Ross "Floating University"

[Clarus]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Thoughts/opinions on Ross' current situation with the "Floating University?"
Blog | Ross University School of Medicine

 

[marble30]

Well, if I thought AUC temporarily relocating to the UK was out of left field, this one certainly takes the cake!

 

[valid username]

I think it's pretty clever. Imagine being the poor schmuck that introduced the idea though: "how about we camp out over by our Vet school. We could ship in some groceries, rent homes for the faculty..." You knowthe first day of that discussion had to suck LOL

 

[Mad Jack]

All the fun of medical school, now with norovirus.

 

[gyngyn]

To make matters worse, they are not allowing displaced students an alternative to this "solution" without tagging them with a Withdrawal on their transcript (even if they are willing to return later). They want them to continue with this semester no matter what.

 

[valid username]

Ross Orientation, Day 1: our way or the highway/oceanway

As a Rossie, I am in no way surprised that it is mandatory. There is no tolerance for students who don't do what they are told. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who failed out first semester had academic problems. Being 1 minute late for an exam is enough. (And by 1 minute late I mean less than 14 minutes early.)

 

[Skip Intro]

Ross Orientation, Day 1: our way or the highway/oceanway

This is actually an excellent instruction and tutorial about what you will face in your future as a physician - no matter where you went/go to medical school or trained. Get used to it.

And, the red tape is getting thicker, denser, and harder to cut through. That's the reality of practicing medicine now. Lately, the move is more and more towards corporate medicine, as well. This means that you will be, essentially, an employee. A replaceable FTE in the company's eyes.

The days of "what the doctor says goes" are long gone. Don't follow the protocol? Expect to answer to nursing or pharmacy administration. Don't follow the perceived institutional standard of care (even if the result would have been a negative outcome)? Don't be surprised if you get peer-reviewed... and those corporate HR people (you know, the person with a B.A. in "Hotel, Restaurant, and Institutional Management") are going to hold the keys to your career. They will see you as an asset if you produce positive revenue, and a liability if you do anything else. They will drop you in a split-second if those scales tip in the wrong direction. (And, this type of "just get rid of the problem" without care or concern for that stressed-out individual who may be in emotional or mental trouble is pushing some doctors to the brink.)

So, unless you intend to practice in your own office without malpractice insurance and take only cash-paying patients, you will always answer to someone else. "They" used to work for us. Now, we work for "them". So, if you asked me now if it's worth it to go through what I went through to get where I am today, I'd probably say - having the choice to do it all over again - don't waste your time and money. Furthermore, tuition has nearly doubled since I attended. And, for what it means to be called "doctor" now, it just ain't worth it.

The system is so completely broken; our fates are held in the hands of committees, none of whose members are individually responsible for what might happen to you if you step out of line (intentionally or not)... nor do they care.

That's the reality of practicing medicine now. As I said above, get used it it. Don't rock the boat (pun intended). That might be career suicide. Follow their rules and play nice. Or, get off the high seas while you still can.

-Skip

 

[valid username]

I can't imagine anyone making it through Ross without having a very good sense of how insignificant they are, and I attach zero emotion to the statement. For me, this part is easy. I grew up poor, I have cleaned houses, waited tables, done manual labor, etc. I have worked off the clock to keep jobs, I have never reported anyone for sexual harassment-no matter how intolerable it seemed at the time, if I got sick I worked anyway--you don't get fired for passing out on the job but calling in sick is met with a "not a problem" followed by omission from the schedule. (Ever wonder why very low tier jobs don't have set schedules?)

On a recent rotation I told a group of 3rd years "when the nurses come in, give them your chairs. Do not sit back down even if they offer." A couple of weeks into the rotation I heard my attending bragging to her colleague "I have the best students, they even stand up so the nurses can sit." Life is easier if you know your place. I know that I am only as valuable as my bottom line. Why would I expect different? I am very happy that I am allowed to go to the bathroom. Imam also happy that I won't lose my job if the boss catches me standing (time to lean is time to clean). In fact, I learned in my surgery rotation that we are even allowed to sit down at times--I had never seen a lounge in a workplace before.

Yes, my way or the highway is an essential lesson.

 

[pstrick]

Here's info about the ship:
Vessel details for: EXCELLENT (Ro-Ro/Passenger Ship) - IMO 9143441, MMSI 247279000, Call Sign IBBE Registered in Italy | AIS Marine Traffic

At least it looks like parking is close to campus. :/

 

[Skip Intro]

Listen, I get the fact that the Ross administration is strong-arming you guys right now. No one should be surprised. They are likely in dire panic mode at the momemt fearing that they are about to lose a money-making enterprise that was established (and has successfully grown likely beyond their wildest expectations) over just about the past 40 years.

Current students in the pre-clinical program have two choices: (1) play ball or (2) leave. I would think that, if Ross doesn't re-build the campus, there are not going to be too may "future" students that they will get to come to the school... which is bad for everyone including us alums. That should be incentive enough.

Hopefully they'll get things re-established on the campus and get you guys off the HMS Seasick soon. Patience. Learn it early. It will serve you well in your career.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

This is actually an excellent instruction and tutorial about what you will face in your future as a physician - no matter where you went/go to medical school or trained. Get used to it.

And, the red tape is getting thicker, denser, and harder to cut through. That's the reality of practicing medicine now. Lately, the move is more and more towards corporate medicine, as well. This means that you will be, essentially, an employee. A replaceable FTE in the company's eyes.

