Salary as a starting associate

[dentalpenn]

So it is that time of the year for senior dental students to go out and look fro a job. I wanted to get input about STARTING salries for a dentist, I know there are numerous threads of the average for each specialty, and I know it depends on where you live but I am talking about what is a fair starting wage for a dentist or specialist just so we dont get ripped off.

I have heard wildly diffrent starting salaries for a dentist.

For a GP:
I have heard that strating is between 300-400 dollars a day is pretty average.

For a orthodontist:
I have heard 600-700 dollars a day average, but I have also heard of up to 1000 dollars a day.

For an Endodontist
I have heard anywhere from 600-1200 a day i guess depending on volume, i find 1200 dollars a day very hard to believe though!

These are number that I have heard over the years, any input especially from current people who are associates would be greatly appreciated

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[DrJeff]

So it is that time of the year for senior dental students to go out and look fro a job. I wanted to get input about STARTING salries for a dentist, I know there are numerous threads of the average for each specialty, and I know it depends on where you live but I am talking about what is a fair starting wage for a dentist or specialist just so we dont get ripped off.

I have heard wildly diffrent starting salaries for a dentist.

For a GP:
I have heard that strating is between 300-400 dollars a day is pretty average.

For a orthodontist:
I have heard 600-700 dollars a day average, but I have also heard of up to 1000 dollars a day.

For an Endodontist
I have heard anywhere from 600-1200 a day i guess depending on volume, i find 1200 dollars a day very hard to believe though!

These are number that I have heard over the years, any input especially from current people who are associates would be greatly appreciated

It's very geographically diverse, big metropolitan areas with higher costsof living and higher fees = more per day. A GP in a big city may get $6-700 per day depending on volume. In a small rural area, you can expect atleast the 3-400 a day, and if a practice can't pay you atleast that per day either a) they don't have the patient volume to support you, or b) the senior dentist is making a ton of $$ off you. A better rule of thumb is that you should be getting somewhere around 35% of your production as your pay(if you have to pay things like lab fees, etc you should be getting a higher percentage).

Big thing to watch out for as your looking for a practice, and a way that a senior dentist will end up making more $$ off you than it appears. If your going to join a practice, they senior dentist should show you the books with the production and overhead figures(if he/she won't you don't want anything to do with that practice because you're NOT being paid what you're worth). The senior dentist will show you what the overhead percentage figure is (lets say 60% for an average number). Now if the senior dentist(s) don't have to add any additional operatories for you, the amount of overhead you add to the practice will be LESS than the total overhead. Think of it this way, if the practice produces $1,000,000 a year and the overhead is 60%(600,000) and if they don't have to build an additions to the office, then your over head may be the cost of an assistant, say $25,000 plus materials for you say another $25,000, lab fees say another $15,000 some advertising for you say $2,000 and maybe some new instruments for you say $10,000. So the cost to you would be say $75,000 in additional fees, then if you produce $250,000 (a realistic number if not a bit low), the senior docs off you would be getting the $250,000 - $75,000 = $175,000. Then if they pay you say $100,000, they get roughly that $75,000 in their pockets(true they have to pay some taxes on you, and you'll add to the electric bill a bit, but worst case scenario is they'd still clear $50,000 off of you, all the while saying that the overhead for you is the same 60% as for them. Be carefull of associateships where the senior docs tell you that they're "not making any money off you"

As for specialty programs, for an ortho associate, again location is everything. I am running this by my orthodontist wife as I type and off the top of her head based upon what her ortho friends have told her and from personal experience anywhere for $500 to $1000 a day is reasonable to expect as a starting per diem.

As for an endodontist, a high of $1200 is very believable. Think of it this way, if the endodontist does 4 molars in 1 day at $1000 a tooth (both very believable numbers) thats $4000 in production and the $1200 is only 30% production. BTW, endo overhead tends to be lower than a GP's overhead due to a much smaller quantity of instruments/materials to function on a daily basis.

