Sackler vs. Queensland

[deleted718115]

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[piii]

Only 55% of IMG students were able to match last year. I doubt they had a choice of where to go either, so say good bye to staying in NY with Queensland. Matching into the US seems like you'd need ace your boards, but the fact that you are trying to take a shortcut already looks unfavorably. I'd personally rather be both an MD and DO reapplicant before considering abroad.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Israel is pretty safe, especially where you'd be living. If you're uncomfortable living in a country that has to have sirens for rocket attacks though, it might not be the place for you. You're not putting your life at a huge risk by going there, but it's not North America.

 

[goldy490]

Only 55% of IMG students were able to match last year. I doubt they had a choice of where to go either, so say good bye to staying in NY with Queensland. Matching into the US seems like you'd need ace your boards, but the fact that you are trying to take a shortcut already looks unfavorably. I'd personally rather be both an MD and DO reapplicant before considering abroad.

It does not sound like OP is trying to take shortcuts at all, it sounds like he's looking realistically at some options to take if not accepted in the US. If money isnt a huge factor I'd say Australia because you'll get rotations in the US and (like you said) be well preped for your boards. Cost of living in Australia is crazy high though.

And yes, while only 55% of IMG's match, I think a very large percentage of those are from Caribbean diploma mills, rather than schools with a well respected faculty and curriculum. Sackler and Queensland actually train doctors who practice in their home countries, while the Carrib schools do not.

 

[Goro]

Especially with a third intifada starting!

Israel is pretty safe, especially where you'd be living. If you're uncomfortable living in a country that has to have sirens for rocket attacks though, it might not be the place for you. You're not putting your life at a huge risk by going there, but it's not North America.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I was under the impression that Jewish students who want to make aliya to Israel and are capable of getting into US programs attend Sackler.

But with the violence going on, you may want to reconsider. Yikes!

 

[Spector1]

Depends what nationality you are. I believe Sackler courses are taught in English but you will probably still need to learn a bit of hebrew to survive in Israel. Also if you are a Jewish citizen of Israel, you may be subject to conscription.

Queensland, well everything there is in English.

 

[familyaerospace]

I have a bias towards Sackler, but I have a friend who went to Queensland and just graduated there. He loved it, he was hoping I would go there with him because he loved it so much.

Regarding Hebrew, Sackler gives you Hebrew courses and everything is taught in English except for the medical Hebrew courses. Also regardless of you are Jewish or Christian or Arab, you still might be subject to the draft possibly, but only if you are an Israeli citizen. You will not be likely drafted if you are married, have kids, are female (although most still join anyway), are yeshiva educated, or first step foot on Israeli soil past the age of 30. If your Hebrew is too poor, you also will not be allowed to join. I saw the list when I was going to make aliyah even if I wanted to join I couldn't. 🙁 It's also easy to go to Israel and never speak a word of Hebrew.

 

[WingedOx]

Wait until exhausting domestic options before looking abroad... that includes re-applying next year if need be.

 

[deleted718115]

Israel is pretty safe, especially where you'd be living. If you're uncomfortable living in a country that has to have sirens for rocket attacks though, it might not be the place for you. You're not putting your life at a huge risk by going there, but it's not North America.

Why do you consider Israel safe with potential rocket attacks and intifada?

 

[deleted718115]

Depends what nationality you are. I believe Sackler courses are taught in English but you will probably still need to learn a bit of hebrew to survive in Israel. Also if you are a Jewish citizen of Israel, you may be subject to conscription.

Queensland, well everything there is in English.

I am a US citizen, no dual citizenship..

I have a bias towards Sackler, but I have a friend who went to Queensland and just graduated there. He loved it, he was hoping I would go there with him because he loved it so much.

Why are you biased towards Sackler?

 

[xc_stallion92]

I've been to Tel Aviv. It's pretty freaking cool. Very modern city.