The days of "what the doctor says goes" are long gone. Don't follow the protocol? Expect to answer to nursing or pharmacy administration. Don't follow the perceived institutional standard of care (even if the result would have been a negative outcome)? Don't be surprised if you get peer-reviewed... and those corporate HR people (you know, the person with a B.A. in "Hotel, Restaurant, and Institutional Management") are going to hold the keys to your career. They will see you as an asset if you produce positive revenue, and a liability if you do anything else. They will drop you in a split-second if those scales tip in the wrong direction. (And, this type of "just get rid of the problem" without care or concern for that stressed-out individual who may be in emotional or mental trouble is pushing some doctors to the brink.)

So, unless you intend to practice in your own office without malpractice insurance and take only cash-paying patients, you will always answer to someone else. "They" used to work for us. Now, we work for "them". So, if you asked me now if it's worth it to go through what I went through to get where I am today, I'd probably say - having the choice to do it all over again - don't waste your time and money. Furthermore, tuition has nearly doubled since I attended. And, for what it means to be called "doctor" now, it just ain't worth it.

The system is so completely broken; our fates are held in the hands of committees, none of whose members are individually responsible for what might happen to you if you step out of line (intentionally or not)... nor do they care.

That's the reality of practicing medicine now. As I said above, get used it it. Don't rock the boat (pun intended). That might be career suicide. Follow their rules and play nice. Or, get off the high seas while you still can.

-Skip

This is great advice Skip!

I don't understand why you don't want to be my friend though. We're really on the same page with this stuff.
You're enlightening these people on the pitfalls of medicine and I'm enlightening them on the pitfalls of the Caribbean. They go hand-in-hand.

 

[Clarus]

It'll be an experience for sure. No other med student can say they spent their time studying medicine on a ship after a category 5 hurricane and do an even more accelerated curriculum than already is.

 

[valid username]

According to my local friends on the island, work on Picard(surrounds campus) is THE priority. It makes sense. When your primary export is ms3's it is difficult to rebuild without that income.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Medicine sucks so why object to getting screwed now? When that is the defense, I think you know its indefensible behavior. It ain't a cruise ship either. It's a car ferry.

 

[It's_A_Service_Wolf]

This is actually an excellent instruction and tutorial about what you will face in your future as a physician - no matter where you went/go to medical school or trained. Get used to it.

And, the red tape is getting thicker, denser, and harder to cut through. That's the reality of practicing medicine now. Lately, the move is more and more towards corporate medicine, as well. This means that you will be, essentially, an employee. A replaceable FTE in the company's eyes.

The days of "what the doctor says goes" are long gone. Don't follow the protocol? Expect to answer to nursing or pharmacy administration. Don't follow the perceived institutional standard of care (even if the result would have been a negative outcome)? Don't be surprised if you get peer-reviewed... and those corporate HR people (you know, the person with a B.A. in "Hotel, Restaurant, and Institutional Management") are going to hold the keys to your career. They will see you as an asset if you produce positive revenue, and a liability if you do anything else. They will drop you in a split-second if those scales tip in the wrong direction. (And, this type of "just get rid of the problem" without care or concern for that stressed-out individual who may be in emotional or mental trouble is)

So, unless you intend to practice in your own office without malpractice insurance and take only cash-paying patients, you will always answer to someone else. "They" used to work for us. Now, we work for "them". So, if you asked me now if it's worth it to go through what I went through to get where I am today, I'd probably say - having the choice to do it all over again - don't waste your time and money. Furthermore, tuition has nearly doubled since I attended. And, for what it means to be called "doctor" now, it just ain't worth it.

The system is so completely broken; our fates are held in the hands of committees, none of whose members are individually responsible for what might happen to you if you step out of line (intentionally or not)... nor do they care.

That's the reality of practicing medicine now. As I said above, get used it it. Don't rock the boat (pun intended). That might be career suicide. Follow their rules and play nice. Or, get off the high seas while you still can.

-Skip

Bad day?

 

[Goro]

Thoughts/opinions on Ross' current situation with the "Floating University?"
Blog | Ross University School of Medicine

Not merely going to medical school in a Third World country, but going to medical school in prison in a Third World country.

 

[wimby2016]

Not merely going to medical school in a Third World country, but going to medical school in prison in a Third World country.

What's wrong with going to medical school in so-called "third world country"? India falls under that category; are you implying being trained in India is substantially inferior than being trained in the west?

I think it would be fairer and perhaps a bit more sympathetic to say that its pretty tragic they are attending a school in a country that has been decimated by a hurricane and that things were terrible enough that they needed to resort to using a cruise ship of the coast.

To answer OP's question, I think the situation is pretty damn unfortunate and I do sympathize with both the students and school (even in spite of their morally questionable profit-based motives). I'm impressed that they're hustling to get things back up and running again, it must be hell...

 

[aformerstudent]

The subject two posts above me is not qualified to make such an assumption. What constitutes third world living conditions to you anyway?

 

[wimby2016]

The subject two posts above me is not qualified to make such an assumption. What constitutes third world living conditions to you anyway?

You referring to me?

 

[Goro]

What's wrong with going to medical school in so-called "third world country"? India falls under that category; are you implying being trained in India is substantially inferior than being trained in the west?

I think it would be fairer and perhaps a bit more sympathetic to say that its pretty tragic they are attending a school in a country that has been decimated by a hurricane and that things were terrible enough that they needed to resort to using a cruise ship of the coast.

