ROCR

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SK has left the building..



(tips hat, waves and steps out of Pleasantville aka SDN)

TIME TO WAKE UP LIKE IT OR NOT



I’m still here. Just logged on at 9:30 PM local time after a long day at work which was followed up by completing some charts and doing some contouring at home.

I also wanted to say hello to my family.

I hope you had a nice evening.
 
Quick question re: ROCR.

Set aside the specifics of the legislation for a second, and consider a more basic question.

It's obvious that ASTRO believes they have a clear mandate to pursue (or impose, depending on how you look at it) sweeping legislation on behalf of the entire specialty, but do the members/non-members with boots on the ground agree?

I’d love to hear from the folks in Cigna MA pilot

I’m very curious how their case rates compare vs ROCR.

Does anyone here know the answer to that question?
 
Just listened to Simul and Matt’s podcast, which I thought was great. Would like to add that there is no dichotomy in the interests of employed community docs and the majority of employed academic docs, even at pps exempt centers. Both will be harmed in terms of job mobility and promotions by the ROCR. Salaries pegged to any percentile will fall.

Within 6 months, we are going from the “workforce is healthy” to Simul speculating abt a radiation oncologist in 2040 treating 150 pts across 6 centers. (Yes, that may be hyperbole, but we get the idea). Simul also estimates pts on beam will be cut in half, which seems reasonable and obvious, and again knowing this, how could Astro simultaneously release that workforce report?

Astro is sick. Sure bundled payment may be best for society, but so is a balanced workforce that is not desperate to over treat due to oversupply. If astro does not support our interests, why would anyone want to be a member? Bizzare the lack of similar measures by other medical societies?

Senior astro leaders and presidents repeatedly lie to medstudents “that the future is bright” (presumably for the medstudent).
 
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Thanks for listening!

That's a fair point about no dichotomy. I guess my concern is that when I talk to academic folks I don't feel we are on same page. I had a long conversation with one that wanted to know "why are you all so mad" and basically he had no concerns, felt we were doing fine and completely dismissed what I had to say. He works harder than me, earns less but thinks it is fine. I cannot convince these people, but they are not my target audience.

The one doc : 6 centers - it's a WAG, but by 2040, I'd predict that there's a 50% chance of that happening.

Beam numbers in half + no weekly notes + no supervision = disaster. Sameer never got back to me on that one 🙂

Fun to record, hope others listen and comment.
 
Thanks for listening!

That's a fair point about no dichotomy. I guess my concern is that when I talk to academic folks I don't feel we are on same page. I had a long conversation with one that wanted to know "why are you all so mad" and basically he had no concerns, felt we were doing fine and completely dismissed what I had to say. He works harder than me, earns less but thinks it is fine. I cannot convince these people, but they are not my target audience.

The one doc : 6 centers - it's a WAG, but by 2040, I'd predict that there's a 50% chance of that happening.

Beam numbers in half + no weekly notes + no supervision = disaster. Sameer never got back to me on that one 🙂

Fun to record, hope others listen and comment.

Is it denial or just they simply have no interest in such things outside their immediate scope?
 
Thanks for listening!

That's a fair point about no dichotomy. I guess my concern is that when I talk to academic folks I don't feel we are on same page. I had a long conversation with one that wanted to know "why are you all so mad" and basically he had no concerns, felt we were doing fine and completely dismissed what I had to say. He works harder than me, earns less but thinks it is fine. I cannot convince these people, but they are not my target audience.

The one doc : 6 centers - it's a WAG, but by 2040, I'd predict that there's a 50% chance of that happening.

Beam numbers in half + no weekly notes + no supervision = disaster. Sameer never got back to me on that one 🙂

Fun to record, hope others listen and comment.
I can link you to a lot of academics (junior/midlevel) who dislike the idea and Astro. All are Astro members beacause cant rock the boat, and there are few opportunities for lateral movement, which almost always involves uprooting family. Would be interesting to hear Neuronix’s take?
 
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Within 6 months, we are going from the “workforce is healthy” to Simul speculating abt a radiation oncologist in 2040 treating 150 pts across 6 centers. (Yes, that may be hyperbole, but we get the idea). Simul also estimates pts on beam will be cut in half, which seems reasonable and obvious, and again knowing this, how could Astro simultaneously release that workforce report?

This is not necessarily a bad thing. However, combined with the current level of resident training it is an absolute disaster and will decimate physician compensation and leverage with hospital systems destroying our professional and personal life autonomy. We will become PAs where we produce 1M for the system but are only paid a tiny fraction of this.

