RO Orals in October cancelled

[evilbooyaa]

Does Rad Onc need ultra-high quality visual monitors for the purposes of an oral board exam?? How is the vast majority of what Rad Oncs do on oral boards significantly different from what ABS or Ophtho? Do we really need reading quality monitors in order to point out whatever anatomical structures and contouring is asked of rad onc residents?

Radiation Oncology should not have these be the limitations because these are not limitations for OUR field.

ABR should be for radiologists, and there should be a separate board for Radiation Oncology. WHY are we still under the umbrella of Radiology?

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[Gfunk6]

Does Rad Onc need ultra-high quality visual monitors for the purposes of an oral board exam?? How is the vast majority of what Rad Oncs do on oral boards significantly different from what ABS or Ophtho? Do we really need reading quality monitors in order to point out whatever anatomical structures and contouring is asked of rad onc residents?

Radiation Oncology should not have these be the limitations because these are not limitations for OUR field.

ABR should be for radiologists, and there should be a separate board for Radiation Oncology. WHY are we still under the umbrella of Radiology?

Going one step further, I (like many others) perform OLA maintenance of certification off of my smartphone. The image quality is perfectly fine. On modern day HD monitors all images will be crystal clear.

ABR could simply specify minimum hardware requirements. If I were facing a year delay in my oral examination, I would rather buy a new computer and get it done.

 

[scarbrtj]

Does Rad Onc need ultra-high quality visual monitors for the purposes of an oral board exam?? How is the vast majority of what Rad Oncs do on oral boards significantly different from what ABS or Ophtho? Do we really need reading quality monitors in order to point out whatever anatomical structures and contouring is asked of rad onc residents?

Radiation Oncology should not have these be the limitations because these are not limitations for OUR field.

ABR should be for radiologists, and there should be a separate board for Radiation Oncology. WHY are we still under the umbrella of Radiology?

Going one step further, I (like many others) perform OLA maintenance of certification off of my smartphone. The image quality is perfectly fine. On modern day HD monitors all images will be crystal clear.

ABR could simply specify minimum hardware requirements. If I were facing a year delay in my oral examination, I would rather buy a new computer and get it done.

Yeah "image quality concern in the exam" is a canard over here on the rad onc side. Very important people after all (and ASTRO retweeted this paper) say that the image quality of any 'ol "desktop computer, laptop, tablet, or mobile device" is proper for a physician, remote from the tx process, to deliver dangerous, high-dose RT. If it's good enough for clinical practice, it's good enough for an exam.

 

[medgator]

Going one step further, I (like many others) perform OLA maintenance of certification off of my smartphone. The image quality is perfectly fine. On modern day HD monitors all images will be crystal clear.

ABR could simply specify minimum hardware requirements. If I were facing a year delay in my oral examination, I would rather buy a new computer and get it done.

Cheaper than plane tickets, meals and hotel room I'm sure

 

[medgator]

ABR should be for radiologists, and there should be a separate board for Radiation Oncology. WHY are we still under the umbrella of Radiology?

Something about spineless and catfish comes to mind

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Something about spineless and catfish comes to mind

its just total lack of effort, like the field has been happy to just piggyback with rads because they have much larger numbers. Our small numbers also make it easy to ignore us as they do in that letter. It is like a butt sore they forget about and neglect.

why can’t we have our own boards and why has there been no serious effort to make this happen?

 

[scarbrtj]

"WHY are we still under the umbrella of Radiology?" Something about spineless and catfish comes to mind

WHY did Jon Cryer never leave Two and a Half Men? Why did Renfield never leave Dracula? Why did Pinky never leave the Brain?

 

[KHE88]

why can’t we have our own boards and why has there been no serious effort to make this happen?

Because we have no leadership.

The younger leaders have been too busy smelling their own farts and signalling their moral superiority on the Tweeter for shameless self-promotion while the older leaders have been pre-occupied with squeezing every last dime they can out of payors, minimizing rad onc labor costs, and diverting to themselves and the organizations they control.

