Roe v. Wade: implications for psychiatrists?

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Celexa

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Recognizing that this topic is a lightning rod, I am interested in hearing people's thoughts on the implications today's ruling has for us as psychiatrists. Particularly from folks who were practicing prior to the original decision, currently practicing in places with extremely limited access to reproductive health care, and people working in CL settings.

Not interested in a debate about rights and wrongs of the law, but rather how this change may impact our clinical practice.
 
Recognizing that this topic is a lightning rod, I am interested in hearing people's thoughts on the implications today's ruling has for us as psychiatrists. Particularly from folks who were practicing prior to the original decision, currently practicing in places with extremely limited access to reproductive health care, and people working in CL settings.

Not interested in a debate about rights and wrongs of the law, but rather how this change may impact our clinical practice.
The original decision was 49 years ago. I hope there is no one practicing who was practicing prior to that.
 
The original decision was 49 years ago. I hope there is no one practicing who was practicing prior to that.
Ha. I..actually do know of a few people who are practicing and graduated medical school 60 years ago. Granted they are unlikely to be here. But perhaps I should have said people who have treated patients whose lives were impacted by inability to access safe reproductive health services, whose presence here is somewhat more likely.
 
Ha. I..actually do know of a few people who are practicing and graduated medical school 60 years ago. Granted they are unlikely to be here. But perhaps I should have said people who have treated patients whose lives were impacted by inability to access safe reproductive health services, whose presence here is somewhat more likely.
There is a psychiatrist here in town that was probably practicing then (or very close). He is just terrible and should have retired 10 years ago.
 
There is a psychiatrist here in town that was probably practicing then (or very close). He is just terrible and should have retired 10 years ago.
The ones I know who are that old are mainly doing analytic therapy and so their quality as providers largely hinges on your opinion of psychoanalysis, lol. Agreed on the med management side its often ill advised.
 
I imagine for those practicing in states where the law will remain similar / the same that there will be little concrete impact beyond patients having another thing to stress about. For those practicing in states where restrictions are on the way psychiatrists (especially those who focus on reproductive health and women's health) will need to be ready to work with women who are forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, or who resent having a child they did not want. This would also be expected to come up in trauma treatment contexts when, for example, the unwanted pregnancy results from rape and the woman is forced to carry through with the pregnancy (where laws do not allow for exemptions). We will also need to prepare for scenarios where the woman's life is in danger from pregnancy but she is not allowed to abort where laws do not allow for adequate exemptions.

People practicing in restrictive states will also need to familiarize themselves with new statutes, such as the Texas law allowing private citizens to sue anyone who "aids" an abortion (I imagine this could extend to, for example, supporting a patient who is leaving the state for an abortion by helping them think through options and next steps). I think some of our colleagues in OB/GYN and other areas will end up much more seriously affected.
 
I imagine for those practicing in states where the law will remain similar / the same that there will be little concrete impact beyond patients having another thing to stress about. For those practicing in states where restrictions are on the way psychiatrists (especially those who focus on reproductive health and women's health) will need to be ready to work with women who are forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, or who resent having a child they did not want. This would also be expected to come up in trauma treatment contexts when, for example, the unwanted pregnancy results from rape and the woman is forced to carry through with the pregnancy (where laws do not allow for exemptions). We will also need to prepare for scenarios where the woman's life is in danger from pregnancy but she is not allowed to abort where laws do not allow for adequate exemptions.

Uh no don't you know the real problem is that these women just don't have access to MENTAL HEALTH CARE. Once they have access to MENTAL HEALTH CARE this will not be an issue anymore. Just like with school shootings.

Yeah be prepared for tons of shock as people wonder why the "mental health" of this population deteriorates so much going forward.
 
Not on topic but addressing the above, while a resident, and this was about 15 years ago, there were attendings who still only gave out typicals, TCAs, and MAO-Is despite that SSRIs and atypicals had been out for more than 20 years. Their reluctance to give out newer meds wasn't because of the institution (e.g. some prisons only allow generics) or because they knew something was better about these meds or the patients were treatment resistant and only older meds worked. It was cause, frankly, they weren't good doctors.
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The RvW issue will affect us although as written above Ob-Gyn will get slammed the worst. Honestly I don't know all of the implications and we can't make blanket-statements as it may highly differ per state.

This also could significantly affect the control over your own body issue regarding the law that several anti-vaxxers argued. RvW was the biggest and most major statement that one should have control over one's own body even at risk of preventing harm to someone else. Without RvW one could argue, for example, that no one could smoke, everyone will have to take a vaccine for the protection of others even if you are willing to take the risk to your own body, etc.

Some people, especially on the R-end of the political spectrum may argue that's nonsense and this only applied to abortion. The law is supposed to cut all ways. If a judge rules one way, all are supposed to be held accountable just not for the specifics but also the generalities the law pushes. RvW clearly argued the broader issue at stake wasn't simply abortion, but that one had the right to their own body, therefore a woman could choose an abortive medical procedure as she is controlling and making choices over her own body. The main argument wasn't abortion but that people have control over their own body.

