Ross Med School being Investigated...vet school next?

[radio2020]

As we all look at plan B's in the months to come, I am sure we are considering going to an offshore school. Although this article is about the medical school, it makes me wonder if the vet school would not be soon to follow with a similar investigation, or if there are similar situations. Something to think about.....


http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

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[zeebra44]

"The situation is different for Amer Alata, who got his M.D. from Ross in 2007, then quickly washed out of an internal medicine residency — and his prospects of becoming a physician. Now saddled with $470,000 in debt, he's teaching part-time but has never been able to afford a payment, making him one of Ross' official defaults."


Wow..just, wow. I am definitely reconsidering Ross after reading this article.

 

[168135]

After reading the article AND the comments, the article seems pretty biased

Oh well... the more students who now chose not to go to Ross based on this one article, the better the chance of me getting in 😛

 

[snapcall]

I definitely think the article is biased as well, but it certainly highlights some important caveats about going to med (or vet) school offshore. While I'm sure it's possible to get an excellent education at Ross, the reality is that the majority of the students enrolled don't make it since the school admits more people than they can realistically keep around. They do this so that they can still get a year or so of tuition out of the students that won't be able to hack it. Just as greed and the tendency to manipulate are not characteristics vet schools desire in the students they admit, I find those traits to be equally undesirable in choosing which schools to apply to. That caribbean schools purposefully overfill their classes KNOWING that students will fail out and SOLELY for financial gain really bothers me. Accordingly, I won't go there if I can avoid it. However, if I'm down to my last app cycle, I can't get into any accredited programs, and a caribbean school is my last and only option, I would absolutely take it. As much as I really don't want to, if that's what I had to do in order to become a veterinarian, I'd be there. Were I looking to become a human doctor, that might not be the case, since (as the article showed) it can be difficult to get a US residency even if you manage to graduate.

Just my two cents.

 

[jpeterman13]

...the reality is that the majority of the students enrolled don't make it since the school admits more people than they can realistically keep around.

So, I definitely wouldn't say that a majority of the students don't make it, in fact, a majority of the student DO make it. so, I don't know where you got that info.This article (extremely biased BTW, which is unanimous it seems) is about the med school here's a few things that are different:

1) The curriculum is different. They spend 4 semesters on the island. Then they all go to Miami (I believe😕) for their clinical rotations. The residency issue is something that is not going away. Medical schools continue to pop up (my undergrad school is currently in the process of getting theirs finished) yet the number of open residency positions continues to remain static.

2) This is not an excuse, but I can guess (based on what my interviewer told me) that a reason for filling classes to the brim is mainly due to two things.
A. A TON of students transfer out of Ross
B. A TON of students end up repeating a semester
C. And obviously, student do fail. It is inevitable. But they had their chance. Maybe being far from home killed them, being on an island was too distracting, whatever.
*All of these factors result in the lowering of the class size.

Anyways, this is a poorly written article. As one of the comments said...they didn't focus in on the success stories from Ross (like those who scored incredibility high on their USMLE). And, above all, the vet school wasn't mentioned in the article, so don't pass judgment on a school based on a lopsided article written about a program completely different from the one that you would be looking at. I am going to Ross in May because I am not very competitive in the US vet schools (interestingly enough, I would be considered competitive in US med schools) and I cannot afford to wait another year for a second US app cycle. Am I ashamed? Nope. Am I excited? hell yes. Would I go to a US school if offered a position? you betcha. But you've gotta do what you've gotta do. If someone gives you an opportunity (esp in this field) you grab onto it and don't let go

 

[snapcall]

So, I definitely wouldn't say that a majority of the students don't make it, in fact, a majority of the student DO make it. so, I don't know where you got that info.

That's fair, I should have qualified what I meant by "making it," which was graduating on time and matching into a US residency (for the med school only, not applicable to the vet school in any way). You are correct that a clear majority of students who matriculate at Ross ultimately obtain their MD, but many have to repeat courses and thus do not graduate on time (that portion may apply to the vet school as well, but I can't tell you one way or the other).

This article (extremely biased BTW, which is unanimous it seems) is about the med school here's a few things that are different:

1) The curriculum is different. They spend 4 semesters on the island. Then they all go to Miami (I believe😕) for their clinical rotations. The residency issue is something that is not going away. Medical schools continue to pop up (my undergrad school is currently in the process of getting theirs finished) yet the number of open residency positions continues to remain static.

2) This is not an excuse, but I do know (based on what my interviewer told me) that a reason for filling classes to the brim is mainly due to two things.
A. A TON of students transfer out of Ross
B. A TON of students end up repeating a semester
C. And obviously, student do fail. It is inevitable. But they had their chance. Maybe being far from home killed them, being on an island was too distracting, whatever.
*All of these factors result in the lowering of the class size.

I would be very interested to see stats on the number of students who transfer out of Ross and complete their education stateside. It would obviously be unfair to include students who transferred out when calculating rates of attrition.

Anyways, this is a poorly written article. As one of the comments said...they didn't focus in on the success stories from Ross (like those who scored incredibility high on their USMLE).

Agreed 👍

And, above all, the vet school wasn't mentioned in the article, so don't pass judgment on a school based on a lopsided article written about a program completely different from the one that you would be looking at. I am going to Ross in May because I am not very competitive in the US vet schools (interestingly enough, I would be considered competitive in US med schools) and I cannot afford to wait another year for a second US app cycle. Am I ashamed? Nope. Am I excited? hell yes. Would I go to a US school if offered a position? you betcha. But you've gotta do what you've gotta do. If someone gives you an opportunity (esp in this field) you grab onto it and don't let go

I pass no judgment whatsoever on the quality of veterinary education that Ross can provide; the statements you take issue with in my previous post were directed at the umbrella institution who makes the policies that contribute to the high attrition rate. If I were in your shoes (and a couple years from now, I may very well be), I would do exactly what you're doing.