Now that I've shed some light to you folks on some of the "tricks of the trade" about hiring an associate, I could never expect/be able to make a dime off any of you if you came to join into my practice in a few years when we'll likely need a 3rd dentist

 

[lnn2]

Now that I've shed some light to you folks on some of the "tricks of the trade" about hiring an associate, I could never expect/be able to make a dime off any of you if you came to join into my practice in a few years when we'll likely need a 3rd dentist

I don't believe you! I guess I'll just stick to this advice

Be carefull of associateships where the senior docs tell you that they're "not making any money off you"

Thanks for shedding some light regarding this topic! I'll definitely need it in next month when searching for a job!

 

[gryffindor]

The rate I seem to have encountered in my job hunt for being a slave dentist here in New York City is $400/day. One owner dentist was willing to offer 50% of collection, but the practice had no support staff - you do all of your own booking, assisting, collecting, etc.

 

[organichemistry]

whoa. ortho specialist taking home $1,000 a day?

how can dentists afford to work 4 days
hell, with that kind of money, how can they afford to even take a lunch break!

 

[ScubaDr2B]

I am currently working in an office as a collections/insurance type person. I will be starting dental school this fall. But over the past year of working I have learned a ton about the business side of dentistry (which I formerly knew nothing at all about). The practice I work in produced over 1mil last year, anyway, I have gotten to be really good friends with the associate in our office, she has been out of school 3 years and she is making 35% of her collections. She said that between 35 and 40% is about the going rate. We have also talked about when she worked at Jefferson Dental, (like Monarch, or Castle) clinic dentistry, she said she would take home between 10-20k a month. One more thing that you have to think about when working for a dentist in private practice is that a lot of senior dentists will want you to be an independent contractor. This is not good. The associate that I speak of is an IC, she pays 1/2 of her pay check to uncle sam every month.

Ok now my opinion. If you are looking to make a lot of money and sharpen your skills right out of school I would say to work for a clinic, ie monarch, castle, jefferson (I'm sure there are more). You will be put in a situation where you will be able to do a ton of clinical work and make a nice pay check for it, working 6 days a week. If you are looking to just get buy and pay on some bills but not really carve away your student loan debt you can work as an associate for 4 days a week and make a considerable amount less.


U of Buffalo School of Dental Medicine Class of 2009

 

[ItsGavinC]

... but the practice had no support staff - you do all of your own booking, assisting, collecting, etc.

Ouch. Doable, but ouch.

 

[ItsGavinC]

We have also talked about when she worked at Jefferson Dental, (like Monarch, or Castle) clinic dentistry, she said she would take home between 10-20k a month.

20k/month as an associate? Geez, of course, those mills will probably work you into the ground for that amount.

 

[gryffindor]

Ouch. Doable, but ouch.

I was advised to not take the offer. It might have been a good way to build a patient following, but I think I am going to scream if I have to continue doing operative on maxillary teeth without an assistant next year. I've probably forgotten how to use indirect vision at this point. Also, the practice didn't have an automatic film processor - all films are hand dipped. Am I to assume a processor is considered a luxury rather than a necessity? I don't know, but the whole thing sounded fishy to me.

 

[ScubaDr2B]

20k/month as an associate? Geez, of course, those mills will probably work you into the ground for that amount.

20k was the most she took home in a month, it was a really busy December, said she averaged about 12-15k during normal months.




U of Buffalo School of Dental Medicine Class of 2009

 

[aphistis]

20k/month as an associate? Geez, of course, those mills will probably work you into the ground for that amount.

Let's not forget how relative "being worked into the ground" is. Working in a dental clinic six days a week, grossing $240,000, hardly amounts to sweatshop conditions.

 

[lnn2]

Let's not forget how relative "being worked into the ground" is. Working in a dental clinic six days a week, grossing $240,000, hardly amounts to sweatshop conditions.

For that kind of money, I'd even mop the floor........for free!

 

[organichemistry]

making that much money at age 26 or 27 absolutely floors me.
heck, even making 150,000 at that age, to me, is unbelievable.

within 2 years i could pay off student debt of $70,000, and own a $150,000 home. no mortgage payments.

hmmm. with no student debt and no house note, year #3 could get exciting

 

[Rezdawg]

wow, those are some nice numbers as an associate. I wouldnt mind getting my hand in some of that. Afterall, I will need all the help I can get after d-school rips me for every ounce of money that I dont have.