To answer OP's question, I think the situation is pretty damn unfortunate and I do sympathize with both the students and school (even in spite of their morally questionable profit-based motives). I'm impressed that they're hustling to get things back up and running again, it must be hell...

Conditions are not what Americans are used to; in no way am I attacking the training of FMGs.

SDNers are also advised that the advice of people who flee Carib schools while failing or getting grades that would insure they never make the thresher's cut (and yet want to go back there!) are not in the best situation to give advice.

And over all, one does not have to be a chicken to criticize an egg, especially when confronted with schools that as a business model engage in educational malpractice.

 

[Moose A Moose]

The subject two posts above me is not qualified to make such an assumption. What constitutes third world living conditions to you anyway?

 

[valid username]

I don't know how public it is, but Ross is helping Dominica. The first floor of the Miramar DeVry building has served as a collection point for pallets destined for Dominica. I'm only in the building about once a week but have seen a lot of necessities moved out. It's a small island, only 72,000 people so these donations are significant. Ross gets a lot of well-deserved bad press. However, I think they rarely get acknowledgement for the good things they do on that island. It's a difficult country to live in, and its citizens don't have a lot of options. You might be surprised at some of the things Ross does for the country (like paying most of the electric bill at the main hospital for many years now).

 

[hmania]

This will serve as major points to talk about during residency interviews for those on the cruise ship

 

[aformerstudent]

It's fascinating how much those who criticize the Caribbean actually know very little about that path; must be a regional issue of some sorts.

The educated argument regarding the Caribbean is not about attending it's about WHO SHOULD ATTEND as certain people do succeed down that route and certain programs are credible paths to becoming a practicing physician.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Conditions are not what Americans are used to; in no way am I attacking the training of FMGs.

SDNers are also advised that the advice of people who flee Carib schools while failing or getting grades that would insure they never make the thresher's cut (and yet want to go back there!) are not in the best situation to give advice.

And over all, one does not have to be a chicken to criticize an egg, especially when confronted with schools that as a business model engage in educational malpractice.

Your criticisms again ring hollow. When you've got the personal experience and expertise to back up your criticism, we'll start to pay attention.

"Conditions are not what Americans are used to" What the hell does that even mean? Americans are not some homogeneous block that all think and live the same way you do. You have no authority to make such an audacious claim. Just because it's not something you would be amenable to, does not mean it's not appealing to others. Taking a calculated risk does not make one foolhardy.

What about those of us that did make the "thresher's cut?" Are we allowed to give advice that differs from yours? Are we allowed to challenge this status quo?

Chicken, indeed.

 

[mcat_taker]

What's wrong with going to medical school in so-called "third world country"? India falls under that category; are you implying being trained in India is substantially inferior than being trained in the west?

Yes, choosing to attend medical school in a developing country when one is coming from the U.S. is more difficult- see hurricanes and needing to restart on a ship. Nothing against Ross as a program, I have lots of friends who went to school in the Caribbean, but I'm sure it adds more stressors as to what is already a stressful time. I can't imagine how much stress those kids are going through right now.

Yes, going to medical school in India is inferior. There is a reason why people come to the U.S. to train from all over the world. People from all over the world are not trying to train in India. Nothing against India or Indian doctors (there are skilled doctors everywhere in the world), but to say that the training overall is comparable in developing countries vs places like the U.S./ Australia/ Western Europe is just disingenuous.

 

[metoo]

Us AUC students are heading back to the island in January, just thought I'd share. Also, I feel extremely sorry for my friends at Ross. I know a few that have been through so much and are now giving up on their dream of becoming a doctor because of what has happen. Good luck to all of you.

 

[aformerstudent]

Yes, choosing to attend medical school in a developing country when one is coming from the U.S. is more difficult- see hurricanes and needing to restart on a ship. Nothing against Ross as a program, I have lots of friends who went to school in the Caribbean, but I'm sure it adds more stressors as to what is already a stressful time. I can't imagine how much stress those kids are going through right now.

Yes, going to medical school in India is inferior. There is a reason why people come to the U.S. to train from all over the world. People from all over the world are not trying to train in India. Nothing against India or Indian doctors (there are skilled doctors everywhere in the world), but to say that the training overall is comparable in developing countries vs places like the U.S./ Australia/ Western Europe is just disingenuous.

Dude you should seriously stop posting about stuff you have ZERO experience with.

1. You've never been to the Caribbean so how would you know if it's "more difficult?" Why don't you let students who have actually been there chime in on that subject.
SGU had a major hurricane in 2004 and it's still up and going and producing doctors. FYI, not all of these schools are subject to storms.

2. What "stressors" man? Care to elaborate? We lived like kings down there with all that federal money. Yeah, you can't "imagine what those students are going through" because YOU'RE NOT THERE genius!

3. Going to medical school in India is inferior? What data did you compile to make such a bold statement LOL? The Indian professors I had complained that these US-style programs don't teach you the basic sciences correctly. My anatomy professor scolded me that he was taught 2-3x more information than what they were obligated to teach us in gross anatomy. You need to do more research before you make such ballsy statements my friend.

4. For any doctor to practice here, you do realize they would need some US or "developed nation" clinical training right? So if the training in their home country was "inferior" as you say, how would they pass the required entrance exams to start clinical training here?

5. As far as the "comparability" of training, why don't you research the matter for us and post your findings here instead of making ballsy statements which have no real substance?

 

[valid username]

Lived like kings??? LOL- not so much.