So now that RvW is no longer the law of the land, the rights one has to their own body are now no longer clearly as defined.

If the court were to make specifics such as "it only applies to abortion" without being able to substantively state why and without it applying to other parallel examples this in effect will only make the laws seem more and more arbitrary and not fair and would further violate the equal protections that are supposed to be guaranteed under the law.

This can also lead to forced lab tests and medical treatments against one's will even if that person is not a danger to themselves, forced vaccines for the good of others, etc, forced treatment for addiction against one's will......

E.g. one may have tuberculosis. Well that's a danger to the community. Guy doesn't want testing. Now without RvW he doesn't have final say over his body. We may possibly be able to hold him down and get tests without his consent.
 
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We should also consider the impact on LGBTQ populations given Justice Thomas's concurring opinion. From Justice Thomas: SCOTUS ‘should reconsider’ contraception, same-sex marriage rulings, "Justice Clarence Thomas argued in a concurring opinion released on Friday that the Supreme Court “should reconsider” its past rulings codifying rights to contraception access, same-sex relationships and same-sex marriage."

That population has a lot more to fear now than they did a few years ago, and I suspect we will start seeing more manifestation of that.
 
The above is especially scary to me because without Stare Decisis then the law itself is now arbitrary simply depending on who is in the court without establishing the important of precedent or that prior decisions matter.

Antonin Scalia himself argued that without Stare Decisis people could lose faith in the sanctity of the law itself. It is also scary that this legal principle has been embraced as a hallmark conservative legal virtue along with others such as textualism but that so many conservative judges were willing to rule as if it didn't exist.

Edit-Sorry I may have gotten a little political and the above was not written in a manner to attack people of a Pro-Life philosophy but to criticize we're now in a new medical-legal era of lack of consistent jurisprudence. Not the same but a similar issue has been called "COVID confusion" in legal books. That is a government may allow for changes in practice because of COVID but then quickly get rid of them because the infections decrease and this could cause some health providers to fall out of compliance despite good and reasonable efforts to keep up with the laws. Further even if the providers are compliant such changes could cause significant financial hardship on those providers as they may start buying equipment, then not using it, hiring/firing employees because of the legal changes etc.
 
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Before Roe, it was an open secret that some women with unwanted pregnancies would go to psychiatrists and be evaluated for risk of self-harm and suicidality. By getting documentation of high suicide risk, these women were able to meet the criteria of the "life of mother" exemption and be able to proceed with a legal abortion.

The language of some states' abortion laws potentially allows for severe mental illness or suicidality to count as a threat to a pregnant woman's life. In these states, mental health exemptions may be the only way that many women will be able to gain abortion access. This may pose a challenging ethical dilemma for pro-choice psychiatrists in these parts of the country.
 
Polypharmacy that always, 100% includes a stimulant and some kind of sedative. Usually Xanax. It's pretty rare for there not to be an anti-psychotic (is neuroleptic still an accurate term?).
It is and that’s very unfortunate
 
Uh no don't you know the real problem is that these women just don't have access to MENTAL HEALTH CARE. Once they have access to MENTAL HEALTH CARE this will not be an issue anymore. Just like with school shootings.

Yeah be prepared for tons of shock as people wonder why the "mental health" of this population deteriorates so much going forward.
We should provide mental health to fetuses. Someone tell congress to fund fetal psychiatry
 
I’m a psychologist, but I was already contacted by a patient who was highly distressed about this decision and having a hard time managing her emotions. I’m wondering how much it will come up in sessions this week and going forward.
 
The most obvious implication as discussed above is that in some states, risk to the health of the mother (which includes mental health) is a qualifying reason for abortion and so psychiatrists may once again become arbiters of whether women can get abortions and there are complex ethical ramifications of that. Sally Satel (who herself is a republican and part of the conservative American Enterprise Institute) wrote about this recently in the NYT. However many states have rewritten their laws to be more stringent than in the pre-Roe either with no exceptions for health of the mother, incest or rape. I suspect many others will exclude exceptions for the health of the mother (and explicitly mental health) in the next few months as state legislatures revisit their abortion laws.

There has long been tensions within organized psychiatry about how much psychiatrists should be at the forefront of social issues. While psychiatrists do lean liberal, there is obviously a wide range of viewpoints within the field (and this particular forum seems to skew to the right). Some people think that physicians and our professional organizations should stay out of political and social issues. Whereas others see sociopolitical issues as directly relevant to our work as physicians, believe activism is a part of being a physician, and believe we have a moral imperative to enter the fray and opine on such issues. Black and other minority physicians and younger physicians are more likely to want physicians and organized medicine to speak out on such issues. The flip side is being seen as partisan is not a good look for the legitimacy of the profession, one that many people continue to look upon with suspicion and disdain.