Castle Dental, here I come!!!

 

[mdsn]

I was advised to not take the offer. It might have been a good way to build a patient following, but I think I am going to scream if I have to continue doing operative on maxillary teeth without an assistant next year. I've probably forgotten how to use indirect vision at this point. Also, the practice didn't have an automatic film processor - all films are hand dipped. Am I to assume a processor is considered a luxury rather than a necessity? I don't know, but the whole thing sounded fishy to me.

y not just buy a pracice?

 

[frogger33]

So I know this question will sound pretty stupid to some of you, but what exactly is a dental clinic?? Is it just a big corporate practice, is it for low-income people, is it a low-cost type place, etc...??

Also, that seems like LOTS of money to be making, are the hours really long or something?

Sorry, I do not know anything about this kind of stuff yet

 

[Da ObtURator]

making that much money at age 26 or 27 absolutely floors me.
heck, even making 150,000 at that age, to me, is unbelievable.

within 2 years i could pay off student debt of $70,000, and own a $150,000 home. no mortgage payments.

hmmm. with no student debt and no house note, year #3 could get exciting

Just wondering.. what does a home for $150,000 look like these days?? did you mean 1,500,000? because in some places of this country, like so cali, that is what a "Nice" home fetches.

 

[organichemistry]

Just wondering.. what does a home for $150,000 look like these days?? did you mean 1,500,000? because in some places of this country, like so cali, that is what a "Nice" home fetches.

heh; a brand new 2 bedroom 2 bathroom home with everything a 20 something without a large family could need ("graden" home, i suppose) in the suburbs of birmingham alabama can be had for $200,000. Then 5 or 10 years down the line, maybe build that home-of-my-dreams for my kids to grow up in

 

[ItsGavinC]

Let's not forget how relative "being worked into the ground" is. Working in a dental clinic six days a week, grossing $240,000, hardly amounts to sweatshop conditions.

No, and that wasn't what I was getting at exactly. My fault in poor phrasing. Still those "dental mills" don't provide the atmosphere that many of us are seeking--and I'm not referring to work hours.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Am I to assume a processor is considered a luxury rather than a necessity? I don't know, but the whole thing sounded fishy to me.

Actually, at this point, I'm considering digital to be a necessity. I can't tell you how nice digital is (although I'm sure you've probably experienced it firsthand).

Good call on not taking that position.

 

[ItsGavinC]

within 2 years i could pay off student debt of $70,000, and own a $150,000 home. no mortgage payments.

Yeah, but a 150k home won't get you far in most parts of the country. But you're certainly on the right track. You could at least double that house price and easily make mortage payments.

 

[ItsGavinC]

So I know this question will sound pretty stupid to some of you, but what exactly is a dental clinic?? Is it just a big corporate practice, is it for low-income people, is it a low-cost type place, etc...??

Also, that seems like LOTS of money to be making, are the hours really long or something?

Well, the term "dental clinic" can be used for any of those above descriptions. What we're referring to in this thread is a big corporate practice that typically employees new grads or those out of school less than 3-4 years.

It provides them with plenty of patients and takes care of most everything, so the grads really just do the work. Of course, the owners or corporation make a pretty penny, but the volume done in these clinics is so high that the grads get a nice dime without having any of the headaches of owning a practice.

For many participation in these types of corporate clinics is a great way to build speed and earn money to pay down some debt load. Most leave after several years for greener pastures.

 

[frogger33]

Well, the term "dental clinic" can be used for any of those above descriptions. What we're referring to in this thread is a big corporate practice that typically employees new grads or those out of school less than 3-4 years.

It provides them with plenty of patients and takes care of most everything, so the grads really just do the work. Of course, the owners or corporation make a pretty penny, but the volume done in these clinics is so high that the grads get a nice dime without having any of the headaches of owning a practice.

For many participation in these types of corporate clinics is a great way to build speed and earn money to pay down some debt load. Most leave after several years for greener pastures.