I spent too much time trying to find groceries. You know--beans, rice, potatoes, green bananas, etc.

We carried home water every day for almost 2 years.

I spent most sundays in my yard washing clothes in buckets. My children and I learned to twist laundry as a team before hanging it up so it could be dry by the next day. The medial sides of my thumbs finally healed a month after we got back to the us.

We had electricity, we had water, we had internet. But rarely all 3 at the same time.

Dominica has a 150% tax on paper products. Five dollars for a roll of toilet tissue.

Then there were the storms. The last one flooded us out of our home. We slept on a classroom floor with an alphabet foam mat in lieu of a mattress. 3 sheets and a few baby blankets for a whole family. But we had it good, most students weren't even allowed on campus. I stood outside the gates with my children until they let us in. We were told to go back to our flooded home. Sometimes you just can't follow the rules.

It was still an overall positive experience--but living like kings? Hardly.

 

[aformerstudent]

Lived like kings??? LOL- not so much.

I spent too much time trying to find groceries. You know--beans, rice, potatoes, green bananas, etc.

We carried home water every day for almost 2 years.

I spent most sundays in my yard washing clothes in buckets. My children and I learned to twist laundry as a team before hanging it up so it could be dry by the next day. The medial sides of my thumbs finally healed a month after we got back to the us.

We had electricity, we had water, we had internet. But rarely all 3 at the same time.

Dominica has a 150% tax on paper products. Five dollars for a roll of toilet tissue.

Then there were the storms. The last one flooded us out of our home. We slept on a classroom floor with an alphabet foam mat in lieu of a mattress. 3 sheets and a few baby blankets for a whole family. But we had it good, most students weren't even allowed on campus. I stood outside the gates with my children until they let us in. We were told to go back to our flooded home. Sometimes you just can't follow the rules.

It was still an overall positive experience--but living like kings? Hardly.

Wow, remind me not to consider Ross in the future then lol.

On my tiny island, I had a modern apartment overlooking the water with a car, I baked brownies on the weekends, we had lobster and filet mignon after block exams, and I could buy my Pop Tarts and Jimmy Dean sausage and egg sandwiches at the grocery store.

Don't get me wrong I paid for all of it but it didn't exactly break the bank either. There were others who took the more menial approach due to finances but it really is what you make of it down there. You can also ship as many barrels as you wish and the process is rather seamless.

 

[wimby2016]

Yes, choosing to attend medical school in a developing country when one is coming from the U.S. is more difficult- see hurricanes and needing to restart on a ship. Nothing against Ross as a program, I have lots of friends who went to school in the Caribbean, but I'm sure it adds more stressors as to what is already a stressful time. I can't imagine how much stress those kids are going through right now.

Yes, going to medical school in India is inferior. There is a reason why people come to the U.S. to train from all over the world. People from all over the world are not trying to train in India. Nothing against India or Indian doctors (there are skilled doctors everywhere in the world), but to say that the training overall is comparable in developing countries vs places like the U.S./ Australia/ Western Europe is just disingenuous.

My point was that attending a school in the "third-world" is not in and of itself criteria for having a terrible time, as Goro implied. It is sensible to pity students training in countries that have been leveled by natural disasters. However it is not sensible and quite presumptuous to pity students who train in developing countries. Sure, it would be ideal for them to live in a wealthy, developed country, but I do not think it is fair to downright pity them.

It's practically impossible for foreign students to gain admission to US med schools, so it is difficult to ascertain the extent to which foreigners want to come here for medical school.

Indeed, many come here for residency and beyond, but it cannot be said for sure that the superiority of the quality of training is the sole reason they emigrate. My parents are both Indian trained physicians who began residency there, but decided to go to the UK (and eventually the USA) in the pursuit of a higher standard of living, not a better education. They are both highly competent physicians who run their own clinic, who, mind you, were held to the same standard (if not a higher standard) as US graduates when applying for residency in the states.

Furthermore, I would say you are pulling your evaluation of the quality of Indian med schools out of your *** and basing your argument on feelings and speculation. I do not think you are qualified to posit that all US medical schools are objectively superior in quality of training than all Indian medical schools. Yes, it is a fact that the standard of living in India is inferior to that of the west based on criteria like life expectancy, GDP per capita, median income, infrastructure, etc. but it is logically incoherent to extend that comparison to the standards of medical education.

 

[valid username]

Wow, remind me not to consider Ross in the future then lol.

You definitely should not consider Ross if you are counting on having much of anything you recognize in the grocery store.

And baking brownies on the weekends? Maybe. But fueling the oven means you are going to run out of propane sooner. It's a pain to get another propane tank. And if James store is out of the right kind you are going to be carrying that 40lbs home. And do you even have the right tool to change it out?

Did you have air conditioning? In your kitchen? I don't know many apartments or houses in Dominica like that.

The point is, on many of the islands living conditions are not what most people in the US are used to. Some people can deal with that, some can't. But it is definitely a potential stressor in what is already a stressful situation. Medical school is difficult enough already, and island life certainly throws extra challenges into the mix. I found the very frequent interruptions of utilities to be among the most challenging. There aren't really enough hours in the day to learn everything, so all those interruptions are very difficult to deal with.

 

[mcat_taker]

My point was that attending a school in the "third-world" is not in and of itself criteria for having a terrible time, as Goro implied. It is sensible to pity students training in countries that have been leveled by natural disasters. However it is not sensible and quite presumptuous to pity students who train in developing countries. Sure, it would be ideal for them to live in a wealthy, developed country, but I do not think it is fair to downright pity them.

