Safe to prescribe SNRI + Wellbutrin?

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Blitz2006

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I Know officially Wellbutrin is NDRI.

So I'm concerned about the norepinephrine levels, and using wellbutrin as an adjunct to Cymbalta or Effexor for depression.

Should I avoid, or am I overthinking/wrong on this?

Thanks

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You posted after I had already deleted my post. The post couldn't have been up for more than 20 minutes or so.


I think he saw it soon after you posted it... I know I was able to read it before you deleted it.
 
I posted something where I made a very clear disclaimer I was not a doctor or medical provider. Any time I have written something where someone is asking about clinical decision making I add that extra disclaimer. But I would hope that people realize that any advice taken off the Internet in an informal setting cannot be verified to be coming from a physician. If my physician got advice here I would appreciate it but also want them to weigh it with other factors.

The reason I deleted it was that I reflected that what I posted was probably already obvious, and I realize I should not assume that people don't know things that I know (or believe that I know). It also wasn't in direct response to the question about norepinpephrine.

I don't believe there was anything factually wrong with what I wrote, but if there had been I would be very open to knowing it and having edited or deleted it. (Now I am curious if it was wrong.)

In the end (and by end I mean probably 15-20 minutes later) I had a nagging feeling after posting that I was telling something obvious to someone who would already know that information because it is their area of expertise so it seemed pedantic and also not specific to the question about norepinephrine. So I decided to delete it. I did it rather quickly, but I understand it was seen before I had deleted it. I did not see the other posts about my post as I was deleting mine but it may be because I had not refreshed the page.
 
Yeah, I feel like patients shouldn't be allowed to post on these forums and if they are, they certainly shouldn't be giving advice.


this is an open forum where anyone can post..there’s a badge you can get that says you’ve been verified as an attending, he obviously should be allowed to post and say anything he wants as none of us should be giving medical advice in the first place
 
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this is an open forum where anyone can post..there’s a badge you can get that says you’ve been verified as an attending, he obviously should be allowed to post and say anything he wants as none of us should be giving medical advice in the first place

Which is exactly why none of us should believe you’re a resident right because you haven’t been verified?

also, the OP is a fine question. Giving medical advice to a specific patient over the internet is much different than bouncing ideas for clinical decision making off other clinicians.
 
Which is exactly why none of us should believe you’re a resident right because you haven’t been verified?

also, the OP is a fine question. Giving medical advice to a specific patient over the internet is much different than bouncing ideas for clinical decision making off other clinicians.

residents don’t get verified..you shouldn’t believe anything I say just because I say it..it’s the internet..I know it’s a good question that’s why I answered it..you don’t need to be a doctor to read a pharm book and know the answer hence why anyone can post
 
residents don’t get verified..you shouldn’t believe anything I say just because I say it..it’s the internet..I know it’s a good question that’s why I answered it..you don’t need to be a doctor to read a pharm book and know the answer hence why anyone can post

Residents absolutely can get verified.
 
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Which is exactly why none of us should believe you’re a resident right because you haven’t been verified?

also, the OP is a fine question. Giving medical advice to a specific patient over the internet is much different than bouncing ideas for clinical decision making off other clinicians.
Why is psychapp account on hold?
 
Mostly used it for smoking d/c.
 
I Know officially Wellbutrin is NDRI.

So I'm concerned about the norepinephrine levels, and using wellbutrin as an adjunct to Cymbalta or Effexor for depression.

Should I avoid, or am I overthinking/wrong on this?

Thanks

From my understanding
Effexor <200 + Wellbutrin = less concern, effexor more of an ssri than snri
Effexor >200 +Wellbutrin = monitor bp
Cymbalta +Wellbutrin = monitor bp

Modify caution depending on dose of each drug, formulation (immediate, 12hr, 24hr as immediate + immediate can be more activating), and considerations for CYP2d6 interactions. Anyone else have anything to add?
 
I have multiple patients on Effexor+Wellbutrin, many of which I have started. Working pretty well for them, but always make it a point to discuss side effects and we always check BP. Even with Effexor/SNRI monotherapy, plenty of people already have hypertension (mostly people that were already borderline to begin with).

Also, I'm curious what birchswing said that got everyone worked up.
 
I have multiple patients on Effexor+Wellbutrin, many of which I have started. Working pretty well for them, but always make it a point to discuss side effects and we always check BP. Even with Effexor/SNRI monotherapy, plenty of people already have hypertension (mostly people that were already borderline to begin with).

Also, I'm curious what birchswing said that got everyone worked up.
Its not the what, its the who. He/she isn't a physician or other provider and some people feel that means they shouldn't voice opinions in certain areas.
 