 

[lmscout]

I talked to a couple of vets who graduated from there recently, and they told me they thought the education was excellent, and that they felt very prepared, and were able to more in their clinicals in the states than students who went to in state schools because of their excellent experience on the island.

If I hadn't gotten accepted elsewhere, I would have very very seriously considered Ross...

 

[david594]

I talked to a couple of vets who graduated from there recently, and they told me they thought the education was excellent, and that they felt very prepared, and were able to more in their clinicals in the states than students who went to in state schools because of their excellent experience on the island.

If I hadn't gotten accepted elsewhere, I would have very very seriously considered Ross...

I've also worked with a bunch of vets who have graduated from ross and have been very good. And I have some friends that are current students there.

The thing that cannot be ignored is that Ross has an attrition rate that is far higher than any US school. And as such the population going in is not the same as the population coming out.

 

[lunajett]

I talked to a couple of vets who graduated from there recently, and they told me they thought the education was excellent, and that they felt very prepared, and were able to more in their clinicals in the states than students who went to in state schools because of their excellent experience on the island.

Ditto, I've worked with many Ross DVMs and have always found them as good or better than any stateside grads. They've also said the same thing, that when they got to their clinical semesters they seemed to be immediately at the top of the class, better prepared than their stateside classmates. With the remoteness and "primitiveness" of the island, students there seem to be taught to be more capable and self-sufficient, able to handle and adapt to anything. One vet who graduated in the early years (like 15 years ago) said they all had to bring their own microscopes. And a flashlight was standard equipment going into surgery in case the power went out. They just learned to roll with the punches and get through. So I think that is a real strength of the education there.

However, I think I might agree with the gist of the article, that Ross might be setting the entry bar a little too low. Their marketing stuff (for the vet school at least, I assume it's similar for the med) always makes a big deal about looking at "the whole student," more than just grades, following your dream, etc. That's all well and good, but not everybody who "dreams" of being a vet and can stumble through the pre-reqs should be allowed to get in. I went to one of their info sessions and one of the reps said if you're above 3.0 GPA and 1000 GRE, you've got a good shot. I was like 😱 "eh?! that's it?!" Numbers-wise, I'm at the lower end of what most schools would accept, so I'm all for looking beyond raw numbers. But still even for me those stats seem awful low for vet school. If you can't get well above 3.0 and at least close to 1200 maybe you don't deserve a shot and need to adjust your dream. I don't think the problems described for the med school are the same for the vet school, but still Ross might need to look at finding a better balance in who they admit while still allowing for some attrition.

With that all said, I think Ross is still my Plan B, mostly because of my age (42) and I can't just keep applying stateside until I get in. I haven't applied yet, as I have still have reasonable shots at state schools this round. If come March I'm still unaccepted, then I'll probably do a quick app to Ross (sounds like they have fast turnaround, like 1-2 months) and try to get in there for the fall.

 

[peachy3214]

If you can't get well above 3.0 and at least close to 1200 maybe you don't deserve a shot and need to adjust your dream.

This is a ridiculous statement. Being "Book Smart" only gets you so far. I would take a doctor or vet with real world experience, good common sense, and a keen eye, over any deans list ivy league grad. Once you are a vet the academic world is left behind and all it comes down to is who can perform under pressure not who can score the highest marks. When you really look at any medical profession its about deductive reasoning and surgical skill(which can be taught and mastered) not whether or not you can score an A on your undergrad organic chemistry test. GPA is not a measure of whether or not you can hack it.........a WELL ABOVE a 3.0? a 2.0 last I checked was passing so I would say a 3.0 or better is pretty solid in the real world. The GRE is also a joke, it only tests your ability to take a test, not whether or not you are smart. Vet schools only use GPA and the GRE as a means of selection solely because they get so many applicants......if there were more seats available then applicants.......a passing grade is all it would take to get in.

 

[peachy3214]

GPA can also be a reflection of the quality of your undergrad and its science program. As I have said on these boards before.....a B in a top notch science program is worth more than an A at a "party" school or most community colleges.

and to add to that is "well above" a 3.0 is the standard we are using then perhaps all vets should have to share with us their vet school GPAs so only those that had 3.5 or better got any business or credit.

 

[parietal]

One complaint I have heard about Ross vet school is that they don't do enough to support their students academically (tutoring, etc.) even though they accept so many students with lower GPAs. That's one thing that has impressed me more about St. George's. But of course they aren't eligible for federal loans yet. And if the feds are investigating whether or not Ross should get them, I'm guessing that extending them to SGU isn't going to be a priority.

 

[rugbychick16]

This is a ridiculous statement. Being "Book Smart" only gets you so far. I would take a doctor or vet with real world experience, good common sense, and a keen eye, over any deans list ivy league grad. Once you are a vet the academic world is left behind and all it comes down to is who can perform under pressure not who can score the highest marks. When you really look at any medical profession its about deductive reasoning and surgical skill(which can be taught and mastered) not whether or not you can score an A on your undergrad organic chemistry test. GPA is not a measure of whether or not you can hack it.........a WELL ABOVE a 3.0? a 2.0 last I checked was passing so I would say a 3.0 or better is pretty solid in the real world. The GRE is also a joke, it only tests your ability to take a test, not whether or not you are smart. Vet schools only use GPA and the GRE as a means of selection solely because they get so many applicants......if there were more seats available then applicants.......a passing grade is all it would take to get in.