It's practically impossible for foreign students to gain admission to US med schools, so it is difficult to ascertain the extent to which foreigners want to come here for medical school.

Indeed, many come here for residency and beyond, but it cannot be said for sure that the superiority of the quality of training is the sole reason they emigrate. My parents are both Indian trained physicians who began residency there, but decided to go to the UK (and eventually the USA) in the pursuit of a higher standard of living, not a better education. They are both highly competent physicians who run their own clinic, who, mind you, were held to the same standard (if not a higher standard) as US graduates when applying for residency in the states.

Furthermore, I would say you are pulling your evaluation of the quality of Indian med schools out of your *** and basing your argument on feelings and speculation. I do not think you are qualified to posit that all US medical schools are objectively superior in quality of training than all Indian medical schools. Yes, it is a fact that the standard of living in India is inferior to that of the west based on criteria like life expectancy, GDP per capita, median income, infrastructure, etc. but it is logically incoherent to extend that comparison to the standards of medical education.

I don't think anyone is pitying students who train in developing countries or implying they are inferior! After all every country trains doctors to take care of their population. I felt that Goro's point was to say that Americans going to medical school on a developing Caribbean Island face additional stress that not everyone factors when choosing to go. Which I can see happening! I've read plenty of posts on this forum that electricity and internet go out randomly, humidity shorts out electronics, food is expensive and not as diverse, transport problems, storms, burglaries etc. These are all things to think about. I've seen people write that some students turn around and fly back home because not everyone can adjust to living there.

In terms of my point about India- You are right I'm not an expert I've never been to an Indian medical school or trained there, and I shouldn't make assumptions about it but doing a quick search you can read about the rampant fraud, fake degrees (About 45 percent of the people in India who practice medicine have no formal training, according to the Indian Medical Association. These 700,000 unqualified doctors have been found practicing at some of India’s biggest hospitals, giving diagnoses, prescribing medicines and even conducting surgery), bribery, and cheating that goes on in medical education there

Special Report: Why India's medical schools are plagued with fraud

Your point regarding underdeveloped infrastructure is still relevant to the scope of medical education because how can hospitals function well without it? Surgeries, advanced critical care all require stable infrastructure and technology. Are you saying medical research in India is at the cutting edge like it is in the U.S. ?

"The Indian Council of Medical Research(ICMR), which has about 800 scientists working across 32 institutes in the country, cannot list even one new intervention -- in terms of new drug, vaccine, diagnostic test or treatment procedure -- developed by its hundreds of scientists over a period of last two years."

The Sorry State of Medical Research in India - ET HealthWorld

Problems plaguing medical education: Why India suffers a severe lack of quality doctors : Featurephilia

 

[wimby2016]

I don't think anyone is pitying students who train in developing countries or implying they are inferior! After all every country trains doctors to take care of their population. I felt that Goro's point was to say that Americans going to medical school on a developing Caribbean Island face additional stress that not everyone factors when choosing to go. Which I can see happening! I've read plenty of posts on this forum that electricity and internet go out randomly, humidity shorts out electronics, food is expensive and not as diverse, transport problems, storms, burglaries etc. These are all things to think about. I've seen people write that some students turn around and fly back home because not everyone can adjust to living there.


In terms of my point about India- You are right I'm not an expert I've never been to an Indian medical school or trained there, and I shouldn't make assumptions about it but doing a quick search you can read about the rampant fraud, fake degrees (About 45 percent of the people in India who practice medicine have no formal training, according to the Indian Medical Association. These 700,000 unqualified doctors have been found practicing at some of India’s biggest hospitals, giving diagnoses, prescribing medicines and even conducting surgery), bribery, and cheating that goes on in medical education there

Special Report: Why India's medical schools are plagued with fraud

Your point regarding underdeveloped infrastructure is still relevant to the scope of medical education because how can hospitals function well without it? Surgeries, advanced critical care all require stable infrastructure and technology. Are you saying medical research in India is at the cutting edge like it is in the U.S. ?

"The Indian Council of Medical Research(ICMR), which has about 800 scientists working across 32 institutes in the country, cannot list even one new intervention -- in terms of new drug, vaccine, diagnostic test or treatment procedure -- developed by its hundreds of scientists over a period of last two years."

The Sorry State of Medical Research in India - ET HealthWorld

Problems plaguing medical education: Why India suffers a severe lack of quality doctors : Featurephilia

1. The proposition that 45% of medical practitioners received no formal training does not necessarily mean medical training is poor; at face value it appears that these medical practitioners avoided medical school altogether - could you clarify what you mean by "formal training?" Does this mean that the due process of becoming a doctor is flawed itself, or that individuals are bypassing the typical route?

2. I am not arguing that healthcare delivery and innovation is up to par with the USA. I am simply stating that medical education itself is not substantially inferior. That is to say, my parents suffered no substantial disadvantage in foundational knowledge and clinical acumen after going through medical school in India.

-A recent paper (2017) found that patients treated by IMGs in the USA (primarily consisting of "third world" countries like India, Pakistan, Phillipines, Mexico, and more) experienced lower mortality rates than those treated by US medical graduates. Source: Quality of care delivered by general internists in US hospitals who graduated from foreign versus US medical schools: observational study | The BMJ

So, when controlling for things like infrastructure and quality of healthcare delivery, IMGs offer better pt. outcomes than US medical graduates. This doesn't mean medical education in the USA is inferior, but rather than IMG education (i.e. India) need not be considered inherently worse.