Its not the what, its the who. He/she isn't a physician or other provider and some people feel that means they shouldn't voice opinions in certain areas.

Which includes myself of course.

I may like flying model airplanes but that doesn’t mean I should go on a commercial pilots forum and start offering my opinions on questions asked about flying there.
 
Which includes myself of course.

I may like flying model airplanes but that doesn’t mean I should go on a commercial pilots forum and start offering my opinions on questions asked about flying there.
I spent a fair bit of time trying to find a neutral way of putting that as I'm not passing judgment on anyone in this regard, but nothing seemed to really work so I'll just spell it out here.
 
From my understanding
Effexor <200 + Wellbutrin = less concern, effexor more of an ssri than snri
Effexor >200 +Wellbutrin = monitor bp
Cymbalta +Wellbutrin = monitor bp

Modify caution depending on dose of each drug, formulation (immediate, 12hr, 24hr as immediate + immediate can be more activating), and considerations for CYP2d6 interactions. Anyone else have anything to add?
Pretty much how I approach it. I mean, anyone that's on a SNRI I monitor BP regardless out of an abundance of caution but doubly so if they also have bupropion in their regimen.
 
If a patient fails 2 trial of SSRI due to intolerable side effect, it is ok to try a 3rd SSRI or just move on to a SNRI. What the guideline says on that?
 
If a patient fails 2 trial of SSRI due to intolerable side effect, it is ok to try a 3rd SSRI or just move on to a SNRI. What the guideline says on that?
Really going to depend on the patient, their medical history, their family history, how long they were on the medication, what other medications they are on, whether they had a partial or total response, what the two medications were, what side effects they were having, etc.

Cookie cutter responses that neglect the entirety of a case can lead to bad medicine
 
Really going to depend on the patient, their medical history, their family history, how long they were on the medication, what other medications they are on, whether they had a partial or total response, what the two medications were, what side effects they were having, etc.

Cookie cutter responses that neglect the entirety of a case can lead to bad medicine
Age: Late 40s. Depression started after patient had an accident in his job and could not return due to back injury.
PMHx: Nothing significant
Psych hx: Depression when he was college. Does not remember what med he was on.
FHx: Younger brother with depression--taking SSRI
Meds: Voltaren gel and Lidocaine patch for back pain

Patient on Prozac for ~ 10 wks (minimal response); switched to Lexapro (partial response)--still on it and it's been over 2 months now ... Has had decreased libido on both.


They are saying our psych clinic is overwhelmed because we are referring too many patients with depression/anxiety to them. They are are forcing us to treat these patients now. My knowledge in psych is from studying for step1/2/3. 🙁
 
Just a few options off the top of my head.

1) Exogenous Depression. The onset of his depression began coincides with a distinct stressor -- sudden loss of his livelihood, purpose, and possibly chronic pain. His depression is, in some ways, understandable. Who wouldn't be depressed? This situation doesn't mean he won't respond to medications, but rather than simply focusing on the depressive symptoms, treating his pain, helping him find a new job, and rediscovering meaning could be just as important to his prognosis. Now I know primary care is strapped in time -- recommend a therapist, if possible and if he's receptive.
2) You may be able to back down on the Lexapro dosage and see if the sexual side effects improve. 20 to 15? 15 to 10? The issue is here is that he may need more medication for his depression. You also may ask him to take the medication after intercourse, as timing may affect the sexual function.
3) Augment the Lexpapro with Wellbutrin. In this case, it may bring the depression to full remission and also treat the sexual side effects. Wellbutrin works in a different way than SSRIs, so you won't be worsening the serotonin effects. There is a little evidence that Trazodone may also help with sexual side effects.
4) SNRIs are also likely to cause sexual side effects but may be worth a try. A possibility is to stop the Lexapro and start Cymbalta. If the patient has chronic pain that's resistant to treatment and affecting his mood, the norepinephrine effects from an SNRI may be useful.
 
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He is seeing a psychologist now...


I was going to start him Wellbutrin; I was not sure whether or not I should try another SSRI... or what the guidelines say about that.
 
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He is seeing a psychologist now...


I was going to start him Wellbutrin(SNRI); I was not sure whether or not I should try another SSRI... or what the guidelines say about that.

So Wellbutrin isn't an SNRI. It's an NDRI (norepi and dopamine). It's often used in augmentation with SSRI to either treat depression or the side effect of reduced libido.

I disagree with the above post about reducing dose of Lexapro when he's only had a partial response. If anything, I would augment with Wellbutrin to help with libido (and assess mood when augmenting) and if mood is still depressed, increase Lexapro to maximum dose.

