salaries, expenses, and malpractice

[bobbigboote]

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Wow I've never been called a hippie liberal before! Thanks Cartman!

To echo what some others have said, I'll tell you a little anecdote:

I used to work for Microsoft. In case you aren't familiar with it, Microsoft makes software and for a number of years the people working there made a LOT of money. (Through stock options) Many of these people are my friends. A few of my more foolish friends bought BMW's/Jaguars/Mercedes and 500k+ houses and other trappings of the wealthy. Then the market tanked and some lost a lot of their investments. In addition, Microsoft stock is no longer going anywhere. Some have had to sell their houses and move in to more "modest" 250-300k places and trade in their BMW for a Honda. Those that still have a lot of money didn't spend it in the first place and had lower living expenses.

During the time when they made lots of money, they were more stressed out than they are now. They were obsessed with it and I can't tell you how many boring coversations about vesting strategies and such I had to endure. (I can't say I never did that too though) Now they actually talk about normal people things like what they're going to do on the weekend and how their kids are doing in school. And they are actually taking their vacation time now. Work and money aren't as all consuming as they once were.

Amicus, it appears that we are all generally in agreement.

-Money does not equal happiness.

-One should not give up on their aspirations.

-It's useful for us all to organize and make sure we don't get financially screwed by the insurance companies, etc.

And you're right, 10 years is a big investment in time and there's no way you can accurately forecast what employment and salaries are going to be like. But this kind of gambling is no different than the gambles that millions of others take when they get advanced degrees that take years + money to make happen. So let's not expect that we will make X dollars a year, but let's also fight for what we feel like is merited by our efforts. No one here is saying "settle for less". We're just saying that in the worst case scenario we will still be able to live a great life that's at a much higher standard of living than most people.

 

[Amicus]

And you're right, 10 years is a big investment in time and there's no way you can accurately forecast what employment and salaries are going to be like. But this kind of gambling is no different than the gambles that millions of others take when they get advanced degrees that take years + money to make happen. So let's not expect that we will make X dollars a year, but let's also fight for what we feel like is merited by our efforts. No one here is saying "settle for less". We're just saying that in the worst case scenario we will still be able to live a great life that's at a much higher standard of living than most people.

Worst case scenario, im not sure we would be living a life much higher than most. Most people who are 30 will have 10 years of senority and pay raises at their job. Most poeple will not be 200K in debt and most people will have had 10 years worth of pay checks to take retierment savings out of.
If a single payer system is intituted i dont see that docs making under 100K is unlikely. Try and pay back 200K of loans and save for retierment short the 8-9 years you lost to higher education. The worst case scenario is neither highly unlikely or a high standard of living. It is scary if you ask me. Vote republican.

 

[Sessamoid]

Worst case scenario, im not sure we would be living a life much higher than most. Most people who are 30 will have 10 years of senority and pay raises at their job. Most poeple will not be 200K in debt and most people will have had 10 years worth of pay checks to take retierment savings out of.
If a single payer system is intituted i dont see that docs making under 100K is unlikely. Try and pay back 200K of loans and save for retierment short the 8-9 years you lost to higher education. The worst case scenario is neither highly unlikely or a high standard of living. It is scary if you ask me. Vote republican.

The worst case scenario is almost always highly unlikely, as is the best case scenario. The future almost always lies somewhere in between.

Worst case scenario in personal freedoms? How about government gets the right to apprehend and imprison American citizens, ship them off to foreign prisons and hold them indefinitely without access to lawyer, press, or family. That would never happen, right?

 

[Amicus]

The worst case scenario is almost always highly unlikely, as is the best case scenario. The future almost always lies somewhere in between.

Worst case scenario in personal freedoms? How about government gets the right to apprehend and imprison American citizens, ship them off to foreign prisons and hold them indefinitely without access to lawyer, press, or family. That would never happen, right?

🙄

Ok, worst case scenario is that doctors are hunted down like apes and shot in 2012 when it is learned that, in fact, McDonalds if very very good for you.

I meant the worst reasonable situation. I would put the odds of 9 in 10 docs making under 100K of todays dollars in 10 years at about 25%

 

[Sessamoid]

🙄

Ok, worst case scenario is that doctors are hunted down like apes and shot in 2012 when it is learned that, in fact, McDonalds if very very good for you.

I meant the worst reasonable situation. I would put the odds of 9 in 10 docs making under 100K of todays dollars in 10 years at about 25%

I submit that my worst case scenario is at least as likely as your worst reasonable case scenario and a whole lot scarier. After all, it's already happened.

 

[drlisa0318]

Belive me, I respect what you are doing. I dont belive it is ever to late to follow your heart. My point was that many many older people have lied themselves into accepting their lives as they are beacuse changing it is to hard. People with far less balls than you. 🙂

The downside to your courage is this. You truly are up against a major obstacle. The bottom line is that our tuition does not pay for a fraction of our medical education. It is alot of tax payer money. It takes millions to run a medical school and there are limited spots. So who do you invest in? A person who will practice for 10 years, 20 at the most, or somone who will practice 35 or 45 years? Im not saying people your age dont get in, but you have the uneviable position of trying to convince an admissions commite why they should let you in. This is probably the harshest thing i have ever writen but either its not true and you can blow me off, or it is true and better you know now that the deck is overwhelmingly stacked against you.

your other post was great by the way.