Yes, corruption/fraud is a major major issue, but I don't think the quality of proper training significantly worse in and of itself.

 

[aformerstudent]

"third world"

Fellas, "third world" is not something embedded in your DNA; it's not something that follows you to school, to work, and through your career.

I went to school on an island that could be considered "third world." I did not live in "third world" conditions...our school was not a "third world" thatched-roof hut. Plenty of people in those countries do not live in "third world" conditions and a lot of those people end up going to medical school and so on and so forth.

I've been to at least five "third world" countries in my lifetime and I personally did not live in "third world" conditions while I was there. In Nevis, there is a Four Seasons resort and I think Bill Gates owns it or something like that. Some people in the US will never spend a day at a place like that yet we, as medical students, used to chill there whenever we wanted to. My point? You have two ends of the spectrum and nobody knows where each individual person falls. Some of those "third world" doctors probably have more money and more influence than you do.

Keep an open mind with the "third world." Don't let western media influence you about that part of the world when you know nothing about it.

 

[wimby2016]

Fellas, "third world" is not something embedded in your DNA; it's not something that follows you to school, to work, and through your career.

I went to school on an island that could be considered "third world." I did not live in "third world" conditions...our school was not a "third world" thatched-roof hut. Plenty of people in those countries do not live in "third world" conditions and a lot of those people end up going to medical school and so on and so forth.

I've been to at least five "third world" countries in my lifetime and I personally did not live in "third world" conditions while I was there. In Nevis, there is a Four Seasons resort and I think Bill Gates owns it or something like that. Some people in the US will never spend a day at a place like that yet we, as medical students, used to chill there whenever we wanted to. My point? You have two ends of the spectrum and nobody knows where each individual person falls. Some of those "third world" doctors probably have more money and more influence than you do.

Keep an open mind with the "third world." Don't let western media influence you about that part of the world when you know nothing about it.

Well, having been all over India several times (most of my family lives there), there certainly is a marked difference between the so called "third world" and the west. Take one of the wealthier cities in India, Bombay, for example. Over 60% of its population lives in slums. The quality of roads is so poor I find it laughable when people call America's infrastructure "crumbling." Police are regularly paid off, there is no such thing as 'EMS', tap water is undrinkable, trash literally floods the streets, and poverty is IMMENSE. For every homeless person you see begging for money in the streets of NYC, there are 1000 in Bombay. And this is the CITY! Rural areas are even worse. A rural town in India does not even compare to a rural town in the USA.

The "third-world" is not some media-driven construct; it is very real. Sure, things are improving, but the standard of living for the average individual in India is far, far below that of the average individual in the US.

 

[aformerstudent]

Well, having been all over India several times (most of my family lives there), there certainly is a marked difference between the so called "third world" and the west. Take one of the wealthier cities in India, Bombay, for example. Over 60% of its population lives in slums. The quality of roads is so poor I find it laughable when people call America's infrastructure "crumbling." Police are regularly paid off, there is no such thing as 'EMS', tap water is undrinkable, trash literally floods the streets, and poverty is IMMENSE. For every homeless person you see begging for money in the streets of NYC, there are 1000 in Bombay. And this is the CITY! Rural areas are even worse. A rural town in India does not even compare to a rural town in the USA.

The "third-world" is not some media-driven construct; it is very real. Sure, things are improving, but the standard of living for the average individual in India is far, far below that of the average individual in the US.

Did you read my post? Read it again with your finger going over each word on the screen and enunciate each word slowly. I said as it pertains to the medical profession, you cannot look at someone from a "third world" country and assume that the person themselves is somehow "third world" with regards to skills, education, etc. hence why I said that label is not attached to their DNA. I'm talking about doctors and you're talking about slums? This is SDN not the WHO.

The discussion was about doctors coming out of "third world" countries as some people have been arguing that is somehow a bad thing or they are inferior by default. My argument, if you read my last post slowly, was that despite the "third world" label, that doesn't define all the people withing that community, hence my example of a five star resort on a third world island.

The media highlights the bad, they don't talk about those who go outside the norm. News is propaganda. You will learn this as you get older.

Case in point? All you see is slums...are you looking beyond that?

 

[wimby2016]

Did you read my post? Read it again with your finger going over each word on the screen and enunciate each word slowly. I said as it pertains to the medical profession, you cannot look at someone from a "third world" country and assume that the person themselves is somehow "third world" with regards to skills, education, etc. hence why I said that label is not attached to their DNA. I'm talking about doctors and you're talking about slums? This is SDN not the WHO.

The discussion was about doctors coming out of "third world" countries as some people have been arguing that is somehow a bad thing or they are inferior by default. My argument, if you read my last post slowly, was that despite the "third world" label, that doesn't define all the people withing that community, hence my example of a five star resort on a third world island.

The media highlights the bad, they don't talk about those who go outside the norm. News is propaganda. You will learn this as you get older.

Case in point? All you see is slums...are you looking beyond that?

I was arguing on the side of Indian trained physicians being as equally qualified/prepared as those in the west.

By no means does the the adjective "third-world" refer to a nation's inhabitants but rather the degree to which its technology and economy are developed.