How about maybe, just maybe, something in between young radical leftists who can't see the forest for the trees and old greedy exploitative a-holes?
Is that too much to ask?

 

[OTN]

We're just Pinky, you say? Well...

 

[RadOncLazers]

How would we put forward a movement to separate from the ABR? Does anybody have ideas?

 

[Carotenoid]

Something about spineless and catfish comes to mind

How would we put forward a movement to separate from the ABR? Does anybody have ideas?

Let's start by not paying this year's fees.

 

[Radonc90]

ABR mostly cares about radiologists.
RO is a step child.

Anyway, article on kevinmd about ABR fiasco from 2018...

A test taker’s worst nightmare became reality

Now, many residents are left with a failed board exam on their record. They must retake the exam next year.

www.kevinmd.com

 

[scarbrtj]

American Board of Radiology leadership meeting this week to mull virtual test-taking options

The discussion comes following intense pressure from numerous imaging interest groups, who last week implored the ABR to offer alternatives during the pandemic.

www.radiologybusiness.com

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Next communication, probably: "We have heard your voices and responded. We have rapidly developed a robust online methodology that allows for virtual test taking in a secure and fair manner. All previously scheduled examinations have been rescheduled to this virtual format, and will take place on Friday. Please ensure your hardware supports the platform in advance. We will be emailing a link and directions by Thursday evening at the latest. Best of luck to all our examinees."

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

VICTORY

 

[radOresident]

Except for those who still have to take the in-person exams in December. Why can't that be made virtual? Laziness on the part of ABR? Not only did they choose the dates that were by far the least popular with residents, but now they're continuing to plan on subjecting residents to what amounts to a medium sized indoor in-person gathering. And thus far I've seen no evidence to suggest that covid is going to be behind us by December.

Such a monumental failure of an organization.

 

[RadOncLazers]

I think it's pretty ridiculous that we are taking a board exam almost two years from graduation and being tested on subjects like "peds". Many of us have been practicing one or two disease sites this entire time. And haven't seen a peds case since PGY-2.

Why aren't we allowed to pick subject areas? Radiology gets to do this on their final board exam.

 

[scarbrtj]

View attachment 310707

VICTORY

 

[RadOncLazers]

I do not think that the RO oral exam being delayed to "the first half of next year" is a victory.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I think it's pretty ridiculous that we are taking a board exam almost two years from graduation and being tested on subjects like "peds". Many of us have been practicing one or two disease sites this entire time. And haven't seen a peds case since PGY-2.

Why aren't we allowed to pick subject areas? Radiology gets to do this on their final board exam.

It took:

[x] Global pandemic
[x] Shutdown of the country
[x] Over a hundred thousand Americans dead
[x] Unified letters from virtually every organization in RadOnc and Radiology
[x] Massive unrest on Twitter

...to even get this far.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in total agreement with you that the ABR is still abhorrent. I just didn't believe they would concede anything.

 

[seper]

So 2019 graduates will still have to take orals, presumably together with 2020 grads? May next year?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RadOncLazers]

So 2019 graduates will still have to take orals, presumably together with 2020 grads? May next year?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes. I'm assuming in May.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

None of these exams are happening. The virus is peaking again and many states reporting record new infections. How many of you really think the dec exams are happening at all? To cram into a covid infested room with some lady patting you in the crotch every-time you go for a leak then you put your fingers in an infected fingerprint reader? Not gonna happen!

 

[RadOncLazers]

Absolutely. I think the December date will be a wash and all writtens done virtually next year.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

None of these exams are happening. The virus is peaking again and many states reporting record new infections. How many of you really think the dec exams are happening at all? To cram into a covid infested room with some lady patting you in the crotch every-time you go for a leak then you put your fingers in an infected fingerprint reader? Not gonna happen!

I totally agree with you.

Time to abolish all exams except a single clinical written exam like 90% of specialties? That can be taken from home or at your hospital?

