Salary as a starting associate

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organichemistry said:
man... who says $150,000 can't buy a nice starter home? ya'll must be living in the wrong parts of the country :laugh:

See how far it can go?

Not the home I would end up in... but for just me, my wife, and maybe 1 young child... it's perfect! gives me plenty of time to save up for that real nice home 🙂 (especially since i'll be sure to marry an orthopedic surgeon, or maybe a neurosurgeon).

And this is what you'll get for 200K in North Bay! Isn't it rediculous?
But you can get this in TX!
 
luder98 said:
But you can get this in TX!

There are definitely nice homes to be had in Texas for great prices, but if you want to live anywhere decent, like good areas of Houston or Dallas, you are looking at 500K for that house that you listed.
 
Rezdawg said:
There are definitely nice homes to be had in Texas for great prices, but if you want to live anywhere decent, like good areas of Houston or Dallas, you are looking at 500K for that house that you listed.

500k ? are you sure man ? New 2 stories house in Pearland, Bay Area, Scardale, outskirt Sugarland or Elief areas is around 170-250k. They are all decent areas. I haven't checked Katy or Woodlands area yet. I'm sure you can't find any house for less than 500k in West U, Bellaire, Post Oaks or Memorial area.
 
HuyetKiem said:
I'm sure you can't find any house for less than 500k in West U, Bellaire, Post Oaks or Memorial area.

These are the areas I was talking about. These places are areas within Houston.

As far as Sugarland, Alief, Pearland, Katy, Woodlands, Kingwood, etc... Those are nice areas to live, but they are areas outside the Houston city limit. You'd have to drive 40 minutes to get into the fun areas of town. If you are in your 20's, I would stay away from these areas unless you are working there. Otherwise, its not really that exciting of a place.

Post Oak, River Oaks, Memorial, West U, and Midtown are areas that I would recommend living. They are very nice, safe, and close to everything you would ever want or need. When Im done with D School and come back to Houston, I will start off in either West U or Midtown. Once I am able to afford something better, I will move to Memorial/Post Oak/River Oaks areas.
 
Rezdawg said:
Post Oak, River Oaks, Memorial, West U, and Midtown are areas that I would recommend living. They are very nice, safe, and close to everything you would ever want or need. When Im done with D School and come back to Houston, I will start off in either West U or Midtown. Once I am able to afford something better, I will move to Memorial/Post Oak/River Oaks areas.


And cry when you get the tax bills :laugh: :laugh: My bro in law has paid 40k every year for his 2 stories house in Bellaire city. Heck! his house isn't bigger than mine. I'm sure tax rates are much higher in Post Oak, River Oaks, Memorial, West U, and Midtown. Anyway, my tax bills every year are around 10-11k for a <200k house 😕 😕 but fortunately it is in a good school district and quiet area near Scardales.
 
Rezdawg said:
There are definitely nice homes to be had in Texas for great prices, but if you want to live anywhere decent, like good areas of Houston or Dallas, you are looking at 500K for that house that you listed.
I'm sure there are more expensive areas in TX just like any other states. I thought I threw the two links out to see how much variation we have in our country. In general, TX is considered a cheap (good) place for housing. I have relatives in Houston, Richardson, Euless and Dallas. Their houses are all in good neighborhood, but they are fairly cheap (of course that's a relative term). Some places in California you'll be surprised what house one can get for 500K.

Anyway, back to the original topic, it was mentioned at an interview I went to that some new grads could make as much as $900 per day in their first year in some places in TX. A friend of mine (5-year exp) works as an associate and makes about 2G per day. This is also in TX. So the opportunity to make big money is there. I guess we just have to figure where the right locations are.
 
HuyetKiem said:
... it is in a good school district and quiet area near Scardales.

Where is Scardales?

And although I'm sure there are a small handful of grads making $900 straight out, but that is way above average in Houston at least.
 
luder98 said:
I'm sure there are more expensive areas in TX just like any other states. I thought I threw the two links out to see how much variation we have in our country. In general, TX is considered a cheap (good) place for housing. I have relatives in Houston, Richardson, Euless and Dallas. Their houses are all in good neighborhood, but they are fairly cheap (of course that's a relative term). Some places in California you'll be surprised what house one can get for 500K.

Anyway, back to the original topic, it was mentioned at an interview I went to that some new grads could make as much as $900 per day in their first year in some places in TX. A friend of mine (5-year exp) works as an associate and makes about 2G per day. This is also in TX. So the opportunity to make big money is there. I guess we just have to figure where the right locations are.