??? Yes, and I'm sure letting all those applicants with just passing grades in would turn out just fine. After all, vet school is so much easier than undergrad, I'm sure with a 2.2 GPA you'd get a 4.0 once in vet school. Why havent schools caught onto this great idea?

 

[DVMDream]

This is a ridiculous statement. Being "Book Smart" only gets you so far. I would take a doctor or vet with real world experience, good common sense, and a keen eye, over any deans list ivy league grad. Once you are a vet the academic world is left behind and all it comes down to is who can perform under pressure not who can score the highest marks. When you really look at any medical profession its about deductive reasoning and surgical skill(which can be taught and mastered) not whether or not you can score an A on your undergrad organic chemistry test. GPA is not a measure of whether or not you can hack it.........a WELL ABOVE a 3.0? a 2.0 last I checked was passing so I would say a 3.0 or better is pretty solid in the real world. The GRE is also a joke, it only tests your ability to take a test, not whether or not you are smart. Vet schools only use GPA and the GRE as a means of selection solely because they get so many applicants......if there were more seats available then applicants.......a passing grade is all it would take to get in.

Yet...You will actually need to understand organic chemistry in vet school and after vet school. One of the vets I work with just had to explain the difference between dexdomitor and domitor to a technician a few years back and he has been out of vet school for 20+ years. So, knowing the undergrad stuff is still important both in and out of vet school. So, if you are just barely passing and barely understanding the information, how are you supposed to be able to apply it clinically? So, yes while GPA might not be the best estimate; it is still a good idea to look at it. And I do not agree with letting people with 2.0 GPA’s into a profession where you will have to be both “book smart” and have good common sense and clinical experience. So, yes it is about more than “book smarts”, but if you can not apply those ideas and concepts then you would be screwed when it comes to diagnosing. And as far as academics being tossed out once you are a vet; this is far from the truth. Vets still go to conferences and are still learning new ideas/concepts; if they weren’t the field would never advance. The vet I work with performs laser surgeries but I can guarantee he wasn’t performing those 20 years ago when he was in school.

 

[jpeterman13]

That's all well and good, but not everybody who "dreams" of being a vet and can stumble through the pre-reqs should be allowed to get in. I went to one of their info sessions and one of the reps said if you're above 3.0 GPA and 1000 GRE, you've got a good shot. I was like 😱 "eh?! that's it?!" Numbers-wise, I'm at the lower end of what most schools would accept, so I'm all for looking beyond raw numbers. But still even for me those stats seem awful low for vet school. If you can't get well above 3.0 and at least close to 1200 maybe you don't deserve a shot and need to adjust your dream.

"If you can't get well above 3.0 and at least close to 1200 maybe you don't deserve a shot and need to adjust your dream." How exactly do you adjust a dream 😕? If I could do that, I'd go to med school and make $150,000 a year. Unfortunately, I cannot change the fact that it is my dream to be a vet. Check out the successful applicant thread from last year, you'll notice that there are quite a few applicants with stats that do not meet this cut-off. Raw numbers are deceiving and rarely give an accurate depiction of the student as a whole. I'm sure that there are applicants with 3.9's who would make terrible vets.

ETA: I, however, do think that once the GPA begins to dip down too far below a 3.0, it will become difficult to survive the rigors of vet school.

 

[parietal]

In my previous college career, I had a 3.4 or so. I can honestly and unequivocally state that there was no way I would have been ready for vet school without a great deal of academic support. Does that mean no one with a 3.4 is prepared for vet school? Absolutely not.

But if many people who have earned 3.8+ in their prereq classes are struggling to pass vet school classes, how do you think those with a 3.0 or less are going to do? (Again, this is on average. Of course there are outliers, there always are.)

I firmly believe that if schools are going to recruit pre-vet students with lower GPAs, they need to provide the support they will need to not only survive but to thrive in vet school. Otherwise you will end up with four-year grad rates of 30.6%. Sure some vets have done extremely well at Ross (my own SA vet is a Ross grad and she's one of the best vets I know). But they are the ones among the third that graduate on time, not the two-thirds who don't.

 

[DRJJ1]

I definitely think the article is biased as well, but it certainly highlights some important caveats about going to med (or vet) school offshore. While I'm sure it's possible to get an excellent education at Ross, the reality is that the majority of the students enrolled don't make it since the school admits more people than they can realistically keep around. They do this so that they can still get a year or so of tuition out of the students that won't be able to hack it. Just as greed and the tendency to manipulate are not characteristics vet schools desire in the students they admit, I find those traits to be equally undesirable in choosing which schools to apply to. That caribbean schools purposefully overfill their classes KNOWING that students will fail out and SOLELY for financial gain really bothers me. Accordingly, I won't go there if I can avoid it. However, if I'm down to my last app cycle, I can't get into any accredited programs, and a caribbean school is my last and only option, I would absolutely take it. As much as I really don't want to, if that's what I had to do in order to become a veterinarian, I'd be there. Were I looking to become a human doctor, that might not be the case, since (as the article showed) it can be difficult to get a US residency even if you manage to graduate.

Just my two cents.

OKKKKKKKKKK and ross doesn t over over fill their classes,,hahaha

 

[sumstorm]

I firmly believe that if schools are going to recruit pre-vet students with lower GPAs, they need to provide the support they will need to not only survive but to thrive in vet school. Otherwise you will end up with four-year grad rates of 30.6%. Sure some vets have done extremely well at Ross (my own SA vet is a Ross grad and she's one of the best vets I know). But they are the ones among the third that graduate on time, not the two-thirds who don't.