 

[metallica81788]

So I can start studying sometime between now and February 2021. K thx bye

 

[evilbooyaa]

Eh I think sticking with December clinicals/rad bio/physics is best of a bad situation. I think having orals online ASAP is still better than anything else.

Some folks aren't going to be happy regardless of what ABR does, seems like.

 

[Carotenoid]

I think it's pretty ridiculous that we are taking a board exam almost two years from graduation and being tested on subjects like "peds". Many of us have been practicing one or two disease sites this entire time. And haven't seen a peds case since PGY-2.

Why aren't we allowed to pick subject areas? Radiology gets to do this on their final board exam.

Peds must require a separate fellowship. It's like expecting adult heme oncs to treat peds.

 

[RadOncLazers]

Eh I think sticking with December clinicals/rad bio/physics is best of a bad situation. I think having orals online ASAP is still better than anything else.

Some folks aren't going to be happy regardless of what ABR does, seems like.

Except the orals will not happen until next mid next year. I called that phone number and it sounds like they have May dates reserved.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Except the orals will not happen until next mid next year. I called that phone number and it sounds like they have May dates reserved.

I suppose I mean 'as soon as ABR deems it able to do so'.

Yes, May 2021 virtually less than ideal, but better than May 2021 in person (along with all of class of 2020)?

 

[RadOncLazers]

Yes. Better than in person. Although given the ABR track record they will most likely totally mess up the exam and blame the test takers.

 

[radOresident]

Eh I think sticking with December clinicals/rad bio/physics is best of a bad situation. I think having orals online ASAP is still better than anything else.

Some folks aren't going to be happy regardless of what ABR does, seems like.

I guess I'm missing something - how is sticking with a December IN-PERSON test date the best of a bad situation? After what amounts to several acts of God to get the ABR to even concede that exams need to be virtual as it relates to coronavirus, do they honestly think the optics are good for keeping the December date in person?

They've had since February to start thinking about how to administer it virtually, if they can't get it figured out in the 10 months they had then they're even more worthless than previously thought. Not to mention all the issues mentioned above which will likely result in either 1) unsafe testing conditions when the time comes or 2) further delay, possibly requiring people to study for both writtens and orals at the same time.

The ABR is a joke and the leadership is nothing more than a waste of space and oxygen. They do not have our best interests at heart.

 

[KHE88]

None of these exams are happening. The virus is peaking again and many states reporting record new infections. How many of you really think the dec exams are happening at all? To cram into a covid infested room with some lady patting you in the crotch every-time you go for a leak then you put your fingers in an infected fingerprint reader? Not gonna happen!

To be fair, despite what the fake news tells you, the entire point of the lockdowns was to prevent overwhelming the hospital system with a surge when we didn't know how the rona was going to play out. That didn't happen and it didn't even come close to happening most everywhere. We have more data now and stuff is opening back up as it should. The point was never to prevent infections and eradicate the virus. And to that point, the logic of cancelling an oral exam a full year from now simply to keep people from getting the vid is absurd. We have to return to normal life and accept the possibility of infection.

The question is should we have ever had in person exams in the first place before everything got all ronafied? Shuold that be "normal life?" Of course not.
If it took fake news sky-is-falling-and-we-need-to-wear-masks-forever hysteria to get rid of making everyone fly to Louisville to have an in person chat in the age of iphones and fiber internet.... well fine.
Next question is why the chat at all? What type of competence does that test that a computerized exam can not? Acting?

 

[RadOncLazers]

To be fair, despite what the fake news tells you, the entire point of the lockdowns was to prevent overwhelming the hospital system with a surge when we didn't know how the rona was going to play out. That didn't happen and it didn't even come close to happening most everywhere. We have more data now and stuff is opening back up as it should. The point was never to prevent infections and eradicate the virus. And to that point, the logic of cancelling an oral exam a full year from now simply to keep people from getting the vid is absurd. We have to return to normal life and accept the possibility of infection.

