Well, I have read a lot of posts about "salary declining." And, I respect doctors, and understand everyone wants to be payed the most they can. But...most doctors get payed $150,000+/year. Surgeons get payed $200,000/ year plus, most times over $300,000/ year. So, for right now, it still is good to be a doctor. Where else would you get this kind of money? Certainly not engineering, or research of various fields (biology, chemistry, etc.). Certinaly if you are a surgeon, you can't be struggling...Certianly even in the next 30 years surgeons won't be making less than $150,000, right? So, whats the big deal? I don't get why doctors are complaining.
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Salary Again...sigh
Started by collegefreak12
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Maybe its the 8+ years of school without earning a salary (or a pittance of one); the lack of having anything while your college friends are buying houses, cars, etc and starting their lives; the fact you have put exactly ZERO dollars towards your retirement (which puts you way far behind, even if you make $200K/yr when you finish residency); slaving away for $35-55K/yr during residency; and paying off anywhere from $100-$300k of debt from undergrad and med school while trying to start a family, buy a house that doesn't resemble a shack, and get a practice going --all while trying not to get your @ss sued.
No sir. Most doctors don't make 150K+ as we speak, they make less. What is the big deal? The word DECLINING. Just in case you don't understand the meaning of the word decline, let me give you some alternative words-> reducing, thining out, falling, eroding, vanishing, tumbling. Any of those words will describe what has been happening and will happen to physician income.
You add reducing medicare reimbursements, rising malpractice premiums, the determination of politicians to have doctors pay for Universal healthcare and you can pretty much see how physicians income is heading to the crappers in the future.
You add reducing medicare reimbursements, rising malpractice premiums, the determination of politicians to have doctors pay for Universal healthcare and you can pretty much see how physicians income is heading to the crappers in the future.
Absolutely right. Except most doctors do make 150k+. That's the only problem I have with your post!
It's not how much you make. It is what you have to give of yourself to make that amount. What has happened is that docs have had to do more and more, work harder and harder, and take more **** for that 150 K per year and in time, they will not be able to keep up with the increasing demands on them and their salaries will fall. It's exactly like the response of the heart to additional stress. It will compensate initially, but eventually fails if the stress is not removed or worse, if it continues to increase.
Are you kidding me? Seriously? Whatever...
There's always room to complain. Even billionaires complain. And you can always struggle and live beyond your means. But anyone who makes $100k per year has a reasonable amount of money to live comfortably, no matter what people say, it just depends on your definition of the term "comfort."
You can either listen to Chicken Little or the guy with the rose colored glasses, both are extremist. Doctors are still going to get paid well, and most are going to have high loans to pay off. People who go into it for reasons other than money are most likely to have a higher satisfaction with their career, and people who don't are going to be more likely to complain.
Doctors do, however, have to make sure that if their salaries go down it is not because some dip**** businessman is siphoning off their income to go to their "investments" and profit sharing. A lot of people go into medicine without any significant consideration of financial issues and can get taken advantage of by opportunist scumbags.
You can either listen to Chicken Little or the guy with the rose colored glasses, both are extremist. Doctors are still going to get paid well, and most are going to have high loans to pay off. People who go into it for reasons other than money are most likely to have a higher satisfaction with their career, and people who don't are going to be more likely to complain.
Doctors do, however, have to make sure that if their salaries go down it is not because some dip**** businessman is siphoning off their income to go to their "investments" and profit sharing. A lot of people go into medicine without any significant consideration of financial issues and can get taken advantage of by opportunist scumbags.
Does this include the lawyers and legislators who sue us, reduce our reimbursement, and then tax us for "universal healthcare?"
Interesting...but then why is it that you don't hear of doctors challenging the system on TV. Or of doctors speaking up against these politicians, fighting for their salary? Why is it jus that people let their anger out here, and tell how people SHOULD do it, but no one does?
Yaah, I will not even lie to you, this is my ultimate plan. You can call me a scumbag, but I have a choice of either sticking it out with colleagues more than willing to sacrifice my well-being in the name of altruism, or jump to the other side of things and be the one recieving the benefits of those sacrifices. I prefer the later, and that is why I held off medschool for 2 years and spent the time pursuing an MBA while researching the business of medicine. In the words of one of my mentors "whenever you deal with doctors, they might whine, but you almost always come out ahead".