I see Ross and other schools like Ross as opportunities for those who had other blocks to success. IE, if my GPA/scores/EC's/life experiences didn't help me get into vet school elsewhere, it would be an opportunity for me to prove that I could hack it out if just given the chance. If I knew my GPA was affected by domestic violence, illness, work/financial strain, or a poor environment, and I had solved those issues, I could make it through, then this was the place that would let me try. But I would see that opportunity as my responsibility and obtaining additional tutoring and support as my responsibility. I know that is hard, and maybe it isn't fair, but I believe that is the reality with for profit educational environments; they are there to make a profit in exchange for providing an opportunity, the same as tutors are there to make an income in exchange for pay... not to support an idealized concept of educational excellence. Of course, that is my belief.

And I don't believe everyone who dreams of being a vet will be able to be a vet, just as everyone who dreams of being an astronaut is not able to be one and alot of that has nothing to do with how smart or great or wonderful or hard working they are; sometimes it just comes down to opportunities and road blocks, limitations and restrictions. I agree the selection process isn't often fair or adequate or even appropriate, but that is what has opened the space for places like Ross to exist.

As far as the OP's concern....it is a concern that I always have. Unless there is a guanranteed contract in place that is enforcable via US law, I always worry that something could go wrong. I tend to have a pessimistic view, but I have been burned often enough to know that money in their pocket means more than my pursuit of my dream to most people.

 

[OtakuVet]

OKKKKKKKKKK and ross doesn t over over fill their classes,,hahaha

Just from my own curiosity because Im one of the few who actually doesnt like Ross, I always preferred SGU for a wide variety of reasons when it came to the carib schools. But I know one thing, in Vet Med Ross's classes arent nearly as big as the Med School classes...you guys deal with something along the lines of 500+ classes right? If that isnt over. I dont know what is. Or is that normal for med classes? if it is...geez...I cant even imagine how many cliques you guys form in four years time.

 

[parietal]

I see Ross and other schools like Ross as opportunities for those who had other blocks to success. ... But I would see that opportunity as my responsibility and obtaining additional tutoring and support as my responsibility. I know that is hard, and maybe it isn't fair, but I believe that is the reality with for profit educational environments; they are there to make a profit in exchange for providing an opportunity.

Interesting point, sumstrom. I agree with you to an extent, but only if students go in knowing exactly what's expected of them. I'm not sure they do. The low grad rate is hardly advertised and the school is marketed as if it is committed to helping students achieve their dreams.

Directly from the Ross University vet school website:

"You are coming to Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine to fulfill your dream of becoming a veterinarian. You want a commitment that you will be prepared in the best way possible to achieve your goal of becoming one. ... Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine can make that commitment." Also, "you will get the education you need to succeed."
​

Although, to be fair, there is a hint in the Dean's Message:

"For the dedicated student, Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine is a proven path to a rewarding career as a veterinarian." (emphasis mine)​

I'm glad Ross is around. I just wish they could offer opportunity without exploiting people's dreams to make a buck. (Although, granted, that's hardly rare among U.S. businesses.)

Edited to add: I have no personal beef with Ross. Other than my vet, who succeeded there herself, I don't personally know anyone who's attended. I'm generally not a fan of for-profit higher education, but I give credit to those who keep students' best interests in mind.

 

[ColoradoDVM]

The thing that cannot be ignored is that Ross has an attrition rate that is far higher than any US school. And as such the population going in is not the same as the population coming out.[/QUOTE]

In my experience having great mentors in your program who really want you to succeed is invaluable. I did not have that in my undergrad experience, earned mediocre grades. I had that in my grad program. Maybe educational mentors are not key for some, but made all of the difference for me. I have no personal experience with Ross, but hope that some of their students don't fall prey to a self fulfilling prophecy. Vet school is tough enough, and knowing some of your classmates (or even you) will probably not make it through is detrimental to psychological well-being 😡

 

[Hopeful07]

The fact of the matter is, if you study efficiently, Ross is going to give you the same quality education as most other schools. The veterinarian that someone becomes depends on the student moreso than the institution. (Although I will admit that some institutions make it harder to succeed).

If you go to Ross thinking that you're going to be able to skate through by cramming right before a test like you may have done in Undergrad, it's not going to work. And if you go thinking that it's going to be a Caribbean vacation, you probably will do poorly. If you're serious about becoming the best veterinarian that you're capable of becoming and understanding the material, then you will succeed.

And with the high attrition rates, you also have to figure in that people are adjusting to the island life. And although it sounds great before you get there, it's a HUGE adjustment. In addition to culture shock, throw in high stresses of veterinary school and a lot of people just end up feeling like it's not worth it and drop out.

It's not easy living in the Caribbean. It's frustrating most of the time; you deal with racism, you deal with the fact that you can only get milk (and other luxuries) once or twice a week, it's far from home, family, and comfort zones. And that's just skimming the top of irritations.

 

[snapcall]

OKKKKKKKKKK and ross doesn t over over fill their classes,,hahaha

😕 Did you bother to read either of my posts? That's my main gripe with the Caribbean schools.

If you can't get well above 3.0 and at least close to 1200 maybe you don't deserve a shot and need to adjust your dream.

There are many, MANY qualified, competent, intelligent, hard-working veterinarians who would strongly disagree with this statement. A significant portion of these are grads of US vet schools.

a 2.0 last I checked was passing so I would say a 3.0 or better is pretty solid in the real world. The GRE is also a joke, it only tests your ability to take a test, not whether or not you are smart. Vet schools only use GPA and the GRE as a means of selection solely because they get so many applicants......if there were more seats available then applicants.......a passing grade is all it would take to get in.

