What kind of salary do you need to make after residency to live fairly comfortably and pay back loans at the same time? If my debt is 250K, what would be the needed income to just have a normal life (house, car, kids)? What about 300K in debt? Anyone with experience out there care to comment?
Salary needed to pay off enormous student loans
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Depends on where you live.
If you live somewhere where rent or a mortage is in the hundreds of dollars versus the thousands of dollars, you will need more income to pay off those loans.
Depends on your malpractice. If you pay $20K/year then you can pay off your loans easier than if you pay $100K.
Depends on what you think is comfortable.
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This is the very reason that companies like Sallie Mae and the institutions of higher learning in this country are thriving. This is America where the rich reap their gains off the backs of the poor and gullible. With all the corruption in the loan industry, it is only a matter of time before the student loan crisis emerges in the next 10-20 years. Oh, and don't forget the interest building on that 250K. I am sorry, but with the average primary care salary hovering around 150K, having to pay back 250K and up just blows my mind! Most importantly, THESE LOANS WILL FOLLOW YOU TO THE GRAVE. Unlike the current housing mortgage situation where you can just walk away from your sunk investment, there is no walking away from these loans! These loans are very dangerous and an entirely different animal! Yep, you heard me right... student loans can be dangerous- but surely you will never hear that from colleges and banks since they will tell you that these loans are an investment for your future. <wink> <wink>. Unless you are lucky or smart enough to specialize, you will be carrying a really heavy ball and chain around your neck. The bottom line is that there are so many other 100K jobs out there without all the stress and debt, that going into medicine is for the future mother theresa's. God bless 'em.
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I have to agree, that these loans are terrifying.
Let's assume $250K, at 8%, for 20 years. I made up those last two figures.
That comes to $2090 per month x 20 years. On top of the $250K in principal, you also pay $251K in interest over the life of the loan.
The easiest way to think about this is as a yearly cost. $2090 x 12 = $25080 per year of your salary going towards your loan, so you'd be living off of $125K. Still, doing much better than most of the US public.
If the interest rate jumps to 12% --> annual payment = $33K
If you get a sweet 4% --> annual payment = $18K
If the interest is 8% but they make you pay it back in 10 years --> annual payment = $36K
You can use any web based loan calculator to figure these numbers out.
Let's assume $250K, at 8%, for 20 years. I made up those last two figures.
That comes to $2090 per month x 20 years. On top of the $250K in principal, you also pay $251K in interest over the life of the loan.
The easiest way to think about this is as a yearly cost. $2090 x 12 = $25080 per year of your salary going towards your loan, so you'd be living off of $125K. Still, doing much better than most of the US public.
If the interest rate jumps to 12% --> annual payment = $33K
If you get a sweet 4% --> annual payment = $18K
If the interest is 8% but they make you pay it back in 10 years --> annual payment = $36K
You can use any web based loan calculator to figure these numbers out.
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A lot of money
Then you are playing with fire.
Then you are playing with fire while soaked in gasoline.
There is a section in the fafsa application where they tell you how much you need to make for a certain amount of debt to avoid "economic hardship". For 300k debt, they expect you to make about 300k/yr. What does this mean? The very government that is working hard to reduce physician income is also warning you not to get any ideas about not making good money if you plan on taking loans for school.
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We should start calling these things what they really are: indentured servitude where institutions of higher learning and banks saddle the average American with a lifetime of debt to enhance their bottom lines. I talked to an FMG from India a couple of weeks ago. His tuition was ($200? $2000?)...I forget the specific multiple of 10, but it certainly wasn't $20,000.
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Agree with those who said it depends on where you live.
In places like SF, Manhattan, Boston and West LA, to buy a house, service 300K in debt and raise a family with 2 kids and a non working spouse you would need on the order of around 350K/yr (perhaps 500K even for Manhattan/SF) to live a middle class existence due to housing.
But if you are in central Kansas, you could probably get away with making 200K or even 150K in places that are really depressed like Detroit.
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And don't forget-- these are *post-tax* dollars we're talking about to service these loans.
