Roe v. Wade: implications for psychiatrists?

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CAP is already a time bomb. There are more concerning things like the fall out of Covid policies. Or family unit destruction from meth, crack, heroin, alcohol etc. Now we have the increasing publications of increasing youth cannabis use and that of young adults.

The economy itself is just as big of an impact on CAP, poor economy, less employment, or more relevant to today *inflation*, and the cascade of financial stress on low income family units.

Then we have the defund police movement... just in my local area the detectives are all being pulled off their cases to now do road patrols. Imagine the child abuse and homicide detectives in your area... just not there, or even if they still are technically holding those positions not having any time to effectively work their cases, which by the way, during the covid era already caused cases to spike. Open season for criminals, and tragedy for victims.

These are the real things that are going to impact society, and CAP - not abortion. Abortion is political foot ball meant to distract people.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

CAP is already a time bomb. There are more concerning things like the fall out of Covid policies. Or family unit destruction from meth, crack, heroin, alcohol etc. Now we have the increasing publications of increasing youth cannabis use and that of young adults.

The economy itself is just as big of an impact on CAP, poor economy, less employment, or more relevant to today *inflation*, and the cascade of financial stress on low income family units.

Then we have the defund police movement... just in my local area the detectives are all being pulled off their cases to now do road patrols. Imagine the child abuse and homicide detectives in your area... just not there, or even if they still are technically holding those positions not having any time to effectively work their cases, which by the way, during the covid era already caused cases to spike. Open season for criminals, and tragedy for victims.

These are the real things that are going to impact society, and CAP - not abortion. Abortion is political foot ball meant to distract people.

Why not both?

 

[WisNeuro]

CAP is already a time bomb. There are more concerning things like the fall out of Covid policies. Or family unit destruction from meth, crack, heroin, alcohol etc. Now we have the increasing publications of increasing youth cannabis use and that of young adults.

The economy itself is just as big of an impact on CAP, poor economy, less employment, or more relevant to today *inflation*, and the cascade of financial stress on low income family units.

Then we have the defund police movement... just in my local area the detectives are all being pulled off their cases to now do road patrols. Imagine the child abuse and homicide detectives in your area... just not there, or even if they still are technically holding those positions not having any time to effectively work their cases, which by the way, during the covid era already caused cases to spike. Open season for criminals, and tragedy for victims.

These are the real things that are going to impact society, and CAP - not abortion. Abortion is political foot ball meant to distract people.

Talk about a distraction and political footballs, there is no real defund the police movement. Heck, in the epicenter of the "defund the police movement" of Minneapolis, there was an approved significant increase in MPDs budget. This is more of a function of the larger work force issues than a fake "defund" movement. Most cities, like MPLS, are increasing their funding, and in general, changes in budget correspond to overall budget issues rather than specific cuts or increases to police budgets.

America’s Big Cities Aren’t Defunding the Police

But roughly half of cities analyzed by CityLab actually increased spending or kept it flat as a percentage of their discretionary spending in 2021.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think I predicted this on another thread about this topic a couple weeks ago. Working with clients for almost 20 years and for the first time in my practice the topic of the session was patient deciding whether or not to terminate a pregnancy. Ironic how that works. To be honest I’m kind of surprised I haven’t dealt with this more often. There are no easy answers and I did what I could to support my patient walk through the decision as best they could. I am glad that the government was not a factor in any of the discussion. It was about personal values and fears, other family members perspectives, practical matters, mental health concerns, etc.

From a political perspective, I think this was a pyrrhic victory for the right wing conservatives and that it will cost them more in the long run than they gained. I get that there are people staunchly committed to preventing abortions from a religious or moral stance and I understand why they would celebrate this. On the surface, it almost sounds like a good thing to prevent abortions and that life is precious. However, some people are not capable of raising a child and the system is even less capable of that and adoption also has its costs. There is definitely a dark side of preventing abortions and we will see more of that as we go forward.

