PhD/PsyD Salary requirment question

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erg923

erg923

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Probably difficult to answer but interested in the responses:

What would you deem as a reasonably salary requirement for a Clinical Director position at a free-standing detox and residential substance abuse facility (32 bed capacity, mostly commercial insurance based) in the Midwest? Oversees 15-20 staff. The position is essentially the second most senior leader on site. The facility administrator being the person's only superior/supervisor.
 
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shooter said:
125-150k
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Agreed. An important lesson that I learned from the RN who worked for me when I worked as a clinical director was that I should have been more thoughtful in how I negotiated for the requirements of the position itself. In other words, approach this somewhat like a site survey where you identify the areas that would need to be changed or addressed to ensure ethical or optimal practice. It is not like the VA where all the policies are set in immutable stone 🙂 I am almost certain that you will be able to identify problematic areas that will need to be addressed and you won't want to have to fight all of those battles later like I did.
Good luck erg and also make sure they appreciate your humor which shouldn't be too much of a problem with the substance abuse population. 😉
 
I was going to say 130,000 per year.
 
I'd say 200k, but I don't know much about that kind of stuff.

You might ask about vicarious liability (which is a term you should look up) depending on your state, at least as a bargaining tool. If you're 20,30,40, 50% liable for your underlings, it makes sense to be paid accordingly.
 
Substance abuse doesn't pay as well as mental health, reimbursements are from a different benefit and not as high.
 
Some key things to look for are how clear the boundaries are between the various staff and their roles. Are unlicensed staff doing therapy? Are there inter-professional conflicts that will need to be addressed? Are staff using confrontational approaches that research has demonstrated ineffective? How is the relationship between the professional and the community-based 12step groups handled and are there healthy boundaries there? What is your vision of substance abuse treatment and how closely does it align with the site and where it differs is that a matter of preference or are they doing stuff that doesn't make sense and will have to be changed and does your employer want you to have the vision or is it just theirs?
 
LMK said:
Substance abuse doesn't pay as well as mental health, reimbursements are from a different benefit and not as high.
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suboxone tx is paying big time
 
smalltownpsych said:
Agreed. An important lesson that I learned from the RN who worked for me when I worked as a clinical director was that I should have been more thoughtful in how I negotiated for the requirements of the position itself. In other words, approach this somewhat like a site survey where you identify the areas that would need to be changed or addressed to ensure ethical or optimal practice. It is not like the VA where all the policies are set in immutable stone 🙂 I am almost certain that you will be able to identify problematic areas that will need to be addressed and you won't want to have to fight all of those battles later like I did.
Good luck erg and also make sure they appreciate your humor which shouldn't be too much of a problem with the substance abuse population. 😉
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VA salaries are negotiable
 
Are you referring to providing therapy as part of a suboxone practice? In that case, direct pay will likely vary enormously by setting (like anything else). This is the psychology forum, so I doubt many can directly capitalize on the suboxone market in quite the same way physicians do.

As for the degree to which it will impact the overall profitability of this particular clinic, that will depend immensely on their setup, focus, etc. and may or may not translate into salary paid to a clinical director. The folks I know making a killing on suboxone are generally not doing so in residential programs (unclear if detox in this context is inpatient or outpatient detox).

All that said - the numbers above align with what I was thinking. ~120k seems a reasonable minimum to expect (meaning I'd start above that if negotiating), though it will again be somewhat dependent on the makeup of the clinic. The substance abuse field certainly has a tremendous range in profitability (not that other MH areas don't too).
 
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The city's COL is more Omaha-like than Chicago.

Its a new facility and they are recruiting hard. I was cold called about it, basically.

They said Neurofeedback was going to be a integral part of the program. I ended the conversation at that point. Didn't get to salary discussions, but I was curious, as I was going to start at 125k. Seems like I was pretty close.
 
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erg923 said:
The city's COL is more Omaha-like than Chicago.

Its a new facility and they are recruiting hard. I was cold called about it, basically.