I'm well aware of the odds, so I'll only be applying to DO schools which are much friendlier to non-traditional students. Just as well, since I want to go into family medicine, and DO schools generally place great emphasis on that. Can't be any more difficult than convincing hubby of the rightness of my decision. (And before you say anything about how difficult just getting accepted in to medical school is, let me say...you've never met my husband! ) Seriously, I do know that it may very well be more difficult for me to get in than traditional students, but I'm not one to back down from a challenge, particularly when I feel as strongly about something as I do about being a doctor. As to whether or not the deck is stacked "overwhelmingly" against me....I don't think I'd go that far. Med schools in general, and DO schools in particular, are becoming more and more willing to accept older students. (Check out www.oldpremeds.org - great site.)

 

[Hudson]

sessamoid relax a little. I apologize if my tax calculations are not up to your standards They were rough numbers (hence round numbers), but I'm sure you noticed that.


What is unreasonable to you is not unreasonable for others. Sure you are entitled to your opinion, but remember that it is just that. I base a lot of what I say from talking with current professionals about how much it takes to live the kind of life that you want. I never said we are are "entitled" to anything. I'm simply making the point that 150K ,in the most expensive years of your life (with kids), is not a ton of money. There are a lot of curve balls thrown at people during life and it is nice to have the money to fix things that money can fix. Practically speaking it makes sense that doctors should get paid as much, if not more, that say your orthodontist. Obviously not everyone feels this way.

30-35K is not an excessive or "unreasonable" amount of money to spend on a car. Maybe my opinion is flawed because of my "amazing lack of control with managing my finances." What if you want to tow a boat, maybe have four wheel drive because you enjoy the outdoors. Maybe I should just give up my outdoor hobbies because I would hate to make such an unreasonable purchase such as a new SUV.

Obviously you build wealth over time and don't buy everything right out of the gate. Doctors have a lot of lost time to make up for.

FYI I too went to public school from 6th grade forward. Public college and med school. I do feel that I could have gotten a better education at a Private high school. It all worked out well for me. It is nice to have the means to afford private education if you so desire.

 

[Sessamoid]

sessamoid relax a little. I apologize if my tax calculations are not up to your standards They were rough numbers (hence round numbers), but I'm sure you noticed that.

I'm sorry if I came off a little harsh, but you sounded like you were camping with a lot of others on the board who are convinced the sky is falling, and that we must banish all physician extenders, shoot all the democrats, and kill all the lawyers. Actually the last one doesn't sound so bad sometimes.

But you picked an extreme to illustrate your point, so I think I'm entitled to a little leeway here too.

What is unreasonable to you is not unreasonable for others.

If you're only making 150K per year, starting out spending they way you illustrate is unreasonable. If you're an established orthopod making mad cash, then that situation is quite reasonable, perhaps overconservative.

I don't propose giving up all your hobbies, but one should temper one's pasttimes to those that don't break the bank. As we make more money, our hobbies get more expensive.

 

[Amicus]

I'm well aware of the odds, so I'll only be applying to DO schools which are much friendlier to non-traditional students. Just as well, since I want to go into family medicine, and DO schools generally place great emphasis on that. Can't be any more difficult than convincing hubby of the rightness of my decision. (And before you say anything about how difficult just getting accepted in to medical school is, let me say...you've never met my husband! ) Seriously, I do know that it may very well be more difficult for me to get in than traditional students, but I'm not one to back down from a challenge, particularly when I feel as strongly about something as I do about being a doctor. As to whether or not the deck is stacked "overwhelmingly" against me....I don't think I'd go that far. Med schools in general, and DO schools in particular, are becoming more and more willing to accept older students. (Check out www.oldpremeds.org - great site.)

I bet that was hard convincing hubby. Anyway, you have my respect.

 

[Seaglass]

As for the "Old premeds have it rough" thing I'm not so sure that's true. It seems that way but I think that's only because the vast, vast, vast majority of applicants are your typical college seniors. I'm willing to bet that a similar percentage of non-trads is admitted as trads. As a matter of fact I'll bet a fentanyl lollipop.

C

 

[Amicus]

As for the "Old premeds have it rough" thing I'm not so sure that's true. It seems that way but I think that's only because the vast, vast, vast majority of applicants are your typical college seniors. I'm willing to bet that a similar percentage of non-trads is admitted as trads. As a matter of fact I'll bet a fentanyl lollipop.

C

it is inefficent to spend hundreds of K on training someone who can only practice for ten years. I would venture to say a med school would NEVER let anyone in who is over 55. How much can a person do once they are out of training at 65? Schools have a responsibility to provide the country with doctors who can practice for a reasonable period of time since it is tax payer money that funds the schools (tuition is only a fraction of the cost).