 

[Proudfather94]

I think what people mentioned already is pretty true. More trauma and inpatient visits from forced pregnancy and more child visits in the upcoming years from abuse and neglect. Do you guys think Psychiatrists can be criminally or civilly charged if a woman commits suicide while pregnant? I could definitely see a situation of it happening where a pregnant woman tells one they are suicidal and it is not reported. They could compare it to a situation like a patient stating that they want to murder someone and it is not reported and they go through with it. This would force Psychiatrists to report, which would result in severe distrust of Psychiatrists from pregnant women likely resulting in refusal to see one or let their children see one.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think what people mentioned already is pretty true. More trauma and inpatient visits from forced pregnancy and more child visits in the upcoming years from abuse and neglect. Do you guys think Psychiatrists can be criminally or civilly charged if a woman commits suicide while pregnant? I could definitely see a situation of it happening where a pregnant woman tells one they are suicidal and it is not reported. They could compare it to a situation like a patient stating that they want to murder someone and it is not reported and they go through with it. This would force Psychiatrists to report, which would result in severe distrust of Psychiatrists from pregnant women likely resulting in refusal to see one or let their children see one.

Each state is going to have its own laws and there are challenges to the state laws in multiple states. At least in this state, even if the new trigger law goes into effect which it might not due to a stay by the state supreme court, the only ones who are liable for prosecution are medical providers who provide abortions. A women could provide her own abortion which would include suicide and that would not be illegal. Very dark stuff in some ways, but that is the reality of what we deal with and the sunny pro-life Christian types tend to deny. In other words, there will be suicides of patients who are pregnant and unable to get abortions. As far as civil charges, anyone can file a suit, but I would surmise the risk as pretty low and more of an add-on to a potential suit for malpractice related to a suicide that could already be possible.

 

[Proudfather94]

Each state is going to have its own laws and there are challenges to the state laws in multiple states. At least in this state, even if the new trigger law goes into effect which it might not due to a stay by the state supreme court, the only ones who are liable for prosecution are medical providers who provide abortions. A women could provide her own abortion which would include suicide and that would not be illegal. Very dark stuff in some ways, but that is the reality of what we deal with and the sunny pro-life Christian types tend to deny. In other words, there will be suicides of patients who are pregnant and unable to get abortions. As far as civil charges, anyone can file a suit, but I would surmise the risk as pretty low and more of an add-on to a potential suit for malpractice related to a suicide that could already be possible.

They wouldn't be able to nail you for the abortion, but I'm sure there is a law you break for failing to report a potential future murder if there is sufficient evidence that one may occurr. By these states logic of charging someone with homicide for having/providing an abortion, that fetus is a person. If they end the fetuses life and a psychiatrist was told by the mother that they were going to do it and it went unreported the state may treat it the same as if you didn't report someone saying that they are going to murder their neighbor. If someone sues a psychiatrist for this as well for malpractice they will have to treat it as if you failed to report someone confessing that they want to commit murder. I highly doubt that case would be lost and a physicians license may be lost from that as well.

 

[Candidate2017]

There's not a single thread about Roe v. Wade on the OB-GYN board. I think this is more evidence that psychiatrists worry too much.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

There's not a single thread about Roe v. Wade on the OB-GYN board. I think this is more evidence that psychiatrists worry too much.

probably cause the OBGYN board is dead. Most recent post on there was from a week ago and the next most recent was a month ago. They're too busy dealing with this stuff in real life to post on SDN during their patient no-shows

 

[Merovinge]

There's not a single thread about Roe v. Wade on the OB-GYN board. I think this is more evidence that psychiatrists worry too much.

LOL, you think OB-Gyn isn't worried about this? I have 5 peers in Ob-gyn and 100% have had lengthy social media posts about this.

 

[WisNeuro]

LOL, you think OB-Gyn isn't worried about this? I have 5 peers in Ob-gyn and 100% have had lengthy social media posts about this.

My spouse if family med w/OB, her listservs are going nuts right now. We border several states with trigger laws, clinics in our state are essentially telling her and other abortion trained providers that they can name however many extra hours they want to work.

 

[whopper]

I am not aware of any "homicidal pieces of the right". The homicidal pieces are on the left. For example, Jane's Revenge- per Wikipedia: " Jane's Revenge is an American militant extremist pro-abortion rights group

This is where this is becoming unnecessarily, unconstructively, and political in every bad sense of this word. History, the science of psychology, political psychology, anthropology shows us any political movement with at least thousands of followers will have it's fair share of violent extremists. There abortion clinic bombers, people who've killed abortion providers, people on the R in general who've killed people on the L for disagreeing and vice-versa. E.g. there's video of Trump followers being assaulted by Left-leaning protesters, White guys going into the minority section of town getting beat up, etc.

