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theDOCTORINATOR

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HEY GUYS:

Once out of residency and having a real job as a doctor how much would you say they make.(starting right out of residency). What is the lowest ( i am guessing GP) and what is the highest (guessing neuro) amount will you make?
 

dynx

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HEY GUYS:

Once out of residency and having a real job as a doctor how much would you say they make.(starting right out of residency). What is the lowest ( i am guessing GP) and what is the highest (guessing neuro) amount will you make?

Lowest is family practice coming in at 20K a year in boise, Idaho...Ouch!
Highest is 756K a year for a plastic surgeon in the porn industry in lansville, Kentucky (go figure)...Yeah!
 
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theDOCTORINATOR

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Thanks so much. Yeah i saw one posted on sdn similar to that one. I however was discussing my future plans with family and how i should be able to pay back the med school debt since i thought the lowest i could make would be around 125k. They said "dont be so sure...i think youll be surprised..." they think ill be making like 65k starting out. (after residency).

Just wanted to ask those doing clinicals as they might have asked their attendings and such how much they make.

Just want to make sure that those figures are right.
 

theDOCTORINATOR

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Lowest is family practice coming in at 20K a year in boise, Idaho...Ouch!
Highest is 756K a year for a plastic surgeon in the porn industry in lansville, Kentucky (go figure)...Yeah!
dp
 

theDOCTORINATOR

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I think dynx was talking about the highest earnings for the first year of working after completing residency. Obviously a chief will be making more!
Huh why you quote me. I said nothng about any chief.:confused:
 

theDOCTORINATOR

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I thought you posted something saying the chief neurosurgeon where you're from makes 5 million. But then after I posted my reply, your post was gone and replaced with "dp"
Oh. so do you agree with the list that was posted or have your attendings told you different?
 

Pianoboe01

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Oh. so do you agree with the list that was posted or have your attendings told you different?

I'm a second year, so I really don't know how accurate those salaries from that link are since I have not been around very many doctors just finishing residency. From my limited knowledge, I think they sound about right though. Probably if you posted this in one of the residency forums, residents would be able to answer this question better.
 
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You have to take all that income information with a grain of salt.

The "max" column, for example, isn't exactly the upper limit. I know a number of FPs who earn in excess of $300K.

If you start out making only $65K in any specialty, it's because that's all you want to make.
 

theDOCTORINATOR

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You have to take all that income information with a grain of salt.

The "max" column, for example, isn't exactly the upper limit. I know a number of FPs who earn in excess of $300K.

If you start out making only $65K in any specialty, it's because that's all you want to make.
Who would WANT to only make that?
 
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abefromann

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I think you can expect to make between 100-200k for your first 1-10 years out in most non-surgical specialties. Don't believe those 'my friend in PM&R makes 800 thousand a year' rumors. There are sometimes exceptions, and they usually work incredibly hard. The high paying gigs are the surgical ones as a rule. Those are 200-300K kind of jobs. Later in your career if you're chief or whatnot of course it can go up. No one's going to be seriously rich as a doctor anymore; at least not right out of residency.
 

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I think this question has been beaten to death before.. many.. many.. many times.

The amount of money you are going to make will fluctuate according to many different factors -- speciality (obviously), location, location, location, where you are in your own private practice, a group practice, academics, etc.

You definitely will not be starving, and should make enough money to start paying off your loans and begin leading a moderate lifestyle. You definitely won't be able to run out and buy a few Ferari's, but needless to say, you will be living quite comfortable.

Aside from your clinic work, being an MD opens up numerous opportunities for you, if you choose. I know a local IM physician who only spends a few days a week doing outpaitent work at his group practice, and makes loads and loads of cash. Being an MD opened up tons of opportunities for investment and business ventures, and he is basically living off the money earned from those ventures.

So, keep in mind that when you exit residency, you will make more than enough to live off of, and there are always other opportunities among the horizon, if you choose.
 

Falco2525

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Lowest is family practice coming in at 20K a year in boise, Idaho...Ouch!
Highest is 756K a year for a plastic surgeon in the porn industry in lansville, Kentucky (go figure)...Yeah!

can t be right I know a neurosurgeon that has to be making upwards of 2-3 million a year
 

thewebthsp

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I would predict physician's salaries as being 15% less in the next 20 and about 30% less in the next 30-40 years...

That being said we make way more than physicians in other countries... in the UK specialist consultants (attendings) mostly make £75,000. Germany is something like 60-80K. Israel is 40K. Obviously there are cost of living differences but you get the point.

However MD as said earlier opens the door towards entreprenuer-ship and great business opportunities (biotech, biomed engineering etc) if one is aggressive and takes some risks....
 
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thewebthsp

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:eek:


From BMJ article, a Yale prof writes:

"Bearing in mind that the median US income is in the $30,000 range and taking a look at the below medians from a recent issue of Medical Economics, I say doctors in the US, at least earn too much. Likely a redistribution from procedurists to primary care would be useful, but the overall pie is very large. Doctors should be comfortable, not rich.

