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Sackler Class of 2005?

Discussion in 'General International Discussion' started by NYgirl, May 28, 2001.

  1. NYgirl

    NYgirl Junior Member

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    Hello

    I was recently accepted into Sackler Medical School American/NY State program for the class of 2005.

    I was wondering if anyone else on this board will be attending in the fall?

    I sent in my deposit of 100 dollars, but am not 100 percent sure if I will attend. I applied to St. George's (Grenada) and am still waiting to hear from them.

    I think Sackler is the better med school because it is affiliated with NY state, meaning that Sackler is the ONLY "foreign" med school where you participate in the residency match program as a US med graduate.
    But Israel is much further than Grenada and I am not too sure about the whole safety issue there. And at Grenada you get to do your clinical years in US hospitals.

    If there is anyone who attends Sackler or will be attending Sackler and you have any info, please post. Also, if there are any students studying in Tel Aviv or Israel and know about the saftey there, please post as well.

    Thanks so much.
    I look forward to hearing from you,
    NYgirl
     
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  3. NYgirl - Congratulations on your acceptance. I am pretty sure that this is not true. If you attend a Foreign Medical School, you will NOT be considered an AMG (American Medical Graduate) when it comes to residencies. If this is what Sackler told you then you may have been mislead.
     
  4. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    Thank you ST - you are right.

    NYGirl - it matters not a whit whether you go to St. George's or Sackler as far as the PROCESS of applying for a US residency match. You are STILL an IMG, regardless of the "recognition" given Sackler by the State of NY - this does NOT translate into any benefit or different process in the match.

    However, Sackler does enjoy a better reputation than St. George's and for what that's worth, it *may* benefit you in the match. But do NOT attend Sackler because you think you will somehow be given advantages or some special priviledge (by the state of NY or elsewhere) in the match; you will not. All IMGs apply in the same manner, via ECFMG.

    If Sackler has implied otherwise, they ARE misleading you. I advise you to check with the ECFMG (http://www.ecfmg.org) in Philly as well as with the State Medical Board of NY. I am SURE that they will tell you that a grad of Sackler is STILL an IMG, and requires ECFMG certification just like all other IMGs.

    Apologies if this seems like we're being negative - Sackler is an excellent school - just want to make sure you are aware that you will still be an IMG with no special priviledges.

    Best of luck...
     
  5. GennyD

    GennyD Junior Member

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    My best friend used to live in Isreal and he told me that the medical education that you will receive there is top notch. The down fall.... you need to learn Hebrew (is sort of difficult, as I am currently learning). As far as safety is concerned, the majority of events are occuring on the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Tel Aviv is pretty safe, since it is a new city and has "no religious" affilitations. The closest attack that I have heard of was about 20 miles north of Tel Aviv. Like I said most is near Jordan border, Lebanon border and West Bank.

    Sackler is an excellent school and enjoys a wonderful reputation. It is also in a beautiful location close to many other beautiful countries. I congrat you on your acceptance. I did not apply this year, but am planning on applying next year.

    Hope this helps
     
  6. NYgirl

    NYgirl Junior Member

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    I copied this from a book on foreign med schools.....

    The New York State Education Dept accredits Sackler as if it were a NY school (the national accreditation agency for medical schools in the US, Canada and Puerto Rico, the LCME, does not). In the days when ECFMG certification required a different set of exams than those used subsequently for lisensure, the State of NY did not require ECFMG certification for Sackler grads. The National Board of Medical Examiners, perhaps the biggest bastion of reservations about foreign medical schools, freely cooperates with Sackler, making available to their students the same practice exams that they routinely sell to US med schools, but never to foreign ones.

    This is directly from Sackler's web site and in a book about foreign med schools.....

    NATIONAL RESIDENCY MATCHING PROGRAM (NRMP)
    The NRMP is a private, computer-based operation which provides a mechanism for teaching hospitals/institutions and senior medical students to rank, respectively, their choices for post-graduate positions. Sackler students enter their Rank Order Lists directly onto a computer diskette. The diskette is forwarded to the Matching Program, data from the diskette is fed into the Match computer and the Match process begins. The results of the Match are forwarded to the New York office the following March and conveyed immediately to Israel via fax. Once an application is accepted by the NRMP, NO DISTINCTION is made by NRMP between graduates of U.S. schools and Sackler/Tel Aviv University. Early matches are required in the following subjects: Ophthalmology, Otolaryngology, Neurology and Neurosurgery. Information can be obtained in the Tel Aviv office.