We are talking about record levels of radiation oncologists in the US, especially early career radiation oncologists and we are talking about at the same time dramatically reducing the number of hours a radiation oncologist is needed. It is like immigration politics. You can have a welfare state or you can have open borders. You cannot have both.

ASTRO needs to address the resident number issue. This is #1 priority threat facing our field, not CMS cuts. Not even close.
 
This is not necessarily a bad thing. However, combined with the current level of resident training it is an absolute disaster and will decimate physician compensation and leverage with hospital systems destroying our professional and personal life autonomy. We will become PAs where we produce 1M for the system but are only paid a tiny fraction of this.

We are talking about record levels of radiation oncologists in the US, especially early career radiation oncologists and we are talking about at the same time dramatically reducing the number of hours a radiation oncologist is needed. It is like immigration politics. You can have a welfare state or you can have open borders. You cannot have both.

ASTRO needs to address the resident number issue. This is #1 priority threat facing our field, not CMS cuts. Not even close.

Has ACRO ever put out its own workforce study?
 
Just listened to Simul and Matt’s podcast, which I thought was great. Would like to add that there is no dichotomy in the interests of employed community docs and the majority of employed academic docs, even at pps exempt centers. Both will be harmed in terms of job mobility and promotions by the ROCR. Salaries pegged to any percentile will fall.

Thanks for listening! I love when people give feedback or expand upon what we said. I learn so much from making the episodes and the feedback that comes after is a big source of that.

Still trying to wrap my head around it, but I think the dichotomy is early versus mid- to late-career. The experience is much different.

Has ACRO ever put out its own workforce study?

I dont think so. The study completed by the consulting group is not bad in my opinion.

We are planning a podcast where we will discuss the study in great detail with a couple individuals who worked on it. We are waiting for IJROBP letters to drop to help add context to the show. They have been sitting on them for at least a couple of months, it is so annoying. Love me some academic publishing!

My issue is the way it was interpreted and presented by ASTRO. It felt like they put it out, said "things are balanced" and walked away.

People can nerd out about the details of the study but it will always have the limitation that no one can really predict the future.

ASTRO could have done a lot more to make early career people feel like they are supporting a healthy occupation going forward.
 
ASTRO needs to address the resident number issue. This is #1 priority threat facing our field, not CMS cuts. Not even close.

100% agree.

I'm (currently) a dues-paying, committee-volunteering member of ASTRO. I understand ASTRO cannot force residencies to close or compel programs to decrease their resident complement, but ignoring/not addressing what I see as the ongoing implosion of our specialty is simply not an option. Why is it an implosion? Five years of SOAP, with more and more docs produced every year, with fewer fractions to go around.

To me, this isn't about growing or even maintaining RO salaries. This is about speaking up for cancer patients who deserve competent, highly-trained professionals to deliver curative or palliative treatments. SOAPing in med students who can't get into their preferred specialty is bad for patients and bad for the specialty, but putting young docs through training that won't lead to meaningful employment is also a terrible outcome for our specialty, for the house of medicine, and I would argue, society at large.

If ASTRO cannot advocate for these early-career docs, who will?

I don't want to see ASTRO die. I want to see ASTRO help our specialty survive and thrive. ROCR may be an effort in that direction (even if there are flaws), but I believe the workforce issue will the defining issue of RO for the next decade.

ASTRO can walk and chew gum. ASTRO can fight for payment stabilization and call out the very serious issue of trainee oversupply. It's time to do both.

Options potentially include making a position statement about workforce concerns beyond 2030 (aside from the *shrug* included in the workforce study), outlining recommended changes to 'improve the quality of training' (necessitating the closure of smaller/understaffed programs), or having a series of Red Journal op-eds essentially calling out under-performing residencies. This isn't market collusion. This is describing reality. ASTRO just has to have the political will to do so.

I'm voted for SK, and look forward to his leadership. I'm glad he came to mingle with this particular group of basement dwellers. I'm hopeful this is the start of a real conversation on oversupply and what can realistically be done about it. I appreciate that he is coming here to listen and discuss.

I'm hopeful that October 2023 will be the start of a turn-around. If not, I'll join the ranks of ex-ASTRO members who feel unheard despite loving their job and their patients.
 
I do not believe that there is nothing that can be done to solve the problem of academic systems overtraining.

If ASTRO truly can do nothing, then what good are they at all?