One option-- you don't have to go crazy as soon as you're an attending. Live a modest lifestyle (like you're doing now, as a resident), and devote more than the minimum to servicing the loans. While educational debt is perceived more positively by the lending/credit industry than other types of indebtedness, it will still be a red flag when it comes time for mortgages, personal loans, etc. If you cast aside the dreams of the mini-mansion and multiple plasmas and pricy (rapidly depreciating) cars, you can get these off your back much more quickly.
One option-- you don't have to go crazy as soon as you're an attending. Live a modest lifestyle (like you're doing now, as a resident), and devote more than the minimum to servicing the loans. While educational debt is perceived more positively by the lending/credit industry than other types of indebtedness, it will still be a red flag when it comes time for mortgages, personal loans, etc. If you cast aside the dreams of the mini-mansion and multiple plasmas and pricy (rapidly depreciating) cars, you can get these off your back much more quickly.
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I agree that the student loans are scary. the amount of debt some people are carrying is staggering. However, I do think some of the posts on here are overblown. First of all, I think the idea that one would need 300k/year to live "comfortable middle class life" anywhere in the US is patently ridiculous. I can tell you that my family lived a "comfortable middle class life" with dad never bringing home more than 105k (and that was the year we said 'daddy's rich!').
Some more reasonable numbers for you.
I went to med school 2000-2004. I borrowed all of my tuition...so 132total. I started paying off my loans about 3-4 months after I graduated. I had consolidated them when I graduated and went for the 30 year repayment plan (which is what most med students do). I got a 2.9% interest rate (it WAS a good year, but I do think the 8% someone posted above is an unrealistic estimate, isn't it?). My student loan payment is $540/month, which I could afford on a resident's salary (but if you're having a rough time, it's easy to ask for forbearance from your lender, in which case you don't have to pay but the interest will keep on building up). I am now doing a fellowship and again, it's easy to afford my payment on my fellow's salary...but no new car, no fancy vacations, and no big house, etc. I do think that it would not be realistic to expect to be raising a family during residency/fellowship with that kind of debt unless your spouse is willing to work. This is how most people/couples in the world have to live their lives anyway.
I DO however agree that we are getting close to the carrying capacity of what the students will be able to bear. 200k debt may be something that can be dealt with, but 300k perhaps not.
Best advice I have is to try and borrow the maximum gov't supported/stafford loans before you consider any private loans that don't have good interest rates.
Some more reasonable numbers for you.
I went to med school 2000-2004. I borrowed all of my tuition...so 132total. I started paying off my loans about 3-4 months after I graduated. I had consolidated them when I graduated and went for the 30 year repayment plan (which is what most med students do). I got a 2.9% interest rate (it WAS a good year, but I do think the 8% someone posted above is an unrealistic estimate, isn't it?). My student loan payment is $540/month, which I could afford on a resident's salary (but if you're having a rough time, it's easy to ask for forbearance from your lender, in which case you don't have to pay but the interest will keep on building up). I am now doing a fellowship and again, it's easy to afford my payment on my fellow's salary...but no new car, no fancy vacations, and no big house, etc. I do think that it would not be realistic to expect to be raising a family during residency/fellowship with that kind of debt unless your spouse is willing to work. This is how most people/couples in the world have to live their lives anyway.
I DO however agree that we are getting close to the carrying capacity of what the students will be able to bear. 200k debt may be something that can be dealt with, but 300k perhaps not.
Best advice I have is to try and borrow the maximum gov't supported/stafford loans before you consider any private loans that don't have good interest rates.
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WRT interest rates, docs already out of school need to understand that the federal government FIXED interest rates on student loans in 2006. Any student loan disbursed after July 1, 2006 has a fixed interest rate: 6.8% for Staffords and 8.5% for GradPlus. If you're borrowing $250-300K, that's a whole lot of GradPlus, so 7.5% is probably a reasonable estimate. You can't "consolidate at a low rate"! That's OVER.
The other thing you need to understand, OP -- and forgive me if you get this already, but a lot of students don't -- is that your debt is accruing interest while you're not paying and that accrued interest is added to your principle when you capitalize your debt. So if you borrow $250K in principle, you'll probably owe more like $300K when you graduate from medical school ... and your principle will increase roughly $18K/year during your residency, if you're in forbearance. So. Your debt when you capitalize and begin repayment may be more like $350K (assuming a three year residency), at roughly 7.5%. You can pay this over 30 years, and your payments will be almost $2500 or $30K/year. You can easily expect your total tax bite to be 30-40% (maybe more), so you'll need to earn $40-50K just to pay your student loans. I actually think that's the best way to think about the "how much money do I need to earn?" question ... take the salary you'd like to earn, then add $50K. That's a decent estimate of what you need to earn.