The question is should we have ever had in person exams in the first place before everything got all ronafied? Shuold that be "normal life?" Of course not.
If it took fake news sky-is-falling-and-we-need-to-wear-masks-forever hysteria to get rid of making everyone fly to Louisville to have an in person chat in the age of iphones and fiber internet.... well fine.
Next question is why the chat at all? What type of competence does that test that a computerized exam can not? Acting?

I think that is an over simplification of the matter. You are correct that hospital utilization should be a driving determinant in reopening, but there are many other factors. Just looking at the very large spikes in new cases (including Arizona....) is alarming and could result in several new epicenters. Placing people (including older faculty) on airplanes and in hotel rooms together - all day - might not be the best idea.

Virtual examination could be implemented faster. I do agree that the exam is archaic and its overall relevance disputable.

 

[medgator]

Peds must require a separate fellowship. It's like expecting adult heme oncs to treat peds.

The idea, i think, is if in you're in bfe/boonies, you should be able to handle a peds case on your own.. seems entirely ridiculous to me in 2020

 

[RadOncLazers]

Radiologist in the boonies have to read ped cases.

It's absurd.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I guess I'm missing something - how is sticking with a December IN-PERSON test date the best of a bad situation? After what amounts to several acts of God to get the ABR to even concede that exams need to be virtual as it relates to coronavirus, do they honestly think the optics are good for keeping the December date in person?

They've had since February to start thinking about how to administer it virtually, if they can't get it figured out in the 10 months they had then they're even more worthless than previously thought. Not to mention all the issues mentioned above which will likely result in either 1) unsafe testing conditions when the time comes or 2) further delay, possibly requiring people to study for both writtens and orals at the same time.

The ABR is a joke and the leadership is nothing more than a waste of space and oxygen. They do not have our best interests at heart.

I am taking the ABR at face value that while they (finally) are going to do a virtual exam, they will not have the resources in place until sometime in the first half of 2021.

Because the alternative to a December in-person test is delaying clinical writtens and rad bio/physics for a full year (per ABR?).

Yes, Arizona and Dallas are getting hit hard now, but going for an in-person exam at Pearson in December is likely to be relatively low risk.

ABR has not been using the past 10 months on figuring out a way to do the exam virtually - they are only resorting to this because of the outrage, primarily over oral boards not being virtual.

So, I'm on board with the last paragraph, but I know that they were not 'planning on this', and thus do not have any progress made.

Kinda like when people criticize the US for re-opening lockdown without any of the steps of contact tracing in place in response to Coronavirus.

 

[ramsesthenice]

WHY did Jon Cryer never leave Two and a Half Men? Why did Renfield never leave Dracula? Why did Pinky never leave the Brain?

Technically Renfield tried to cross Dracula and we see how that ended. Think you it would go any better for the fool that tries to cross the ABR?

I’ll second what others have said: if your mad now wait till you show up to your “in person” computerized exam.

This affects test takers way more but they hosed a lot of us as well. They are going to need a lot more “volunteers” to serve as examiners when they get around to testing 2x as many people at once. Senior members will turn them down and we know which direction **** rolls...

 

[deleted941485]

It took:

[x] Global pandemic
[x] Shutdown of the country
[x] Over a hundred thousand Americans dead
[x] Unified letters from virtually every organization in RadOnc and Radiology
[x] Massive unrest on Twitter

...to even get this far.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in total agreement with you that the ABR is still abhorrent. I just didn't believe they would concede anything.

Just to get them to do a sensible thing that could have been accomplished years ago.

If you were holding out hope for any of these orgs to address oversupply, a part of you probably died today.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

The good news folks is i’m hearing that Paul Wallner shared his kentucky derby pie recipe after leaving Louisville. Most recently he has shared his mother’s chocolate mint brownie recipe, a closely held family secret, with other stake holders. What a sweet sugar daddy this guy is!