I fully understand that the academics don't think this is an issue or don't care. It doesn't affect them. In fact, the more residents, the better. Academic systems can hire myriad rad oncs, pay them a primary care salary, make them show up M-F 8-5 even though they only have 10 or less on treatment, and be totally fine. They have expressed their disdain for community practice physicians for decades. If ASTRO is giving them a preferential ear, then of course they have no interest in fixing the biggest threat to the rest of us. It's our just punishment for leaving the bubble and being to lazy/greedy to do the real work and publish.

I remember very clearly when I started residency. Our chair said "I expect all of our residents to go into academics." Not some, ALL. What other field is this delusional/sick? Of course we all nodded and said, yes sir, I look forward eagerly to a career of endless meetings, pointless throwaway article publishing, and sensitivity training modules from the university.

So I have never felt a need to join ASTRO. They don't represent me. They represent the people who resent me. And I know what they're going to say: You're just the pot calling the kettle black. You resent the academics. Well, they started it.
 
“The one doc : 6 centers - it's a WAG, but by 2040, I'd predict that there's a 50% chance of that happening.”

That is effectively the same thing as saying that todays residents will have a 50% chance of unemployment 10-15 years into their career.

7t2o3n.jpg
 
I do not believe that there is nothing that can be done to solve the problem of academic systems overtraining.

If ASTRO truly can do nothing, then what good are they at all?

I think the membership deserves more discussion of this issue and what ASTRO can and cannot do.

I've asked about this on committee. The response I always got was that their lawyer is advising that ASTRO cannot comment at all. I personally don't think thats true. I've seen other societies make official comment on workforce issues either through reps, at conferences, or through official journals (radiology, emergency medicine).

I am not a lawyer, but she is, maybe she could address the membership and give an expanded answer on this issue. Right now it very much feels like chairs are hiding behind a lame excuse in order to continue to fill programs due to well known incentives.
 
I do not believe that there is nothing that can be done to solve the problem of academic systems overtraining.

If ASTRO truly can do nothing, then what good are they at all?

I fully understand that the academics don't think this is an issue or don't care. It doesn't affect them. In fact, the more residents, the better. Academic systems can hire myriad rad oncs, pay them a primary care salary, make them show up M-F 8-5 even though they only have 10 or less on treatment, and be totally fine. They have expressed their disdain for community practice physicians for decades. If ASTRO is giving them a preferential ear, then of course they have no interest in fixing the biggest threat to the rest of us. It's our just punishment for leaving the bubble and being to lazy/greedy to do the real work and publish.

I remember very clearly when I started residency. Our chair said "I expect all of our residents to go into academics." Not some, ALL. What other field is this delusional/sick? Of course we all nodded and said, yes sir, I look forward eagerly to a career of endless meetings, pointless throwaway article publishing, and sensitivity training modules from the university.

So I have never felt a need to join ASTRO. They don't represent me. They represent the people who resent me. And I know what they're going to say: You're just the pot calling the kettle black. You resent the academics. Well, they started it.

I guess I’m in the ASTRO can’t and won’t do anything about over training. theyll can do is basically increase the length of training maybe 5-6 years plus make them do additional training but not in anything they can you know use to market themselves
 
I think the membership deserves more discussion of this issue and what ASTRO can and cannot do.

I've asked about this on committee. The response I always got was that their lawyer is advising that ASTRO cannot comment at all. I personally don't think thats true. I've seen other societies make official comment on workforce issues either through reps, at conferences, or through official journals (radiology, emergency medicine).

I am not a lawyer, but she is, maybe she could address the membership and give an expanded answer on this issue. Right now it very much feels like chairs are hiding behind a lame excuse in order to continue to fill programs due to well known incentives.
ASTRO sticking by the “thought crime” of even discussing oversupply was nuts. The policy/behavior is one of the best examples of Orwellian newspeak I have encountered to this day. And there’s a lot of crazy sh** in the world but this one right here is up there.
 
I've asked about this on committee. The response I always got was that their lawyer is advising that ASTRO cannot comment at all. I personally don't think thats true.

This has about as much honesty to it as a hospital CEO saying "we would like to pay you more but we would be breaking Stark Law."

Is talking about oversupply breaking Stark law too? Oh almost definitely. I am just a physician. Far too stupid to understand something like Stark law.
 
This has about as much honesty to it as a hospital CEO saying "we would like to pay you more but we would be breaking Stark Law."

Is talking about oversupply breaking Stark law too? Oh almost definitely. I am just a physician. Far too stupid to understand something like Stark law.
In no other business is there such a thing as Stark law. It’s just called “business.”
 