There are numerous medical advocacy groups who are fighting tooth and nail in support of physicians rights and reimbursement. Perhaps the global and uneducated opinion of the OP echoes the perspective of the American public towards physicians. After all, we are all wealthy fat cats who prey on our patients, perform unneccesary procedures, and are guilty of malpractice as soon as we ask even a slightly uncomfortable question, right?
Seriously - physicians are not newsworthy unless they have killed someone, dispensed narcotics, or been found guilty in a major lawsuit. Ask yourself how often you hear about declining physician reimbursement (from any perspective), physician shortages, or topics other than malpractice litigation in the mainstream news. Then ask yourself what you hear about malpractice litigation and reform, and from who's perspective it is being spun towards...
Lawyers are much worse, because they maintain the illusion of "fighting for the people" or their client. I saw an ad on tv here lately by Geoffrey Fieger who is a multimillionaire trial lawyer like John Edwards and the ad was about how trial lawyers are our last line of defense against people trying to take advantage of us (like big business and politicians). Bull****. We need more protection against trial lawyers than we do against big business. At least big business has shareholders to answer to.
I am not saying to be altruistic at all costs and suffer the consequences. What I said was that many people go into medicine not because of money or personal glory but because they care more about other things in their career, and the money is secondary and enough for them to be satisfied. I realize this is anathema to many individuals for whom $ is king, but it is the truth. And if it is true that your career plan is to take advantage of hard working doctors then fine, but don't expect a lot of respect. You will perhaps interpret it as "jealousy," when it generally isn't jealousy at all, however.
What I also said was that doctors should NOT allow themselves to be taken advantage of when it comes to salary and financial reward, but neither should they allow patients to be taken advantage of either. Many people (doctors and businessmen) use the medical system to enrich themselves personally, often based on the unrewarded work of others. It isn't totally right, but they also often assume more risk than the unrewarded - you can't get reward without risk.
And yes, I find it personally objectionable that businesspeople (including doctors with business sense) profit hugely by taking advantage of others. That's part of our country though, and part of every field. Not everyone has the same moral compass or sense of obligation to others (or willingness to take risks, for that matter). I don't think I do either, my motives are selfish for their own reasons too. I just have different priorities than $.
To the average person, the doctor making $110,000 and working 60-70 hours a week is someone to be jealous of, not to be pitied. As med school graduates, we have other concerns and other issues that are not so simplistic, of course, but the public at large sees things in soundbytes and black and white.
Its a roller coaster ride. Does anyone think that since the salaries are dropping, less people will become doctors in the next 20 years? If this is so, then salaries can go back up again (supply and demand).
No, for these two reasons.
-There is an endless supply of premeds willing like some would say to "eat poop hotdog" for a crack at medschool.
-The forces pushing physicians income downwards are not completely economic(they are mostly political).
Sorry to say, barring some sort of improbable physician revolt, this train seems to be headed in only one direction.
I agree. I don't see many people out villifying the terminated CEO with a multi-million dollar severance package or the many "ENRON executives" of the world who make off with people's pensions/retirement funds. It is hard to continue to be altruistic when the very people you want to help would love to pull the rug out from under you (due to jealousy/envy/whatever).
Americans consistently overpay big business, special interests, and entertainment artists (athletes, singers) then gripe and complain when it comes to spending for their health. They can afford a weekly carton of cigarettes/case of beer, spinning rims, take-out everynight and whatever other vice they have, but then they can't "AFFORD" their $5.00 prescription (on the indigent med program) for meds the pharmaceutical company charges $500.00 for.
As others have stated...after you invest a quarter of a million dollars in your education, 8 years devoted to studying, 4 years of low-earning (salary earned to hours worked) residency/apprenticeship, opening one's practice, malpractice issues .... is it TOO MUCH to ask for adequate compensation. Afterall, we only deal with Health, Well-being, Life and Death issues. When did all of this (one's life work/investments) get reduced to what ELLEN POMPEO makes for filming one episode of Gray's Anatomy.
Yeah, I wish I was earning what those TV doctors do
Seriously - the public image of physicians and income really needs a dose of reality. I try to explain to even my family members how much my malpractice, lower reimbursement, and student loans and they lose me as soon as I say physician income. Seriously - blank faces, no emotion. Then they change the subject...
Seriously - the public image of physicians and income really needs a dose of reality. I try to explain to even my family members how much my malpractice, lower reimbursement, and student loans and they lose me as soon as I say physician income. Seriously - blank faces, no emotion. Then they change the subject...