Thanks for the info. It seems like a nice deal for someone wanting more experience. I assume many people go into this type of practice for a year or two instead of doing a general residency to gain that extra experience.

 

[organichemistry]

man... who says $150,000 can't buy a nice starter home? ya'll must be living in the wrong parts of the country

See how far it can go?

Not the home I would end up in... but for just me, my wife, and maybe 1 young child... it's perfect! gives me plenty of time to save up for that real nice home (especially since i'll be sure to marry an orthopedic surgeon, or maybe a neurosurgeon).

 

[organichemistry]

by the way, to whoever was asking about dental clinics... think of it as an optional residency for a general dentist.

work long hours (50-60 a week ain't bad compared to 80 or more in a medical residency) and make $100,000 a year. sure beats making $40,000 as a medical resident, imo!

 

[Fullosseousflap]

I am currently working in an office as a collections/insurance type person. I will be starting dental school this fall. But over the past year of working I have learned a ton about the business side of dentistry (which I formerly knew nothing at all about). The practice I work in produced over 1mil last year, anyway, I have gotten to be really good friends with the associate in our office, she has been out of school 3 years and she is making 35% of her collections. She said that between 35 and 40% is about the going rate. We have also talked about when she worked at Jefferson Dental, (like Monarch, or Castle) clinic dentistry, she said she would take home between 10-20k a month. One more thing that you have to think about when working for a dentist in private practice is that a lot of senior dentists will want you to be an independent contractor. This is not good. The associate that I speak of is an IC, she pays 1/2 of her pay check to uncle sam every month.

Ok now my opinion. If you are looking to make a lot of money and sharpen your skills right out of school I would say to work for a clinic, ie monarch, castle, jefferson (I'm sure there are more). You will be put in a situation where you will be able to do a ton of clinical work and make a nice pay check for it, working 6 days a week. If you are looking to just get buy and pay on some bills but not really carve away your student loan debt you can work as an associate for 4 days a week and make a considerable amount less.


U of Buffalo School of Dental Medicine Class of 2009

From my experience in California and the Midwest the numbers mentioned here are incorrect.

For example, most corporate dental practices in California will hire you only after 3-5 years of experience and will pay you either a flat rate of $400-650/day or a collection rate of 25% - independent contractor status.

In Indiana or Illinois as a new graduate Heartland Dental pays a guarantee of $80-100K per year as an employee (mega taxes!) and a bonus percentage (if you can make it!).

You can make more if you wish to hustle but the fastest way to the golden path is your own practice.

 

[mdsn]

From my experience in California and the Midwest the numbers mentioned here are incorrect.

For example, most corporate dental practices in California will hire you only after 3-5 years of experience and will pay you either a flat rate of $400-650/day or a collection rate of 25% - independent contractor status.

In Indiana or Illinois as a new graduate Heartland Dental pays a guarantee of $80-100K per year as an employee (mega taxes!) and a bonus percentage (if you can make it!).

You can make more if you wish to hustle but the fastest way to the golden path is your own practice.

does anyone plan on buying a dental practice straight out of school?

 

[organichemistry]

does anyone plan on buying a dental practice straight out of school?

what? you mean you don't have half a million dollars in the bank the day you graduate?

 

[Fullosseousflap]

what? you mean you don't have half a million dollars in the bank the day you graduate?

Some do.

Some have family money.

Some take over their father's/uncle's practice.

And it does not take $500,000 to start your own practice or buy a small established one.

 

[gtl4f]

Some do.

Some have family money.

Some take over their father's/uncle's practice.

And it does not take $500,000 to start your own practice or buy a small established one.

How come you didn't say mother's/aunt's practice? Haha just messing with you! Actually if I'm lucky enough to get into dental school, I don't plan on specializing. I'm going to come out, work for my uncle and eventually take over my uncle's business.

 

[Rezdawg]

man... who says $150,000 can't buy a nice starter home? ya'll must be living in the wrong parts of the country

Yeah, but thats in Alabama. Who wants to live there?

