Roth IRA question

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KublaiKhan

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I will be graduating from med school in a few months and I plan to start contributing to a Roth IRA during my next few years in training. I plan to invest at least some of the money in my roth IRA in to mutual funds. From looking at several of the Vanguard mutual funds I have noticed that they require monthly contributions of at least $100. My question is, once we finish residency and presumably our incomes increase above the level allowing further contributions to a roth IRA what happens to this account? Do I have to sell what I own in these mutual funds since I can no longer contribute the $100 monthly? Or do I convert the account in to a traditional IRA? Also, if I do convert it to a traditional IRA how do you keep track of the amount which you have already paid taxes on to avoid being taxed on that amount a 2nd time during retirement?

Thanks in advance for your responses!

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you are over thinking it. Once you don't qualify for a roth IRA anymore, the account sits there. It just doesn't disappear or need to be converted. You just can't put money into it anymore. It will keep growing till the day you retire....at which point it is tax free. Why would you ever want to switch a Roth into a regular IRA? It's like financial suicide, if it is even allowed....
 
Why would you ever want to switch a Roth into a regular IRA? It's like financial suicide, if it is even allowed....

If you made the unfortunate decision to convert right before your investment tanked so you're paying taxes on money that was never realized and no longer there. Otherwise, never. Although for my own stupid reasons I dislike IRAs in general.
 
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It's probably only a required $100/month until you meet the actual minimum amount to be in that fund. Many of the funds require a $3000 minimum, so you'd need to do $100/month until you met that. Some funds are $1000.

Meh, on a resident's income, even a lowly PGY1, you can skip all that nonsense. Set aside a little from each paycheck into your checking/savings until you reach a lump sum of $1000 and open up a Target Date fund. From there, you can contribute whatever you want, whenever you want. The rest of the entry-level investor class Vanguard funds have a $3000 minimum.

PS. Not possible to convert from Roth to traditional. [Edit: Not counting re-characterizing, but that's a special case.] To answer your other questions, once your income disqualifies you from contributing to a Roth, the account just sits there growing (and falling) with the market. You can always move the money around internally and rebalance it to meet your asset allocation, and you can do backdoor Roth conversions from pre-tax vehicles like traditional IRA, etc. Also, imho, try to max out the $5000 per year into your Roth, even on a resident's salary, without falling into the mentality that you'll be making 6 figures soon. Sometimes time is more powerful than money, and it helps build good habits.
 
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I will be graduating from med school in a few months and I plan to start contributing to a Roth IRA during my next few years in training. I plan to invest at least some of the money in my roth IRA in to mutual funds. From looking at several of the Vanguard mutual funds I have noticed that they require monthly contributions of at least $100. My question is, once we finish residency and presumably our incomes increase above the level allowing further contributions to a roth IRA what happens to this account? Do I have to sell what I own in these mutual funds since I can no longer contribute the $100 monthly? Or do I convert the account in to a traditional IRA? Also, if I do convert it to a traditional IRA how do you keep track of the amount which you have already paid taxes on to avoid being taxed on that amount a 2nd time during retirement?

Thanks in advance for your responses!

Great to see you are planning to start saving for retirement while in residency.

I was in the same situation, little money to invest and most funds requiring high initial investments.
I went with Vanguard Target Retirement 2025; its now $1000 to start and there is no minimum monthly investment cost once you buy it. Vanguard also has very low 0.18 expense ratio.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/TargetRetirementList#targetAnchor

I'm going with a index investing strategy and currently adhering to 70/30 (70% stocks and 30% bonds) asset allocation. The Vanguard 2025 fund gives you about 72/28 asset allocation. All their other funds (e.g. 2050 are way too aggressive for me with 90/10 (90% stocks))



If you really want to learn more about investing go here:
Boggle Heads:http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Category:Getting_started
Boggle Heads forum: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php
White Coat Investor:http://whitecoatinvestor.com/
blog by an ED doc with financial advice geared to residents/attendings
 
Sorry, but what is the point of a Roth IRA? Just to be able to withdraw tax-free in your retirement period?

Other than that, is there any other benefit vs. just investing that same money in mutual funds and holding until retirement?