Not quite. As others have pointed out, some of the material learned in undergrad continues to be relevant throughout the rest of one's veterinary career. If someone can't hack it academically in undergrad, there's no way they're going to do well in vet school. The people with low GPA's who are academically competent and DO get into (and thrive in) vet school usually have some mitigating factor:

-major trauma causing one semester or year of very poor grades (two examples: death of someone close to the student, being in a severe car accident past the withdrawal deadline and not being able to get it sorted out with the administration in time)
-bad freshman year with big upward trend and great grades in upper-level science courses
-major in a subject clearly a cut above (difficulty-wise) what most other undergrads are studying. engineering comes to mind.

If someone has C's across the board/2.0, it is (imo of course) highly unlikely that they would be able to pass their first year of vet school. No school in the US would even let them try, but Ross (or another caribbean school) would. And once in a while, the student would succeed. Much more often, the student would not, and either repeat their first year or be done.

Hopeful07 and sumstorm: great posts 👍

 

[peachy3214]

I think my comment was taken too literally........ obviously anyone making only a 2.0 is going to struggle, my point i was trying to make(some what dramatically) is that the competition exists with the GPA standards to damn near perfect because of the large number of applicants and small number of seats available. To say only those with "well above a 3.0" are deserving....is a bit harsh considering there are many people with 3.1-3.4 that get into vet school and make great vets.

 

[snapcall]

Point taken. 🙂

 

[peachy3214]

Point taken. 🙂

haha I think i need to tone down my flair for the dramatic as it does not translate well over the internet.

 

[168135]

I think my comment was taken too literally........ obviously anyone making only a 2.0 is going to struggle, my point i was trying to make(some what dramatically) is that the competition exists with the GPA standards to damn near perfect because of the large number of applicants and small number of seats available. To say only those with "well above a 3.0" are deserving....is a bit harsh considering there are many people with 3.1-3.4 that get into vet school and make great vets.

My current vet was advised not to even bother applying because her grades were so bad. She told me she had a 60-somethin in calculus. She got in on her first try and now has her own clinic after graduating in 2005!

My mom failed her first exam in nursing school and was allowed to retake it. She barely passed but stayed in the program. She came out of nursing school with a 75 average. She's now one of the most respected nurses at her place of employment by her coworkers, residents and their family. She's also been made head of the palliative care committee.

One of the reasons why my GPA is lower is because of the stupid gen chem requirements for my degree. I did bad in chem in high school and didn't have much support in high school or in university. I think I still deserve a shot at vet school.

Undergrad courses aren't taught the same everywhere... maybe if I went to another school and took it with Dr. Easy, I might have pulled an A in it.

 

[jpeterman13]

If someone has C's across the board/2.0, it is (imo of course) highly unlikely that they would be able to pass their first year of vet school. No school in the US would even let them try, but Ross (or another caribbean school) would. And once in a while, the student would succeed. Much more often, the student would not, and either repeat their first year or be done.

I HIGHLY doubt that a vet school (US/caribbean) would accept someone who has a straight 2.0's (UNLESS they made up for it in other departments). People DO get rejected from caribbean schools because of their grades...the reason that you don't hear about it (probably) is that they don't want to say. Esp. since they (Ross and SGU) are on the brink of AVMA accreditation, they want to do everything that they can to keep their attrition rate as low as possible. Keep in mind that at Ross, you fail one class, you retake the whole semester (@ 1/2 the cost). You fail again, you're done. In the long run, letting someone in who will more than likely fail (simply for $) would not look good! My friend who goes to medical school in WV says that she has 18 students retaking their first year (after they were given the opportunity to retake some courses over the summer!!!). So this problem with retaking courses isn't something that is characteristic of only the caribbean schools.

 

[sumstorm]

Esp. since they (Ross and SGU) are on the brink of AVMA accreditation, they want to do everything that they can to keep their attrition rate as low as possible.

My friend who goes to school in WV says that she has 21 students retaking their first year (after they were given the opportunity to retake some courses over the summer!!!). So this problem with retaking courses isn't something that is characteristic of only the caribbean schools.

Ross has been 'on the brink' for a decent amount of time. I don't see them being accredited any time soon, but hopefully for the students there I am wrong about that.

As for 21 students retaking their first year due to failing the first year.... if that is true, it is unheard of, that would mean close to 1/4 of the class doesn't continue on. I didn't even know West Virginia had a vet school. I must be really confused!

 

[jpeterman13]

Ross has been 'on the brink' for a decent amount of time. I don't see them being accredited any time soon, but hopefully for the students there I am wrong about that.

As for 21 students retaking their first year due to failing the first year.... if that is true, it is unheard of, that would mean close to 1/4 of the class doesn't continue on. I didn't even know West Virginia had a vet school. I must be really confused!

That's true. But it's still something that they are trying for. So I'd think that it would still come into consideration (the fact that they want accreditation) while evaluating an applicant with "2.0s across the board". According to the post that I responded to, this person would be accepted to a caribbean school...and I don't think that they would. But I do hope that accreditation in is their near future 🙂.

I just changed my previous post (*I just went back and read her email), it was 21 students that didn't pass the first portion of their first year. and there are 18 students retaking their first year. Sorry about that! and she's in medical school, not vet school. I thought I wrote that, apologies for being unclear.

 

[luplodw]

I just got back from St. Kitts for vacation and it was so beautiful. I would be very hesitant of going to Ross though because the island seemed very dangerous. It was on the end of the island that I wouldn't want to be on. Butttt that doesn't mean it's not a great school!

 

[August24]

Tell me if there numbers make sense-
I got these from Jeane Dipretoro, an admissions counselor from NJ for Ross when she came to our class

This is about the veterinary program:

3000 applications/year to ross
Ross accepts 75% of those that apply; 75% of those accepted end up attending Ross

This means that 1688 students per year go to Ross (with 3 start dates)

Now this information is from their admissions booklet, which I somehow recieved three of, but I digress....