Anyone making it out that that a political side that literally has millions of people, with all expected spectrums of mild to moderate to extreme, doesn't have anyone committing violence is either flat out lying or ignorant.

I'm pro-environment. There are environmental terrorists. Some guys used to put in iron spikes in trees to harm loggers. And yet people on the L that want an energy plant shut down without an alternative tick me off. They haven't thought this out. They just want it shut down because that power plant is a triggering symbol and they want the symbol destroyed without thinking of getting an alternative source of power in place first. If you want to join the further political BS and make it out like all environmentalists are terrorists you're just adding to the hate and ignorance.

I'm pro-choice and I foresee several pro-choice people possibly targeting key people on the R such as a SCOTUS Justice. When someone threatened Kavanaugh I wasn't surprised at all. Do the easy arithmetic in your head. If one in 100,000 is willing to get violent and there's 1,000,000 people out there that's 10 people right there.

Anyone adding to the "only one side does this" BS is adding to the BS period. It's a common tactic of any political polarizer to make the few violent practitioners the major discussion to make it out as if this is the norm of the other side whether or not it's true.

 

[smalltownpsych]

This is where this is becoming unnecessarily, unconstructively, and political in every bad sense of this word. History, the science of psychology, political psychology, anthropology shows us any political movement with at least thousands of followers will have it's fair share of violent extremists. There abortion clinic bombers, people who've killed abortion providers, people on the R in general who've killed people on the L for disagreeing and vice-versa. E.g. there's video of Trump followers being assaulted by Left-leaning protesters, White guys going into the minority section of town getting beat up, etc.

Anyone making it out that that a political side that literally has millions of people, with all expected spectrums of mild to moderate to extreme, doesn't have anyone committing violence is either flat out lying or ignorant.

I'm pro-environment. There are environmental terrorists. Some guys used to put in iron spikes in trees to harm loggers. And yet people on the L that want an energy plant shut down without an alternative tick me off. They haven't thought this out. They just want it shut down because that power plant is a triggering symbol and they want the symbol destroyed without thinking of getting an alternative source of power in place first. If you want to join the further political BS and make it out like all environmentalists are terrorists you're just adding to the hate and ignorance.

I'm pro-choice and I foresee several pro-choice people possibly targeting key people on the R such as a SCOTUS Justice. When someone threatened Kavanaugh I wasn't surprised at all. Do the easy arithmetic in your head. If one in 100,000 is willing to get violent and there's 1,000,000 people out there that's 10 people right there.

Anyone adding to the "only one side does this" BS is adding to the BS period. It's a common tactic of any political polarizer to make the few violent practitioners the major discussion to make it out as if this is the norm of the other side whether or not it's true.

You sound like some kind of extreme moderate! Or maybe a hard centrist. I am pretty sure that us radical hard centrists types are less likely to commit political violence, but if these wackos on the left and right keep it up…

 

[SeniorWrangler]

I think it’s a good idea to be extremely circumspect in how you chart about reproductive health. In addition to personal liability, your records might be subpoena’d as part of an investigation.

Remember, laws are written by politicians but they are put into practice by law enforcement and prosecutors, who are as ideological, ambitious and shortsighted as any other part of government.

A legal case doesn’t have to be well-founded or even successful to ruin your life.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think it’s a good idea to be extremely circumspect in how you chart about reproductive health. In addition to personal liability, your records might be subpoena’d as part of an investigation.

Remember, laws are written by politicians but they are put into practice by law enforcement and prosecutors, who are as ideological, ambitious and shortsighted as any other part of government.

A legal case doesn’t have to be well-founded or even successful to ruin your life.

Good advice in all areas of practice and especially wise to take extra care when there is a hot topic like this. One ethical question that was on my licensing exam prep stuff was regarding documentation and the correct answer is to take extra pains if there is more chance of legal involvement. The naive and well-meaning yet incorrect answer is to always chart equally carefully.

 

[SeniorWrangler]

Update: the Indiana Attorney General is going after an abortion provider for unclear reasons. There’s a lot of guys out there who want to get on Fox News right now.

 

[WisNeuro]

Update: the Indiana Attorney General is going after an abortion provider for unclear reasons. There’s a lot of guys out there who want to get on Fox News right now.

Looks like he is also opening himself up to a defamation suit. But yeah, this won't be the last time a provider is targeted. Sucks for this provider, whose daughter also faced a kidnapping threat related to her work.