Yes, you pay the taxes now and then it grows tax free. Since you will be in the lowest tax bracket you ever will be in during residency, it makes sense to max it out up to $5k every year.

It's especially beneficial for that first "year" of residency. The government works on a yearly calendar rather than the academic calendar, so that first year's taxes will be only half of your salary. Unless you have some nice outside income, that should fall below the $35,500 threshold for the 15% tax bracket. If you put in the $5k that year, it will only be taxed at 15% of the $5k and will earn money tax free forever. With all retirement accounts you can put in the contributions up to tax day so you have until April to come up with $5k for that account. It's definitely a good option.
 
Lots of good questions in the thread. I suppose there is no such thing as a stupid question, but seeing ?s like these reaffirms my desire to do a blog to help docs out.

1) What happens to the account?

As mentioned above, it just sits there. Mine that just sat there after residency is now over 6 figures. But it has also grown for a couple of reasons:

First, you can always do Roth conversions later and add to the stash.

Second, you might have a job where you don't make more than the Roth IRA contribution limit (currently $169K adjusted gross income for married) and can still do Roth IRA contributions. Lots of docs make less than that. Probably half.

Third, you can do backdoor Roth IRAs each year, at least until the IRS closes the loophole. http://whitecoatinvestor.com/retirement-accounts/backdoor-roth-ira/

2) Do you have to sell the mutual funds?

No. Since you don't have to close the account, you can continue to hold the same funds as when you were contributing.

3) Do you convert it to a traditional IRA?

There are circumstances where you may want to "recharacterize" a Roth IRA back to a traditional IRA. But you can only do that for the most recent contribution. You can't convert it back ten years from now. What's the IRS going to do, give you the taxes you paid 10 years ago back? Mostly, people only recharacterize if they made an illegal contribution accidentally (usually because they made more that year than they planned), if their investment within the account that year tanked, and for some other unusual reason.

4) On a recharacterization, who keeps track of the basis?

The custodian of the IRA keeps track of it and reports it to you and the IRS.

Now, a couple other points you don't mention.

First, you seem to be under the misunderstanding that you MUST commit to putting $100 a month into the account at Vanguard. As long as you open the account with $1000, you don't have to do that. Keep in mind, you really need to focus right now on your savings rate. $100 a month is only $1200 a year. You can put $5K into this account (plus another $5K for your spouse.) You may also have a 401K or 403B. You need to be thinking not "What's the minimum I can put into this thing each month" but rather "What's the maximum?" $333 a month will get you to the $5K contribution limit. That's not that hard on a resident salary. It should be less than 10% of your income. Get used to saving now and it'll be easy to carry the habit into your "attending-hood." http://whitecoatinvestor.com/investing/the-savings-rate/

Second, thanks for the shout-out Igor.

Third, Dumb- there are several points. First, you don't pay taxes as the money grows. This helps money to grow at a higher rate. Second, you don't pay taxes when you pull the money out in 30 or 40 years. Third, you don't eat Alpo in retirement. The point is it is a retirement savings vehicle. Most docs will never have a pension. The only money they'll have to live on in retirement will come from their own savings.

Fourth, Shantster- many retirement plans use the end of the calendar year, not April 15th. You have to make your 401K contributions by Dec 31, for example. But for IRAs, you're correct, it's April 15th.

Last, for all the residents out there, be sure you look at the Retirement Savings Credit when you file your taxes. You can get up to $1000 just for saving your own money. More likely you'll only get $100, but it's better than a kick in the teeth.

Good luck investing. Just the fact that you're asking these questions puts you way ahead of the pack.
 
First, you seem to be under the misunderstanding that you MUST commit to putting $100 a month into the account at Vanguard. As long as you open the account with $1000, you don't have to do that. Keep in mind, you really need to focus right now on your savings rate. $100 a month is only $1200 a year. You can put $5K into this account (plus another $5K for your spouse.) You may also have a 401K or 403B. You need to be thinking not "What's the minimum I can put into this thing each month" but rather "What's the maximum?" $333 a month will get you to the $5K contribution limit. That's not that hard on a resident salary. It should be less than 10% of your income. Get used to saving now and it'll be easy to carry the habit into your "attending-hood." http://whitecoatinvestor.com/investing/the-savings-rate/

Yes, I absolutely was misunderstanding this when I was looking at funds through Vanguard. Their table of minimums had a column for additional investments that said $100. I see now that it just meant that any additional contribution you make has to be at least $100, not that you have to after your initial $1000 investment for their target date funds.