I don't need a lesson from you on the wealth stratification within third world nations. As I said in my previous reply, I have visited India (among other developing countries) many many times. My grandparents are quite well off and yes, life is good for them. My point is that the media's depiction of the third world isn't as fabricated as you're making it out to be. Also, do you think I'm basing my opinion on the news? I literally walked the streets of and lived in several Indian cities, both large and small. Yes, the media "highlights" the bad, but the average quality of life in India is objectively lower than that of the west. I mean, come on, you're expecting me to "see past" the fact that the majority of Mumbai's inhabitants live in slums? Sure, there are some that live in multi million dollar penthouses and mansions, as some do in the USA. However, the person who falls in the middle of the pack in India fares much worse than their counterpart in the US.

 

[aformerstudent]

I was arguing on the side of Indian trained physicians being as equally qualified/prepared as those in the west.

By no means does the the adjective "third-world" refer to a nation's inhabitants but rather the degree to which its technology and economy are developed.

I don't need a lesson from you on the wealth stratification within third world nations. As I said in my previous reply, I have visited India (among other developing countries) many many times. My grandparents are quite well off and yes, life is good for them. My point is that the media's depiction of the third world isn't as fabricated as you're making it out to be. Also, do you think I'm basing my opinion on the news? I literally walked the streets of and lived in several Indian cities, both large and small. Yes, the media "highlights" the bad, but the average quality of life in India is objectively lower than that of the west. I mean, come on, you're expecting me to "see past" the fact that the majority of Mumbai's inhabitants live in slums? Sure, there are some that live in multi million dollar penthouses and mansions, as some do in the USA. However, the person who falls in the middle of the pack in India fares much worse than their counterpart in the US.

You're lost man.

 

[wimby2016]

You're lost man.

Ah, thanks for logically coherent response. I like the part where you defended your point.

If your argument is that all inhabitants of a third-world country don't live in squalor, I agree.

An ad hominem doesn't quite weaken my argument. I'll take it as a concedence.

 

[aformerstudent]

Ah, thanks for logically coherent response. I like the part where you defended your point.

If your argument is that all inhabitants of a third-world country don't live in squalor, I agree.

An ad hominem doesn't quite weaken my argument. I'll take it as a concedence.

Stop responding. I don't do back and forth's with tiny brains.

 

[wimby2016]

Stop responding. I don't do back and forth's with tiny brains.

Dang, back at it again with an ad hominem. Why am I tiny brained? I made an argument, and you responded by insulting me. Looks like you are the one with the tiny brain. Don't worry, our "conversation" has gone so off the rails that a moderator will prob put an end to this thread anyways.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Please stay on topic

 

[mcat_taker]

1. The proposition that 45% of medical practitioners received no formal training does not necessarily mean medical training is poor; at face value it appears that these medical practitioners avoided medical school altogether - could you clarify what you mean by "formal training?" Does this mean that the due process of becoming a doctor is flawed itself, or that individuals are bypassing the typical route?

2. I am not arguing that healthcare delivery and innovation is up to par with the USA. I am simply stating that medical education itself is not substantially inferior. That is to say, my parents suffered no substantial disadvantage in foundational knowledge and clinical acumen after going through medical school in India.

-A recent paper (2017) found that patients treated by IMGs in the USA (primarily consisting of "third world" countries like India, Pakistan, Phillipines, Mexico, and more) experienced lower mortality rates than those treated by US medical graduates. Source: Quality of care delivered by general internists in US hospitals who graduated from foreign versus US medical schools: observational study | The BMJ

So, when controlling for things like infrastructure and quality of healthcare delivery, IMGs offer better pt. outcomes than US medical graduates. This doesn't mean medical education in the USA is inferior, but rather than IMG education (i.e. India) need not be considered inherently worse.

Yes, corruption/fraud is a major major issue, but I don't think the quality of proper training significantly worse in and of itself.

If you look at rankings at the top medical schools in the world. None of them are from India.

Best universities for medicine

Medicine

I don't see any in the top 100.

People also come to the U.S./ Western Europe/ Australia from all over the world for complex medical treatments they can't get anywhere else from experts that don't exist anywhere else. They do not go to India for this treatment.

That article you cite of IMGs who offer better patient outcomes still TRAINED in the U.S. in order to be qualified working physicians here, which is even more important than where they went to medical school-- the fact they did residency here in the U.S, just like your parents did thats why "there are no fundamental gaps in their clinical acumen" as you stated.

I get that you are incredibly proud of your parents and heritage but lets not act like Indian medical education is now world class.

 

[aformerstudent]

If you look at rankings at the top medical schools in the world. None of them are from India.

Best universities for medicine

Medicine

I don't see any in the top 100.

People also come to the U.S./ Western Europe/ Australia from all over the world for complex medical treatments they can't get anywhere else from experts that don't exist anywhere else. They do not go to India for this treatment.

That article you cite of IMGs who offer better patient outcomes still TRAINED in the U.S. in order to be qualified working physicians here, which is even more important than where they went to medical school-- the fact they did residency here in the U.S, just like your parents did thats why "there are no fundamental gaps in their clinical acumen" as you stated.

I get that you are incredibly proud of your parents and heritage but lets not act like Indian medical education is now world class.

You're an idiot. Go ahead ban me.

 

[wimby2016]

If you look at rankings at the top medical schools in the world. None of them are from India.

Best universities for medicine

Medicine

I don't see any in the top 100.

People also come to the U.S./ Western Europe/ Australia from all over the world for complex medical treatments they can't get anywhere else from experts that don't exist anywhere else. They do not go to India for this treatment.