 

[Seaglass]

Now I'm not totally unreceptive to that argument. But it has nothing to do with what I said, and I'm certainly not going to give you a fentanyl lollipop for it.

C

 

[Sessamoid]

Now I'm not totally unreceptive to that argument. But it has nothing to do with what I said, and I'm certainly not going to give you a fentanyl lollipop for it.

C

Dammit, gimme that lollipop or I'll beat it out of you! Gimme, gimme, gimme!

😀

 

[ortho2003]

it is inefficent to spend hundreds of K on training someone who can only practice for ten years. I would venture to say a med school would NEVER let anyone in who is over 55. How much can a person do once they are out of training at 65? Schools have a responsibility to provide the country with doctors who can practice for a reasonable period of time since it is tax payer money that funds the schools (tuition is only a fraction of the cost).

michigan state college of osteopathic medicine just graduated a guy in his 60's.

 

[drlisa0318]

I bet that was hard convincing hubby. Anyway, you have my respect.

Many thanks! 😳

 

[drlisa0318]

michigan state college of osteopathic medicine just graduated a guy in his 60's.

Okay, that's it. I'm officially not old!

 

[mikematto]

30-35K is not an excessive or "unreasonable" amount of money to spend on a car. Maybe my opinion is flawed because of my "amazing lack of control with managing my finances." What if you want to tow a boat, maybe have four wheel drive because you enjoy the outdoors. Maybe I should just give up my outdoor hobbies because I would hate to make such an unreasonable purchase such as a new SUV.

Hmmmmm. Personally, I go to the outdoors to get away from all the city folks and their $35K SUVs.

 

[NonTradMed]

Hmmmm.....man, I feel poor now. My parents' combined income is ~$150,000 and I have to say, it's pretty comfortable. I can't imagine having that much money BY MYSELF at age 35. Even if I do have a heavy debt and haven't worked in almost a decade, in teh long run, making $150,000/yr to pay that off, to me, is still a lot of money to live off of. I guess that's b/c I know people who live off a fraction of that and still do so comfortably (by my standards).

I'm working right now and make ~$50,000 while paying down a sizable school debt, and I still feel very comfortable financially. I guess I must be either living in the cheapest state in the country or people on this board have much higher standards than me. 😎

Hey, all I can say is, to each their own, but if you are pissed that as physicians you are making only $150,000, go into something else.....I would love to take your position in medical school! 😀

 

[CJMPre-Med]

There is no way that any sort of physician (primary care or whatever) should be making less than $165K per year. Unfortunately, some make much less than that (around $100-120K, much less than even your "comfortable" $150K); this will likely be the one factor which keeps me from being a pediatrician, which is what I always wanted to be. I refuse to not be comfortable after going through 7+ years of postgraduate schooling and residency and incurring $150K+ in debt-- not to mention putting my life on hold in terms of family, children etc. for that time. It's not sensible. And I adore children, which is really the shame of it all.

 

[ortho2003]

Heres your reality check:
If you make 150K/yr. you will pay around 34,700$ in income taxes and another ~4% in medicare and social security=40,700 total taxes. Therefore your take home income after taxes is 109,300$.

Lets say your home cost 450,000$ a 30year mortage at 8%(I know this is higher than what is currently available) will cost you 3,301$/mo=39,612$/year. Add 1.5% for property taxes=6750$. Say you have 450$/mo in bills to run your house=5400$/year. Grand total to own and run house/yr= 51,762.
Your disposable income is now $57,538.

Ok, now we are going to buy cars. Since you want your family to be safe and you have to haul the kids around we are going to buy 2 Ford Explorer XLT's which will end up costing 35K each after taxes. With 10% down on each one and ~5% financing over 5 years you will pay $14,266 a year for your vehicles. Add about $2000/year for gas and another $1500 a year for insurance. Grand total of owning two cars/year= 17,766.
Your disposable income is now $39,772.

Now lets send our Kids to Private School. Lets say 8000/year/kid= $16,000/yr.
(This may or may not be an expense depending on your location) For me it would be.
Disposable income is now is $23,772.

Now we will buy clothes and food(with two kids) lets just say~$1000/month.= $12,000/year.
Disposable income is now $11,772/year.

If you have $120,000 in student loans then you will be paying I think around $1200/month = 14,400/year.
Disposable incom is now -$2628.

Keep in mind we have not insured anything but our cars. We have not saved a cent for retirement. We have not taken a vacation, bought anything "extra." We have not given to charity or grabbed season football tickets to your alma malter. We have not saved for college either or made a single investment on the side.

I have not taken into account that some people will be dual income and therefore will have some help. In addition, I know that houses in small medium size cities are much less than 450K/year. I also assumed zero debt forgiveness when joing a group. My point with the above numbers was to show that 150K is not that much money once you acccount for all your expenses. I do not find anything in the above to be "unrealistic," yet the above lifestyle is unrealistic on 150K/year. People need to sit down and see what they want out of life and how financially comfortable they want to be. This is more important to some than others, but still important none the less.
Also keep in mind that most non-primary care physicians make well over 200K/year.