ASTRO sticking by the “thought crime” of even discussing oversupply was nuts. The policy/behavior is one of the best examples of Orwellian newspeak I have encountered to this day. And there’s a lot of crazy sh** in the world but this one right here is up there.

100%

If people haven't, it is worth reading Carmody's coverage of this whole issue. It's a fascinating story and disheartening in the usual way of the politics of medicine.


My question for ASTRO lawyer would be why they cant comment on the match due to anti-trust, but their little SCAROP salary data anti-trust cartel seems cool. 🤷‍♂️

I know the answer, but I want someone to admit it!
 
100%

If people haven't, it is worth reading Carmody's coverage of this whole issue. It's a fascinating story and disheartening in the usual way of the politics of medicine.


My question for ASTRO lawyer would be why they cant comment on the match due to anti-trust, but their little SCAROP salary data anti-trust cartel seems cool. 🤷‍♂️

I know the answer, but I want someone to admit it!
You could always talk to an independent anti trust lawyer.

Let me get this straight. There can be no discussion of how to adjust the training pipeline to workforce needs but that's anti-free market, but the ONLY way to become a gainfully employed radiation oncologist is through the AGCME and paying the ABR. And if you want to start your own practice, you need to get a "certificate of need" that the academic center will sue to prevent you from obtaining. OK, asssholes.
 
In fact, the more residents, the better. Academic systems can hire myriad rad oncs, pay them a primary care salary, make them show up M-F 8-5 even though they only have 10 or less on treatment, and be totally fine.

This is happening TODAY.

There are some places where you ask aloud why there are 3-4 rad onc FTE’s for an academic satellite, when there’s 1 FTE of patients with a single LINAC, and you get some nonsensical answer.

Oh and the pay is crap and the schedule is full time, while the academic system is raking in pps exempt monies.
 
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This is happening TODAY.

There are some places where you ask aloud why there are 3-4 rad onc FTE’s for an academic satellite, when there’s 1 FTE of patients with a single LINAC, and you get some nonsensical answer.

Oh and the pay is crap and the schedule is full time, while the academic system is rising in pps exempt monies.

I was an engineer before I went to med school. One of the major reasons I did was because (besides building weapons to pointlessly kill civilians to enrich my defense contractor employer) I had about one hour of work to do per day (if that) but was required to show up from 8-5 every day anyway and sit there with nothing to do. It was soul crushing.

I talked to an academic system once about a satellite position with exactly the situation described. I told the chair they were overstaffed but I would be happy to come in 3 days a week if they really wanted to hire. She could have simply said "no thanks" but instead she became literally angry and sent me a page long email explaining that my request was unprofessional, that this was a full-time position and that she had never encountered somebody so entitled as me that I thought I could "trick" them into paying me full-time for part-time work (it was below 25%-tile salary, so sure lady "full time salary" sure) and that I would no longer be considered there ever again. I wrote back and said, you don't have enough work to support me being clinically busy for 40 hours a week, thank you for the consideration but I am not interested in having to be physically present if there is nothing to do. I got a one line response, all caps that said "WE WORK 5, FIVE, DAYS A WEEK HERE" Well you have an interesting definition of "work."

So we've come full circle if that's the way it's going to be. I didn't spend a decade in training to punch a clock. I could have kept on making bombs one hour a day and have a much fatter 401k right now.
 
I was an engineer before I went to med school. One of the major reasons I did was because (besides building weapons to pointlessly kill civilians to enrich my defense contractor employer) I had about one hour of work to do per day (if that) but was required to show up from 8-5 every day anyway and sit there with nothing to do. It was soul crushing.

I talked to an academic system once about a satellite position with exactly the situation described. I told the chair they were overstaffed but I would be happy to come in 3 days a week if they really wanted to hire. She could have simply said "no thanks" but instead she became literally angry and sent me a page long email explaining that my request was unprofessional, that this was a full-time position and that she had never encountered somebody so entitled as me that I thought I could "trick" them into paying me full-time for part-time work (it was below 25%-tile salary, so sure lady "full time salary" sure) and that I would no longer be considered there ever again. I wrote back and said, you don't have enough work to support me being clinically busy for 40 hours a week, thank you for the consideration but I am not interested in having to be physically present if there is nothing to do. I got a one line response, all caps that said "WE WORK 5, FIVE, DAYS A WEEK HERE" Well you have an interesting definition of "work."