Ross was founded in 1982 and currently has 2,300+ graduates. So, like, 2 years worth of graduates over 28 years??? Something fishy here...

back to info from Ms. Dipretoro:
90% of Ross students do get their first choice for clinical rotations, as long as you have the required GPA (Penn also requires an interview). so, basically, vet schools in the states weed out those with less chance of suceeding before vet school, and Ross weeds them out through vet school/after. Example: Average US vet school GRE=1350, Ross average =1110.

She works for Ross, and her son is currently in vet school there. But she said that if you get into a vet school in the US, go there. It will be less hassle. but if you don't get in, think about Ross. hmmmm

I heard from another speaker that you go to the Caribbean to get a suntan, not an education. for me, I am a borderline US applicant during my first application cycle. If I don't get in, I will apply next round to US schools and also Caribbean ones. If I don't get into any schools in the states/canada, I would consider actually going to a Carribbean school. But, I feel that my whole professional life thereafter I will be battling prejudice based on my education.

 

[lunajett]

3000 applications/year to ross
Ross accepts 75% of those that apply; 75% of those accepted end up attending Ross

This means that 1688 students per year go to Ross (with 3 start dates)

Now this information is from their admissions booklet, which I somehow recieved three of, but I digress....

Ross was founded in 1982 and currently has 2,300+ graduates. So, like, 2 years worth of graduates over 28 years??? Something fishy here...

Not quite. You can't extrapolate backwards to 1982 based on current admission numbers. The vet I know who graduated Ross in the early years, probably like 15 years ago, said the first classes were tiny, like less than a dozen. His was one of the first "big" classes, I think maybe around 20, and he said their class was so huge they overwhelmed the place. So even though now Ross might accept a lot of students, they did start very small. Not to say there is not something fishy, but it's tough to calculate numbers without knowing actual class sizes each year.

She works for Ross, and her son is currently in vet school there. But she said that if you get into a vet school in the US, go there. It will be less hassle. but if you don't get in, think about Ross. hmmmm

This is pretty much what she told us at the info session I went to as well. They were pretty straightforward - state schools are great and if you get in, it will be easier/less hassle, maybe a little cheaper, so by all means go. But if you can't get in stateside, Ross has a lot of advantages and can make you into a great vet, too. And the alumni I've talked to have had no regrets about going - some have said they're even glad they didn't get in the states because their island experience made them better vets.

I heard from another speaker that you go to the Caribbean to get a suntan, not an education. for me, I am a borderline US applicant during my first application cycle. If I don't get in, I will apply next round to US schools and also Caribbean ones. If I don't get into any schools in the states/canada, I would consider actually going to a Carribbean school. But, I feel that my whole professional life thereafter I will be battling prejudice based on my education

I'm kinda in the same boat, except I'm on my second try now. If come March/April, I haven't been accepted anywhere, I will probably do a Ross app for the fall. But I don't think you really have to worry about the potential "prejudice." I used to worry about that too, but the more I've worked in the field, I just haven't seen it. The Ross vets I've worked with have been great, I haven't detected any bias from their peers, and several of the very reputable speciality hospitals in my area (San Diego), including the one I work at, have had no problem hiring Ross grads. "Carribbean schools" have been the butt of jokes for years, but from the reality I see in the field, Ross vets are taken just as seriously and get just as much respect as any other vets.

 

[snapcall]

That's true. But it's still something that they are trying for. So I'd think that it would still come into consideration (the fact that they want accreditation) while evaluating an applicant with "2.0s across the board". According to the post that I responded to, this person would be accepted to a caribbean school...and I don't think that they would. But I do hope that accreditation in is their near future 🙂.

I just changed my previous post (*I just went back and read her email), it was 21 students that didn't pass the first portion of their first year. and there are 18 students retaking their first year. Sorry about that! and she's in medical school, not vet school. I thought I wrote that, apologies for being unclear.

That's not exactly what I meant by that. The fact is that someone with those numbers would have NO chance at a US school, but some chance at a caribbean one. By no means do I believe at everyone who applies to Ross gets in.

 

[jpeterman13]

Tell me if there numbers make sense-
I got these from Jeane Dipretoro, an admissions counselor from NJ for Ross when she came to our class

This is about the veterinary program:

3000 applications/year to ross
Ross accepts 75% of those that apply; 75% of those accepted end up attending Ross

This means that 1688 students per year go to Ross (with 3 start dates)

Now this information is from their admissions booklet, which I somehow recieved three of, but I digress....

Ross was founded in 1982 and currently has 2,300+ graduates. So, like, 2 years worth of graduates over 28 years??? Something fishy here...

back to info from Ms. Dipretoro:
90% of Ross students do get their first choice for clinical rotations, as long as you have the required GPA (Penn also requires an interview). so, basically, vet schools in the states weed out those with less chance of suceeding before vet school, and Ross weeds them out through vet school/after. Example: Average US vet school GRE=1350, Ross average =1110.

She works for Ross, and her son is currently in vet school there. But she said that if you get into a vet school in the US, go there. It will be less hassle. but if you don't get in, think about Ross. hmmmm

I heard from another speaker that you go to the Caribbean to get a suntan, not an education. for me, I am a borderline US applicant during my first application cycle. If I don't get in, I will apply next round to US schools and also Caribbean ones. If I don't get into any schools in the states/canada, I would consider actually going to a Carribbean school. But, I feel that my whole professional life thereafter I will be battling prejudice based on my education.