Somewhat peripherally, women who have miscarriages and stillbirths attributed to their behavior have been charged with manslaughter. In general, fetuses do not have any rights, but laws meant to protect women from domestic violence are now being used to criminalize women with substance use disorders themselves. This has even happened in supposedly liberal california (off the coasts large parts of the state are solidly red and there is a large evangelical community). I think this has implications for both clinical and forensic psychiatrists.

In some states, if fetuses are given more rights and a patient sees a psychiatrist and discusses abortion, there could be a duty for the psychiatrist to protect the fetus. This would likely be established in case law, but could be enshrined by state legislators as well. What this would mean in practice is that psychotherapists (including psychiatrists) could have a duty to report women who are thinking of having abortions in order to protect the life of the fetus. In states where they put a bounty on anyone who aids and abets a woman having an abortion, psychiatrists could also potentially be sued as well.
 
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@splik I didnt even think about that last point, very interesting to bring up.

I imagine this would make psychiatrists/other mental health professionals even more reluctant to practice in these states (not that they tend to have an abundance of psychiatric treatment anyway….) since I’d think not many of them would want to be forced to report a woman for thinking of having an abortion. I know I personally would never move to such a state where I would have to report a young woman for even discussing that she’s seriously thinking she wants to get an abortion.

Then, as usual, there will wailing and crying about why they don’t have any mental healthcare in these states.
 
@splik I didnt even think about that last point, very interesting to bring up.

I imagine this would make psychiatrists/other mental health professionals even more reluctant to practice in these states (not that they tend to have an abundance of psychiatric treatment anyway….) since I’d think not many of them would want to be forced to report a woman for thinking of having an abortion. I know I personally would never move to such a state where I would have to report a young woman for even discussing that she’s seriously thinking she wants to get an abortion.

Then, as usual, there will wailing and crying about why they don’t have any mental healthcare in these states.

I imagine they will just start doing what they are already doing for other professions they have a hard time recruiting, like teachers, and just drastically lower the licensing requirements so that essentially anyone with a pulse can "do mental health" in that state. And, they can pay that person less money than a competent MH clinician. Mortality and comorbidity statistics are pretty clear on this, these states do not really value the health of their populace in any meaningful way.
 
I would just like for the people who are 100% against abortion to spend a day getting to know some of my patients who have kids or are pregnant and have severe psychosis, bipolar 1, SUD, etc. Many women are in no position to care for a child and forcing them to have a kid because "life matters" and then pretty much abandoning them once they have the kid...the irony...we need some level headed physicians involved in decisions like this..
 

Interesting and literally in direct contradiction with other laws that, written to advance the pro-life movement, allowed doctors to be able to refrain from doing medical treatments or procedures that went against their ethical beliefs.

So the argument was, with the intent on preventing physicians from assisting in any way with an abortion, even a referral, that a doc shouldn't have to do anything they don't want to do, now it's do it or else even though the other laws still in the books are in direct contradiction.

This is kind of like the argument that it was all about state's rights, but now that it's in the hands of the states' now the argument is evolving into there should be a federal ban with several of those claiming it was really states' rights now playing as if they had no recollection of their prior comments.

And that's not even considering that the Ohio bill is forcing physicians to do a procedure that's not even possible. Kind of like making a bill "if a patient commits suicide the psychiatrist must travel back in time to prevent the suicide or face murder charges."
 
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It's probably not going to change much for federal employees. It never was possible to get involved with abortion related activities as a fed.
 
Nightmare scenario: You're an inpatient psych doctor, you're in a state where abortion is illegal, the patient has severe pregnancy-induced depression to the degree where she it not eating and is a danger to herself and others. You can't allow for an abortion. Since she's involuntarily committed you cannot discharge her. Nor can you transfer her to a different inpatient psych unit in a different state because she's involuntarily committed in your state.

So let's say this happens to Dr. X.
Dr X: Dr. Whopper what do I do?
Dr. Whopper: Schadenfreude. I got no effing idea but thank God I ain't you!
Dr. X: What do I do?
Dr. Whopper: Uh, I don't know. Sorry, but I got to get my coffee....

Seriously this situation will happen. It won't happen today, likely not tomorrow but in the course of a few months to years? Yes it will happen. I'm being serious. This would be the thing that might make me get out of inpatient psych.

What I'd recommend, if you do inpatient involuntary psych is to talk to your department chairs about this now so when it does happen instead of being caught with your pants down you have some actual idea and some prepping already done.
 
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No Roman Catholic Psychiatrists left on the SDN these days, I guess? Sad trombone sound...
 
Nightmare scenario: You're an inpatient psych doctor, you're in a state where abortion is illegal, the patient has severe pregnancy-induced depression to the degree where she it not eating and is a danger to herself and others. You can't allow for an abortion. Since she's involuntarily committed you cannot discharge her. Nor can you transfer her to a different inpatient psych unit in a different state because she's involuntarily committed in your state.