That article you cite of IMGs who offer better patient outcomes still TRAINED in the U.S. in order to be qualified working physicians here, which is even more important than where they went to medical school-- the fact they did residency here in the U.S, just like your parents did thats why "there are no fundamental gaps in their clinical acumen" as you stated.

I get that you are incredibly proud of your parents and heritage but lets not act like Indian medical education is now world class.

Man, I didn't say Indian schools are world class. It's obvious the best med schools are in the West. Also, my state school doesn't show on that list - does this mean my training is significantly inferior to that of Harvard? Ofc, Harvard is a research powerhouse and has top notch faculty, but I doubt medical schooling itself is markedly superior to that of my globally un-ranked mid tier state school. And that I'm referring to medical school, not residency or quality of medical treatment! Telling me residency and medical procedures here are the best of the best does not quite support the argument that Indian med schools < American med schools. My point was that those who went to SCHOOL in India are not at any significant disadvantage to those trained elsewhere besides their FMG status when applying for residency. Perhaps a good metric for actually assessing the quality of SCHOOLING in India would be mean Step 1/2 scores and performance in residency in the US/other western countries.

Edit: I perused second link you posted a bit further. It appears that there are Indian medical schools better ranked than western/US schools. Given that the ranking list is a relatively valid assessment of relative med school quality, it appears that going to medical school in a third-world country alone is not criterion for inferior medical education, which was my point to begin with - Goro implied that he felt bad that someone had the misfortune of attending a school in the third world, and my response was that attending school in the third world is not a singular indicator of the quality/pleasantness of medical education.

Again, I whole-heartedly agree that American health-care systems are far more robust than those in India; however, I do not agree that Indian medical education is uniformly objectively inferior in preparing future doctors than medical education in the "first-world."

 

[mcat_taker]

Man, I didn't say Indian schools are world class. It's obvious the best med schools are in the West. Also, my state school doesn't show on that list - does this mean my training is significantly inferior to that of Harvard? Ofc, Harvard is a research powerhouse and has top notch faculty, but I doubt medical schooling itself is markedly superior to that of my globally un-ranked mid tier state school. And that I'm referring to medical school, not residency or quality of medical treatment! Telling me residency and medical procedures here are the best of the best does not quite support the argument that Indian med schools < American med schools. My point was that those who went to SCHOOL in India are not at any significant disadvantage to those trained elsewhere besides their FMG status when applying for residency. Perhaps a good metric for actually assessing the quality of SCHOOLING in India would be mean Step 1/2 scores and performance in residency in the US/other western countries.

Edit: I perused second link you posted a bit further. It appears that there are Indian medical schools better ranked than western/US schools. Given that the ranking list is a relatively valid assessment of relative med school quality, it appears that going to medical school in a third-world country alone is not criterion for inferior medical education, which was my point to begin with - Goro implied that he felt bad that someone had the misfortune of attending a school in the third world, and my response was that attending school in the third world is not a singular indicator of the quality/pleasantness of medical education.

Again, I whole-heartedly agree that American health-care systems are far more robust than those in India; however, I do not agree that Indian medical education is uniformly objectively inferior in preparing future doctors than medical education in the "first-world."

Well I think Goro meant that he felt bad that someone had the misfortune of attending Caribbean schools where natural disasters like hurricanes happen frequently, and all the other difficulties they face from an environmental perspective (electricity, humidity, food, transport), mainly because of the added stress of dealing with 3rd world problems compound the already intrinsically stressful time that is medical school and a rigorous medical curriculum. Yes, it takes a certain individual to roll with it and be able to deal with going to school on an island with fewer creature comforts than the mainland U.S.

Somehow this thread went off topic and got derailed into an argument over Indian medical schools.

 

[wimby2016]

Well I think Goro meant that he felt bad that someone had the misfortune of attending Caribbean schools where natural disasters like hurricanes happen frequently, and all the other difficulties they face from an environmental perspective (electricity, humidity, food, transport), mainly because of the added stress of dealing with 3rd world problems compound the already intrinsically stressful time that is medical school and a rigorous medical curriculum. Yes, it takes a certain individual to roll with it and be able to deal with going to school on an island with fewer creature comforts than the mainland U.S.

Somehow this thread went off topic and got derailed into an argument over Indian medical schools.

Yeah, I'll just go ahead and say that's a fair analysis. The Indian med school debate needs to be put to rest.

 

[Ericslv]

Listen, I get the fact that the Ross administration is strong-arming you guys right now. No one should be surprised. They are likely in dire panic mode at the momemt fearing that they are about to lose a money-making enterprise that was established (and has successfully grown likely beyond their wildest expectations) over just about the past 40 years.

Current students in the pre-clinical program have two choices: (1) play ball or (2) leave. I would think that, if Ross doesn't re-build the campus, there are not going to be too may "future" students that they will get to come to the school... which is bad for everyone including us alums. That should be incentive enough.

Hopefully they'll get things re-established on the campus and get you guys off the HMS Seasick soon. Patience. Learn it early. It will serve you well in your career.

-Skip

They will most likely relocate to another island until Dominica gets back on their feet.

 

[Skip Intro]

They will most likely relocate to another island until Dominica gets back on their feet.

Where are you getting this information from? I personally work with a doctor who is from Dominica (and, interestingly, went to med school in the U.S.) and she confirms what valid username says here:

According to my local friends on the island, work on Picard(surrounds campus) is THE priority. It makes sense. When your primary export is ms3's it is difficult to rebuild without that income.

-Skip