 

[organichemistry]

Yeah, but thats in Alabama. Who wants to live there?

careful, careful... you are about to touch a nerve. but sure, i can take a little ribbing. just remember... i'm 4 hours from the beach, 4 hours from the mountains, and get to enjoy 6-8 months of warm weather a year!

 

[Mr. So-So]

I only read the first post on this thread, but..

I'd shoot for a $400 min and percentage of production.
Busier offices mean you could do well with 25% and gets loads of reps. slower foo-foo offices, get 35% plus.
the lowest min "salary" I've seen offered is $85,000. The most daily min I've seen on interviews was $140,000 with 30% of collections. $96,000 (~2000/week) is more common for a new grad.

That said, I would not waste my time associating if your eventual goal is ownership. Buy some old guy out or do your research and open up a new start-up.

So it is that time of the year for senior dental students to go out and look fro a job. I wanted to get input about STARTING salries for a dentist, I know there are numerous threads of the average for each specialty, and I know it depends on where you live but I am talking about what is a fair starting wage for a dentist or specialist just so we dont get ripped off.

I have heard wildly diffrent starting salaries for a dentist.

For a GP:
I have heard that strating is between 300-400 dollars a day is pretty average.

For a orthodontist:
I have heard 600-700 dollars a day average, but I have also heard of up to 1000 dollars a day.

For an Endodontist
I have heard anywhere from 600-1200 a day i guess depending on volume, i find 1200 dollars a day very hard to believe though!

These are number that I have heard over the years, any input especially from current people who are associates would be greatly appreciated

 

[ScubaDr2B]

From my experience in California and the Midwest the numbers mentioned here are incorrect.

For example, most corporate dental practices in California will hire you only after 3-5 years of experience and will pay you either a flat rate of $400-650/day or a collection rate of 25% - independent contractor status.

In Indiana or Illinois as a new graduate Heartland Dental pays a guarantee of $80-100K per year as an employee (mega taxes!) and a bonus percentage (if you can make it!).

You can make more if you wish to hustle but the fastest way to the golden path is your own practice.

The numbers that I speak of were what my associate made here in Dallas for the past two years. This is the ad that is in the Dallas Morning News every Sunday. I copied it directly from the classifieds.

DENTISTS Employees ownership. Fee for service only. 10 locations, FT 1yr, New mgmt + guarantees Associates = $10,000 Dent Directors = $12,000 Jefferson Dental Clinics Call 972-444-8888 ...

Published 04/10/2005 - 04/24/2005

The doctor that is currently working for us said that these numbers vary depending on the amount of patients you see in your 60-70 hour week. And yes, as an associate in a private practice you do make considerable less. Now the doctor I speak of that works in the office I work in is actually in the office about 30-35 hours a week. It's just how hard you want to work and how fast you want to pay off student loans.

U of Buffalo School of Dental Medicine Class of 2009

 

[ScubaDr2B]

does anyone plan on buying a dental practice straight out of school?

I plan on "hanging a shingle" as I have heard before. I don't want to work for someone else. I have been very fortunate to work in the front office of a busy practice for the last year and can pretty much do anything in the front. (at least the patient side of business) I think; from my experience with new graduates they don't get the business training in school they need to open a practice fresh out of school. If you would have asked me this question a year ago I would have told you a completely different story. When I finished undergrad last year and didn't get into d-school I began looking for work as an assistant, however, this job fell in my lap. I think it has been the best thing that could have happened and I encourage anyone who is going to d-school to do the same and learn the business side of dentistry before school. Not when you get out from the school of hard knocks. Just my opinion. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong but how many classes do you take about practice manangement in school 2, maybe 3?? And in these classes do they teach you about DMO's and PPO's and which is more profitable for a practice and how to file insurance to get them to pay in a timely manner and such???

U of Buffalo School of Dental Medicine Class of 2009

 

[ItsGavinC]

careful, careful... you are about to touch a nerve. but sure, i can take a little ribbing. just remember... i'm 4 hours from the beach, 4 hours from the mountains, and get to enjoy 6-8 months of warm weather a year!

6-8 months of warm and muggy/humid weather, along with mosquitios and other insects that resemble small birds.