So let's say this happens to Dr. X.
Dr X: Dr. Whopper what do I do?
Dr. Whopper: Schadenfreude. I got no effing idea but thank God I ain't you!
Dr. X: What do I do?
Dr. Whopper: Uh, I don't know. Sorry, but I got to get my coffee....

Seriously this situation will happen. It won't happen today, likely not tomorrow but in the course of a few months to years? Yes it will happen. I'm being serious. This would be the thing that might make me get out of inpatient psych.

What I'd recommend, if you do inpatient involuntary psych is to talk to your department chairs about this now so when it does happen instead of being caught with your pants down you have some actual idea and some prepping already done.

Options:
  1. Throw every antidepressant at her. Hope one sticks.
  2. Try ECT if the hospital/courts allow.
  3. Keep her in the hospital, forever, until 1) there's regression to the mean and she gets better, or 2) until she delivers her baby and then has to transfer out because your inpatient psych unit isn't a labor & delivery unit then refuse to take her back because your unit is perpetually full.
  4. Involuntary refeeding.
  5. Quit your Big Box job and let the chumps remaining deal with it.
 
Nightmare scenario: You're an inpatient psych doctor, you're in a state where abortion is illegal, the patient has severe pregnancy-induced depression to the degree where she it not eating and is a danger to herself and others. You can't allow for an abortion. Since she's involuntarily committed you cannot discharge her. Nor can you transfer her to a different inpatient psych unit in a different state because she's involuntarily committed in your state.

So let's say this happens to Dr. X.
Dr X: Dr. Whopper what do I do?
Dr. Whopper: Schadenfreude. I got no effing idea but thank God I ain't you!
Dr. X: What do I do?
Dr. Whopper: Uh, I don't know. Sorry, but I got to get my coffee....

Seriously this situation will happen. It won't happen today, likely not tomorrow but in the course of a few months to years? Yes it will happen. I'm being serious. This would be the thing that might make me get out of inpatient psych.

What I'd recommend, if you do inpatient involuntary psych is to talk to your department chairs about this now so when it does happen instead of being caught with your pants down you have some actual idea and some prepping already done.
You do what every other inpatient psych doctor does. You transfer to ED for medical stabilization and and never accept her back Until the medical issue has been addressed.
 
  1. Throw every antidepressant at her. Hope one sticks.
  2. Try ECT if the hospital/courts allow.
  3. Keep her in the hospital, forever, until 1) there's regression to the mean and she gets better, or 2) until she delivers her baby and then has to transfer out because your inpatient psych unit isn't a labor & delivery unit then refuse to take her back because your unit is perpetually full.
  4. Involuntary refeeding.
  5. Quit your Big Box job and let the chumps remaining deal with it.
1-Totally agree
2-Unless patient agrees likely will not happen. I saw one of the only cases of involuntary ECT in Ohio. Allegedly rarely happens and it took over 9 months to pursue in court.
3-This is the nightmare I'm talking about. If this happens have another patient waiting and fill in that spot ASAP so she can't come back! Ob-Gyn will hate you. In a similar case (it was a surgical case) the surgeon ordered the patient back despite that it was an EMTALA violation and he was left outside the psych unit in a bed for hours. During the conversations with the surgeon he screamed back often times inappropriately, threatened psych workers that if we didn't take him back "we'd be sorry" and after several hours the hospital made the surgeon take the patient back to his unit.
4-Nightmare scenario but this will get her off the unit because psych units can't take patients with IVs. What will happen is the other unit will freak out and scream at you. Then they'll refuse to take the patient but when the hospital lawyers and administration gets involved if she needs an IV she'll be taken off your unit. Until that patient is discharged + a few months people from the other unit will give you dirty looks. Lots of shenanigans will happen like the IM or Ob unit will say she's perfectly fine with feeding on her own even is she's not and then drop her off at your unit. Another tactic I've seen is if more than 1 psychiatrist runs the unit and the 2nd or 3rd one is a weaker doctor, they'll wait for the stronger doctor to not be there then try to transfer the patient while the doc who accepts everyone is on duty.
5-Exactly.

I've whined about getting out of my last job and one thing I didn't mention was on more than one occasion the hospital had a situation where the usual doctor couldn't handle it so the guy right above me kept asking me to pull double duty to handle specific horror cases which again infuriated me cause they weren't paying me much, didn't pay me more for double duty, and because I also worked at the local jail pulling the double duty added about 2 hours a day of travel time. I've been ranting about this across threads-it was yet another sign I needed to leave that place.

You do what every other inpatient psych doctor does. You transfer to ED for medical stabilization and and never accept her back Until the medical issue has been addressed.

If you're in a state long-term facility this might work out cause these state facilities almost never have medical units that allow for IV. If your psych unit is in the medical hospital you likely won't be able to transfer out because it's an EMTALA violation, but then you will transfer the patient to a medical floor.