No, those numbers don't quite make sense to me. if 1688 students really did attend Ross every year (just the veterinary school) then that would have ~562 students distributed equally among the 3 semesters. To my knowledge, the class sizes rarely go above 150. If you are right, then it looks like I can look forward to having 561 classmates (more than I did in HS) Are you sure that these numbers don't represent BOTH the vet and med schools? Also, 1350 seems like an awfully high GRE mean. Purdue and Michigan State have averages of 1108 (OOS) and 1176 respectively...I might be wrong on that one though, I just looked up those 2 for some reason. "I heard from another speaker that you go to the Caribbean to get a suntan, not an education" that is an incredibly IGNORANT statement for that speaker to make.
Being discriminated against is always a concern for everyone...but it's not like "since you go to a US vet school, we are going to teach you the 'real' veterinary curriculum". You learn the same material, take the same tests (even an extra one that is rigorous), and are generally just as respected as US grads. If someone wants to talk crap about my degree because it's not from the US, I'll tell them to take a long walk off a short pier. 😀😀

ETA:

That's not exactly what I meant by that. The fact is that someone with those numbers would have NO chance at a US school, but some chance at a caribbean one. By no means do I believe at everyone who applies to Ross gets in.

Gotcha 🙂, and I do agree that someone with those numbers would have a better chance at a caribbean school than at a US school (where they would, as you said, have NO chance)

 

[August24]

These are, from the admissions person, just the vet numbers. Honestly, I asked her some questions that lead to that information and it seemed like she did not have definitive answers but was going from memory. The extensive FAQ on the ross website isn't helpful for clarifying these numbers, either.

I, personally, don't see any huge issues with the Carib. schools minus the stigma. I feel most of the day to day stuff I need to learn/how to apply it I will learn in clinical rotations anyway. I haven't worked with/don't know any vets from the caribbean, so I can't attest firsthand to their strength. But two of my vet mentors have felt that, in their experience, the Ross vets were unprepaired. Both acknowledged that they were making this judgement based on either 1 young vet or a few graduates, and that you can't judge a whole school by just a few people. But, I don't want to feel like I'm proving myself for the rest of my life to people that have that judgement.

I don't think that indicators such as GPA/GRE predict whether you will become a good vet, I think they predict only if you will be sucessful in the rigorous academic environment of vet school, not necessarily in a clinical/research/other veterinary appointment. so, I think, even if the carib. schools have lower stats and higher acceptance rates, they can produce good vets.

Caribbean schools: Are they expensive? Yes. Are they far from home? Yes. so are most of the US schools for me as well. Are they a buisness? yes. will they award me a DVM after lots of hard work? yes. just like all the rest of them.

 

[BlacKAT33]

Also, 1350 seems like an awfully high GRE mean. Purdue and Michigan State have averages of 1108 (OOS) and 1176 respectively...I might be wrong on that one though, I just looked up those 2 for some reason.

1350 is DEF NOT the avg for US vet schools. I dont have my stats with me now, but I compiled a list of almost every schools GRE avg thru their websites and my AAVMC book and most of them were between 1170-1270. I'm pretty sure i only had 2-3 schools with avg GREs in the 1300s

edit:agree with jpeterman

 

[sumstorm]

From Ross's website via FAQs:

How many people apply to Ross each year?
The School of Veterinary Medicine receives approximately 600 to 700 applications annually

What is the average GPA of accepted students?
The average GPA of accepted students is 3.25.

How many students are admitted to each class?
Ross University typically enrolls approximately 80, up to a maximum of 105, students in each incoming class

What is the average GRE score of accepted students?
While the average GRE score of accepted students is 1150, it is important to remember that this is just an average. Please note that the Admissions Committee will take all aspects of your application into consideration.

What is the attrition rate?

The past total attrition rate for Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine has been 15% to 17% percent, depending on the year. Total attrition is almost evenly split between academic attrition, personal reasons, and due to transfers to U.S. vet schools. Past academic attrition is roughly 7%.
Recent semester by semester attrition rates have been dropping. Updated total attrition rates will be published by complete year.

What makes Ross University better than other veterinary schools?​

Ross University is well established--having been in existence for over 25 years--and has strong resources to continue sustained growth and expansion. The technologically-advanced campus in St. Kitts features an academic clinical building with surgery suites, medical teaching clinic, techniques laboratory, multi-disciplinary laboratory, classrooms, administrative and faculty offices, small teaching hospital, pastures, facilities for care of the animals, a library, and a computer learning resource center that includes the latest in computer-assisted learning programs. The campus is 100% wireless. Our educational philosophy focuses on hands-on learning; you are immediately applying lecture material to animal care throughout our curriculum.
Ross is recognized and accredited by more organizations than many other international schools. We also have a larger affiliate program than most international schools, thus opening the door to more opportunities when students return to the U.S. And, our curriculum allows for a shorter time outside the U.S. Because of our year-round schedule of tri-semesters, students typically graduate in three years and four months, prepared to immediately enter practice.
Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine has awarded D.V.M. degrees to more than 2,000 graduates, forming an alumni network and a reputation for excellence that stretches coast to coast through all 50 states and into Canada.
Ross University students are eligible for Title IV financial aid, which differentiates Ross from all other Caribbean schools of veterinary medicine.

What is the make-up of the student body?
The School of Veterinary Medicine's student body is multi-ethnic, multi-national and dynamic. Our student body is approximately 74% female and 26% male. About 96% of our students are United States citizens or residents and 2% are Canadian citizens or residents, with the remaining percentage hailing from other nations. Under-represented minorities comprise about 10-15% of our student body.