Yikes.
The other thing you need to understand, OP -- and forgive me if you get this already, but a lot of students don't -- is that your debt is accruing interest while you're not paying and that accrued interest is added to your principle when you capitalize your debt. So if you borrow $250K in principle, you'll probably owe more like $300K when you graduate from medical school ... and your principle will increase roughly $18K/year during your residency, if you're in forbearance. So. Your debt when you capitalize and begin repayment may be more like $350K (assuming a three year residency), at roughly 7.5%. You can pay this over 30 years, and your payments will be almost $2500 or $30K/year. You can easily expect your total tax bite to be 30-40% (maybe more), so you'll need to earn $40-50K just to pay your student loans. I actually think that's the best way to think about the "how much money do I need to earn?" question ... take the salary you'd like to earn, then add $50K. That's a decent estimate of what you need to earn.
Yikes.
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wow, yadayada,
I stand corrected. I did not know that Staffords have 6.8% interest rate now. That sucks. Do they still have the "subsidized stafford" where the gov't pays your interest for you (while you are in school and for the first 6 months after graduation)? That is actually pretty helpful if they still have that program.
I think the student loan situation is bad, but I worry that we might scare off premeds from entering medicine, and I don't think it's QUITE that bad yet, as most docs still make a good income after being finished with residency. However, primary care docs have taken too many hits in recent years, in terms of flat incomes...that is definitely true.
I do think it is super important for all premeds to think about the financial implications of going to med school vs. other careers, though, and also I think people should in general go to the cheapest medical school you can get in to, as long as it's pretty OK (and I'd say 90% of them are probably all the same in terms of teaching). Unless you want to be a dermatologist on the Harvard faculty it is probably unnecessary to go to Harvard or UCSF..definitely not to George Washington U or another random private school just because it is a private school.
I stand corrected. I did not know that Staffords have 6.8% interest rate now. That sucks. Do they still have the "subsidized stafford" where the gov't pays your interest for you (while you are in school and for the first 6 months after graduation)? That is actually pretty helpful if they still have that program.
I think the student loan situation is bad, but I worry that we might scare off premeds from entering medicine, and I don't think it's QUITE that bad yet, as most docs still make a good income after being finished with residency. However, primary care docs have taken too many hits in recent years, in terms of flat incomes...that is definitely true.
I do think it is super important for all premeds to think about the financial implications of going to med school vs. other careers, though, and also I think people should in general go to the cheapest medical school you can get in to, as long as it's pretty OK (and I'd say 90% of them are probably all the same in terms of teaching). Unless you want to be a dermatologist on the Harvard faculty it is probably unnecessary to go to Harvard or UCSF..definitely not to George Washington U or another random private school just because it is a private school.
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They do still have subsidized stafford loans, but the max available is 8,500 per year. That still leaves a sizeable chunck of my loans unsubsidized....
I am certainly not alone in this. Take a look at this if you haven't seen this thread from the osteopathic forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=524798
My wife and I have tried to be smart with our money and some of our loans have gone toward home improvement that adds to our equity and will get back. We also chose a school in a part of the country with a low cost of living when we had other options on both coasts. We drive used cars with a total combined cost of ~$8000. The fact is, school is really expensive. Tuition has risen every year by at least $2000, which really makes me angry. I think if I knew then what I knew now...
Anyway, just trying to figure out what I'm going to need to do to make a modest living and get out of debt. Is it so wrong to want to drive a new car (not talking BMW or Mercedes... just a Toyota or Honda) someday after going through all of this crap?!🙄
My wife and I have tried to be smart with our money and some of our loans have gone toward home improvement that adds to our equity and will get back. We also chose a school in a part of the country with a low cost of living when we had other options on both coasts. We drive used cars with a total combined cost of ~$8000. The fact is, school is really expensive. Tuition has risen every year by at least $2000, which really makes me angry. I think if I knew then what I knew now...