Thanks for your response and the great advice.
 
Had to look up the Alpo comment, haha. :p Regarding pension, can't I just work in a VA hospital toward the tail end of my career and get pension?

How long do you suppose you have to work at the VA to get a pension? Most pension plans require a minimum number of years (sometimes 20+) and the fewer you work, the smaller the pension. It's not like you work 2 years then get this huge pension.
 
How does one go about choosing which Roth IRA to use?

Zombies...

Companies? Choose Vanguard if you want to save on fees. Also options are TIAA, Fidelity, and many others. In terms of what funds to put in it best are somewhat higher risk investments with dividends though overall should be balanced depending on your risk tolerance. You don't have to worry about the tax on interest as it's paid when you contribute to the plan.
 
I will be graduating from med school in a few months and I plan to start contributing to a Roth IRA during my next few years in training. I plan to invest at least some of the money in my roth IRA in to mutual funds. From looking at several of the Vanguard mutual funds I have noticed that they require monthly contributions of at least $100. My question is, once we finish residency and presumably our incomes increase above the level allowing further contributions to a roth IRA what happens to this account? Do I have to sell what I own in these mutual funds since I can no longer contribute the $100 monthly? Or do I convert the account in to a traditional IRA? Also, if I do convert it to a traditional IRA how do you keep track of the amount which you have already paid taxes on to avoid being taxed on that amount a 2nd time during retirement?

Thanks in advance for your responses!


Coming from some who was in your shoes and now a practicing Attending. You can still keep the same ROTH IRA account even when your income jump after residency. Keep maxing it out! Your future self will thank you later.

Later on when you are an Attending, you can also still contribute to your ROTH IRA account via the BACKDOOR ROTH IRA method with no income limit. Read up on BACKDOOR ROTH IRA.

VERY IMPORTANT ADVICE TO YOU STUDENT AND RESIDENTS IF YOU WANT TO DO BACKDOOR ROTH LATER AS AN ATTENDING:
  • DO NOT ROLL OVER YOUR 401K INTO AN IRA WHEN YOU CHANGE JOBS. KEEP THE MONEY IN THE SAME 401K ACCOUNT AT YOUR OLD WORK.
  • IF YOU DO ROLL OVER YOUR 401K INTO AN IRA, YOU WILL HAVE TO CONVERT TO A ROTH BEFORE DOING A BACKDOOR. BEST TIME TO DO THIS IS WHEN YOUR INCOME TAX BRACKET IS LOW RIGHT BEFORE ATTENDING YEARS. BUT BE PREPARE TO PAY TAXES ON THE CONVERSION.
  • CAN ALSO ROLL OVER YOUR PRETAXED IRA TO YOUR NEW 401K (IF 401K COMPANY ALLOWS IT)
This will save you a lot of headaches later. To gain full benefits from the backdoor roth, you have to get rid off all your pre-tax IRAs. (pro-rata calculation).

When choosing companies go with VANGUARD. ROTH IRAs are great for REITS AND HIGH DIVIDEND FUNDS. Can also default to Vanguard Total Stock Market Fund. You guys are still young and can ride the future recessions waves.
 
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Coming from some who was in your shoes and now a practicing Attending. You can still keep the same ROTH IRA account even when your income jump after residency. Keep maxing it out! Your future self will thank you later.

Later on when you are an Attending, you can also still contribute to your ROTH IRA account via the BACKDOOR ROTH IRA method with no income limit. Read up on BACKDOOR ROTH IRA.