So we've come full circle if that's the way it's going to be. I didn't spend a decade in training to punch a clock. I could have kept on making bombs one hour a day and have a much fatter 401k right now.
Gosh I wish you could tell us who it is
 
This is happening TODAY.

There are some places where you ask aloud why there are 3-4 rad onc FTE’s for an academic satellite, when there’s 1 FTE of patients with a single LINAC, and you get some nonsensical answer.

Oh and the pay is crap and the schedule is full time, while the academic system is raking in pps exempt monies.

The crazy thing is that this is happening today and the people involved don't even see it sometimes. No one teaches about this stuff and some trainees/early career people are told its bad to think or talk about the business of medicine including their own livelihood.

My practice just dealt with this FTE issue in a system wide corporate restructuring. Id guess maybe half the group understood why the FTEs were an issue. It was obvious that the level of worry was inversely correlated with experience level; our most senior partner could retire if he didnt like his offer. Everything worked out great, but that is essentially due to exceptional advocacy from our practice leader and a friendly hospital administration. Maybe a little luck. Maybe other things too, but certainly its out of my control and I dont have much leverage to advocate for myself in this situation.

Im certainly not going to pay $700 annually to support some individuals working against me from the inside as medicine changes. Nuts.
 
She could have simply said "no thanks" but instead she became literally angry and sent me a page long email explaining that my request was unprofessional, that this was a full-time position and that she had never encountered somebody so entitled as me that I thought I could "trick" them into paying me full-time for part-time work (it was below 25%-tile salary, so sure lady "full time salary" sure) and that I would no longer be considered there ever again.

Ayyyyyyy, "unprofessional" there it is again.

Nothing shows someone's true colors more than when they cry professionalism. Always seems to be the same types of people too.
 
This is happening TODAY.

There are some places where you ask aloud why there are 3-4 rad onc FTE’s for an academic satellite, when there’s 1 FTE of patients with a single LINAC, and you get some nonsensical answer.

Oh and the pay is crap and the schedule is full time, while the academic system is raking in pps exempt monies.
Here is the sick truth: because it motivates over treatment! treating just several extraneous prostate pts per year can more than cover a salary. a chair of a pps exempt center said this to my face (with a smile) when I asked why we were hiring, when all faculty had 10-15 pts-or less- on beam (10+ years ago). His answers was something like more doctors would beat the bushes for more birds.
 
Still have the email. It's tempting but not worth it right now. It's kind of sad that this could be basically any of them.
Not unheard of, I’ve experienced some toxic folks but just be glad you’re not working with or “under” her.
 
I was an engineer before I went to med school. One of the major reasons I did was because (besides building weapons to pointlessly kill civilians to enrich my defense contractor employer) I had about one hour of work to do per day (if that) but was required to show up from 8-5 every day anyway and sit there with nothing to do. It was soul crushing.

I talked to an academic system once about a satellite position with exactly the situation described. I told the chair they were overstaffed but I would be happy to come in 3 days a week if they really wanted to hire. She could have simply said "no thanks" but instead she became literally angry and sent me a page long email explaining that my request was unprofessional, that this was a full-time position and that she had never encountered somebody so entitled as me that I thought I could "trick" them into paying me full-time for part-time work (it was below 25%-tile salary, so sure lady "full time salary" sure) and that I would no longer be considered there ever again. I wrote back and said, you don't have enough work to support me being clinically busy for 40 hours a week, thank you for the consideration but I am not interested in having to be physically present if there is nothing to do. I got a one line response, all caps that said "WE WORK 5, FIVE, DAYS A WEEK HERE" Well you have an interesting definition of "work."

So we've come full circle if that's the way it's going to be. I didn't spend a decade in training to punch a clock. I could have kept on making bombs one hour a day and have a much fatter 401k right now.
Initials are LK
 
Sitting around and staring into middle distance would be absolute hell on Earth for me. I'd rather be busy managing a Wal-Mart or Buccee's than be doing literally nothing with my time. Good for you for sticking to your guns on that one.
 
Sitting around and staring into middle distance would be absolute hell on Earth for me. I'd rather be busy managing a Wal-Mart or Buccee's than be doing literally nothing with my time. Good for you for sticking to your guns on that one.

225k+ for Buccee's manager,



OR

4 years of med school, 300k in tuition, 5 years of residency, 4 board exams. How greedy and lazy we are.

What a kick in the teeth!
 
225k+ for Buccee's manager,



OR

4 years of med school, 300k in tuition, 5 years of residency, 4 board exams. How greedy and lazy we are.

What a kick in the teeth!