Anyway, just trying to figure out what I'm going to need to do to make a modest living and get out of debt. Is it so wrong to want to drive a new car (not talking BMW or Mercedes... just a Toyota or Honda) someday after going through all of this crap?!🙄
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I'm not getting this. If I'm paying 25k in loans per year, doesn't that still put me far and above your average educated worker? Even if I only made 150k, like was pointed out above, I'm still left with 125k at the end of the year. Take a third of that away for taxes and I'm now left with over 80k. That is pretty damned good, considering the crap that we had to live through while scrounging for cash before getting our MD and beginning our own practice.
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I really don't think so.
Remember that you pay your student loans with after tax dollars. So if you make $150K gross, expect that to be whittled down to close to $95K net (35% total tax bite). Then you pay $25K (in your example), leaving you with more like $70K after taxes and loans. This is roughly the same as someone with no student loans making $100-110K before taxes. To me, assuming at least seven post-undergraduate years of training ... I don't think $100K is "far and above" what's available in other professions for the same number of years of training, unless by "average educated worker" you're thinking of someone with a PhD in the humanities. My husband is almost through his PhD (six years) and he will make much more than $100K. His degree was funded by a fellowship and he has no student loans.
I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing, but come back and revisit this idea once you've pulled a couple of 30 hour call shifts. I'm still a medical student -- haven't lived through intern year yet -- and I definitely don't think it's anything like "pretty damned good". It might not even be adequate.
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Don't get me wrong. It's not like we're rich, but people were making doctors' financial situation and their loans to be
...
...
...and
Basically, I feel like people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I could do just fine on 70k/yr today. In fact, I'd be happy with that (and 70k is on the bottom half of the net medical pay spectrum). And this is coming from someone whose father is wealthy.
We're disagreeing because we ascribe different values to money. I would be fine with 70k, and you wouldn't, period. I suppose I should consider myself lucky. 😀
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Being from a wealthy family may make you less concerned about money. That will likely make you a happier person. I don't think 70K is bad either but making 70K after medschool and residency and being saddled with loans is a different story. That also doesn't take into account the lost earning years spent in school and training. I have friends who have been building their IRAs since the first year after college.
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Its not like you get to walk up and get to keep your 70k just like that. Find a reasonable way to make 70k go around with 300k of loans at 7%, a few kids, a mortgage, and a retirement to pay for. If you know how, like it sounds like you do, tell us. We're all interested in hearing, believe me.
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Well, me too. Have and do. All I'm saying is, becoming a doctor isn't a trip to Disneyland. It's long and hard. It's a lot of years of long and hard. And most of the time, it's nowhere near as fun and fulfilling and magical as it seemed like it was going to be. So there comes a point for most of us when we start to think we ought to make a better-than-decent living at the end of it all. Because we'll still be working long and hard after we finish training. You'll see.
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Dude, you need to snap out of this funk before you hurt yourself and your family.
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there are programs out there. whether or not you think they're worth it is another thing. the 1st thing is to read the fine print. there are a few that may advertise they'll pay a certain amount... but then it really turns out that's the most they'd pay if you hit certain "performance" goals. also, there are many programs that you pay your loans as usual... then you get reimbursed.
that's not to say that all programs are like this or that all programs are bad. but just know that there are some that are like that.
honestly, once the end of residency is upon you, i think you should really concentrate on finding the best job for you, rather than hoping to find a job that will repay loans. from a financial standpoint, i'd bet your take home salary will be less in a program with loan repayment than a job in the same area without loan repayment. the money's gotta come from somewhere!
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Just to reiterate what yayadude said, you have to take away your third (or 35% or whatever) for taxes (federal, state and local) before you take out the 25k in loans. Meaning you are paying taxes on the money you are going to use to pay student loans. So you aren't left with 80k after you take out a third, you are left with 75k, or as the above poster suggested 70k if the tax rate is high. These student loans aren't tax free amounts. You might get a deduction for some of the interest if your salary doesn't exceed a certain amount (which it probably does), but generally, you pay taxes on the money you are going to pay the debt with.