There are some flaws in this math. 1st of all, you do not look at any tax benefits here. For the house alone, you probably get about 15,000/yr tax benefit. I am not going to get into the other tax benefits you can receive, but this one alone will likely give you $1000/month disposable income even with your estimates. If you can manage to live a little conservatively for a few years after residency (let's say a 250-300K house and a couple 20K cars) and focus on nailing the student loans down in 5-7 years. Then move to your 450K home and 35K cars and you have about $2500 in disposabvle income per month, without considering any other tax benefits at all. Also, you are implying that you will have 2 kids in private school immediately. If you have those two children right now that may be the case, if not, you have another $1500/month disposable income those first few years to focus on paying back the loans. By the way, many areas now have school of choice, if you can't manage to live in a greats school system with that $450K home (something I find hard to believe) you can pick a top public school system in the area to enroll your children. Bottom line, if you can manage to live a little below your means for the first 5-7 years of practice (even if you ONLY make 150K), you should live better than most during those 5-7 years and live very well in the years after if you have to have the $450K home and $70K in cars. You can paint the picture as bleak as you would like, but at 150K, you are in the top 5% of earner in the country and you can live like it if you have just a little self control early on in your career.

 

[GIGATT]

My husband and i are currently both going back to school and we live off of 17,000 a year and we have two kids...30k a year would feel like a million- or at least enough to buy health insurance! Ahhhhhhh, 6k a month huh? Sounds like our babies may be able to go to college after all!

 

[Trismegistus4]

If you can manage to live a little conservatively for a few years after residency (let's say a 250-300K house and a couple 20K cars) and focus on nailing the student loans down in 5-7 years. Then move to your 450K home and 35K cars and you have about $2500 in disposabvle income per month, without considering any other tax benefits at all.

Also, don't forget the tax reductions for having kids. I don't know what they are, but I hear they're substantial. Taking it further, why does one need to buy two brand new cars immediately, whether they cost 35K or 20K? If you own a car you used while in residency, keep driving that cheap old beater until it breaks down beyond repair, THEN replace it with a nice one if you want.

I fully support the idea that doctors deserve to make a lot of money, but I'm mystified by this attitude of entitlement to a country-club lifestyle one sometimes encounters among future doctors. While I CAN get worked up about the predicament that pediatricians and FPs are in these days, I can't get worked up about someone's huge loan repayment burden if that person is goign into a high-paying specialty. You chose to go into a profession that requires ridiculously expensive schooling, knowing what you were getting into. Who cares if you have to postpone buying a big house and nice cars for your first few years of practice?

Maybe it's that a significant proportion of the population that goes into medicine comes from very comfortable backgrounds, and to them a $450K house, two 35K cars, and private school for the kids is a bare-bones existence. I'm just a lowly public skoolz educated carpenter's son, so I really don't understand where such people are coming from. If I can afford to buy new cars when it's time to replace my old ones, live in a house that doesn't have paint peeling off the outside, and actually have some sort of retirement savings, I'll consider myself quite affluent.

 

[Tone2002]

There are some flaws in this math. 1st of all, you do not look at any tax benefits here. For the house alone, you probably get about 15,000/yr tax benefit. I am not going to get into the other tax benefits you can receive, but this one alone will likely give you $1000/month disposable income even with your estimates. If you can manage to live a little conservatively for a few years after residency (let's say a 250-300K house and a couple 20K cars) and focus on nailing the student loans down in 5-7 years. Then move to your 450K home and 35K cars and you have about $2500 in disposabvle income per month, without considering any other tax benefits at all. Also, you are implying that you will have 2 kids in private school immediately. If you have those two children right now that may be the case, if not, you have another $1500/month disposable income those first few years to focus on paying back the loans. By the way, many areas now have school of choice, if you can't manage to live in a greats school system with that $450K home (something I find hard to believe) you can pick a top public school system in the area to enroll your children. Bottom line, if you can manage to live a little below your means for the first 5-7 years of practice (even if you ONLY make 150K), you should live better than most during those 5-7 years and live very well in the years after if you have to have the $450K home and $70K in cars. You can paint the picture as bleak as you would like, but at 150K, you are in the top 5% of earner in the country and you can live like it if you have just a little self control early on in your career.

Thank you for the real reality of the situation.

 

[rishid]

My family combined income is probably around "170K". We live very comfortably and couldn't imagine having any more income. If one parent in my family was to make 120K+, it would be pretty whack. I cannot see how making 120K STARTING salary is unreasonable. My father has been working at an engineering company (2000+ employees) for 20 years and just broke 100K and he is in the top tiers of management there. I agree after 9+ years of education, we DO deserve having a higher salary benefit in conjuction of the benefit of helping others then most other professions.
-Most people don't buy a house and 2 cars in the same year, so whoever did that math is just plain stupid.
-After Medschool, you live LOW for a couple years, maybe an apartment and a lowclass car. Pay off your loans within 2 years. Then start saving and I would say after 4-5 years you could put a down payment on a house and start rolling in dough.