 

[organichemistry]

6-8 months of warm and muggy/humid weather, along with mosquitios and other insects that resemble small birds.

hey i won't lie... arizona weather is great too (although i woukd miss the beautiful gulf beaches). you say we have it humid here, but a little humidity isn't always so bad. at least i don't get shocked when i get out of my car... and i don't feel the need to pick my nose because it is so dry!

 

[lnn2]

... from my experience with new graduates they don't get the business training in school they need to open a practice fresh out of school.
Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong but how many classes do you take about practice manangement in school 2, maybe 3??
And in these classes do they teach you about DMO's and PPO's and which is more profitable for a practice and how to file insurance to get them to pay in a timely manner and such???

You're correct! I had 2 practice management classes and they were a joke, imo. They don't really teach you how to manage a pracitice, things such as filing/collective insurance, hiring employees....

20k was the most she took home in a month, it was a really busy December, said she averaged about 12-15k during normal months.

That's true. One of my relatives has been working for Castle Dental for 5-6yrs now. That's about what she's been making.

 

[Mr. So-So]

Originally Posted by mdsn
does anyone plan on buying a dental practice straight out of school?

doing this right now.
(edit:not buying an existing practice...but opening a start up practice)

generally takes at least 6 months from selecting location to seating first patient..
..also much easier getting financing when you actually HAVE a license.

very rough estimate on the cost is about $70-75/sq foot.
if you are smart and dont go for the kavo chairs and waterlase lasers...you should be able to fully equip each op for under $15k...$10k if wanna get jiggy with it.

began search for commercial land/space 3 months ago...and plan to open doors in jan/feb.
will then go to part time in a high volume practice in order make sure payments are made on the m5..



regards.

 

[organichemistry]

doing this right now.
(edit:not buying an existing practice...but opening a start up practice)

generally takes at least 6 months from selecting location to seating first patient..
..also much easier getting financing when you actually HAVE a license.

very rough estimate on the cost is about $70-75/sq foot.
if you are smart and dont go for the kavo chairs and waterlase lasers...you should be able to fully equip each op for under $15k...$10k if wanna get jiggy with it.

began search for commercial land/space 3 months ago...and plan to open doors in jan/feb.
will then go to part time in a high volume practice in order make sure payments are made on the m5..



regards.

are you going to be seeing any patients between now and when you open your own practice (at a high volume place) or is setting up your new practice a full-time job between now and then. just curious on what you are doing for income between graduation (i presume you are graduating as we speak) and january (when you open up your own practice).

by the way... m5 although i have a feeling i will be driving a civic till im 40 with the debt and whatnot!

 

[gryffindor]

by the way... m5 although i have a feeling i will be driving a civic till im 40 with the debt and whatnot!

Nothing wrong with a civic!

I agree with a number of the posters. During dental school, I too used to think I wanted to associate for 3 - 5 years to "learn the ropes" of running a practice and then buy an existing practice. Now that I've been out for a year (doing a GPR), I am leaning more and more toward hanging my own shingle. I may start out slow, like 1 or 2 days/week on my own and work for someone else the other days in the beginning. Basically, I'm so sick of inheriting other people's messes that I don't want to buy a huge practice of someone else's headaches and spend several years making things run my way. I'd rather just start from scratch myself.

 

[Fullosseousflap]

I am currently working in an office as a collections/insurance type person. I will be starting dental school this fall. But over the past year of working I have learned a ton about the business side of dentistry (which I formerly knew nothing at all about). The practice I work in produced over 1mil last year, anyway, I have gotten to be really good friends with the associate in our office, she has been out of school 3 years and she is making 35% of her collections. She said that between 35 and 40% is about the going rate. We have also talked about when she worked at Jefferson Dental, (like Monarch, or Castle) clinic dentistry, she said she would take home between 10-20k a month. One more thing that you have to think about when working for a dentist in private practice is that a lot of senior dentists will want you to be an independent contractor. This is not good. The associate that I speak of is an IC, she pays 1/2 of her pay check to uncle sam every month.