Okay, I get your point. You are right, homes are generally very cheap in Texas. And your point about dentists in Texas is spot on. They make a killing here. The endodontist I shadowed makes 6500-7000 a day. There are 2 general dentists I worked with too, each made about 500K per year, working about 30 hours a week. They all tell me that there is such a high demand in Texas for dentists that you will make more than you know what to do with.

EDIT

Regarding fresh grads working in Houston, I think one of the dentists I was with mentioned something around 600 a day for a newbie.
 
Rezdawg said:
Regarding fresh grads working in Houston, I think one of the dentists I was with mentioned something around 600 a day for a newbie.

For the slow days. I checked the production of one of my bro' associate in March (slowest month of the year). She saw around 16-17 patients (kids mostly) with prophys, sealants, few cavities and baby teeth extractions. Her production for that day was $1850 and got 30%. Of course, as a newbie, she couldnot do any other major work. I talked to my bro last nite, he said her speed has got better. But it still takes her 2 and half hrs for 2 SSCs.
 
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So basically when i see starting associates making around 80,000 - 100,000 a year thats for a 30-40hr work week?

So if an associate wanted to work 60-70 hrs a week, he could easily make around 150k?

But would an employer let a new dentist work that much?
 
JamesD said:
So basically when i see starting associates making around 80,000 - 100,000 a year thats for a 30-40hr work week?

So if an associate wanted to work 60-70 hrs a week, he could easily make around 150k?

But would an employer let a new dentist work that much?

It depends on where you are and how good you are with your hands.
I've seen 80k to 180k.
 
JamesD said:
So basically when i see starting associates making around 80,000 - 100,000 a year thats for a 30-40hr work week?

So if an associate wanted to work 60-70 hrs a week, he could easily make around 150k?

But would an employer let a new dentist work that much?

You can work in multiple places. My friend does that. But, remember, it is very easy to get burned out working more than 50hrs.
 
DrJeff said:
It's very geographically diverse, big metropolitan areas with higher costsof living and higher fees = more per day. A GP in a big city may get $6-700 per day depending on volume. In a small rural area, you can expect atleast the 3-400 a day, and if a practice can't pay you atleast that per day either a) they don't have the patient volume to support you, or b) the senior dentist is making a ton of $$ off you. A better rule of thumb is that you should be getting somewhere around 35% of your production as your pay(if you have to pay things like lab fees, etc you should be getting a higher percentage).

Big thing to watch out for as your looking for a practice, and a way that a senior dentist will end up making more $$ off you than it appears. If your going to join a practice, they senior dentist should show you the books with the production and overhead figures(if he/she won't you don't want anything to do with that practice because you're NOT being paid what you're worth). The senior dentist will show you what the overhead percentage figure is (lets say 60% for an average number). Now if the senior dentist(s) don't have to add any additional operatories for you, the amount of overhead you add to the practice will be LESS than the total overhead. Think of it this way, if the practice produces $1,000,000 a year and the overhead is 60%(600,000) and if they don't have to build an additions to the office, then your over head may be the cost of an assistant, say $25,000 plus materials for you say another $25,000, lab fees say another $15,000 some advertising for you say $2,000 and maybe some new instruments for you say $10,000. So the cost to you would be say $75,000 in additional fees, then if you produce $250,000 (a realistic number if not a bit low), the senior docs off you would be getting the $250,000 - $75,000 = $175,000. Then if they pay you say $100,000, they get roughly that $75,000 in their pockets(true they have to pay some taxes on you, and you'll add to the electric bill a bit, but worst case scenario is they'd still clear $50,000 off of you, all the while saying that the overhead for you is the same 60% as for them. Be carefull of associateships where the senior docs tell you that they're "not making any money off you"

As for specialty programs, for an ortho associate, again location is everything. I am running this by my orthodontist wife as I type and off the top of her head based upon what her ortho friends have told her and from personal experience anywhere for $500 to $1000 a day is reasonable to expect as a starting per diem.

As for an endodontist, a high of $1200 is very believable. Think of it this way, if the endodontist does 4 molars in 1 day at $1000 a tooth (both very believable numbers) thats $4000 in production and the $1200 is only 30% production. BTW, endo overhead tends to be lower than a GP's overhead due to a much smaller quantity of instruments/materials to function on a daily basis.

Now that I've shed some light to you folks on some of the "tricks of the trade" about hiring an associate, I could never expect/be able to make a dime off any of you if you came to join into my practice in a few years when we'll likely need a 3rd dentist 😀
wow you are one hell honest dude. respect doc 😀 😀 😀
 
balance said:
You can work in multiple places. My friend does that. But, remember, it is very easy to get burned out working more than 50hrs.

