this and other forums. The answer to your Question

is that in order to be well trained you have to see enough "pathology". This is the limiting factor for both residency and therefore for medical school admissions.

Could you imagine seeing a general surgeon who never performed a surgery you needed cause there were too many other surgeons there with him?

That being said I think a redistribution of wealth withing the medical profession needs to occur. Some specialties are way overpaid and others are underpaid. First give us some tort reform (thats a bigger priority for me) then we can talk about fixing the insurance system.

 

[iamhotok]

now this discussion get me so curious, how does it feel like after taking that medicine?

also i have never taken that red bull energy drink, either. how does it feel after u drink it?

 

[gwyn779]

I can't believe I'm reading some of these posts. You should feel like a wuss just for taking Adderall. It means that you couldn't succeed by yourself. Your own self-esteem and confidence is lowered by taking this stuff, moral/legal arguments be damned. False merit will eventually catch up to you, whether you realize it or not. You'll always be a weak sauce who couldn't learn without a drug. Your self-doubt will eat you alive in the OR.

What about people who actually have ADD and really can't learn effectively without a drug? Is that person a wuss?

I agree that taking stimulants illegally is wrong, especially if a person is already doing well (i.e. above the class average). But ADD is one of those things, like depression, that I really feel is both underdiagnosed and overdiagnosed. A lot of people use it as an excuse or whatever, while many of those that really have it go undiagnosed and untreated, partially because of the stigma created by those who take drugs and don't need them.

 

[rager1]

1. Please, talking about results without consulting the mechanism is worthless. The fact is, it is the MECHANISM that determines addiction and side effects. I dont think there's much more to say on that.

2. Medical ethics are inherently judicial. As soon as premeds start to think they are better than the law, that is where they begin to think they are gods. Sure, right now "Ritalin being illegal" is a "major bummer holding me down." But why stop there. I dont like paying taxes (no one does), and Im sure doctors have violated HIPAA (which is also a major drag in terms of paperwork). Violating the law for Ritalin is just the first step in many premeds thinking they are better than the law.

3. The legality/illegality of caffeine and amphetamines is wholly based on the mechanism, which you choosed to ignore, and the consequent side effects and addictive properties of the drug. A glass of wine can sedate you, but so can elephant tranquilizer or some other highly potent sedative. But to compare the two, it is truly apples and oranges.

4. So if someone wants to use Ritalin fine by your standards. I guess once they have deemed themselves above the law, a whole new world of once-illegal action is open to them. I mean, lets face it, Medicare is holding me down man, how can I pay for my brand new BMW and my freaking Hummer man. Maybe since Im above the law Ill go get some more $$$ to.

5. Ritalin abuse in and of itself is unethical in that it provides an unfair advantage to those who use it in the same way steroid use is unethical-- it inherently punishes those who follow the law . The legality of it has more to do with the nature of the drug itself. Perhaps the worst thing is that academic underachievers who use it never get the experience of having struggled to achieve something by themselves. But then again, if the law is keeping ya down man, just break it. That's the solution, right?

Gleevec, I agree with everything you have to say except your point #5. That point is predicated on the assumption that the success of all medical students is tied to the performance of their classmates. Maybe those medical schools that emphasize student class ranks are relevant to your point, but I'm of the opinion that the advantage reaped by these Ritalin-users is almost entirely personal. And I think the comparison against sports is flawed. Some drugs make for faster runners, but I have yet to see anyone make the analogous claim that Ritalin makes for better doctors (or medical students). However, if there is an analogous improvement, should that improvement be banned as readily as the improvements of a doped up runner? It's different. Without endorsing Ritalin use, it's clear to me that the public benefit of an "improved doctor" is greater than a faster runner. So I don't think it's as cut-and-dry a situation because medicine is not a competitive sport.

In my opinion, the strongest argument against Ritalin use is based on acknowledging that it's a potentially dangerous substance whose unregulated use increases health risks to students. Assuming Ritalin is effective at improving academic performance, more students will most likely adopt it as a must-have study aid. There should be a crack-down to prevent the growth of an epidemic, not to ensure fair competition or prevent the use of what some people call a cheating device.

--Rager