Of course while this happens, until the patient recovers from depression the medical floor, even when she is not medically stabilized, someone from the IM or Ob-Gyn floor will pull some BS and say she is and this will happen about once a week if not more.
 
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Late to the thread but one point that I haven't seen so far is that as a CAP this is going to be a ticking time bomb.

Think of all the existing child protective custody cases - imagine the worst cases of neglect, abuse, trauma of kids growing up unwanted, in foster homes, or by bio parents who are unable to emotionally or financially take care of them.

Now multiple that by many fold. If kids with supportive families of means are having a this hard of a time accessing MH care, imagine how kids without will fare in life.

I am no formal economist or sociologist by any means but I think society may be headed to greater turmoil in the next 1-2 decades once those individuals become of age.
 
In Missouri (and I'm in this state), a woman cannot get an abortion until her life's in danger from the pregnancy. So if a woman has an ectopic pregnancy which WILL RESULT IN A NON-VIABLE FETUS, AND PUT THE MOTHER'S LIFE AT RISK, the woman cannot get the ectopic pregnancy aborted until the fetus has grown to a degree where her life is in danger.

Add to this there's also momentum to make it illegal for women, if pregnant, to leave the state to get an abortion. Seriously. Handmaiden's Tale type stuff. No this isn't just a rumor. An actual state rep is now pushing a law to make this happen.

So yes I'm sure this will create mental-health repercussions. Given the percentage of pregnancies that are ectopic, the number of women in this state getting pregnant per year, this will result in literally a few hundred women per year being in the above situation where their lives must be put at risk to do a procedure that would've been safe before RvW was overturned.

I've already heard talk from college applicants now not wanting to attend a college or university in Missouri. This could also lead to reduced applications into residency. It could put a dent into medical school applications although that's so competitive I believe the medical schools will still have a good pool of talented applicants.
 
The most obvious implication as discussed above is that in some states, risk to the health of the mother (which includes mental health) is a qualifying reason for abortion and so psychiatrists may once again become arbiters of whether women can get abortions and there are complex ethical ramifications of that. Sally Satel (who herself is a republican and part of the conservative American Enterprise Institute) wrote about this recently in the NYT. However many states have rewritten their laws to be more stringent than in the pre-Roe either with no exceptions for health of the mother, incest or rape. I suspect many others will exclude exceptions for the health of the mother (and explicitly mental health) in the next few months as state legislatures revisit their abortion laws.

Great post overall but I have to take issue with some of the stuff in this paragraph. The only state with an abortion ban without an exception for the health of the mother in some capacity is Oklahoma, although there are more states where the exception explicitly requires that it be done to save the mother's life. This could still rope us in due to questions of suicidality and imminent risk but I would be leery of being involved in the test case.

I think there is going to be a round of abortion ban revisions but I don't think it is necessarily all going to be in the direction you seem to suggest. While Roe v Wade was in effect very strict abortion bans were a way to score cheap political points with essentially no electoral downside, since everyone knew the laws were blatantly at odds with federal precedent. Now those laws have consequences. I expect there will still be bans in place where there are bans on the books already but if the anti-abortion lobby couldn't get a ban through when it was still meaningless symbolism it's not going to happen now that it's actually real.

If all the existing bans on abortion were brought in line with exceptions for health, rape, incest etc we'd actually be in line with most of the member states of the EU, as it happens. Not the rich Northwestern ones, obviously. If the bans become exceptionless those states turn into Poland.
 
Great post overall but I have to take issue with some of the stuff in this paragraph. The only state with an abortion ban without an exception for the health of the mother in some capacity is Oklahoma, although there are more states where the exception explicitly requires that it be done to save the mother's life. This could still rope us in due to questions of suicidality and imminent risk but I would be leery of being involved in the test case.

I think there is going to be a round of abortion ban revisions but I don't think it is necessarily all going to be in the direction you seem to suggest. While Roe v Wade was in effect very strict abortion bans were a way to score cheap political points with essentially no electoral downside, since everyone knew the laws were blatantly at odds with federal precedent. Now those laws have consequences. I expect there will still be bans in place where there are bans on the books already but if the anti-abortion lobby couldn't get a ban through when it was still meaningless symbolism it's not going to happen now that it's actually real.

If all the existing bans on abortion were brought in line with exceptions for health, rape, incest etc we'd actually be in line with most of the member states of the EU, as it happens. Not the rich Northwestern ones, obviously. If the bans become exceptionless those states turn into Poland.
But you'd also have to factor in EU countries there's much better access to prenatal care. The analogies can be very far off if the legality of abortion were identical if in one place it's hard to get prenatal care but in another it's very easy to get it.
 
But you'd also have to factor in EU countries there's much better access to prenatal care. The analogies can be very far off if the legality of abortion were identical if in one place it's hard to get prenatal care but in another it's very easy to get it.

I mean, sure, there are a lot of reasons why the EU and the US aren't the same. No argument there.
 