Very, very true. There is a big time reason that the average dentist works 30 to 35 hrs a week and not more. It is draining especially in a busy office.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE what I do and even in a day where I have a schedule full of PITA (Pain In The A$$) patients, and 3 hygenists askeing me to get up and check their patients what seems like every 2 minutes, it's still a blast. One of the reason why I have such a good time is that I work 3.5 days a week (29 hours), which leaves plenty of time for mental sanity (i.e family, recreation, etc). I will say though that often my scheduled 29 hours a week turns into 32 or 33 between emergency patients, paper work and time it takes to run a business. But if everything runs smoothly, I'm done with patients and out of the office by 1:15PM on Friday and don't walk back into the office until 8AM Tuesday giving me 3.5 day weekends each week! 😀 When I weigh my free personal time vs. what extra $$ I could make by working 40hrs a week, 3.5 days a week and my current income level wins out each and every time.
 
ItsGavinC said:
Sounds pretty wise to me.

Well, when i am younger and not married, i wont mind putting in 50-60+ hrs. a week assuming i wil be paid more. I was just wondering if the "dental mills" usually let an associate work this much and if he/she is usually paid for comission rather than straight-up salary.
 
what are the salaries of associates from the different states?

Ca, NY, Nevada, Utah, Texas, Arizona, Colorado?
 
doctordental said:
what are the salaries of associates from the different states?

Ca, NY, Nevada, Utah, Texas, Arizona, Colorado?


I can talk about texas right now after going through 4 interviews. for fresh out of school graduates the hourly rate seems to be $ 55 to 58 per hour and most positions are for a 40 hr week. corporate dentistry seems to be the trend and they are making the big bucks and extracting the max out of dentists. Is anyone out there getting a bigger better deal??!!
 
groovy said:
I can talk about texas right now after going through 4 interviews. for fresh out of school graduates the hourly rate seems to be $ 55 to 58 per hour and most positions are for a 40 hr week. corporate dentistry seems to be the trend and they are making the big bucks and extracting the max out of dentists. Is anyone out there getting a bigger better deal??!!
So it's about $110 to $116K per yr. What about benefits, lab fees? I'll start looking in Texas in a few weeks. I'll post the results later. So it seems that you'll get more working for corporate dentistry? The down side is that private practice dentists don't seem to think that it's a good learning environment.
 
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mdsn said:
does anyone plan on buying a dental practice straight out of school?
My current plans are actually to do what ure saying, and buy a practice straight after grad (family money). So what kinda numbers am i looking at...I' know that a lot of owners who are selling their practices work with you for 6 months-1 year as a sort of transitional period so you get to know their patients and vice versa.
Can anyone give me the approx. cost of buying a practice that grosses in the range of 1mil a year?
And an even bigger question is can a fresh grad handle a practice so large?
I'd obviosuly be willing to hire associates.
Keep in mind that i've graduated from dental school abroad and have worked for a year already. I'm gonna be doing an advanced placement program for international dentists so i can get licensed in the states...so technically I wont be a "fresh grad" at least clinical wise.
 
lnn2 said:
So it's about $110 to $116K per yr. What about benefits, lab fees? I'll start looking in Texas in a few weeks. I'll post the results later. So it seems that you'll get more working for corporate dentistry? The down side is that private practice dentists don't seem to think that it's a good learning environment.

I agree its not the best learning environment but with the bulk of patients seen everyday there is no reason why one will not be able to hone clinical skills.I would treat it as a residency and not do it for more than a year...and in the meantime start paying off those loans! they are including benefits and only one group wanted to deduct 25% of lab fees from salary.
I will be waiting to hear your input soon as I have not taken any decision yet and am conitinuing to interview.
 
ScubaDr2B said:
I am currently working in an office as a collections/insurance type person. I will be starting dental school this fall. But over the past year of working I have learned a ton about the business side of dentistry (which I formerly knew nothing at all about). The practice I work in produced over 1mil last year, anyway, I have gotten to be really good friends with the associate in our office, she has been out of school 3 years and she is making 35% of her collections. She said that between 35 and 40% is about the going rate. We have also talked about when she worked at Jefferson Dental, (like Monarch, or Castle) clinic dentistry, she said she would take home between 10-20k a month. One more thing that you have to think about when working for a dentist in private practice is that a lot of senior dentists will want you to be an independent contractor. This is not good. The associate that I speak of is an IC, she pays 1/2 of her pay check to uncle sam every month.