Learn to live frugal for a couple more years, you have done it all thru college and med school.

 

[Hudson]

Alright, everyone chill. I didn't mean to rawl everyone up. Sorry for the imperfect tax calculations. Look, my point is simply the following that 150K is not a ton of money when life gets very expensive (kids in college, saving for retirement etc.) Obviously people disagree with me. I too know plenty of people that make 150K/yr in medicine and they have told me they struggle to do the things they like/would like to do. My assertions do have a basis. It may be that you or your family lives absolutely great on 150K/yr, More power to you. I am not saying that your quality of life is low with this income. Growing up my familiy's income was less than that and we lived just fine.

One day I would like to be able to pay for all my kids education (undergrad and graduate), retire around 60yo with enough money to NOT worry about my future, take nice vacations, fish and own a boat, and have a second home. Now to some of you this may sound extravagant and outragious. Realize that there are a ton of people out there that have/do these things. I did not grow up with any of them, but would like them. I am not confident that I could do these on 150K/yr (for the rest of my life). The most important thing to remember in this conversation is to practice sound medicine and to take GOOD care of your patients. If you do this the money will come, albiet harder to come by in some specialties.

 

[Voxel]

You should be able to acheive your long term goals with slight modification of your short term goals. You need to be able to live within your means and find a specialty and geographic location that will make it work. Even on 150K, it is doable, but no one said you will be garunteed to live in a mansion and drive 2 M3s right out of residency.

From the sound of your prior posts I doubt you will have the discipline to pull off your long term goals at 150K.

 

[ortho2003]

Alright, everyone chill. I didn't mean to rawl everyone up. Sorry for the imperfect tax calculations. Look, my point is simply the following that 150K is not a ton of money when life gets very expensive (kids in college, saving for retirement etc.) Obviously people disagree with me. I too know plenty of people that make 150K/yr in medicine and they have told me they struggle to do the things they like/would like to do. My assertions do have a basis. It may be that you or your family lives absolutely great on 150K/yr, More power to you. I am not saying that your quality of life is low with this income. Growing up my familiy's income was less than that and we lived just fine.

One day I would like to be able to pay for all my kids education (undergrad and graduate), retire around 60yo with enough money to NOT worry about my future, take nice vacations, fish and own a boat, and have a second home. Now to some of you this may sound extravagant and outragious. Realize that there are a ton of people out there that have/do these things. I did not grow up with any of them, but would like them. I am not confident that I could do these on 150K/yr (for the rest of my life). The most important thing to remember in this conversation is to practice sound medicine and to take GOOD care of your patients. If you do this the money will come, albiet harder to come by in some specialties.

If you are willing to live below your means for 5-10 years of practice and avoid debt from "stuffitis", you will be able to do all the things you desire and more. Just don't rush to have the 450K house, 2nd house, boat, and cars...the only thing you should rush to do early is fund your retirement and then your childrens education. Other than that save like crazy and pay student loans.

 

[double elle]

With all the talk on this website about lifestyle...you'd think that would be incorporated into this thread. Lifestyle (in terms of work-hours required) isn't just dictated by your specialty. It's also dictated by your debt. I want to be a surgeon...lifestyle will suck. However, I can make things easier on myself by not being financially strapped to a house that is bigger than I need - or to a new vehicle every year or so. By having some financial freedom, I (hopefully) will be able to have more choices when it comes to how hard I have to work.

I've seen my non-medical school friends from college and high school go out and get jobs. They can have a salary of 30-50K (with or without a spouse) and it's the most money they've ever made...they get excited....and the American Dream can be had on credit nowadays. They buy a house in the burbs that is WAY more than they need...but they've worked hard..don't they deserve it? Sure, we've all worked hard. The biggest SUV can be bought or leased with very little money down...hmmm...wow...great deal! Before you know it, my friends have found themselves in so much debt...they have literally NO choices in life. Their only choice is to WORK to pay for these things. They start having babies...and before you know it....years have gone by and they've found absolutely NO way to save money.

When you look at the things your parents had....In my opinion, you need to think of those things as possessions earned AFTER working 30+ years...not the things you get when you first start out. I mean, a younger person who works simply does NOT have the same financial status as a slightly older person who has worked for a while and has made sound financial decisions (whether that means investing or simply saving). We tend to compare ourselves to other people who aren't our age....If Mr. Jones has a new boat - well, Mr. Jones is 15 years older than you = 15 years of more savings opportunity, 15 more years of investment opportunity... Unless you are simply independently wealthy....we are ALL going to have to watch it if we want to enjoy life.

As I said earlier - your debts will be a huge factor in your work-hours. Make responsible, sound money decisions early and those nicer things will eventually come. It's not a race. We've all worked hard and we all deserve the best. However, the fact of life is that we all can't afford the best right now.