 

[WingedOx]

Though I'll say this... Worrying about getting blown up in Tel Aviv is worse than worrying about getting shot in [insert nice neighborhood in major US city]

 

[deleted718115]

Though I'll say this... Worrying about getting blown up in Tel Aviv is worse than worrying about getting shot in [insert nice neighborhood in major US city]

I'd love to believe this..., but is there any data to back this up? I googled intifada and read that several Israeli were killed recently in what is suspected as a third intifada...

 

[deleted718115]

NY considered Sackler instate solely for purposes of preapproved/unlimited clinical rotations. The NY state connection is not technically any advantage for residency match as you would still be fully an IMG. Queensland (MedEdPath) has a similar setup in a sense in LA as Ocher medical system provides 9 hospitals in and around New Orleans where all clinical training is done. Both programs are specific to US/North American students, and even though both part of larger legitimate medical schools and universities, these programs are administered separately. Both programs have both low attrition rates and match rates at or near US MD/DO schools. There is likely an indirect advantage for New York from Sackler as the area rotations have better chances for networking/audition rotation in the city. I wrote about this is a very recent thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sackler-ny-american-program-info.1164431/#post-16985832. The Queensland/MedEdPath staff in the US has former well-regarded post-bacc directors and premed advisors that came from New York area universities with associated medical schools. Certainly either program is much closer to US programs in many ways than other off shore places. While downward pressure on residencies to IMGs may reduce opportunities, they may be the best path if off-shore is the only option

Oh wow, thanks for clarifying this.

Why do some people think that "the graduates of Sackler are treated as if they had graduated from US schools for the purposes of licensing in NY state"?
In another thread, you wrote: "With New York, at one point, having a full third of doctors in training, either in medical school, residency, or fellowship, there is a long standing acceptance of these Israeli medical graduates as essentially US trained doctors" ?

 

[xc_stallion92]

I'd love to believe this..., but is there any data to back this up? I googled intifada and read that several Israeli were killed recently in what is suspected as a third intifada...

Was that in Tel Aviv? If not, then it's like worrying about vacationing in the Hamptons because people get shot in Bed-Stuy. Everything I can find is near Jerusalem and Bethlehem, which are very different from Tel Aviv.

 

[familyaerospace]

Why are you biased towards Sackler?

I have been to Israel and Tel Aviv specifically. I have never felt so at home in a place. There is very little crime and everyone treats you like family. So not having a culture clash is always a good thing especially since I would probably never have to pay for food either. 🙂

I also have friends who are at Sackler as well and I know a few who went on to do ROAD specialties in the US.

 

[deleted718115]

thanks for all the replies. I decide NOT to go to Sackler for safety reasons. I talked with my uncle who is living in West Europe and he advised me not to go. Israel (Tel Aviv) might be safe now but no one knows how it'll be 4 years down the road, and (I read a thread about a student transferring because she couldn't deal with rocket sirens all the time) like her, I can't deal with being in a political hotspot.

 

[bc65]

thanks for all the replies. I decide NOT to go to Sackler for safety reasons. I talked with my uncle who is living in West Europe and he advised me not to go. Israel (Tel Aviv) might be safe now but no one knows how it'll be 4 years down the road, and (I read a thread about a student transferring because she couldn't deal with rocket sirens all the time) like her, I can't deal with being in a political hotspot

I won't try to talk you out of your decision, but if you counted up the dead in US mass shootings in the past year, and adjusted for population differences, I'm sure it would exceed Israeli deaths due to political violence, both military and civilian. If you include all US criminal deaths, I'm sure the US would have a much higher death rate. I suspect that this would be true even if you look at years including wars in Israel, at least if you look at just civilian deaths.

Most people have a very hard time in estimating relative probability. Driving is far riskier than flying over the equivalent distance, but most people fear death in a plane crash much more than they fear death in a car crash. In fact, people worry more about death from terrorists here in the US, than they worry about death from a automobile accident, although death in a car crash is much more likely. ( Dying from a slip and fall in the shower is probably more likely as well. ) If anyone is interested in this topic, I highly recommend reading books on behavioral economics . ( e.g. books by Daniel Ariely, Daniel Kahneman, Levitt and Dubner. ) The concepts have great relevance for understanding how we make decisions, including in the practice of medicine.