So I created this account to post here... I'm a psychiatrist in a deep red state.

What are your thoughts on the following...
1. Do you think there will be a Tarasoff duty to warn for the fetus?
2. Are we going to be involuntarily committing pregnant people for AI with plan (abortive ideation with plan to travel out of state for an abortion)?
3. Will partners (or really anyone) have standing to get a court order to physically restrain a pregnant person from leaving the state?

These are obviously extreme situations. I think I would have to move. That is sad.
 
So I created this account to post here... I'm a psychiatrist in a deep red state.

What are your thoughts on the following...
1. Do you think there will be a Tarasoff duty to warn for the fetus?
2. Are we going to be involuntarily committing pregnant people for AI with plan (abortive ideation with plan to travel out of state for an abortion)?
3. Will partners (or really anyone) have standing to get a court order to physically restrain a pregnant person from leaving the state?

These are obviously extreme situations. I think I would have to move. That is sad.

All of these things are very real worries. As @whopper already said there is actual legislation being written to make it illegal for a woman in these American Taliban states from leaving the state to have legal abortions elsewhere. Close to home for me, my spouse does side work that involves abortion care. So, our main concern is the ever growing homicidal pieces of the right which would very much like to impose their will on abortions everywhere, regardless of whether or not they have the votes to do anything legislatively.
 
All of these things are very real worries. As @whopper already said there is actual legislation being written to make it illegal for a woman in these American Taliban states from leaving the state to have legal abortions elsewhere. Close to home for me, my spouse does side work that involves abortion care. So, our main concern is the ever growing homicidal pieces of the right which would very much like to impose their will on abortions everywhere, regardless of whether or not they have the votes to do anything legislatively.
I am not aware of any "homicidal pieces of the right". The homicidal pieces are on the left. For example, Jane's Revenge- per Wikipedia: " Jane's Revenge is an American militant extremist pro-abortion rights group, which has claimed responsibility for several acts of firebombing, vandalism, and arson targeting crisis pregnancy centers. It was formed in May 2022, in response to the leak of a possible ruling by the Supreme Court of the..."
The right wants to act legislatively- now that abortion is no longer considered to be a constitutional right, conservatives in many states will try to legislatively limit abortion.
What would be really interesting from a constitutional standpoint is if the federal government (Congress) tries to pass laws regarding abortion that conflict with state laws. That would lead to some 10th amendment issues and I am not sure which side will prevail.

AS to how all of this will affect psychiatrists: I think the only criminal penalties/jail time will be for OB/GYN docs (or any other doc) who performs an abortion that is illegal under the laws of their state. Doctors (such as psychiatrists) who are only peripherally involved in illegal abortions would (most likely) only face medical board sanctions.

For anyone really concerned about the issue of abortion (on either side), probably the most productive thing they can do is to be active in their state medical society. The state medical societies have a lot of influence with the state medical boards, and with state legislatures.
 
I am not aware of any "homicidal pieces of the right". The homicidal pieces are on the left. For example, Jane's Revenge- per Wikipedia: " Jane's Revenge is an American militant extremist pro-abortion rights group, which has claimed responsibility for several acts of firebombing, vandalism, and arson targeting crisis pregnancy centers. It was formed in May 2022, in response to the leak of a possible ruling by the Supreme Court of the..."
The right wants to act legislatively- now that abortion is no longer considered to be a constitutional right, conservatives in many states will try to legislatively limit abortion.
What would be really interesting from a constitutional standpoint is if the federal government (Congress) tries to pass laws regarding abortion that conflict with state laws. That would lead to some 10th amendment issues and I am not sure which side will prevail.

AS to how all of this will affect psychiatrists: I think the only criminal penalties/jail time will be for OB/GYN docs (or any other doc) who performs an abortion that is illegal under the laws of their state. Doctors (such as psychiatrists) who are only peripherally involved in illegal abortions would (most likely) only face medical board sanctions.

For anyone really concerned about the issue of abortion (on either side), probably the most productive thing they can do is to be active in their state medical society. The state medical societies have a lot of influence with the state medical boards, and with state legislatures.
Really? to my knowledge, there have been no deaths and pretty small fry stuff as opposed to actual killings and dozens of firebombings over the years. Which we're about to see a resurgence of. Look at a majority of mass shootings in recent history. And the fact that an ever increasing of Repubs polled endorse political violence as necessary. And, as those attitudes further polarize and these nutjobs see violence as the only way to solve problems in their tiny brains, you will definitely see a rise in violence against reproductive health providers. Particularly as more red states criminalize pregnant women.


 

What I consider political violence is attacking government officials, buildings (police precincts), congressman, and the President (Trump at the time); and trying to assassinate a supreme court justice

While I condemn mass shootings I don't agree that they are political violence. But you have a point about nut jobs on the right bombing abortion clinics in the past.