Ok now my opinion. If you are looking to make a lot of money and sharpen your skills right out of school I would say to work for a clinic, ie monarch, castle, jefferson (I'm sure there are more). You will be put in a situation where you will be able to do a ton of clinical work and make a nice pay check for it, working 6 days a week. If you are looking to just get buy and pay on some bills but not really carve away your student loan debt you can work as an associate for 4 days a week and make a considerable amount less.


U of Buffalo School of Dental Medicine Class of 2009

I am repeating your quote from way before to comment on it again.

The normal percentage for compensation for associate dentist in California and/or the Midwest is normally 25-30% of collections. 35% is on the high end and if your associate doc is getting it - more power to her, but, most owner dentists here would not pay that high of a percentage.

Independent contractor status is not a loss for the associate dentist. In most instances the dentist forms a LLC or a Professional Corporation to reduce tax liability and the senior/owner doc pays the dental corporation not the dentist directly. This has tax savings for both parties and allows a larger percentage to be paid to the dental corporation (instead of employer share payroll taxes - medicare, etc.). And the associate dentist has the flexibility of not having the massive tax withholds every pay period and allows them to have more cash in hand.

From my experience most new graduates are not prepared to keep up clinically in a fast paced office. This is not a criticism but a fact. The newly graduated dentist will build their speed and skills with time.

I do not think a dental mill is necessarily the best place to start. It will work for some but for most they would prefer a different type of practice - albeit slower paced and less compensation (at first).

My advice (for what it is worth) is to start your own practice as soon as you are financially able. You will learn the business side of dentistry. It is not rocket science.

 

[Mr. So-So]

are you going to be seeing any patients between now and when you open your own practice (at a high volume place) or is setting up your new practice a full-time job between now and then. just curious on what you are doing for income between graduation (i presume you are graduating as we speak) and january (when you open up your own practice).

by the way... m5 although i have a feeling i will be driving a civic till im 40 with the debt and whatnot!

sorry for confusion.
i'll be at that high volume place 4-5 days/week for those first 6 months.

concerning the vehicle..it's 4 years old..purchased below wholesale on ebay..and the parents helped with that purchase thing.

a benefit of attending a state school...is the loans over 30 years at 2.77% really isn't that big of a drag. ..
which leaves room in the budget for a small "toys"...even for a new dentist taking on stacking loans on loans.

 

[lnn2]

Nothing wrong with a civic!.

Correct! but it's still a civic! Life's short, why buy a civic when you can afford a much nicer car?!

I agree with a number of the posters. During dental school, I too used to think I wanted to associate for 3 - 5 years to "learn the ropes" of running a practice and then buy an existing practice. Now that I've been out for a year (doing a GPR), I am leaning more and more toward hanging my own shingle. I may start out slow, like 1 or 2 days/week on my own and work for someone else the other days in the beginning. Basically, I'm so sick of inheriting other people's messes that I don't want to buy a huge practice of someone else's headaches and spend several years making things run my way. I'd rather just start from scratch myself.

Wow, that's exactly how I feel! I've planned on working 1-2yrs as an associate to get "real life" experience then open my own practice from scratch, 1-2days/wk (while still working as an associate untill my practice up and running!)

 

[DrJeff]

"Dental Mill" thought for everyone in this thread here. If the money is that great, how come the "dental mills" have such a high turn over of new associates?? Afterall if paying of student loans and getting that house/car is important you'd think that the $$ factor would keep associates there wouldn't you??? If you're a "partner" in one of these mills, it has its perks and advanatges, if your an associate, god help you.

Between my own graduating class, my residency classes, my wife's co-ortho residents and the students I've taught now in the 5 years I've been teaching at UCONN, I've known about 10 people who have gone out and work for a "dental mill" all over the country. The longest that one of them stayed employed by that "mill" was 14 months, the average about 6 months The most common reason I heard from them on way they left was a combination of too many hours, not enough time to practice dentistry at the quality level they wanted, and not liking the realization after a while that the office manager had more say in the operation of the practice than they did. Proceed at your own risk with these "mills"

 

[DrJeff]

careful, careful... you are about to touch a nerve. but sure, i can take a little ribbing. just remember... i'm 4 hours from the beach, 4 hours from the mountains, and get to enjoy 6-8 months of warm weather a year!