All of this is just my opinion - I just hate to see young people get tied down so badly so early...can't take the kids on vacation, has to put simple car repairs on the credit card (that is only receiving minimum monthly payments), but has the nicest house on the block, mom gets her nails done every week, etc......... I guess it's all in your priorities..

 

[wallstreet1986]

Why do you think that these are unrealistic expectations? If you were intelligent enough to get into medical school then you were probably intelligent enough to make a hell of a lot more money doing something else. Why don't Doctors have the right to expect/desire the same lifestyle that other professionals (laywers, accountants, MBA's(from respected schools not some internet degree), Dentists, etc) have. I most certainly believe that we deserve the same incomes as other professionals. Hell, the Stryker reps that you see with the orthopedic surgeons make more than most primary care docs. CRNA's make more than or as much as pediatricians and FP docs. Too many in the medical profession let the system walk all over them.

We go through 7-10 years of training beyond college. I do not think it is unrealistic to expect a way above average lifestyle since we have way above average educations and carry way above average liability with what we do. 500K will buy you a very small house in most upscale metropolitan suburbs.te school for around 10-15k/year. Is it "unrealistic" that I'd like to live near a large city in a house large enough for every member of my family to have a room of their own. God forbid the house be in a nice safe neighborhood where other professionals live. Hell if I'm really unrealistic maybe I'll wish for a pool as well. Most public schools in larger cities provide low quality education, therfore it is often necessary to send your kids to private school. Is it "unrealistic" for me to want my children to recieve the best education that there is to offer? The same education the children of the above mentioned professionals will receive. Maybe I should just home school my kids. Oh I forgot I'll be working my ass off, doing something I truly enjoy, in attempts to fund my unrealistic house so I won't have time to home school my kids.

If you want to live in a very rural area, which most do not, then a docs salary will treat you just fine. If you want to live in or around the city and educate your children well then you will need to make a lot more than 150K/yr. It annoys the hell out of me to hear people pacify the deteriorations in the medical system. Stand up for what we deserve: fair compensation for our services, and a practice enviornment free of frivilous lawsuits. Everyone does deserve medical care, but not at the expense of Physicians income. Don't feel bad for having high expectations for you and your family. Remember we are not asking for anymore than other professionals enjoy with comparable educational experiences.

High salary expectations are NOT unreasonable. High lifestyle expectations are not inherently unreasonable-- you could certainly live better than average. But why be Boring? Why do what everyone else does and get yourself deep into debt (or not save as much as you could?)

Our culture is SO materialistic. You see lawyers and businessmen wearing suits (which they have to do for work) and a lot of them with fancy cars and the accompanying huge house. But the smart ones are usually driving a cheap car and ditch the suit as soon as they go home for more comfortable and real clothes.

The thing is to SAVE money. Even if you are making 500k a year how much better would it be to live on 40 or 50k and invest the rest-- hell speculate in land, start your own company, do your own monstrously profitable side business.

Things to do save money: 1) Luxury items I buy on EBay. Saves so much off the retail price, 2) Never buy a new car. If you insist on a new S Class get a 2000 S430 that looks like a new one for $35/40k not $70k, 3) Buy a fixer upper mansion if you insist on a mansion and look for a cheaper area to buy it in. 4) Many other things which are self explanatory.

You DO NOT have to pay $25k a year for private school. And you DO NOT have to save for your child to go to Harvard. The college costs are absolutely ridiculous. The going rate at undergrad Ivies is now $40-45k everything included. You could buy a decent house in a decent part of the country for that price.

Hudson you are a victim of affluenza. You want to be that guy with the 5000 sq ft development McMansion, send your kids to private school, drive a Brand New BMW X5 and a Porsche 911, get a Lexus LX470 for the wife, go skiing in Utah and spend summer vacation on the French Riviera. Sounds nice hunh? Most urban areas and wealthy suburbs are full of these types of people. But these people have NOTHING saved and are knee high in debt. As a doctor you have more job security but no one has to make themselves a victim of the high life. Maybe eventually you can do this, more in moderation, but really invest and save. And if you get the urge to travel remember that your parents probably rarely flew and the USA is the most beautiful and diverse country in the world. Explore your country-- by car or RV.

 

[wallstreet1986]

Whoever would spend 35k on a brand new Ford Explorer is an idiot. They are decent cars but boring and if you must spend that much on a car get something cooler. A 2000 Range Rover 4.6 HSE with Navigation can be had for 25/26k. A 1996 Mercedes-Benz E320 (which looks like the 2000 ones just older taillights but still pretty cool) is only 13k. Another yuppie car the Saab 9-5 for as little as 7/8k. And a 1987 Jaguar XJ6 (my car) or 1986 Mercedes-Benz 190E for only 3/4k. I like cars and would never spend 35k on a brand new Explorer. Explorer's aren't bad cars but honestly brand new NO WAY Yuck!