I do think violence against abortion clinics will lessen in the future since now those who oppose abortion can work legislatively against it, which is now possible for the first time in nearly 50 years. There are now non-violent ways of opposing abortion (unless the left succeeds in assassinating a supreme court justice or 2)
 
While I condemn mass shootings I don't agree that they are political violence. But you have a point about nut jobs on the right bombing abortion clinics in the past.

Right so if someone attacks a crisis pregnancy center it's a "homicidal piece of the left" but if someone attacks (and kills) abortion clinic staff/doctors they're "nut jobs". Got it.
 
So I created this account to post here... I'm a psychiatrist in a deep red state.

What are your thoughts on the following...
1. Do you think there will be a Tarasoff duty to warn for the fetus?
2. Are we going to be involuntarily committing pregnant people for AI with plan (abortive ideation with plan to travel out of state for an abortion)?
3. Will partners (or really anyone) have standing to get a court order to physically restrain a pregnant person from leaving the state?

These are obviously extreme situations. I think I would have to move. That is sad.
This post seems a bit paranoid. I am pretty sure you can’t get a warning to a fetus. I think you might have been meaning duty to protect which is why we would need to notify law enforcement of a potential homicide.

More realistically, even before legislation weighs in on this, that is a judgement call for a clinician to make if your patient was planning an abortion. I personally wouldn’t tell anyone jack about my patient regardless of the states law, but I tend to err on that side anyway. However, if a patient was planning an abortion in an extremely unsafe manner because of the states ban and communicated they didn’t really care if they lived or died because they were pretty suicidal anyway, then what?

I probably still wouldn’t turn them in. Truth is that most of the time in other situations like this I can usually talk the patient into a more rational stance and doing the right thing of their own volition that doesn’t place me in the dilemma. Turn gun into family or friend, voluntary admission, Uber to the next state to get the procedure done and I didn’t even know you were pregnant.

I remember releasing a guy to his home from the ED with a plan to go home and finish the rest of his beers that he had been drinking when he made the mistake of threatening suicide on the phone to his ex. My one stipulation was that the police drove him home and they were willing to do so. Sometimes you just got to make the best decision in the moment and I doubt that this new wrinkle will be much worse than what I deal with day in and day out.

I’m actually more concerned about how some of the red flag laws could affect my patients and interactions with them since that is just a much more frequent issue that comes up.
 
This post seems a bit paranoid. I am pretty sure you can’t get a warning to a fetus.
I think there are some on the right that take the idea that a fetus is a person 100% literally. If that is the case, I can see some people in particularly conservative states trying to mandate similar actions.

If you are taking the literal thinking on the far right literally... There is an obvious person to warn for a fetus--the likely other partner/parent.
 
This post seems a bit paranoid. I am pretty sure you can’t get a warning to a fetus. I think you might have been meaning duty to protect which is why we would need to notify law enforcement of a potential homicide.

More realistically, even before legislation weighs in on this, that is a judgement call for a clinician to make if your patient was planning an abortion. I personally wouldn’t tell anyone jack about my patient regardless of the states law, but I tend to err on that side anyway. However, if a patient was planning an abortion in an extremely unsafe manner because of the states ban and communicated they didn’t really care if they lived or died because they were pretty suicidal anyway, then what?

I probably still wouldn’t turn them in. Truth is that most of the time in other situations like this I can usually talk the patient into a more rational stance and doing the right thing of their own volition that doesn’t place me in the dilemma. Turn gun into family or friend, voluntary admission, Uber to the next state to get the procedure done and I didn’t even know you were pregnant.

I remember releasing a guy to his home from the ED with a plan to go home and finish the rest of his beers that he had been drinking when he made the mistake of threatening suicide on the phone to his ex. My one stipulation was that the police drove him home and they were willing to do so. Sometimes you just got to make the best decision in the moment and I doubt that this new wrinkle will be much worse than what I deal with day in and day out.

I’m actually more concerned about how some of the red flag laws could affect my patients and interactions with them since that is just a much more frequent issue that comes up.

I would encourage you to read some of the legislation that is being proposed and some of the rhetoric of the lobbyists on the anti-abortion side,. These things are all very much in play in the near future.
 
I think there are some on the right that take the idea that a fetus is a person 100% literally. If that is the case, I can see some people in particularly conservative states trying to mandate similar actions.

If you are taking the literal thinking on the far right literally... There is an obvious person to warn for a fetus--the likely other partner/parent.

Don't forget that we also have the set precedence of a bounty system that will encourage neighbors to inform on pregnant women to the authorities for a nice cash reward.
 
What are your thoughts on the following...
1. Do you think there will be a Tarasoff duty to warn for the fetus?
2. Are we going to be involuntarily committing pregnant people for AI with plan (abortive ideation with plan to travel out of state for an abortion)?
3. Will partners (or really anyone) have standing to get a court order to physically restrain a pregnant person from leaving the state?

These are obviously extreme situations. I think I would have to move. That is sad.