    I hope this clears things up.
     
  7. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    Nygirl...

    Thank you for posting the above information. I assume the first paragraph is from Carlos Pestana's book. Unfortunately, it is outdated and incorrect on 2 points (I have found many errors in his book):

    1)"In the days when ECFMG certification required a different set of exams than those used subsequently for lisensure, the State of NY did not require ECFMG certification for Sackler grads. "

    Perhaps that was true when the exams for licensure and ECFMG certification differed. However, currently, the set of exams for ECFMG certification are the SAME set of exams (plus the TOELF and CSA) required for licensure. I may be wrong, but I believe ECFMG certification is now required for ALL graduates outside of the US and Canada. If you read Pestana's statement again I think you will see that he is saying that NY USED to not require ECFMG certification.

    2)The NBME currently "freely" cooperates with a number of foreign schools. The exams he is talking about are the NBME Shelf or subject exams and these are available at a number of foreing schools, including mine in Australia, as well as St. George's in the Caribbean. Sackler holds no special favours as far as that is concerned. As a point of interest, when the shelf exams were made available to my school in Australia, we were told (by the NBME) we were the ONLY school outside of the US and Canada to have them. This was found not to be true.

    Frankly, I have no idea what it means to you to have the school "accredited" by the state of NY when it is not LCME accredited. Non-LCME students are still generally required to have ECFMG certificates (this is a national regulation, not state by state)and participate in the match as an IMG. Perhaps the statement means that because the school is accredited by NY, that you are not "seen" as an IMG as much as someone who went to a Caribbean school. This is a benefit, but accreditation or not, Sackler and most first world country schools have that advantage anyway. I'm not a PD in the state of NY but did work with a Sackler FP resident in California; I know its a good school. Pestana is making the same point with his statements; I just don't know if accreditation helps you in the residency process anymore than going to any school which is well-regarded internationally. T

    he 2nd statement is more intruging because it seems to conflict with other information on the same TAU web site. Directly above the paragraph you have posted is a discussion of the exams needed for US licensure/certification. The exams are Step 1 and 2, the TOELF and CSA. Only the last 2 are required for IMGs and ECFMG certification. Since there is no notation on the web site (nor ECFMG's) that Sackler students are exempt from these requirements, I can only assume that they have posted them because you ARE required to complete them and get your ECFMG certificate. The remainder of the paragraph you sounds no different than that for any other NRMP applicant, except that disks for ROLs are no longer used (everything is done on-line). What is written, up to the last couple of lines, is simply the procedure for participating in the match - the procedure is the same for IMGs and AMGs alike.

    Thus, what they've written appears to be contradictory - I don't believe they are trying to be dishonest but rather have not presented the information as clearly as they should. Perhaps when they say that Sackler students are "treated NO DIFFERENTLY" in the match than US students, they are referring to issues of EOE - it is illegal for US residency programs or the match to discriminate against IMGs. Or perhaps Sackler serves as your Dean's office rather than ECFMG (as is the case for IMGs) and uploads your documentation (ie, Dean's letter, LORs, transcripts, etc.) to the ERAS NRMP server. This makes NO difference to you; it does not affect your application one way or the other, as long as the information gets on the server for the programs to download. Their description of the process is outdated - nearly all programs use a the computerized centralized application procedure.

    I looked at the NRMP website, my NRMP enrollment application and the handbook sent to all applicants for the 2001 match: no where could I find a notation that Sackler students are treated any different than students graduating from any other school outside of the US or Canada. When you enroll you either select US Seniors (students at LCME accreddited allopathic schools) or Independent Applicant (all IMGS, Canadian, DO students and graduated physicians)as your category. The ONLY difference between the process for US Seniors and IMGs is that IMGs are required to have completed all the exams for ECFMG certification to remain in the match past ROL day. Otherwise, applications, interviews, etc. are all handled for IMGs just as they are for AMGs.

    My final question is, if a special arrangement does exist which provides Sackler students with non-IMG status (ie, you do not have to have an ECFMG certificate), is this ONLY the case in New York? Understandably, you may want to stay in NY, but consider that it is limiting your options by only applying to programs in one area (especially for some of the more competitive matches).