VERY IMPORTANT ADVICE TO YOU STUDENT AND RESIDENTS IF YOU WANT TO DO BACKDOOR ROTH LATER AS AN ATTENDING:
  • DO NOT ROLL OVER YOUR 401K INTO AN IRA WHEN YOU CHANGE JOBS. KEEP THE MONEY IN THE SAME 401K ACCOUNT AT YOUR OLD WORK.
  • IF YOU DO ROLL OVER YOUR 401K INTO AN IRA, YOU WILL HAVE TO CONVERT TO A ROTH BEFORE DOING A BACKDOOR. BEST TIME TO DO THIS IS WHEN YOUR INCOME TAX BRACKET IS LOW RIGHT BEFORE ATTENDING YEARS. BUT BE PREPARE TO PAY TAXES ON THE CONVERSION.
This will save you a lot of headaches later. To gain full benefits from the backdoor roth, you have to get rid off all your pre-tax IRAs. (pro-rata calculation).

When choosing companies go with VANGUARD. ROTH IRAs are great for REITS AND HIGH DIVIDEND FUNDS. Can also default to Vanguard Total Stock Market Fund. You guys are still young and can ride the future recessions waves.

You left out rolling your tIRA into your new job 401k (assuming it's allowed on that plan).
 
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You left out rolling your tIRA into your new job 401k (assuming it's allowed on that plan).

Thank you for adding, ThoracicGuy. I forgot to mention that some 401K companies allowed IRA roll over. (Pre-Taxed IRA ---> 401K). You will have to call them first.

I actually had to do this before starting my backdoor ROTH IRA. Luckily my 401K accept IRA rollovers. It's just an extra step involving banking fee, time and paperwork.

By rolling over your Pre-taxed IRA to the 401K, you are delaying paying taxes vs the conversion which can be good or bad depending on your income/tax bracket status now vs retirement.

For me, if I was a medical student/ resident and I knew about the backdoor ROTH IRA ahead of time...I would find it much easier not to carry any Pre-Tax IRAs. I would keep my old 401K as is until I am enrolled in a new 401K at my new job. I would then just roll over my old 401K from my old job into my new one. Instead of rolling over old 401K to an IRA only to roll it over again to a new 401K.

Every time you do a rollover, there is often a small service fee + paperwork.
 
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Thank you for adding, ThoracicGuy. I forgot to mention that some 401K companies allowed IRA roll over. (Pre-Taxed IRA ---> 401K). You will have to call them first.

I actually had to do this before starting my backdoor ROTH IRA. Luckily my 401K accept IRA rollovers. It's just an extra step involving banking fee, time and paperwork.

By rolling over your Pre-taxed IRA to the 401K, you are delaying paying taxes vs the conversion which can be good or bad depending on your income/tax bracket status now vs retirement.

For me, if I was a medical student/ resident and I knew about the backdoor ROTH IRA ahead of time...I would find it much easier not to carry any Pre-Tax IRAs. I would keep my old 401K as is until I am enrolled in a new 401K at my new job. I would then just roll over my old 401K from my old job into my new one. Instead of rolling over old 401K to an IRA only to roll it over again to a new 401K.

Every time you do a rollover, there is often a small service fee + paperwork.

I had traditional IRA money in place before even getting to med school. I ended up moving that over to my solo 401k so I had access to the backdoor Roth. I had a 403b at my job end due to a buyout. They switched to a 401k, so I was able to move it all to my solo 401k as well. There were no fees or significant paperwork for either, both were very straightforward with the originating location sending it to the receiving location directly. If the old 401k/403b has better funds that are lower cost, it would be worth keeping it there. If the new place is cheaper, it'd probably be worth moving it. If you have a solo 401k, I'd say it'd be best to move those old funds there.
 
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I had traditional IRA money in place before even getting to med school. I ended up moving that over to my solo 401k so I had access to the backdoor Roth. I had a 403b at my job end due to a buyout. They switched to a 401k, so I was able to move it all to my solo 401k as well. There were no fees or significant paperwork for either, both were very straightforward with the originating location sending it to the receiving location directly. If the old 401k/403b has better funds that are lower cost, it would be worth keeping it there. If the new place is cheaper, it'd probably be worth moving it. If you have a solo 401k, I'd say it'd be best to move those old funds there.

The quality of the funds and company is wise advice.

Like banks, not all 401K company are of the same caliber.

I did not have a good experience with mine.
 
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