1)I'd typically answer no but with politicians like a specific person from Georgia making Q-Anon claims that are outright not true and whacko who knows? Politics have become theater now. I don't think this will happen but with Ohio's bill that a doctor has to implant an ectopic pregnancy into a uterus as if it's a viable option this IMHO is not the impossible but the the now not likely but possible.
2) Possibly. Seriously. If a judge rules on this some judges are whacko. Judges are like doctors. Some are great. Some are terrible. What most people aren't factoring is there's such a thing as a settled law. That is a law that's been through the court, kicked around etc. During new legal situations these things haven't been kicked around yet and there's a lot of bad rulings. A great example is the 10 year old girl in Ohio not being allowed to have her abortion. You think this is whacko paranoid? Dude-the Ohio thing happened.
I've sat in court several times where a judge made a ruling that was flat out in contradiction with Supreme Court rulings and other written laws. The judge was a local yokel frat brother of the mayor who couldn't get a job as a lawyer. This type of local yokel judge phenomenon is not rare.
3) In Missouri this is currently being pursued as a realistic law. This isn't some whacko discussion. This is real. Politician trying to get this passed is Mary Coleman. Mary ought to change her name to Offred but heck that's just me being political.

It's one thing to say this is paranoid but as I said the Ohio ruling happened. The Missouri issue where a woman with an ectopic pregnancy cannot have an abortion until the ectopic pregnancy puts her life at risk is real. If this were "impossible" the people who wrote the trigger laws that are now the law of the land would've had good medical consultation that would've steered clear of these but haven't and would've created more exceptions.

You're not supposed to do a competency evaluation for someone on criminal trial last and do the insanity evaluation first. Yet I've seen come courts do this time and time again. You think the local yokel judge who allowed for this is on top of the situation? Hell no but he and the local government didn't care. These same judges will hear the first round of cases on issues such as this.

Just as I see doctors prescribe Lamotrigine without warning of Stevens Johnson Syndrome, prescription of benzos without warnings it's dangerous to mix with alcohol these judges are out there and in large numbers and they will make the first round of judgments in this post-Roe v Wade landscape. Not a good time to be a young fertile woman in a red state.
 
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Meh.

These abortion changes won't really impact people once the dust settles. Right now its just a glorious talking point for Main Stream Media to ignite their base and hopefully keep people voting dem come mid terms.

People will still travel to where if its legal to get them who want them, and and support foundations will pop up to assist people to travel to get them who 'cannot afford it.'

A nice new balance will emerge. Blue states will have the feel good of being rescuers. Red states will have the feel good of banning something they don't like. Win-Win.

This won't effect Psychiatrists at all. Other than in outpatient practices having patients whine about it as though it impacts their life with more magnitude than it really does. I've already had a few patients lament how their mood is lower because of the ruling. That's it.

In summary: meh
 
These abortion changes won't really impact people once the dust settles. Right now its just a glorious talking point for Main Stream Media to ignite their base and hopefully keep people voting dem come mid terms.

That dust settling can be well over 10 years.

I do agree, however, that there will be a dust settling, and I also agree a lot of what created this situation to begin with is media hysteria mixed with political hysteria. People want a reality show type of crazy now mixed in with their politics. Also, some solution to this needs to be more people having a "meh" attitude cause the hysteria is what's been feeding this problem.

Given the number of pregnancies in Missouri I estimate well over 100 pregnancies per year, likely on the order of several hundred will be in the ectopic pregnancy but the woman has to wait till her life is in danger category. If you're not in one of these red states (and I am), you don't have to worry about it for yourself.

Someone said this before me but politics have become a phenomenon where it's like a dog chasing a blinking red light on a moving car, but then the dog actually catches up to the car and bites the light and it won't like what it finds. This will eventually pass as you wrote Sushi. It will affect plenty of psychiatrists but likely just the ER and inpatient psychiatrists in red states and not too often. It will, however, hammer ob-gyn in red states for quite some time.
 
Late to the thread but one point that I haven't seen so far is that as a CAP this is going to be a ticking time bomb.

Think of all the existing child protective custody cases - imagine the worst cases of neglect, abuse, trauma of kids growing up unwanted, in foster homes, or by bio parents who are unable to emotionally or financially take care of them.

Now multiple that by many fold. If kids with supportive families of means are having a this hard of a time accessing MH care, imagine how kids without will fare in life.

I am no formal economist or sociologist by any means but I think society may be headed to greater turmoil in the next 1-2 decades once those individuals become of age.
I agree, research on unwantedness is pretty convincing that there are significant individual mental health costs to this as well as societal costs (e.g. crime). As abortion will remain legal in many states, the only individuals this will impact is those without the financial and cognitive means to arrange out-of-state abortion and this is very likely to put further demand for pediatric mental health services. Everything Steve Levitt has studied around abortion has been replicated over the past 2 decades, we will see what the next 2 decades show.
 
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