They said Neurofeedback was going to be a integral part of the program. I ended the conversation at that point. Didn't get to salary discussions, but I was curious, as I was going to start at 125k. Seems like I was pretty close.
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$125K would have been a good starting point... and the expectation for performing neurofeedback was a good ending point!
 
Lurking Oracle said:
$125K would have been a good starting point... and the expectation for performing neurofeedback was a good ending point!
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There were actually no clinical duties with the position. So, even worse, I "supervise" it and it has the proverbial blessing from me, since the position is responsible for the entire programming of services. This obviously was not a good sign, and I quickly made my objection known. I did not perceive any real understanding of my objection, nor any real flexibility on their part, so I bowed out pretty quickly after that tidbit was made known.
 
Erg,

Knowing what you know about human cognition, why would you lowball yourself? Foot in the door doesn't work in salary negotiations. They do work for benefits and pto. Door in the face works better.
 
Well, because, I was thinking 125 was high before I posted this thread. I was wrong though-probably should have started at 150 or above.

Turns out job was bum anyway though, as you can see.
 
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shooter said:
VA salaries are negotiable
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They can be, but I was referring to the policies and programs and who determines them at a large system like the VA. Usually those decisions are pretty far removed from the clinical providers. A psychologist needs to have a much different mindset when working with a smaller organization. This case provides a good example of what I was trying to say. Erg is not going to have much responsibility for the overall conduct of the VA system itself, but in this job he would and the nature of the service provided is more central to the negotiations which is why he is saying no.
 
Of all clinical organizations, the VA is the place with the least amount of leverage and allowance for salary negotiation for psychologists.
 
erg923 said:
Well, because, I was thinking 125 was high before I posted this thread.
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Given it as 100% administrative, the "value" is calculated much differently. In that setting I'd want on the higher end bc of the expected hassle and (potential) liability of being in that position.
 
shooter said:
VA salaries are negotiable
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In the majority of cases, they are not. At least in any practical sense. If you are applying to a less desirable location where they position has been hard to fill/retain, you can probably negotiate something (e.g., relo incentive, higher step). Other than that, not a lot of wiggle room. If you are already established and have been working for a number of years, the only thing on the table is what step you start out at. Most VA's will use your years of practice and approximate what step you'd be at if you had just been in the VA that length of time. It's not a negotiation, more of an algorithm.
 
WisNeuro said:
In the majority of cases, they are not. At least in any practical sense. If you are applying to a less desirable location where they position has been hard to fill/retain, you can probably negotiate something (e.g., relo incentive, higher step). Other than that, not a lot of wiggle room. If you are already established and have been working for a number of years, the only thing on the table is what step you start out at. Most VA's will use your years of practice and approximate what step you'd be at if you had just been in the VA that length of time. It's not a negotiation, more of an algorithm.
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don't forget 'salary matching' within approved GS grade [by showing 3-month pay stubs]... you should keep asking within the limits of the announcement....until HR clearly states the 'offer is final' and then decide whether or not to settle for it.
 
erg923 said:
Of all clinical organizations, the VA is the place with the least amount of leverage and allowance for salary negotiation for psychologists.
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much harder but 'bureaucratically' possible
 
Ollie123 said:
Are you referring to providing therapy as part of a suboxone practice? In that case, direct pay will likely vary enormously by setting (like anything else). This is the psychology forum, so I doubt many can directly capitalize on the suboxone market in quite the same way physicians do.
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these clinics/physicians req ppl w/ in subs. abuse training to substantiate tx and $$
 
shooter said:
don't forget 'salary matching' within approved GS grade [by showing 3-month pay stubs]... you should keep asking within the limits of the announcement....until HR clearly states the 'offer is final' and then decide whether or not to settle for it.
Click to expand...

Within the grade is the step provision people have talked about. And, if it is a location that gets a lot of applications for positions, they will most likely not authorize steps above the commensurate "time served." Over the years there has been less and less give from HR due to budget restrictions throughout most VISN's. You can ask all you want, but in most situations, there is no wiggle room.
 