Ok now my opinion. If you are looking to make a lot of money and sharpen your skills right out of school I would say to work for a clinic, ie monarch, castle, jefferson (I'm sure there are more). You will be put in a situation where you will be able to do a ton of clinical work and make a nice pay check for it, working 6 days a week. If you are looking to just get buy and pay on some bills but not really carve away your student loan debt you can work as an associate for 4 days a week and make a considerable amount less.


U of Buffalo School of Dental Medicine Class of 2009

I wasn't aware that there was another option out there for recent grads other than either becoming an associate or starting up your own practice. Would you be able to give me more information or direct me to where I can get more information on dental clinics. I'd like to know if every state has a dental clinic and how to choose between clinics.

I'm very interested in this option after I grad because I am a Canadian studying at a private institution and once I am out of dental school I will be in a huge debt that I'd like to pay off quickly. I plan to spend no more than 2 years paying off my debt (hopefully that will work out) and then go back to Canada and start up my own practice. I don't mind working hard for a few years to quickly pay off my debt and the dental clinic sounds very interesting. If anyone has worked in a dental clinic and can give me some details and what their experience was like I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!
 
Insomniac said:
I wasn't aware that there was another option out there for recent grads other than either becoming an associate or starting up your own practice. Would you be able to give me more information or direct me to where I can get more information on dental clinics. I'd like to know if every state has a dental clinic and how to choose between clinics.

I'm very interested in this option after I grad because I am a Canadian studying at a private institution and once I am out of dental school I will be in a huge debt that I'd like to pay off quickly. I plan to spend no more than 2 years paying off my debt (hopefully that will work out) and then go back to Canada and start up my own practice. I don't mind working hard for a few years to quickly pay off my debt and the dental clinic sounds very interesting. If anyone has worked in a dental clinic and can give me some details and what their experience was like I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!



paying off your debt in 2 years may not be feasible if it is truly "huge" and it almost certainly isn't the smartest thing to do.
 
organichemistry said:
paying off your debt in 2 years may not be feasible if it is truly "huge" and it almost certainly isn't the smartest thing to do.

Why?
 
rahmed said:

Tax reasons mainly. Lets say you owe $100,000 in loans for arguements sake. Now if you're working your tail off for 2 years making $120,000 a year as an associate, well first off you'll be paying "Uncle Sam" about $40,000 a year, leaving you about $80,000 to work with. Now lets say to save costs you live in a real cheap apartment at $750 a month. Now you've got roughly $70,000 left. To sum it up lets say the rest of your living expenses come out to be $2000 a month, now you've got $50,000 left. After 2 years you've got your loans paid off, and nothing gained from it(or more importantly been able to dedcut nothing off your taxes - you now make WAY too much to deduct any student loan interest off your taxes).

Now, lets say you consolidate your loans to what ever ridiculous low percentage it's at now(we'll call it 3% for arguements sake), and you live the same way, but only pay back $20,000 per year, put the other $30,000 into saving for a house downpayment and retirement savings. Now that you own a house, you can deduct your interest on your mortgage, so you keep more of your hrad earned money. Also, you've started saving for retirement sooner. Now the really good part. Since housing prices are escalating very rapidly, and you're a good loan "risk" to a banker, you get you're house re-appraised and its increased in value after a year by 15%. You now refinance your mortgage and also take out a home equity line of credit to pay off your student loans, and all of the sudden , you can deduct the intersst payments on the money you're useing to pay off your student loans, thus saving you rmore money and padding your retirement savings.

Please, please before you start paying back HUGE amounts of $$ a year in student loans, talk to an accountant, they can often guide you in ways that you would have never thought of to more wisely (an minimally) spend your money!
 
Sheesh, if I liked teeth I could be a dentist. I bet you don't have nearly the misery of dictations, charts, prior authorizations, follow-up phone requests, lifesuckers you have in medical family practice. Trouble is I don't think I could stare into people's mouths all day long.
Lisa PA-C
organichemistry said:
heh; a brand new 2 bedroom 2 bathroom home with everything a 20 something without a large family could need ("graden" home, i suppose) in the suburbs of birmingham alabama can be had for $200,000. Then 5 or 10 years down the line, maybe build that home-of-my-dreams for my kids to grow up in 🙂
 
DrJeff said:
Tax reasons mainly. Lets say you owe $100,000 in loans for arguements sake. Now if you're working your tail off for 2 years making $120,000 a year as an associate, well first off you'll be paying "Uncle Sam" about $40,000 a year, leaving you about $80,000 to work with. Now lets say to save costs you live in a real cheap apartment at $750 a month. Now you've got roughly $70,000 left. To sum it up lets say the rest of your living expenses come out to be $2000 a month, now you've got $50,000 left. After 2 years you've got your loans paid off, and nothing gained from it(or more importantly been able to dedcut nothing off your taxes - you now make WAY too much to deduct any student loan interest off your taxes).