 

[deleted718115]

I noticed that Sackler's match rates for 2014 and 2015 are only ~45/63, including 3-4 prelim matches... This surprised me because it is much lower than previously quoted on SDN :\

http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/

 

[bc65]

I noticed that Sackler's match rates for 2014 and 2015 are only ~45/63, including 3-4 prelim matches... This surprised me because it is much lower than previously quoted on SDN

40 matched in 2015, and 47 in 2013. However, we don't know for sure if all 63 applied to the match. Some might have stayed in Israel for residency, by choice.

In any case, the quality of the matches look pretty good. For the past two years, I see one match each into ortho, plastic surgery, and ophto. Two matched into Derm in 2014. Lots of very good hospitals, both in and outside of NY. Anesthesia matches into Baylor, Yale-New Haven. A match into Mayo. etc. I don't know if those programs are especially competitive, but they look good on paper. Certainly, the match list looks better than what one expects from the Caribbean. To me, it looks like a match list from a higher ranked US MD school in NY.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I noticed that Sackler's match rates for 2014 and 2015 are only ~45/63, including 3-4 prelim matches... This surprised me because it is much lower than previously quoted on SDN :\

http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/

Isnt 63 just the max class size? We dont know if 63 people actually applied to match.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Am I wrong, I just line counted 57 for 2014 (i missed 3rd one down)


ANESTHESIOLOGY


1 -SUNY Health Science Center Brooklyn – NY
2 -Thomas Jefferson University Hospital – PA

-University of Rochester/Strong Memorial Hospital – NY



DERMATOLOGY


4 -Einstein/Montefiore Medical Center – NY
5 -Emory University School of Medicine – GA



EMERGENCY MEDICINE
6
7 -Duke University Medical Center – NC
8 -Florida Hospital – Orlando – FL
9 -Maricopa Medical Center – AZ
10 -Newark Beth Israel Medical Center –NJ
11 -North Shore-LIJ Health System – NY
12 -NY Medical College – Metropolitan Hospital Center – NY



FAMILY MEDICINE


13/14 -Einstein/Beth Israel Medical Center – NY (2)
15 -Williamsport Hospital – PA



INTERNAL MEDICINE


16 -Albany Medical Center – NY
17 -Allegheny General Hospital – PA
18 -Case Western/MetroHealth Medical Center – OH
19 -Drexel University College Of Medicine/ Hahnemann University Hospital
20 -Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai – NY
21 -Icahn School of Medicine St. Luke’s-Roosevelt – NY
22 -St. Mary’s Medical Center -SF-CA
23 -St. Vincent Hospital – MA
24/25 -SUNY Health Science Center Brooklyn –NY (2)
26 -University of Chicago Medical Center – IL
27 -Yale-New Haven Hospital – CT



MEDICINE PEDIATRICS


28 -Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center – MI



OBSTETRICS & GYNECOLOGY


29 -Kern Medical Center – CA
30 -Lankenau Hospital –PA
31 -New York Presbyterian Hospital -Weill Cornell Medical Center
32 -Newark Beth Israel Medical Center –NJ
33 -Rochester General Hospital – NY
34 -Rutgers-New Jersey Medical School



OPHTHALMOLOGY


35 -University of Virginia



PEDIATRICS


36 -Baystate Medical Center – MA
37 -Children’s National Medical Center – DC
38 -Einstein/Jacobi Medical Center – NY
39 -Jackson Memorial Hospital – FL
40 -Maimonides Medical Center – NY (2)
41 -Miami Children’s Hospital – FL
42 -North Shore-LIJ Health System – NY
43 -Tulane University School of Medicine – LA
44 -Winthrop- University Hospital – NY



PHYSICAL MEDICINE & REHABILITATION


45 -North Shore-LIJ Health System – NY



PSYCHIATRY


46 -Einstein/Montefiore Medical Center – NY
47 -Emory University School of Medicine – GA
48/49 -Icahn School of Medicine St. Luke’s-Roosevelt – NY (2)



RADIOLOGY DIAGNOSTIC


50 -Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai-NY



GENERAL SURGERY


51 -Einstein/Montefiore Medical Center -NY
52 -Maimonides Medical Center – NY
53 -SUNY Upstate Medical University
54 -University at Buffalo School of Medicine – NY



PLASTIC & RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY


55 -University of North Carolina Hospitals



UROLOGY


56 -University of Illinois College of Medicine – Chicago

Looks like a pretty good list, how bad do you think a school like Sackler will be hurt by the merger?