 

[Hudson]

Hudson you are a victim of affluenza. You want to be that guy with the 5000 sq ft development McMansion, send your kids to private school, drive a Brand New BMW X5 and a Porsche 911, get a Lexus LX470 for the wife, go skiing in Utah and spend summer vacation on the French Riviera. Sounds nice hunh? Most urban areas and wealthy suburbs are full of these types of people. But these people have NOTHING saved and are knee high in debt. As a doctor you have more job security but no one has to make themselves a victim of the high life. Maybe eventually you can do this, more in moderation, but really invest and save. And if you get the urge to travel remember that your parents probably rarely flew and the USA is the most beautiful and diverse country in the world. Explore your country-- by car or RV.[/QUOTE]



I appreciate your wildly inaccurate depiction of myself. What you describe above is not me and never will be. If you would like to think that I stand for these things and use this forum as an avenue to vent your frustrations then please feel free to continue doing so. You obviously harbor animosity towards the lifestyle that many wealthy americans live. I, on the contrary, do not care how other people live. Whatever others want to do with their money is their perogotive. I am not going to use a medical student/resident forum to express my opinions on how most americans choose to allocate their financial resources, and I most definitely am not going to attribute irresponsible lifestyle qualities to someone whom I have never met.

On another note I agree that many doctors become the victims of the high life, largely because they either marry the wrong kind of women/men and make poor investments. I will agree with you that more americans currently live outside of their means(high debt burden) than at any other time in our history.

This thread began as a productive discussion and has deteriorated to all of us simply voicing our opinions on how people should spend their money. What we forget is that it is a personal choice and no one is right or wrong. I am also guilty of the above. To each his own, and good luck to everybody in whatever field of medicine you choose to pursue.

 

[wallstreet1986]

Yes I harbor enormous animosity to said lifestyle. I find it ridiculous but am partly jealous because I have quite a strong materialistic drive. At least you are willing to acknowledge your problem. But you must admit that AFFLUENZA is an ENORMOUS problem in America. That's why I don't watch TV, prefer rural parts of America, and places where people are a bit more realistic. So I don't spend all my $$.

I want the highest income possible so I think I'll be a cardiologist. High incomes are great because you can spend enough to be comfortable and even a bit cool and save a whole hell of a lot.

Hudson BTW Private School is TOTALLY unnecessary. The school district where I'm from is phenomenal and we chose to live there for both that and low property taxes. We have a decent size ranch (1800 sq ft) house but many people in the township have said McMansions. Hudson-- I'll tell you what. It's boring and I find it repulsive.

With the money you'll save on sh** like private school (say for 2 kids) you could each year:
1) Go helicopter skiing at Mount Elbrus in the Caucasus Mountains and then enjoy an apres-ski tour of Paris staying at top hotels, dining at Le Tour Argent, and shopping at Galeries Lafayette.
2) Afford an extra $250k on your mortgage.
3) Lease a Ferrari 360 Modena or buy a new BMW 745LI.
4) Hire a chauffeur for 6 months.
5) Get your teeth capped, a number of plastic surgery procedures, new wardrobe from Hugo Boss.
6) Rent a TVR Cerbera 4.5, Drive through the English Countryside, Play Golf, Stay at Castles, Go Fishing in Scotland-- for 2 months
7) Hire an interior decorator and give your home a makeover.
8) Take two SilverSeas Cruises.
9) Accrue 50,000 Neiman Marcus InCircle Rewards Points. You better shop on Double Days!
10) Use an escort service 80 times in one year.

 

[Spectre27]

Yeah, RedStorm, go to law school--you'll be respected.

Actually, I was in law school and I was bored out of my mind until we started talking about our medical cases. Well, that was the most interested I had been the whole time and it wasn't even the legal aspect of it that interested me! So I abandoned law school halfway through to become a doctor. Maybe that flyer about getting a lobotomy and trying to get into medical school was right... 😱

Personally, I think $6000/month isn't a bad chunk of change, but I'm not to that point yet.

 

[Trismegistus4]

If I were to go into some super-high paying specialty and make $500k per year, I'd much rather live WAY below my means, sock a few hundred thousand away into investments each year, retire at 50, and have 35 years of gardening, fishing, traveling, reading, golfing, and spending time with my family, than have to keep slaving away until I'm 85 because I just had to have a McMansion/Lexus/private school/country club membership/exotic vacations/whatever.

 

[panumanders]

I'm from Sweden, which will explain my (for you) maybe stupid questions.

First of all, this calculation Hudson did; He wants to buy a big house and 2 cars. And send his kids to a private school... Well, maybe the woman who gave birth to these 2 kids also have an income? I didn't see that in the calculation...

Anyway, I study medicine in Denmark. I think that doctors earn a big paycheck for all the time they put into their profession. I've also gotten the impression that doctors make very good money in the US. For example, I've looked at www.salary.com and I can't find any other profession that pays as good as the different physicians? So I don't understand what all the complaining in this thread is about? The typical salary for a doctor is between 150k-300k depending on the speciality. You say that people in law and accounting and dentists makes that much more? When I look at www.salary.com i can't find any of these salaries for these jobs.. anyone wanna help me?