Yeah, I wish I was earning what those TV doctors do
Exactly! She makes $200,000 an episode for PLAYING a doctor on TV. Hello! That does not translate to real-life.
I think it is rare to find family and friends who can truly recognize your sacrifice/investment (overhead costs, licensing fees, attorney costs, insurance premiums, student loan payments and please don't forget the tax man...etc.) into your craft. We now have a society where you can be famous for having NO TALENT after having made NO SACRIFICE and you wonder why people don't care that we spent 8+ years out of our life to make something of ourselves. Who knows the name of the last Nobel Prize winner (crickets chirping)...Who knows why Paris was last arrested; what Rehab is Britney at; Who is Anna Nicole's baby's daddy (the whole world talks and speculates)?
It might be remotely understandable if the consequences of declining physician income was improved healthcare for society. That is not the case however, healthcare is getting worse and our Pharmaceutical companies, HMOs, and insurance companies are all posting record profits.
You dont hear doctors on TV because they are WORKING.
And don't forget the most spectacular irony of all...those same stars can go on TV and preach to us how we ALL must sacrafice for the uninsured.
So, which of the current presidential candidates has the best "healthcare policy?" I haven't really had time to pay attention to those idiots lately, but I will make sure I will vote for the one with the best attitute towards physicians when time comes around.
Believe it or not, it is the great enemy-> John Edwards. Actually he is the only one with a set healthcare plan thus far. He actually used the words "raise taxes" which is in line with reality.
I looked John Edwards up, thanks to you. So apparently, he is in favor of a universal healthcare system, but one where everyone chips in to pay for it. Not tax cuts for people with salaries of $200,000 and above. So this means he wants everyone to pay, not just physicians. Hopefully more people will think this way 😛.
So are you a licensed physician yet? If so I would like to hire you. I'll worry about the details of billing, collections and insurance. I'll pay you your $110,000 per year. Deal?
FYI...in case anyone is interested. John Edwards may have a good stance on healthcare BUT he made his millions SUING physicians in Cerebral Palsy cases.
hence the "great enemy" allusion...
Just wanted to clarify in case someone did not have their coffee this AM.
I've been away from the boards a long time and don't know whether He was ever discussed or not.
The fact that the man is a piece of **** doesn't necessarily mean his plan for healthcare is better or worse than one proposed by a politician who is not a piece of ****.
Physicians, of all people, should be smart and objective enough to support or criticize a plan based on its merits and flaws. The RDR[1] of the politician selling the plan is not relevant.
[1] Relative Douchebaggery Ratio
In response to your eloquent post: I personally like some of his points on healthcare, but considering he built his law practice on suing physicians using JUNKSCIENCE and emotional testimony of families with children with CP ...I truly don't see him standing up for minimizing frivolous lawsuits and placing caps on malpractice cases. Maybe I'm wrong, but history is a great predictor of not only human behavior, but one's ideals and morals. He did his JOB as a Lawyer and I applaud that his effort won for his clients, but at what cost and based on WHAT TRUTH?
I educate myself on the issues and those that are important to my practice. I also am smart enough to know that MONEY (100 MILLION DOLLARS) clouds judgement and can be a great persuader of people regardless of what the merit/flaws of the subject at hand may be.
Doctors should be paid high salaries because 1.) They have high debt burdens 2.) They are targets of malpractice suits that are decided by uneducated populace that go for lines like "if it does not fit you must aquit" 3.) High salaries are needed to bring in the most capable people as evidenced by the flock of star med students to specialties with high salaries 4.) Having spent so much time in school accumlating debt they are behind their peers in building investment and retirement money during prime working years 5.) If they get sick they need something to fall back on with all the debt to provide for their families 6.) If they don't get the money they earned it is going to line the pockets of HMOs in the business of making a living by skimming off as much money as they can get away with. 8.) The dentites get paid equal or more in many cases with no residency slave labor years
I agree.
None of this has anything to do with it. Doctors should get paid high salaries because they are worth it.
Really, tell me more unless you have something better to do then don't worry about it. As for the other post about nothing to do with it I'll just put that on in the category of people who like to get online and argue fine points much to the detriment of actual education and productive time.
Eh, I have the time but you should really hear it from people actually doing Dental Residencies rather than an "outsider" like me.