With overtime, you can break 200k plus all those city benefits as a lead rat killer in nyc

 
With overtime, you can break 200k plus all those city benefits as a lead rat killer in nyc


Probably society and both professions would be better served if 50% of the rad oncs in NYC did a lateral career/salary move to rat killers.

I bet the rat killers are not spending most of their duty hours staring into space.

 
The food and the restrooms at Buc-ee’s are much better than a typical hospital or cancer center.

Buc-ee’s is a chain of small town gas station convenience stores.
 
225k+ for Buccee's manager,



OR

4 years of med school, 300k in tuition, 5 years of residency, 4 board exams. How greedy and lazy we are.

What a kick in the teeth!

I've actually seen this exact sign, and strongly considered applying. Thought I'd probably be unqualified though.
 
I find myself a connoisseur of regional things, having lived in many areas.

And yet, have not been to this magical Buc eees
 
20 years ago, life in freestanding centers was incredible. I still think it’s good today, but if you compare it to 20 years ago, clearly, it’s not as good. Conversely, things are pretty good in the hospital setting today. Much better than they were 20 years ago. The pendulum always goes back-and-forth. But it’s hard to Accept that when you’re in the midst of a timeframe where it’s not as great to be in private practice as it was in the past. I do get that.
That's a fair point about no dichotomy. I guess my concern is that when I talk to academic folks I don't feel we are on same page. I had a long conversation with one that wanted to know "why are you all so mad" and basically he had no concerns, felt we were doing fine and completely dismissed what I had to say.
I'll join the ranks of ex-ASTRO members who feel unheard despite loving their job and their patients.
There is not a simple narrative regarding disgruntled PP docs. (I would argue that PP is a bit of a misnomer at this point, as the vast majority of community docs are employed or on a PSA with one or more community hospitals).

Very few of us on this board ever experienced PP life as it was 20 years ago or compensation commensurate to what many of those docs had. Very few of us have ever had technical buy in.

Nearly all of us are grateful for our jobs, the relative control we have over our hours and our income. Many of us, who have been in practice a decade or more, have seen real income decrease year over year and very few of us in the community are looking at meaningful increases in income for the rest of our careers.

Some of us do not have the pro fee collections to constitute a good salary, even by academic standards. Some of this is because of low volumes at community centers. Some of this is because of payor mix. (A practice in certain states with overwhelming Medicare coverage is much different than a typical payor mix/remuneration per patient at a large academic place). In my case, I am propped up by a favorable location and see more patients with less professional revenue. If fractionation SOC had remained stable relative to 2013, we would likely have 40-50+ patients on beam per doc.

I believe that the number of folks out there adamantly opposed to case based payment is small. (We have to do our own appeals and deal with our own payment rejections in the community). Admin in the community often overemphasizes rejections while underemphasizing total revenue. Most of us want to pick to technique, fractionation and imaging that we think best serves the patient. Again, the technical owning crowd is small.

I am going to provide a hypothetical career (take the word hypothetical as you wish) that I believe likely represents to some degree a lot of folks out there (or here).

You match into radonc in the late 2000s or early 2010s and your residency cohort is absolutely baller. Standards of research productivity during and progressively even before residency become absurd. You and most of your colleagues have some intrinsic and authentic interest in academic medicine and significant past research productivity.

During residency you notice the following:
1. Emergence of a revolution in systemic therapy (starts with the ipi melanoma trial and the grab bag single agent anti-PD1 drug trials).

2. Your residency getting bigger (depending on exact timing). Goes from 2 to 3-4 residents per year.

3. Cohorts of residents get stronger (on paper at least) or remaining very strong year after year.

4. Satellite docs are busy and relatively small in number. They are typically really good and also a bit disrespected by the system and sometimes main site docs. It's not the aspirational career that the main site is selling.

During your job search you notice:
1. It's competitive out there, and the market has definitely softened from 5-10 years earlier, when many grads were offered spots at the home site and there was even an opportunity to get back into academics from PP. Maybe you were chief or considered good clinically, but for academic jobs, number one is having your chair in your pocket and number two is number of pubs or funding history. If you are limiting yourself geographically for family, you have to get damn lucky. You are competing with folks who already had funding history and a research trajectory established before they ever set foot in residency.

You take the community job you get that is best for family based on location. You would have probably taken an offer from your home institution or any regional academic place, but none was offered. You were smart enough not to pursue satellite academics (or maybe not).

**You may have peaked at your ascendant chair's CV and realized that they had one publication in total a year after residency.