2005 Median Total Compensation

Invasive cardiology $400,000
Noninvasive cardiology $325,000
GI $300,000
Ortho $300,000
Urology $300,000
Ophthalmology $280,000
Dermatology $254,000
General Surgery $225,000
Nephrology $210,000
OB/GYN $210,000
Allergy $200,000
Endocrinology $185,000
Rheumatology $176,000
All Doctors $175,000

To put it another way: how many earn above $300,000 in income (after expenses and before taxes) per year:
Invasive Cardiology 75%
Non Invasive Cardiology 54%
Orthopedics 50%
Urology 50%
Ophthalmology 58%
Dermatology 54%
General Surgery 27%
Ob/Gyn 22%
All US physicians 21%
All Primary Care physicians 12%

Yet another perspective is comparison to other US wage earners in 2005: Cardiologists, Gastroenterologists, Ob/Gyn, Most Medical subspecialists earn at the 96-99th percentile of all US citizens. All physicians in aggregate earn at about the 95th percentile of all taxpayers. Even the 'lowly' primary care specialists earn above the 92nd percentile.

Clearly, nobody other than another physician would make the case, with a straight face, that US doctors need more reimbursement. Common rejoinders include indebtedness, hours of work, importance to society, delayed earnings and the need to recruit the best and brightest. Even worst case scenarios of over $200,000 in school debt equates to monthly payments of about $2,000 (say $25,000 per year for twenty years), hardly putting a dent in earnings. As to importance or hours of work, many jobs are 'important' and require dedication. How much to firemen, policemen, teachers make? How long until a PhD scientist reaches his or her full earnings potential? Should doctors strive to make as much as the most highly paid lawyers and most successful businessmen? Oughtn't they engage in their profession to heal the sick, find meaning in the magical, intimate moments that we are privileged to be a part of? Yes, doctors should be comfortable and be able to enjoy the fruits of their labors, but at some point we cross the line into unseemly economic stratospheres. People became doctors for generations without the expectation of becoming out and out wealthy. Those are the sort of people we should be recruiting, not those who expect to be rich.

Competing interests: None declared"


Also, apparently docs in Italy make ~$100,000 but have to pay 40% tax. Germany is ridiculously low in pay-- maybe 50K huge taxes. UK docs have like 50-60% tax (paid 100,000 pounds which is about $200,000), while Israel is about the same (net salary of 20-25K!!!). I think US docs are going to earn much much less in the mid-to far future.

I wouldn't be averse to a 20-30% pay cut spread out over 40 years caused by stopping indexing for inflation, especially if it allows more people to have coverage... but what is really concerning is that successive presidents have cut more like 7-10% a year (notwithstanding inflation) AND they've severely cut funding for teaching new med students and residents. I think Bush proposed eliminating all GRE funding in the next budget... That kind of cutting will have bad consequences...
 

Tiagao

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Since when does a professor understand the economics of becoming a physician. Most of those people have their grad school paid for and get to start "practice" as soon as they finish their degree. I think if such professors had to go through another 3 to 7 years after they earn their degree before they really start to earn some money, they would sing a different tune. That's not to mention that most docs have a good amt. of student debt to pay off before they can even get in the black.

Maybe I'm bitter, but I have just had too many professors bash docs because of the $$, but how many would do what it takes to get there. Cash is nice, but its not a sufficient reason to become a physician.
 

bkpa2med

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Also, apparently docs in Italy make ~$100,000 but have to pay 40% tax. Germany is ridiculously low in pay-- maybe 50K huge taxes. UK docs have like 50-60% tax (paid 100,000 pounds which is about $200,000), while Israel is about the same (net salary of 20-25K!!!). I think US docs are going to earn much much less in the mid-to far future.

If the doc in Italy takes home 60,000 Euro/year he/she will be living it up because 60k euro is a crazy amount in Europe where the average Joe, lets say in Italy and Greece, earn 600 euro/month.
 

t33sg1rl

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And how many of you have actually ASKED your attendings how much money they make??

No... but one FP volunteered the digits. She opened a practice 5 years ago with 2 FP classmates and they are each making about 75K and thinking about shutting down.

I also know two IM's, in their 60s with a solid patient base, in a group practice of 8, who each see 45+ patients daily. These two both pulled in over 300, just by being very efficient, not wasting time talking to patients about their petty little problems, paying their MA's minimum wage, taking drug company perks, and working like dogs.
 

thewebthsp

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There's a nice article about this by Gawande in the New Yorker.

Basically if you want to, you can pander to the cash only crowd and call yourself one of the best.

Most are uncomfortable doing that because the vast majority of people generally still use insurance, and docs dont want to force patients to beg their insurance companies for reimbursement. I generally agree that most patients aren't appropriate candidates for such a system. I'm a little surprised more young docs tho don't just forego insurance.