$115-$140, if it were me I'd ask for $135 and expect to land between $125 and $130.
 
shooter said:
much harder but 'bureaucratically' possible
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Not really. You have no leverage or strings to pull other than not the accepting offer. There's no alternative pay structure, billing structure, hours, revenue streams/off offsets, etc, unlike the private sector. Within grade is a best as it gets and that would be limited to experience, maybe a pub hx in a center that's not feeling the heat from DC lately.

Do you work within the VA?
 
erg923 said:
Not really. You have no leverage or strings to pull other than not the accepting offer. There's no alternative pay structure, billing structure, hours, revenue streams/off offsets, etc, unlike the private sector. Within grade is a best as it gets and that would be limited to experience, maybe a pub hx in a center that's not feeling the heat from DC lately.

Do you work within the VA?
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Yes, and used every aforementioned strategies pursuant VA 5007 /40 handbook
 
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WisNeuro said:
Within the grade is the step provision people have talked about. And, if it is a location that gets a lot of applications for positions, they will most likely not authorize steps above the commensurate "time served." Over the years there has been less and less give from HR due to budget restrictions throughout most VISN's. You can ask all you want, but in most situations, there is no wiggle room.
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in most situations ppl don't ask
 
People ask all the time. And get turned down all the time. The VA 5007/40 just delineates the same thing that was mentioned as some wiggle room concerning step. The standards boards are usually only considering things within a fairly narrow step window.
 
I'm sure it can vary from VA to VA ("if you know one VA, you know...one VA"), but my experience thus far has been similar to the above--limited negotiating ability, although I definitely asked prior to accepting my last offer. Steps are certainly possible, especially if it's been a harder-to-fill position. Other stuff, depends. If it's listed as a available in the posting, then it's at least on the table. If it's not listed in the posting, then HR's hands are tied. Direct hires may be a bit different, though; I don't have much experience with those.

And as a belated reply to the original question--I was going to say I'd probably expect around ~$130k, so might start off by asking for $150k. Although as others have said, could vary based on a variety of factors.
 
WisNeuro said:
People ask all the time. And get turned down all the time. The VA 5007/40 just delineates the same thing that was mentioned as some wiggle room concerning step. The standards boards are usually only considering things within a fairly narrow step window.
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so you just went from 'most of the time'...to 'all of the time'...which one is it doctor?
 
Either or, take your pick. Both signify the unlikely nature of such things. People should feel free to ask, worst thing that happens is that HR says no, which they will do in the vast majority of cases. I just wouldn't sell people on something that is very unlikely to happen at most VA's.
 
WisNeuro said:
Either or, take your pick. Both signify the unlikely nature of such things. People should feel free to ask, worst thing that happens is that HR says no, which they will do in the vast majority of cases. I just wouldn't sell people on something that is very unlikely to happen at most VA's.
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psychologists are so conditioned to work for free and/or very little compensation that when salary negotiation time comes up, they are easily shut down. sorry you got short-changed in the process. i refuse to believe I'm the outlier
 
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shooter said:
psychologists are so conditioned to work for free and/or very little compensation that when salary negotiation time comes up, they are easily shut down. sorry you got short-changed for not asking. i refuse to believe I'm the outlier
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I do agree that psychologists often either don't ask or sell themselves short, although in my limited experiences, I've also gotten a feel similar to WisNeuro's RE: the VA and salary negotiations. I certainly asked while considering my current job, and was told by HR that they essentially never grant step increases to psychologists because the positions are never difficult to fill. I'd imagine this varies from VA to VA, though, and perhaps even from position to position. I'd imagine there's also more wiggle room if you have prior experience vs. are coming straight from grad school or post-doc, or are coming into a more administratively-oriented position.

I've of course heard of folks who negotiated increases prior to hiring, but it does seem to have been the exception rather than the rule. No clue if this is do primarily to folks asking and being turned down rather than not asking at all, though.