And yes, I can see your clinic's point re: too many depression referrals. The majority of my patients are depression/anxiety, leaving the bipolar disorder and schizophrenic patients on complicated regimens to wait until late May to be seen.

Most patients with unipolar depression will respond to one SSRI without a problem, so it makes sense for primary care to treat. However, if you're unable to adequately treat his depression without side effects, I think it's appropriate to refer.
 
So Wellbutrin isn't an SNRI. It's an NDRI (norepi and dopamine). It's often used in augmentation with SSRI to either treat depression or the side effect of reduced libido.

I am not sure why they want internist to treat depression/anxiety TBH... If psych clinic is overwhelmed, these patients should be referred to FM clinic since these people know more about psych than us. Starting to dislike my program...
 
I am not sure why they want internist to treat depression/anxiety TBH... If psych clinic is overwhelmed, these patients should be referred to FM clinic since these people know more about psych than us. Starting to dislike my program...

Because uncomplicated depression or anxiety is really part of primary care? (Which general IM is). That’s like saying “idk why derm keeps telling me to treat all this uncomplicated eczema myself, I didn’t go into IM to treat rashes”.
 
I am not sure why they want internist to treat depression/anxiety TBH... If psych clinic is overwhelmed, these patients should be referred to FM clinic since these people know more about psych than us. Starting to dislike my program...

What? Why would FM know more about psych than you do? Uncomplicated depression is a primary care issue. And if you don't know how to treat it, then good thing you're a resident. Time to learn. As @calvnandhobbs68 said, think of depression like eczema or migraine or HLD or DM. Do you send everyone with a BP of 140/90 to cards?
 
Just a few options off the top of my head.

1) Exogenous Depression. The onset of his depression began coincides with a distinct stressor -- sudden loss of his livelihood, purpose, and possibly chronic pain. His depression is, in some ways, understandable. Who wouldn't be depressed? This situation doesn't mean he won't respond to medications, but rather than simply focusing on the depressive symptoms, treating his pain, helping him find a new job, and rediscovering meaning could be just as important to his prognosis. Now I know primary care is strapped in time -- recommend a therapist, if possible and if he's receptive.
2) You may be able to back down on the Lexapro dosage and see if the sexual side effects improve. 20 to 15? 15 to 10? The issue is here is that he may need more medication for his depression. You also may ask him to take the medication after intercourse, as timing may affect the sexual function.
3) Augment the Lexpapro with Wellbutrin. In this case, it may bring the depression to full remission and also treat the sexual side effects. Wellbutrin works in a different way than SSRIs, so you won't be worsening the serotonin effects. There is a little evidence that Trazodone may also help with sexual side effects.
4) SNRIs are also likely to cause sexual side effects but may be worth a try. A possibility is to stop the Lexapro and start Cymbalta. If the patient has chronic pain that's resistant to treatment and affecting his mood, the norepinephrine effects from an SNRI may be useful.
This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say

If you've got a partial response, augmenting with bupropion might be able to mitigate side effects to some extent. Loss of libido can also be related to his prolonged depression, and relieving his depression may provide relief of symptoms- this is one of the confounders when it comes to libido and depression treatment. Is it the med, is it a nocebo effect, or is it the depression itself?

In the case of a partial response but side effects, I usually augment with bupropion, as there is some evidence that it can improve sexual side effects in particular, as well as being an effective augmentation for depression. If the augmentation fails to relieve depressive symptoms or the side effects remain intolerable, then I would try a SNRI. That's just my approach though, psych is a little bit more artful than other fields, so others may approach it differently.
 
What? Why would FM know more about psych than you do? Uncomplicated depression is a primary care issue. And if you don't know how to treat it, then good thing you're a resident. Time to learn. As @calvnandhobbs68 said, think of depression like eczema or migraine or HLD or DM. Do you send everyone with a BP of 140/90 to cards?
In fairness, many IM programs treat outpatient clinic as an afterthought. So while internists should be our equals at basic psych, the reality is that this is rarely the case.
 
This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say

If you've got a partial response, augmenting with bupropion might be able to mitigate side effects to some extent. Loss of libido can also be related to his prolonged depression, and relieving his depression may provide relief of symptoms- this is one of the confounders when it comes to libido and depression treatment. Is it the med, is it a nocebo effect, or is it the depression itself?

In the case of a partial response but side effects, I usually augment with bupropion, as there is some evidence that it can improve sexual side effects in particular, as well as being an effective augmentation for depression. If the augmentation fails to relieve depressive symptoms or the side effects remain intolerable, then I would try a SNRI. That's just my approach though, psych is a little bit more artful than other fields, so others may approach it differently.