Which I guess is still a fine salary if, as mentioned, you live in small town Kansas. But not a whole lot if you are trying to live in SF or a similar high cost of living location, paying a mortgage, have a car loan, etc. A lot of the folks who had prior careers were earning more than this and still had a fairly modest lifestyle. You will pay all your bills for necessities, but still have to live on a tight budget for anything else. Which after a decade of med school and training isn't really doing that well.
I've gotta say that if your debt is $300k and the average interest you are paying is over 7%, it is going to have a huge impact on your lifestyle. But if a particular specialty is what you want to do, you will make it work by doing without certain things. I think focusing on "what salary will I need" is nonproductive because you have to pick what you want to do and make it work, not pick something based on servicing debt. If that were the point, you could be $300k ahead from day one by just foregoing medicine in the first place.
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Have you even read the thread? That 70k figure that we came up with was AFTER taxes and loans had been paid smart guy. You fail. 👎 To the lion's pit!
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Considering how much you're worrying about the money, rather than doing something you love, I'd say the same thing to you. Having fewer loans off to pay at the end of the day does not make you happy if you've just spent 12 hours doing something you hate. When it comes down to it, you're always at least 12 hours away from going back to Hell. But hey! At least you've got money you can't spend! ammirite?
N
nsx
Considering how much you're worrying about the money, rather than doing something you love, I'd say the same thing to you. Having fewer loans off to pay at the end of the day does not make you happy if you've just spent 12 hours doing something you hate. When it comes down to it, you're always at least 12 hours away from going back to Hell. But hey! At least you've got money you can't spend! ammirite?
Do you always react like this when you're wrong about something? You're not expected to know everything yet, try to learn from the answer instead of getting pissed off. Good lord.
p.s. I posted this bc your username annoys me
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heck 300K is a drop in the bucket...Just look at the new thread about the doctor/lawyer couple who owe over a half million dollars😱
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That's actually not as bad as this situation, because the lawyer will potentially start earning, and repaying debt much sooner than the typical doctor who still has an extra year of med school and then 3-7 years of residency and maybe a fellowship on top before they are earning enough to service debt. I would rather be in a couple with a half mill in debt and one spouse in the work force servicing at least some of the debt than having one person owe $300k but not be earning enough to service debt for another 5+ years. Compounding interest will kill you, and a dual income will let you pay down even a much higher debt much more rapidly.
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however, there is a problem- she can't find a decent paying lawyer job.
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Their problem is she wants to live in Manhattan. She's wanted to live there "my entire life". Sorry, but with highly successful, well educated lawyers on every corner in Manhattan she needs to do what the advisor told them; leave Manhattan and go where the jobs are, even if that means Buffalo.
I looked at jobs in Manhattan as well. Frankly, the salaries that are being offered for surgeons would not be enough to purchase even a decent studio in midtown. Didn't take a financial advisor to point that out to me.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Based on the responses from all of you knowledgeable and experienced individuals, having so much debt is clearly not a great situation to be in. but let's assume that someone (me) is already attending a very expensive medical school and is looking at ending up in the 200-300k debt range. I'm already in school, so "going to a cheaper school" is not really an option. what can i do about it? listening to everyone in this thread, it sounds like i'm in a less than optimal position, and i'm not doubting that. but there are at least 100+ other people in my class that are probably in a similar situation, plus previous graduating classes from my school, plus other schools with a similar COA. so i'm just wondering what other people do? are my peers and i doomed to be poor for the rest of our lives? having that much debt looming in front of me really feels intimidating right now, so i would love to hear from anyone with advice or anecdotes or something? i don't need to live like a baller, but is my life really going to be as bad as all that?
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Poor is a relative term. You are probably doomed to the middle class for the rest of your life, unless you move to a very low cost of living area or find a very lucrative niche practice.. The 20% of your class who are in this situation but match into the lucrative competitive specialties will do better. Another 20% will marry rich or well paid spouses and do better. But yeah, debt is a really scary thing and you'd be kidding yourself to think that a $300k debt wasn't going to have a huge impact on your life.
A recent AMSA article focused on the likely impact huge debt would have on the number of folks choosing to go into primary care or work in community practices. But I think that sort of glossed over the fact that a good percentage of folks coming out of school are going to end up in primary care fields regardless of whether they are their top choices, and this is only likely to increase as med schools increase their ranks while residency slots in better paying specialties aren't.