 

[sumstorm]

1350 is DEF NOT the avg for US vet schools. I dont have my stats with me now, but I compiled a list of almost every schools GRE avg thru their websites and my AAVMC book and most of them were between 1170-1270. I'm pretty sure i only had 2-3 schools with avg GREs in the 1300s

edit:agree with jpeterman

The mean GPA for american schools incoming FY class in 2008 was 3.57 according to AAVMC.

I haven't found a GRE average. Cornells is 1320, I think ours was mid to high 1100's. don't now others.

 

[168135]

From Ross's website via FAQs:

How many people apply to Ross each year?
The School of Veterinary Medicine receives approximately 600 to 700 applications annually.

How many of those are accepted but decide not to come? I've noticed that the majority of the people who are accepted on this forum decide not to attend.

 

[Oceangirl515]

It's absurd that no US vet schools have been built in recent history while medical schools seem to be popping up everywhere. With the number of applicants competing for limited spots in US schools, I fell like I have to apply to Ross along with my stateside choices. I am naturally a positive person (and have good grades and test scores!) but looking over admissions data sure does make me feel discouraged...

 

[August24]

This is something I've been meaning to research one of these days! Like, seriously, I guarantee that it would be cheaper to actually BUILD a vet school in my hometown because A. you don't need to ship building supplies across water and B. because land in my rural town is probably significantly cheaper than oceanfront resorts. And, though the population of my town is very low and case load would probably correspond, there probably isn't much more of an issue than than on a small island...I'm not sure, it probably has to do with regulatory hurtles, but, seriously, if med schools can do it.... And then I could have residency!!

 

[david594]

It's absurd that no US vet schools have been built in recent history while medical schools seem to be popping up everywhere. With the number of applicants competing for limited spots in US schools, I fell like I have to apply to Ross along with my stateside choices. I am naturally a positive person (and have good grades and test scores!) but looking over admissions data sure does make me feel discouraged...

You mean like within the last 7 years?

Western only graduated their first class in 2007 so maybe you want to do a bit more research on your recent history.

 

[david594]

This is something I've been meaning to research one of these days! Like, seriously, I guarantee that it would be cheaper to actually BUILD a vet school in my hometown because A. you don't need to ship building supplies across water and B. because land in my rural town is probably significantly cheaper than oceanfront resorts.

Their is a very fine line between Caribbean ocean front resorts and the rest of the third world country lifestyle that exists on the islands. They build schools there because its cheap, and there are no regulatory bodies they have to comply with.

 

[Electrophile]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how much of a personal financial suicide it is to get 250K in debt. Our surgery resident (who I am assuming will go on to make pretty good money) went out of state at CSU and even he said it was not worth it for the debt he got in. Let alone debt of that magnitude, especially if you're just going into private practice.

 

[david594]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how much of a personal financial suicide it is to get 250K in debt. Our surgery resident (who I am assuming will go on to make pretty good money) went out of state at CSU and even he said it was not worth it for the debt he got in. Let alone debt of that magnitude, especially if you're just going into private practice.

Worse is your talking about $250k in private (non-federal) loan debt. Which means you will never qualify for programs like income based repayment +/- public service loan forgiveness.

 

[BrumleyVet]

I have heard all of these points before, but what I still can't seem to find answers for was the true crime rate for the "foreign" students. I have heard from several sources that it is dangerous to venture into the local areas alone and especially after dark.

Anyone heard anything from students? I keep getting "fluff" answers by the recruiters who have never even set foot on the island.

 

[twelvetigers]

Brumleyvet, you can PM zpinkpanther and I'll see that she logs on and responds. She was there for at least a year. 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

I have heard all of these points before, but what I still can't seem to find answers for was the true crime rate for the "foreign" students. I have heard from several sources that it is dangerous to venture into the local areas alone and especially after dark.

Anyone heard anything from students? I keep getting "fluff" answers by the recruiters who have never even set foot on the island.

the consulate should be able to answer that question. One caveat; true crime rates are hard to nail down. For example, sexual assault is a crime in the US, but some people won't report it for various reasons, and some locales may not be very 'accepting' of reports....and some reports may be false. So nailing down the number is difficult. In foreign countries, the impediments may be higher, so accurate numbers may be more difficult. Ripping off farangs (foreigners) in Thailand is considered a good way of making money, completly acceptable. It is a 'buyer beware' culture, where as the same acts are often illegal here. Or, if you are sexually assualted in Thailand, it isn't talked about, and police aren't willng to take reports because culturally they wont discuss these kinds of things, so even if you try to report, it is nearly impossible to do so. I am not saying this is the case in this situation, but that it is something to be aware of; numbers may be very skewed.

One example of this that I have observed in some places is a thug with very threatening mannerisms asks for money. If it is taken up as an issue, the money was a gift. You didn't have to give it...you chose to. However, no mention of the potential consequences of refusing.

 

[radio2020]

I belive that is an unfair assessment of Thailand as well as an indication that other cultures may accept sexual attacks. I know from being in Thailand that sex or anything sexual is far from being removed as taboo in their culture. For god sakes they provide transexual bathrooms in their high schools. T additionally, no where inthat country is it acceptable to steal from tourists in fact there are extremely harsh punishments to those that attack foreigners than if they attacked one of their own citizens. That country depends on tourism and takes great pride in keeping those who visit safe. When you visit any foreign country you need to be aware of your srroundings and should never wander as if you are a local. Because you are and yes you do have a giant target on your head. I think it is important to keep in mind the desperation others may have who live in the places we may visit, like st kitts, rather than suggesting they are simply out to take our 20's as gifts as is encoraged by their government. BTW I typed this on my phone and I can't edit it. So sorry for the sloppy post.