Check out Southeastern New England. My house is 35 miles from the beach ( a 45 minute ride asuming traffic around the casinos (Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods) isn't too bad. I'm 100 miles(did it this afternoon in 1 hour and 40 minutes)from my "beach house" (my in-laws live on Cape Cod about 100 yards from the water) and 2 hours and 20 minutes (140 miles) from my ski house in Southern Vermont. Okay, we only get 6 months of warm weather, 4 months of ski weather and 2 months of "transistion" weather. But I can also (when I get tickets) be in Fenway Park watching a Red Sox / Yankees game in less than an hour and a half, or go down to Yankee Stadium in about 2 and a half hours.

And as for Real-Estate in my part of Eastern Connecticut/Western Rhode Island, my wife and I are contemplating the house upgrade currently and weighing in on the addition to the current house vs. buying a bigger house. The Real Estate agent that sold us our current hosue last week showed us a 10 year old contemporary styled house 5 Bedrooms, 4.5 baths, just over 4,000 sq. feet, with an inground pool. 3 car garage, a seperate detached barn that could hold another 6 or so cars or if we had them stalls for 10 horses, on 20 acres of mainly open land that includes water access to a 30 acre pond. Taxes of about $4200/year. Listing price is $585,00, real estate agent thinks if we offer $550,00 that the owners would take it. While alot of money, its quite reasonable considering all it has to offer and is a sign that you can indeed be in New England and have quite an affordable housing market.

As for what $150,000 will get you in my area, depending on what town you want to live in, $150,00 can get you everything from a new construction 2-3 bedroom, 1.5-2 baths, 1,500-1,800sq. ft cape and an acre to a similar sized 2 bedroom townhome. If you go 30 to 40 miles in any direction from where I live, you can double to triple those prices for the same sized house/lot.

The other great thing baout living in ANY afforadable GROWING area, is that you're seeing ALot of new people moving to the area which means ALOT of new potential patients for your practice

 

[DDSSlave]

The other great thing baout living in ANY afforadable GROWING area, is that you're seeing ALot of new people moving to the area which means ALOT of new potential patients for your practice

This may be getting off on a tangent, but sense the subject was briefly mentioned... what type of growing area is ideal for a gp or ortho starting up a practice? For example, roughly what pt population per dentist/ortho should you be looking for and determining whether the market is saturated?

 

[ItsGavinC]

The most common reason I heard from them on way they left was a combination of too many hours, not enough time to practice dentistry at the quality level they wanted, and not liking the realization after a while that the office manager had more say in the operation of the practice than they did. Proceed at your own risk with these "mills"

I agree, lots of ethical dillemas seem to arise in these situations.

 

[DrJeff]

This may be getting off on a tangent, but sense the subject was briefly mentioned... what type of growing area is ideal for a gp or ortho starting up a practice? For example, roughly what pt population per dentist/ortho should you be looking for and determining whether the market is saturated?

Not to sound too obvious, but you want the lowest dentist/pt ratio as possible. But then again you have to really look at the demographics of those patients, especially if you're looking ortho.

Things to look for:
1) a growing population, typically a good sign is if you a large number of new housing starts in that area in the past few years and trending upwards in starts. In most areas of the country new houses = new families with kids which also tends to equal some "disposable" income for them to spend on you.

2) look for areas where towns are building new schools (In general a sign of overcrowding in the schools due to an influx of new people in the area)

3) Look at areas where large companies are building new plants/factories and/or brand new types of development in an area (i.e. new plants/factories generally = new jobs which generally ='s more people moving into an area)

4) Look at the ADA demographics, a little digging and a couple of phone calls to the central office in Chicago can turn up some data about the average age of practitioners in an area, which can give you leads as to where there may soon be a decreasing # of dentists due to retirement.

 

[reLAXgirl]

Let's not forget take-home pay. On salaries like that you will often pay 35-45% in taxes alone. The money will go faster than you anticipate. Of course, it is hundreds of times better than what I live off now!