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winged scapula said it best, you can't have your cake and eat it too..
if you specialize, your loans are NOT an issue, period point blank. even at at unrealistic 7%.
if you are in primary care, lets say pedes, fp, or im:
lets say you bring 150k in the door, at the end of the day, meaning this is your net profit (you or your corp) AFTER taking every possible deduction..
lets say your total federal/state/local liability totals some 33%... in the interest of round numbers.
you are left with 100k in disposable income.
i am assuming you have allready contributed to your sep or ira (non roth in this case) or whatever pre-tax pension you have set up..
so you have 100k to play with..
lets break it down:
if you are living in an average 4 bed 3.5 bath in suburbia USA, depending on lots of factors lets say that home will cost you 400k on average. in some places less, in some more. lets play the middle.
depending on where the rate is in the next few years, lets say you end up at 7% on your 30 year money. 7% on 400k plus taxes/insurance will chew up
36k.
you now have a home, and 64k to spend.
lets not forget: your home will have maintenance! lets set aside 4k, which really barely covers it.
60k left, but you have a roof over your head.
now we need a way to get around. lets face it, you will always have a car payment because you will always want a car less than 5-6 years old.. most of us that is:
a new f150 will run around 35k fully equipped, likewise a lower end 3 series BMW.. so with insurance the 2 cars will run us about: 20k per year.
now we are down to 40k...
oops what about gas and maintenance on those? about $600 total per month:
down to 33k..
and we havent eaten, or clothed ourselves, or had a baby, or 2 or 3, bought a tv, couch, bed, etc etc, household goods, vacations, etc etc..
oops what about those student loan payments, that nagging credit card debt??? child support/alimony?? hobbies?
pretty grim..
not trying to scare anyone, but its HARD to make 150k work unless A)you have no kids, or B)you have a spouse bringing $$ in the door. C)you are very lucky in your investing.
if you specialize, your loans are NOT an issue, period point blank. even at at unrealistic 7%.
if you are in primary care, lets say pedes, fp, or im:
lets say you bring 150k in the door, at the end of the day, meaning this is your net profit (you or your corp) AFTER taking every possible deduction..
lets say your total federal/state/local liability totals some 33%... in the interest of round numbers.
you are left with 100k in disposable income.
i am assuming you have allready contributed to your sep or ira (non roth in this case) or whatever pre-tax pension you have set up..
so you have 100k to play with..
lets break it down:
if you are living in an average 4 bed 3.5 bath in suburbia USA, depending on lots of factors lets say that home will cost you 400k on average. in some places less, in some more. lets play the middle.
depending on where the rate is in the next few years, lets say you end up at 7% on your 30 year money. 7% on 400k plus taxes/insurance will chew up
36k.
you now have a home, and 64k to spend.
lets not forget: your home will have maintenance! lets set aside 4k, which really barely covers it.
60k left, but you have a roof over your head.
now we need a way to get around. lets face it, you will always have a car payment because you will always want a car less than 5-6 years old.. most of us that is:
a new f150 will run around 35k fully equipped, likewise a lower end 3 series BMW.. so with insurance the 2 cars will run us about: 20k per year.
now we are down to 40k...
oops what about gas and maintenance on those? about $600 total per month:
down to 33k..
and we havent eaten, or clothed ourselves, or had a baby, or 2 or 3, bought a tv, couch, bed, etc etc, household goods, vacations, etc etc..
oops what about those student loan payments, that nagging credit card debt??? child support/alimony?? hobbies?
pretty grim..
not trying to scare anyone, but its HARD to make 150k work unless A)you have no kids, or B)you have a spouse bringing $$ in the door. C)you are very lucky in your investing.
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...and you have neglected to add in malpractice insurance, health insurance, cost of CMEs, license and credentialing...
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in my mind, those are included under deductions, but you really need an awesome cpa to play the game well.
the right cpa can make or break you, and are worth their weight in gold.
still, no matter how you cut it, there are so many expenses we dont consider.. they end up going on a random credit card 😕
the right cpa can make or break you, and are worth their weight in gold.
still, no matter how you cut it, there are so many expenses we dont consider.. they end up going on a random credit card 😕
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If that's the case, they would be earning well over $200K, which is possible, but not common in many areas especially for the primary care specialties. Obviously deductible but end up reducing your net profit a fair amount.