About a third of people taking an SSRI experience sexual dysfunction. They have proven efficacy in delaying ejaculation. The prior probability on whether Lexapro is responsible for sexual side effects that emerge with treatment is very close to 1.

Worth figuring out exactly what the sexual side effects are. Loss of actual desire for sex, tricky to address. Problems with achieving/maintaining erection, well, you're an internist, OP, you should feel competent with how to treat that pharmacologically.

An old OCD hand whose experience I respect (and who obviously put lots of people on whopping doses SSRIs) would tell people to skip their Friday morning dose and take their Saturday dose at bedtime to address this.
 
About a third of people taking an SSRI experience sexual dysfunction. They have proven efficacy in delaying ejaculation. The prior probability on whether Lexapro is responsible for sexual side effects that emerge with treatment is very close to 1.

Worth figuring out exactly what the sexual side effects are. Loss of actual desire for sex, tricky to address. Problems with achieving/maintaining erection, well, you're an internist, OP, you should feel competent with how to treat that pharmacologically.

An old OCD hand whose experience I respect (and who obviously put lots of people on whopping doses SSRIs) would tell people to skip their Friday morning dose and take their Saturday dose at bedtime to address this.
His issue was with libido, not delayed ejaculation, which left thinking it is difficult to assign causality to the medication. But it is more likely than not, absolutely. Either way I feel like I'd be inclined to try bupropion augmentation if he's finding some relief, with plan to cross-titrate off of the Lexapro and onto an increased dose of Wellbutrin should his depression improve but side effects remain unbearable once augmentation is attempted. Seem like a reasonable approach?

I'm curious how other people do this sort of thing, as it's very common to encounter, kind of glad this thread popped up. Had never considered weekly drug holidays, but for non-depression patients or those on medications with long enough half-lives it seems like an interesting solution
 
His issue was with libido, not delayed ejaculation, which left thinking it is difficult to assign causality to the medication. But it is more likely than not, absolutely. Either way I feel like I'd be inclined to try bupropion augmentation if he's finding some relief, with plan to cross-titrate off of the Lexapro and onto an increased dose of Wellbutrin should his depression improve but side effects remain unbearable once augmentation is attempted. Seem like a reasonable approach?

I'm curious how other people do this sort of thing, as it's very common to encounter, kind of glad this thread popped up. Had never considered weekly drug holidays, but for non-depression patients or those on medications with long enough half-lives it seems like an interesting solution

I've heard the weekend holiday thing before, though I've never tried it. I usually have luck with Wellbutrin augmentation for sexual side effects and if depressive symptoms continue, I max out the SSRI. In the cases where Wellbutrin hasn't worked for side effects, I taper the SSRI as you suggested and attempt to treat the depression with Wellbutrin alone since the patient is already on that. If symptoms remain, I go to an SNRI.
 
Viibryd is an option for those with sexual side effects. What You Need to Know About the Newest Antidepressants


Another option is adding buspar to help with sexual side effects. Buspar may help with anxiety.

But in this case, the patient's complaint is depression so I think augmenting with another antidepressant is probably a better option than BuSpar. Interesting about Viibryd. I haven't used it for sexual side effects, so will keep it in mind.
 
But in this case, the patient's complaint is depression so I think augmenting with another antidepressant is probably a better option than BuSpar. Interesting about Viibryd. I haven't used it for sexual side effects, so will keep it in mind.

STAR*D suggested that buspirone actually does alright as antidepressant augmentation. I think the fact that the company making it sought an indication for GAD and not MDD is a function of wanting to have their own lane in a crowded marketplace, not because of the intrinsic efficacy or effectiveness. Directly comparable to Luvox being indicated for OCD etc.
 
STAR*D suggested that buspirone actually does alright as antidepressant augmentation.

Right because it can help to boost the efficacy of the SSRI rather than improving mood on its own. But as we were talking about earlier, if the side effects don't improve (which is the reason for augmentation), you likely wouldn't get meaningful results with BuSpar monotherapy. I mean, it makes sense to try it I guess, but I think in a case where there's depression without anxiety, I'd opt for Wellbutrin over BuSpar and if side effects from SSRI remained but mood improved, I'd consider lowering dose of SSRI. YMMV.
 
Couple follow-up academic questions:

1. Do ppl ever prescribe Buspar for MDD as Monotherapy?

2. Do people commonly prescribe Buspar as adjunct for MDD? Or is it preferred to first try Remeron or Wellbutrin?

3. Is it Safe to prescribe TCA + Remeron or TCA + Wellbutrin?
 
1) no

2) yes it’s reasonable, although the latter are likely stronger

3) yes this is safe if you know what you’re doing and should be left to a psychiatrist
 
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