During your career to date you notice:
1. Indications and fractionation keep dropping and dropping and dropping. You were a fairly early adopter of moderately hypo breast and succumb to cultural pressure to hypo prostate. You offer SBRT for everything but liver and pancreas in the community. There is some uptick in SBRT volume during your career, but everything else is decreasing on a per capita basis. You enroll in collaborative group clinical trials and some of these are radiation exclusion trials. You are now treating 5 fraction breast APBI often. Your enthusiasm for oligometastatic treatment is getting more refined (and treatment less reflexive) as data emerges. Oligoprogressive lung...yes. Oligoprogressive breast....maybe not. While there have some technical advances in your practice (RA almost everything, Filter Free tx, GEUD planning at times), you have no delusions that any of these advances are impacting survival. Doing some TNT for rectal is the most progressive thing you have done in the past 10 years.

2. Systemic therapy has gone bonkers. SOC for locally advanced breast cancer has changed 5+ times and by molecular type in the past several years. IO is used for everything. There are multiple targeted agents for many solid tumor sites. With the aging population, blood dyscrasias and other volume becomes overwhelming for medonc. Your medonc partner practice has doubled in size, while your practice has stayed the same.

3. Your regional medonc colleagues at major academic places respect you and view you as interchangeable for their patients relative to in-house radonc. Your regional radonc academic colleagues try to retain patients unnecessarily and tout their preferential value even for routine cases (palliative brain and bone).

4. You may have had to hire once. You had a glut of interest and excellent applicants. No problem hiring an excellent doc from a name brand place. Plenty of early career academic folks considering a change.

5. If you are involved in admin, you may have to help recruit for medonc. You are now offering J-1 visa candidates straight from a community medonc fellowship more than you or your radonc partners are making. They are not biting. They are able to get jobs in fairly large metros.

6. Your personal lateral mobility is very, very poor. No hopes at hometown. Would have to be a national search (or at least a very large regional search) for anyone. This is unique to your field.

7. Your colleagues a few years after you had it worse. Asked to do a fellow-ship to get an academic track job. Took an underworked satellite job.

So you take stock:
You have no problems getting out the door for work and you are grateful for your life. But....you would not recommend the field to anyone young. You are not excited about the new things that you are going to be doing for the rest of your career or the active learning you are going to have to do to stay up-to-date. (We could all answer all those OLA questions out of residency). You know some of the leadership in the field and you view them as careerists at this point. Loyal to their institutions and interests and not terribly interested in taking an honest look at the field. You find it preposterous that there was ever residency expansion like in circa 2010 and that there has not been a correction since.

You quit ASTRO, you put your head down and work, you try to do your part to help keep your community hospital afloat and you occasionally bitch, talk about clinical cases, science and culture on SDN!
 
There is not a simple narrative regarding disgruntled PP docs. (I would argue that PP is a bit of a misnomer at this point, as the vast majority of community docs are employed or on a PSA with one or more community hospitals).

Very few of us on this board ever experienced PP life as it was 20 years ago or compensation commensurate to what many of those docs had. Very few of us have ever had technical buy in.

Nearly all of us are grateful for our jobs, the relative control we have over our hours and our income. Many of us, who have been in practice a decade or more, have seen real income decrease year over year and very few of us in the community are looking at meaningful increases in income for the rest of our careers.

Some of us do not have the pro fee collections to constitute a good salary, even by academic standards. Some of this is because of low volumes at community centers. Some of this is because of payor mix. (A practice in certain states with overwhelming Medicare coverage is much different than a typical payor mix/remuneration per patient at a large academic place). In my case, I am propped up by a favorable location and see more patients with less professional revenue. If fractionation SOC had remained stable relative to 2013, we would likely have 40-50+ patients on beam per doc.

I believe that the number of folks out there adamantly opposed to case based payment is small. (We have to do our own appeals and deal with our own payment rejections in the community). Admin in the community often overemphasizes rejections while underemphasizing total revenue. Most of us want to pick to technique, fractionation and imaging that we think best serves the patient. Again, the technical owning crowd is small.

I am going to provide a hypothetical career (take the word hypothetical as you wish) that I believe likely represents to some degree a lot of folks out there (or here).

You match into radonc in the late 2000s or early 2010s and your residency cohort is absolutely baller. Standards of research productivity during and progressively even before residency become absurd. You and most of your colleagues have some intrinsic and authentic interest in academic medicine and significant past research productivity.