Hence, I invite you to check out the SDN Dental Residency Forum:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=138
Heh. According to what my likely future employer has said, I will be making about $75,000 after I graduate residency. Now, if I wanted to stay academic and take inpatient call, have quotas, research/teaching responsibilities and other such nastiness, I could increase that to $120,000. If I wanted to move to the middle of nowhere, I could increase that to $150,000. But given that I want to be reasonably happy, $75,000 it is. And even that's with making sacrifices. What I really want to do is a lot of therapy. The $75,000 figure is doing mostly med checks with a few therapy cases. If I were going to do what I really want to do, I would be making even less. And that's what I WOULD do . . . if I didn't have over $200,000 in loans to pay back.
That's 75k Before taxes?
Do you believe that you will enjoy your work enough to deal with the major financial void you have fallen into after med school?
Sorry, but thats just miserable. The plumber who unclogged my toilet last week makes alot more than that, and I'd be hard pressed to make a call on who deals with more ****. 4 years undergrad (slogging mercilessly to impress adcomms) + 4 years med. school ( accrueing massive debt watching your twenties pass you by) + 4 years residency (indentured servitude w/ side portions of eroded self-esteem and chronic sleep deprivation) = $75,000?😱 Even if you land your dream job, I would argue that this is pittance, an insult to your years of sacrifice and your acquired training. Perhaps you're just a bigger person than me. I wish you luck.
4 years undergrad (slogging mercilessly to impress adcomms) + 4 years med. school ( accrueing massive debt watching your twenties pass you by) + 4 years residency (indentured servitude w/ side portions of eroded self-esteem and chronic sleep deprivation) = $75,000?😱 Even if you land your dream job, I would argue that this is pittance, an insult to your years of sacrifice and your acquired training. Perhaps you're just a bigger person than me. I wish you luck.
Yea I have friends who were making more then that ++ cool benefits/perqs at awesome places to work, right out of college. And thats working 40 hrs a week.
Hmmm....I beg to differ, my husbands and my salary have reached the coveted 6 figures, and we are living in a one bedroom condo and have two cars, the "newest" of which is a 2000 and neither of them have less than 110k miles on them and we still can't afford a: to go on vacations, even down the street at the local beach hotel, b: get a new car which, as you can see, we desperately need, c: a savings, d: a retirement, IRA, CD or anything of the sort, e: any, god forbid, medical emergencies, f: anything other than basic necessities with the occasional 'out to dinner and a movie (matinee of course!)' date.
So, I don't know where you are getting this, '100k is comfortable' crap from. OK, yeah, maybe if you were single, had no bills and lived in Wyoming. I could see that.
-PlAnEjaNe
p.s. we OWN the condo, not rent, so believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
Cali is very expensive but 100k is very comfortable if you do not waste money on the "wants" of life. Not everyone is good with money.
Are you implying that we are bad with money?? I am rather insulted by that..gas here is $3.55 for unleaded, plus my property tax for the year is probably more than what most people pay for their entire year's rent/mortgage. So yeah, it's not that we are 'bad' with money, it's just that the cost of living is astronomical in orange county, california (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/7/Rank_1.html) my zip code is 92656...see all the 9265's in there? that's my 'hood'...So please, next time you want to insult someone's 'money management' make sure that the average cost of a home in their zip code doesn't exceed 500k. Thanks.
-PlAnEjaNe
PlaneJane: I wouldn't stress yourself out trying to explain yourself or your money managing skills to most people in the realm of medicine who still think $100k or $150k a year is a lot of money. People forget about inflation, rising wages in other professions, the weaker US dollar etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes up with some type of solution: 'so move.' Yea to where? Tumbleweed, Oklahoma, or Hicksville, Idaho? LOL
I am not sure what you are trying to justify?
But you choose to live there, you CAN live there, if you go ANYWHERE else other than the most affluent county in all of the states... I am sure you could begin to afford that new car. (choosing an affordable location/lifestyle is part of money management skills...)
Please don't compare yourself to people who REALLY don't have any money-- living shack-aparetments, working their asses off at 3-4 min. wage jobs, trying to get a degree, and raise their kids... and still barely making it.
A more affordable location, in terms of your income? perhaps?
many choose not to complete a residency, and if they do, it is usually 1 year in length. however, although dentists have 'less' of a path to money, their tuition is usually much greater than that of med school.
Wrong. You do realize that the federal government's budget is 2.7 Trillion dollars a year? bridges to nowhere, peanut farms, unnecessary subsidies, and I could go on and on. how did we get to the point where we blindly accept that our government NEEDS to spend this much every year?
There is so much waste in the system right now that we should be removing everyone of these *****s from office to put people in who actually have a little sense of moderation.