 

[whatever5]

Having grown up in the middle east with heavy terrorist activity and hearing the way the situation is talked about from the US perspective, I can tell you its not as bad as it sounds. It does make a difference how sheltered you are, if you're going to have an anxiety attack and not be able to study when you hear a gunshot, it's probably not for you.

 

[deleted718115]

Only 45 matched in 2015...

What do you think of the NYS Letter that states 'Sackler grads are treated as if they were from NY'? http://sacklermedicine.us/information/new-york-state-letter/

 

[Doug Underhill]

Can you get accepted to Sackler if you are of Palestinian descent?

 

[mcat_taker]

I am in this application cycle applying to US MD and DO schools and some foreign programs as backups. Just in case that I have to resort to going out of country for medical school, these are the 2 options that I'm juggling and hoping to have advice on which is the better deal in the long run:

1/ Sackler: its graduates being considered in-state in New York is the biggest advantage that an IMG can have. Curriculum geared toward USMLE (?). It has very strong match lists. I want to practice in NY, so Sackler and its strong tie to NY interest me.
Disadvantage: please correct me if I'm wrong: I've heard Israel is probably safe as a country but not for the people in it individually. It has a massive military force due to its surroundings all wanting to destroy it. It is probably safe from invasion for now but it is a crime-ridden place with lots of individual act terrorisms and super dangerous borders. However, some people are saying Tel Aviv is a pretty safe place to live so I don't know which is the truth. I've come across both opinions when performing google search... would love to have some actual data.

2/ Queensland-Ochsner: class sizes were small (~25) but it has increased class size to ~90 since last year. Advantages being the safest city to live in, world-class education, superb clinical training (its students have been mashing USMLE Step 2), 3rd & 4th year rotations entirely in the US, good match lists so far.
Disadvantage: its graduates are considered IMGs and will have significant disadvantage in the Match (especially when American class sizes are increasing), curriculum not geared toward USMLE.

Both schools have close to zero attrition rates and are eligible for federal loans.

The Ochsner cohort is like 120 now. Bear in mind for UQ-O the total class size is about 500.

 

[familyaerospace]

I noticed that Sackler's match rates for 2014 and 2015 are only ~45/63, including 3-4 prelim matches... This surprised me because it is much lower than previously quoted on SDN :\

http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/

A lot of Sackler's students are also not US-only, they are international. A few are Canadians and try to go back home. Others do stay in Israel by choice which is what I would have tried to do.

Can you get accepted to Sackler if you are of Palestinian descent?

Yes, there are lots of Palestinians in medical school in Israel (Sackler included) and are having no problems there.

 

[familyaerospace]

The particular program is open to citizens/permanent residents of USA/Canada, though I am sure some, if not many, are dual citizens or can easily gain Israeli citizenship.

You can also easily live in Israel and work in Israel without becoming a citizen. The path to citizenship isn't that hard if you want to take it. You don't have to be Jewish either although it helps.

A few from the US style Sackler program each year do stay on to do their residency in Israel. There was at least one that went back to Europe to practice. I know people from both of the Sackler programs.

 

[Mad Jack]

Sackler.

 

[alwaysbehappy]

As a first year student at Sackler, I'm really loving every minute in med school. In terms of safety, I feel Tel Aviv is one of the safest parts of the country. If anyone has any particular questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Go to Queensland and just be a doc in Australia. Sounds great to me...


If you really need to live in the US, Sackler is the more reputable school and has some kind of relationship with New York residencies.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Which is exactly what I said - it would be difficult to match into the US but presumably easy to stay in Australia.