During residency you notice the following:
1. Emergence of a revolution in systemic therapy (starts with the ipi melanoma trial and the grab bag single agent anti-PD1 drug trials).

2. Your residency getting bigger (depending on exact timing). Goes from 2 to 3-4 residents per year.

3. Cohorts of residents get stronger (on paper at least) or remaining very strong year after year.

4. Satellite docs are busy and relatively small in number. They are typically really good and also a bit disrespected by the system and sometimes main site docs. It's not the aspirational career that the main site is selling.

During your job search you notice:
1. It's competitive out there, and the market has definitely softened from 5-10 years earlier, when many grads were offered spots at the home site and there was even an opportunity to get back into academics from PP. Maybe you were chief or considered good clinically, but for academic jobs, number one is having your chair in your pocket and number two is number of pubs or funding history. If you are limiting yourself geographically for family, you have to get damn lucky. You are competing with folks who already had funding history and a research trajectory established before they ever set foot in residency.

You take the community job you get that is best for family based on location. You would have probably taken an offer from your home institution or any regional academic place, but none was offered. You were smart enough not to pursue satellite academics (or maybe not).

**You may have peaked at your ascendant chair's CV and realized that they had one publication in total a year after residency.

During your career to date you notice:
1. Indications and fractionation keep dropping and dropping and dropping. You were a fairly early adopter of moderately hypo breast and succumb to cultural pressure to hypo prostate. You offer SBRT for everything but liver and pancreas in the community. There is some uptick in SBRT volume during your career, but everything else is decreasing on a per capita basis. You enroll in collaborative group clinical trials and some of these are radiation exclusion trials. You are now treating 5 fraction breast APBI often. Your enthusiasm for oligometastatic treatment is getting more refined (and treatment less reflexive) as data emerges. Oligoprogressive lung...yes. Oligoprogressive breast....maybe not. While there have some technical advances in your practice (RA almost everything, Filter Free tx, GEUD planning at times), you have no delusions that any of these advances are impacting survival. Doing some TNT for rectal is the most progressive thing you have done in the past 10 years.

2. Systemic therapy has gone bonkers. SOC for locally advanced breast cancer has changed 5+ times and by molecular type in the past several years. IO is used for everything. There are multiple targeted agents for many solid tumor sites. With the aging population, blood dyscrasias and other volume becomes overwhelming for medonc. Your medonc partner practice has doubled in size, while your practice has stayed the same.

3. Your regional medonc colleagues at major academic places respect you and view you as interchangeable for their patients relative to in-house radonc. Your regional radonc academic colleagues try to retain patients unnecessarily and tout their preferential value even for routine cases (palliative brain and bone).

4. You may have had to hire once. You had a glut of interest and excellent applicants. No problem hiring an excellent doc from a name brand place. Plenty of early career academic folks considering a change.

5. If you are involved in admin, you may have to help recruit for medonc. You are now offering J-1 visa candidates straight from a community medonc fellowship more than you or your radonc partners are making. They are not biting. They are able to get jobs in fairly large metros.

6. Your personal lateral mobility is very, very poor. No hopes at hometown. Would have to be a national search (or at least a very large regional search) for anyone. This is unique to your field.

7. Your colleagues a few years after you had it worse. Asked to do a fellow-ship to get an academic track job. Took an underworked satellite job.

So you take stock:
You have no problems getting out the door for work and you are grateful for your life. But....you would not recommend the field to anyone young. You are not excited about the new things that you are going to be doing for the rest of your career or the active learning you are going to have to do to stay up-to-date. (We could all answer all those OLA questions out of residency). You know some of the leadership in the field and you view them as careerists at this point. Loyal to their institutions and interests and not terribly interested in taking an honest look at the field. You find it preposterous that there was ever residency expansion like in circa 2010 and that there has not been a correction since.

You quit ASTRO, you put your head down and work, you try to do your part to help keep your community hospital afloat and you occasionally bitch, talk about clinical cases, science and culture on SDN!
Blaming Spider-Man GIF
 
I’m still here. Just logged on at 9:30 PM local time after a long day at work which was followed up by completing some charts and doing some contouring at home.

I also wanted to say hello to my family.

I hope you had a nice evening.
I hope I'm wrong about your future with ASTRO.

But so far, other than being polite I've seen nothing that suggests we are getting anything but the same sandwich.

You've heard from many peers on here that the system is broken, leadership is absent and ignorant and all numbers point to a serious cliff we are about to go over.

The time for platitudes is over. It's time to stand up with a plan for action.

As the guy from caddyshack says: we're waiting.
 
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