    I'm not trying to discourage you from attending Sackler; far from it. But I know the Pestana information is outdated and as Stinky Tofu and I have noted, there appears to be no mention of any different status for Sackler students via the NRMP or ECFMG. I would venture that you ARE required to have an ECFMG certificate based on the information from TAU's own web site, so you should check it out with the NRMP, ECFMG and the State Medical Board of New York. Talking to a RECENT graduate of Sackler would also be wise.


    Please let us know what you find out as I would be very interested to know the final word from the "horse's mouth" (NRMP, ECFMG and State of NY as well as residency programs outside of the state of NY) rather than from Sackler. I want to be able to advise future users of the current status, so would appreciate it if you would let us know your findings.

    Best of luck! :)
     
  8. NYgirl

    NYgirl Junior Member

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    All your information is very interesting!
    You seem very informed.

    I agree with you that Sackler students must still take the CSA test and Toeffl test (plus steps 1, 2 and 3). So in this regard you are still an IMG.

    But I have heard from everyone associated with Sackler (faculty, students currently attending) that Sackler is the only foreign med school where you are seen as a AMG in the match because the school is seen as a NY state med school located in Israel. Everyone is so proud of this fact.

    One of my friends (a first year) goes there and this is what she emailed me about it.....

    "What gives Sackler an advantage in sending their students to good residency programs is that they participate in the US match. Other
    foreign medical schools are not participants in the match. This is a big selling point for
    Sackler, and that is why they get better residencies."

    But you make some good points as well. I don't know who is right. I will definitely check into this and post my findings.

    Thanks again!
     
  9. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    Hi NyGirl...

    I'm not sure what the Sackler student means when she/he says, "Other foreign medical schools are not participants in the match. " This is patently untrue. ANY student or graduate of a medical school listed in the WHO directly is eligible to participate in the match. The NRMP makes no distinction or comment on the schools that participate in the match. As far as they are concerned, Podunk U = World's Best Medical school.

    The NRMP only categorizes applicants on 1 factor: either you are a senior student at an LCME accredited allopathic scholl or you are not. Those in the latter category (all IMGs, DOs, Candian students and graduated physicians) must apply as Independent Applicants. The process after being categorized is exactly the same except that IMGS must have all exams toward their ECFMG certificate completed by ROL date.

    There is no "US Match" vs another match for non-US (or non-Sackler) students. We all participate together: US Seniors and Independent applicants.

    I do agree with the Sackler student that they do get good residencies and that it is an excellent school (and should you have the choice between it and St. George's I would definitely go with Sackler). However, I would venture that the ability to get a good residency (all else being equal) is because Sackler has a good repuation internationally as well as in the US, not because they have some special priviledges in the match.

    At any rate, as I said earlier it *is* possible that Stinky Tofu and I are incorrect. I spent a number of years before going to Australia investigating international medical education so do pride myself on being fairly knowledgeable. I am also aware of the lengths that schools (and students) will go to appeal to nervous potential students. Obviously in some cases this amounts to lying or at the very least mileading students. I do not believe, as I've said before that Sackler is guilty of this. But it does appear that the case for special priviledges is being overstated as I cannot imagine what the student means when he/she says that "foreign schools do not participate in the match." You may very well have an easier time getting a residency in NY because of the relationship with Sackler/TAU and that certainly IS a strength of the program.

    Anyway, as you can tell I'm very interested in this topic. :) Let us know what you find out; try and clarify some of those statements because they sound a bit iffy to me.
     
  10. what it sounds like to me is that sackler is doing a good job selling the program by manipulating words...i don't believe that they are lying at all, but just placing emphasis in certain areas and letting the potential students interpret it. i can't imagine that it would be legal to obtain a degree from sackler and have it recognized as a US school. i go to a reputable european university, with many relationships with american universities (harvard, Univ of Washington, Stanford...) and i can't imagine that sackler graduates get special privleges. what about oxford grads? basically, i think the bottom line is that there will be no official "special" treatment, but that the name sackler med will compare favorably with the other foreign applicants.

    i am just expressing an opinion here, based on my research as an international student. but i think that if sackler grads were given any special treatment, then the govt would be overan by other IMGs asking why they were discriminated against. since the US govt has no jurisdiction in accrediting foreign schools, it would not be possible for these schools to be recognized/regulated. i think the closest thing possible is what california does, and that is to investigate each foriegn school individually before giving graduates the opportunity to apply for licensure.

    please, do let us know if there is any "official" recognition. i think many of us would be very interested..

    neil
     

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