 

[wallstreet1986]

Your questions aren't stupid at all. 🙂 I think about those types of things all the time.

The figures for lawyers on salary.com are appalling. As a first year associate you make 125k and by 7th year 200-250k. No malpractice insurance, student loans to pay off but not as crippling as for med school and no residency. Partner may take 15 years to reach and then you can make well over 500k a year if you are good. Starting your own law firm might prove even more profitable. And we don't have crippling taxes like you do in Sweden. Totally ridiculous Sweden is if you ask me.

I have a shirt that says "Kyss meg, jeg ar svensk." Pretty stupid but just letting you know I don't hate Sweden. Saab 9-5 is cool, you have good soccer (football). I'm of German ancestry BTW.

A big house and 2 cars AREN't Enough.

What is Enough:

1) 6 bdr, 4.5 bath stone colonial house on 5 acres with 5500 sq ft and a swimming pool.
2) BMW X5 4.4i loaded on dubs with SAT NAV, Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG, Lexus GS430 gold package with rims and spoiler (look like it got frog eyes), Porsche 911 Turbo. And a Rolls.
3) One Rolex Watch and One Patek Philippe Watch.
4) 1 week ski vacation to Chamonix Mont Blanc other week to Tahiti/French Polynesia.
5) HDTV and Mega Sound System.
6) VIP seats at Basketball games.

 

[rotty1021]

Your questions aren't stupid at all. 🙂 I think about those types of things all the time.

The figures for lawyers on salary.com are appalling. As a first year associate you make 125k and by 7th year 200-250k. No malpractice insurance, student loans to pay off but not as crippling as for med school and no residency. Partner may take 15 years to reach and then you can make well over 500k a year if you are good. Starting your own law firm might prove even more profitable. And we don't have crippling taxes like you do in Sweden. Totally ridiculous Sweden is if you ask me.

I have a shirt that says "Kyss meg, jeg ar svensk." Pretty stupid but just letting you know I don't hate Sweden. Saab 9-5 is cool, you have good soccer (football). I'm of German ancestry BTW.

A big house and 2 cars AREN't Enough.

What is Enough:

1) 6 bdr, 4.5 bath stone colonial house on 5 acres with 5500 sq ft and a swimming pool.
2) BMW X5 4.4i loaded on dubs with SAT NAV, Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG, Lexus GS430 gold package with rims and spoiler (look like it got frog eyes), Porsche 911 Turbo. And a Rolls.
3) One Rolex Watch and One Patek Philippe Watch.
4) 1 week ski vacation to Chamonix Mont Blanc other week to Tahiti/French Polynesia.
5) HDTV and Mega Sound System.
6) VIP seats at Basketball games.

If that's what you want, forget medicine.

 

[Sanman]

1) 6 bdr, 4.5 bath stone colonial house on 5 acres with 5500 sq ft and a swimming pool.
2) BMW X5 4.4i loaded on dubs with SAT NAV, Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG, Lexus GS430 gold package with rims and spoiler (look like it got frog eyes), Porsche 911 Turbo. And a Rolls.
3) One Rolex Watch and One Patek Philippe Watch.
4) 1 week ski vacation to Chamonix Mont Blanc other week to Tahiti/French Polynesia.
5) HDTV and Mega Sound System.
6) VIP seats at Basketball games.

The pad sounds cool, but I'd drop the lexus from the lineup and go with the new cadi SLR and some custom rims on the AMG. Also, Patek philippe makes beautiful watches, but movado instead of rolex. And maybe a trip to milan or florence instead of tahiti. Personal opinions differ though, I guess.
😉

 

[wallstreet1986]

Yeah but they got to be loaded up on dubs. Hot rims do the trick.

Italy's nice yo but Tahiti's amazing.

 

[wallstreet1986]

If that's what you want, forget medicine.

How come man. Couldn't I be a surgeon and do that?

 

[Seaglass]

If you were never home.

 

[Amicus]

A big house and 2 cars AREN't Enough.

What is Enough:

1) 6 bdr, 4.5 bath stone colonial house on 5 acres with 5500 sq ft and a swimming pool.
2) BMW X5 4.4i loaded on dubs with SAT NAV, Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG, Lexus GS430 gold package with rims and spoiler (look like it got frog eyes), Porsche 911 Turbo. And a Rolls.
3) One Rolex Watch and One Patek Philippe Watch.
4) 1 week ski vacation to Chamonix Mont Blanc other week to Tahiti/French Polynesia.
5) HDTV and Mega Sound System.
6) VIP seats at Basketball games.

You could do that without to much hassle if you are smart and dont get married and pop out kids too soon. You will need to be decent in bussiness and get into a surgical specialty. And will need to run your own practice, alone or with a person you trust. You could cover that life easily. I know many who do. Pay for a good accountant and pay for your house and a car or two with business dollars, not personal income. You can pay for many many things with pre-tax dollars if you own or co-own your own practice. It makes salary as a number meaningless because your standard of living is not really limited by that amount.