 

[scarbrtj]

Hmm.
Imagine a world where learners have never been to class. Where economic levels are falling. Where exam takers are no longer ranked, just pass fail... everybody gets a trophy. And all these people get into positions of, if not authority, relevance to one's life.
The Peter Principle is our future? Hope not.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Hmm.
Imagine a world where learners have never been to class. Where economic levels are falling. Where exam takers are no longer ranked, just pass fail... everybody gets a trophy. And all these people get into positions of, if not authority, relevance to one's life.
The Peter Principle is our future? Hope not.

This was fascinating to watch playing out on Twitter over the last 24-48 hours. The main complaint I saw was the proctor platform they chose was terrible, and proctors kept interrupting exam takers asking them to restart the platform.

How we can have so much technology and expertise at our disposal and still not appropriately adapt is beyond me (though...many Tweets indicated there were better proctor platforms and the ABS chose to go with the lowest bidder...).

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Hmm.
Imagine a world where learners have never been to class. Where economic levels are falling. Where exam takers are no longer ranked, just pass fail... everybody gets a trophy. And all these people get into positions of, if not authority, relevance to one's life.
The Peter Principle is our future? Hope not.

basically already happens in American police

 

[FreeRT]

Unbelievable the tweet went the same day as the scheduled exam. Poor Dr. Moffatt--this really sucks

 

[seper]

Career in medicine is tough. Dave, you better prepare for what is to come.

 

[metallica81788]

There is a petition going around for the surgeons, many of whom are starting fellowships now, to get letters from their PDs for certification (plus some other things I don't remember what - maybe case logs?) and to move on with their lives.

It would be great if we could do the same... At what point does taking an oral exam matter when we've passed three other exams and have been treating people in the real world for nearly two years?

 

[evilbooyaa]

There is a petition going around for the surgeons, many of whom are starting fellowships now, to get letters from their PDs for certification (plus some other things I don't remember what - maybe case logs?) and to move on with their lives.

It would be great if we could do the same... At what point does taking an oral exam matter when we've passed three other exams and have been treating people in the real world for nearly two years?

Surgeons do. Rad oncs complain. Simple as that, IMO.

If the surgeons actually get traction behind it I would fully support a similar proposition for the embattled RadOnc class of 2019, who after matching into Rad Onc at arguably the peak of its competitiveness, have been told that they are dumb by the leader of the ABR based on the RadBio/Physics board fiasco, and are now being strung along with unprecedented delay to oral boards. Wonder what PW will make the pass rate on the oral component.

 

[RadOncLazers]

Agree. I think that a similar movement makes sense. Step 2CS has been eliminated for students. We have been practicing for two years. The idea that most of us focus on 1 or 2 disease sites, and then have to go back and test two years later. Bare minimum we should just pick 2 or 3 sites to be tested.

 

[Doctorer]

Agree. I think that a similar movement makes sense. Step 2CS has been eliminated for students. We have been practicing for two years. The idea that most of us focus on 1 or 2 disease sites, and then have to go back and test two years later. Bare minimum we should just pick 2 or 3 sites to be tested.

Please stop saying this. I'm in academics, treating 1-2 sites, and I would be embarrassed to call myself "board certified" without passing a comprehensive exam. And yes, I'm willing to jump through the MOC hoops (unlike the grandfathered).

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Agree. I think that a similar movement makes sense. Step 2CS has been eliminated for students. We have been practicing for two years. The idea that most of us focus on 1 or 2 disease sites, and then have to go back and test two years later. Bare minimum we should just pick 2 or 3 sites to be tested.

Let's say, just for argument's sake, that orals will be the same level of difficulty with no slack given on grading, then can't we reasonably expect that there will be more failures this year due to delays whenever the boards take place, esp. given it will be virtual for the first time?

Cost of the exam better be way less and they need to have the same pass rate or else the outcry will be great. Knowing the luck this class has, there will be a historic 25% fail rate due to laggy connection or something like that and/or technical difficulties that won't allow the test to be completed just like our surgical colleagues. I know some of these examiners are not tech savvy and we all have had difficulty getting on and having zoom meetings with poor connections.