Now, lets say you consolidate your loans to what ever ridiculous low percentage it's at now(we'll call it 3% for arguements sake), and you live the same way, but only pay back $20,000 per year, put the other $30,000 into saving for a house downpayment and retirement savings. Now that you own a house, you can deduct your interest on your mortgage, so you keep more of your hrad earned money. Also, you've started saving for retirement sooner. Now the really good part. Since housing prices are escalating very rapidly, and you're a good loan "risk" to a banker, you get you're house re-appraised and its increased in value after a year by 15%. You now refinance your mortgage and also take out a home equity line of credit to pay off your student loans, and all of the sudden , you can deduct the intersst payments on the money you're useing to pay off your student loans, thus saving you rmore money and padding your retirement savings.

Please, please before you start paying back HUGE amounts of $$ a year in student loans, talk to an accountant, they can often guide you in ways that you would have never thought of to more wisely (an minimally) spend your money!

👍 also make charitable deductions by offering some scholarships to "starving" students, thus keeping some of your hard earned bread "in the family" 🙂
 
DrJeff said:
Tax reasons mainly. Lets say you owe $100,000 in loans for arguements sake. Now if you're working your tail off for 2 years making $120,000 a year as an associate, well first off you'll be paying "Uncle Sam" about $40,000 a year, leaving you about $80,000 to work with. Now lets say to save costs you live in a real cheap apartment at $750 a month. Now you've got roughly $70,000 left. To sum it up lets say the rest of your living expenses come out to be $2000 a month, now you've got $50,000 left. After 2 years you've got your loans paid off, and nothing gained from it(or more importantly been able to dedcut nothing off your taxes - you now make WAY too much to deduct any student loan interest off your taxes).

Now, lets say you consolidate your loans to what ever ridiculous low percentage it's at now(we'll call it 3% for arguements sake), and you live the same way, but only pay back $20,000 per year, put the other $30,000 into saving for a house downpayment and retirement savings. Now that you own a house, you can deduct your interest on your mortgage, so you keep more of your hrad earned money. Also, you've started saving for retirement sooner. Now the really good part. Since housing prices are escalating very rapidly, and you're a good loan "risk" to a banker, you get you're house re-appraised and its increased in value after a year by 15%. You now refinance your mortgage and also take out a home equity line of credit to pay off your student loans, and all of the sudden , you can deduct the intersst payments on the money you're useing to pay off your student loans, thus saving you rmore money and padding your retirement savings.

Please, please before you start paying back HUGE amounts of $$ a year in student loans, talk to an accountant, they can often guide you in ways that you would have never thought of to more wisely (an minimally) spend your money!

You make a very good point regarding taxes 👍 However, I'm wondering if this works for someone who has already taken out a line of credit (which is what I've only been able to do since I'm a Canadian studying at a US university and do not qualify for Stafford or Federal Loans) Is it possible to consolidate a line of credit or does that only apply to student loans because the interest rate on my line of credit is prime plus 1 and the longer I take to pay off my line of credit the more interest I will incur? Especially if interest rates rise in the future. Is that not correct? Therefore, I assumed that the faster I pay off my loan the faster I'll get out of debt and in the long run save myself from paying the bank interest that I could be saving. If there's another way that might be better in getting the most out of my salary when I graduate and paying off the loans please advise.

I'm trying my best to figure out how I should plan my next 5-10 years and start setting a timeline for my goals realistically but I've found it hard to obtain the information I need at this time. I mainly find information pertaining to US students and not many Canadian students that have studied at a US school and what their methods of paying off their loans were and what the situation is for someone like me. I've tried asking around and most Canadians that go to US schools have parents that are able to help them out which doesn't give me too much information on my situation. Basically, I'd like to get an idea of what I can expect when I grad. I've been told not to worry while others tell me that I will need to work hard to get myself out of debt. Now I am confused as to whether to work hard to quickly pay off my debt or take my time.....any more help on this issue woule be great. Thanks! 🙂
 
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organichemistry said:
careful, careful... you are about to touch a nerve. but sure, i can take a little ribbing. just remember... i'm 4 hours from the beach, 4 hours from the mountains, and get to enjoy 6-8 months of warm weather a year!
You consider that smelly thing called Gulf of Mexico a beach?
 
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