The problem mainly lies in the bureacracy of the insurance companies and the fact they deny 30% of all claims. (I had to fight my own insuirance company for 3 consecutive claims! twice cause they misspelled my name!!!)
 

Gem134

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Dynx,

Where did you pull the numbers for 20,000 FP salary in ID? I can't access any info on that link.

$75,000 for FP? That is insane. On the other hand, I can't see 45 patients in a day, everyday. I don't seem to like clinic very much as it turns out, and am starting to freak out about finding something I can do that 1) I actually like, and 2) will support me and my family to be, and 3) is not the most competitive thing in the world, since I do not have a 260 on step I, and seem to be evolving into a very average applicant. :(

A FP person told me you can make like 299,000 but I think they were just trying to BS. They told me their own actualy salary was closer to 100,000.
 

Dr JPH

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Ask your attendings how much money they make. I think you will be suprised in most cases.
 

DrLawyerIndianChief

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Since when does a professor understand the economics of becoming a physician. Most of those people have their grad school paid for and get to start "practice" as soon as they finish their degree. I think if such professors had to go through another 3 to 7 years after they earn their degree before they really start to earn some money, they would sing a different tune. That's not to mention that most docs have a good amt. of student debt to pay off before they can even get in the black.

Maybe I'm bitter, but I have just had too many professors bash docs because of the $$, but how many would do what it takes to get there. Cash is nice, but its not a sufficient reason to become a physician.
Professors have a captive audience, at their mercy for grades. Tell me they know d$$$ about what a physician makes, or SHOULD, make as a reasonable salary.
 

DrLawyerIndianChief

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:eek:


From BMJ article, a Yale prof writes:

"Bearing in mind that the median US income is in the $30,000 range and taking a look at the below medians from a recent issue of Medical Economics, I say doctors in the US, at least earn too much. Likely a redistribution from procedurists to primary care would be useful, but the overall pie is very large. Doctors should be comfortable, not rich.

2005 Median Total Compensation

Invasive cardiology $400,000
Noninvasive cardiology $325,000
GI $300,000
Ortho $300,000
Urology $300,000
Ophthalmology $280,000
Dermatology $254,000
General Surgery $225,000
Nephrology $210,000
OB/GYN $210,000
Allergy $200,000
Endocrinology $185,000
Rheumatology $176,000
All Doctors $175,000

To put it another way: how many earn above $300,000 in income (after expenses and before taxes) per year:
Invasive Cardiology 75%
Non Invasive Cardiology 54%
Orthopedics 50%
Urology 50%
Ophthalmology 58%
Dermatology 54%
General Surgery 27%
Ob/Gyn 22%
All US physicians 21%
All Primary Care physicians 12%

Yet another perspective is comparison to other US wage earners in 2005: Cardiologists, Gastroenterologists, Ob/Gyn, Most Medical subspecialists earn at the 96-99th percentile of all US citizens. All physicians in aggregate earn at about the 95th percentile of all taxpayers. Even the 'lowly' primary care specialists earn above the 92nd percentile.

Clearly, nobody other than another physician would make the case, with a straight face, that US doctors need more reimbursement. Common rejoinders include indebtedness, hours of work, importance to society, delayed earnings and the need to recruit the best and brightest. Even worst case scenarios of over $200,000 in school debt equates to monthly payments of about $2,000 (say $25,000 per year for twenty years), hardly putting a dent in earnings. As to importance or hours of work, many jobs are 'important' and require dedication. How much to firemen, policemen, teachers make? How long until a PhD scientist reaches his or her full earnings potential? Should doctors strive to make as much as the most highly paid lawyers and most successful businessmen? Oughtn't they engage in their profession to heal the sick, find meaning in the magical, intimate moments that we are privileged to be a part of? Yes, doctors should be comfortable and be able to enjoy the fruits of their labors, but at some point we cross the line into unseemly economic stratospheres. People became doctors for generations without the expectation of becoming out and out wealthy. Those are the sort of people we should be recruiting, not those who expect to be rich.

Competing interests: None declared"


Also, apparently docs in Italy make ~$100,000 but have to pay 40% tax. Germany is ridiculously low in pay-- maybe 50K huge taxes. UK docs have like 50-60% tax (paid 100,000 pounds which is about $200,000), while Israel is about the same (net salary of 20-25K!!!). I think US docs are going to earn much much less in the mid-to far future.

I wouldn't be averse to a 20-30% pay cut spread out over 40 years caused by stopping indexing for inflation, especially if it allows more people to have coverage... but what is really concerning is that successive presidents have cut more like 7-10% a year (notwithstanding inflation) AND they've severely cut funding for teaching new med students and residents. I think Bush proposed eliminating all GRE funding in the next budget... That kind of cutting will have bad consequences...
Are you insane or merely bitter? What's wrong with $? Go into medicine to heal the sick? OK, but, as most Philly residents would say: FU, Pay me!
 
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