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Unrealistic?
7% is the reality since rates went up in 2006. Personally I will have about 220K @ 7%.
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you are paying 7% for non private consolidated government loans?!
i am way out of the loop then, i consolidated for 3.25% i had no idea rates had climbed that high for these... my apologies.
in that case its even more grim 🙁
i am way out of the loop then, i consolidated for 3.25% i had no idea rates had climbed that high for these... my apologies.
in that case its even more grim 🙁
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With all due respect, I guess I'm not following you? As I have read it, the majority of people in this thread have said that such a large amount of debt is a big negative (in so many words). I am agreeing with that idea. The only way I can imagine that you and I are disagreeing with each other is if you are saying that having 200-300k in student loans is not something to be concerned about? People describing the situation as "terrifying" and likening it to "playing with fire while doused in gasoline" seem like frightening appraisals to me. As far as anything else, I'm just an MS1 worried about his future financial situation? 😕
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Easy on the haterade buddy.
While you're not as short sighted as you originally sounded, there's still plenty of opportunity costs that the 70k doesn't cover.
It still bothers me that someone could find a fixed income reasonable in spite of general inflation and, even worse, tuition inflation, which manages to rise even faster.
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I'm in pretty much the same place, half-way finished with a residency in Psychiatry. Hopefully, when I finish the Child and Adolescent fellowship I'll be making as much as people are saying.
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Notice how NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is addressing the massive white elephant in the room??
Why have higher education especially professional school costs outpaced ALL ECONOMIC INDICATORS including supposed spiraling healthcare costs at such an obscene rate for the last 10-20 years?
Why are med schools getting away with charging 50K/year to even precipitate this crisis to begin with??
Higher education is becoming a lucrative scam that will go down in American History as the greatest conspiracy ever perpetrated on US citizens. Funny only now is the big name media like WSJ, Forbes, Money etc picking up on this.
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I agree that the inflated cost of all higher education is somewhat of a scam. I didn't believe it actually should be costing my school 33k/year to educate me back in 2000-2001, and I don't believe it costs 40 or 50k/year now, particularly not for 3rd or 4th year, where the student is basically a free laborer at least 2/3 of every day anyway.
p.s. the 182k/year quoted in the article for a primary care doc's salary seems inflated to me...I don't know many who make that much.
p.s. the 182k/year quoted in the article for a primary care doc's salary seems inflated to me...I don't know many who make that much.
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It's not going to be addressed because it's assumed that prospective students, for undergrad and pro school, are deciding to attend and pay tuition because they are expecting to make more down the road. It's (theoretically) a voluntary business decision.
In general the public doesn't care too much about the plight of college students. And if you somehow mandate that universities charge less they will turn around and stick it to their underpriveledged population (and they'll publicize that that's what they were "forced" to do).
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Some have argued that the easy availability of large amounts of student loan funding has led to universities inflating their tuition (would apply to undergrad and med or other graduate schools as well). I think this is probably true. In other words, there aren't that many people who can cough up 50k/year to send junior to George Washington U, but if they can pay 15k/year and he can easily get 35k/year in student loans, then it's pretty easy for him to go there. Years ago (say the 1960's or 1970's) college tuition was much more reasonable. People might take out student loans, but if they did it would be for a much more modest amount. I think the colleges and med and law schools, etc. have no incentive to hold down costs - instead they just keep building more manicured lawns, new buildings and fancier gyms, etc.
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Yes but things that Democrat reformists like Ted Kennedy dream about..offering universal health care on demand...are only possible when education is essentially completely FREE like it is in the EU.
You cannot demand healthcare change with the corresponding lower physician salary and at the same time allow education costs to be racheted up to obscene levels...Im mean seriously 50K to educate a medical student?! What are they doing, offering hotel suites complete with hookers and blow to justify that cost?!
Hence why academics rags at places like Harvard are the biggest hypocrites of the modern era, somehow..somehow (LMAO) they can imagine a more socially just manner to distribute healthcare but cannot help from raising tuition, business decision or not. They very much operate like for profits with non-profit status, which when called on it is the real reason why they got scared and threw some peanuts to incoming IV league undergrads..