But who knows--if more psychologists asked, were turned down, and then walked away from the offer, perhaps the hiring folks would be more open to negotiating increases.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
I do agree that psychologists often either don't ask or sell themselves short, although in my limited experiences, I've also gotten a feel similar to WisNeuro's RE: the VA and salary negotiations. I certainly asked while considering my current job, and was told by HR that they essentially never grant step increases to psychologists because the positions are never difficult to fill. I'd imagine this varies from VA to VA, though, and perhaps even from position to position. I'd imagine there's also more wiggle room if you have prior experience vs. are coming straight from grad school or post-doc, or are coming into a more administratively-oriented position.

I've of course heard of folks who negotiated increases prior to hiring, but it does seem to have been the exception rather than the rule. No clue if this is do primarily to folks asking and being turned down rather than not asking at all, though.

But who knows--if more psychologists asked, were turned down, and then walked away from the offer, perhaps the hiring folks would be more open to negotiating increases.
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Agreed, VA's in metro areas have a larger pool and give less options for negotiation...the "salary matching" strategy works well across GS grades/occupations.

As psychologists, once you are cleared from the initial background/physical/credential processes, you become a hot commodity to the agency (same happens when you join the military).They'll call and email you like never before to lock you in at the lowest Step; once locked in it's over. ...So, the best time to play the salary negotiation game is when you are cleared and get that first 'firm' offer.
 
shooter said:
psychologists are so conditioned to work for free and/or very little compensation that when salary negotiation time comes up, they are easily shut down. sorry you got short-changed in the process. i refuse to believe I'm the outlier
Click to expand...

As almost everyone has mentioned, depends on the VA. I've worked for some of the flagships, who get no less than a dozen, high quality applications every time a spot opens up. HR and the standards boards have no need to entertain negotiations when they can go back to a stellar pool of people. Sure if you want to go work in Arkansas, Alaska, or a CBOC that no one wants to be at, you've got some room, maybe. And, you are not a hot commodity to the agency unless it's a hard to fill position. Like I said, feel free to try and negotiate, but most people will be disappointed when they see the reality of the situation away from the fantasy.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
I've of course heard of folks who negotiated increases prior to hiring, but it does seem to have been the exception rather than the rule. No clue if this is do primarily to folks asking and being turned down rather than not asking at all, though.
Click to expand...

We've done this with a direct hire. We had someone in mind and did not want to post the position. This all happened behind the scenes.
 
shooter said:
Agreed, VA's in metro areas have a larger pool and give less options for negotiation...the "salary matching" strategy works well across GS grades/occupations.

As psychologists, once you are cleared from the initial background/physical/credential processes, you become a hot commodity to the agency (same happens when you join the military).They'll call and email you like never before to lock you in at the lowest Step; once locked in it's over. ...So, the best time to play the salary negotiation game is when you are cleared and get that first 'firm' offer.
Click to expand...
AcronymAllergy said:
I do agree that psychologists often either don't ask or sell themselves short, although in my limited experiences, I've also gotten a feel similar to WisNeuro's RE: the VA and salary negotiations. I certainly asked while considering my current job, and was told by HR that they essentially never grant step increases to psychologists because the positions are never difficult to fill. I'd imagine this varies from VA to VA, though, and perhaps even from position to position. I'd imagine there's also more wiggle room if you have prior experience vs. are coming straight from grad school or post-doc, or are coming into a more administratively-oriented position.

I've of course heard of folks who negotiated increases prior to hiring, but it does seem to have been the exception rather than the rule. No clue if this is do primarily to folks asking and being turned down rather than not asking at all, though.

But who knows--if more psychologists asked, were turned down, and then walked away from the offer, perhaps the hiring folks would be more open to negotiating increases.
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Yes, I've had the same fantasy about psychologists uniting and walking away from job offers until our salaries increase.

In my experience, AMC's are no different from VA's. The sentiment that was expressed to me when I was hired was, "We have hundreds of applicants. Take it or leave it, buster. Oh, sorry, DR buster."
 
Peacemaker36 said:
In my experience, AMC's are no different from VA's. The sentiment that was expressed to me when I was hired was, "We have hundreds of applicants. Take it or leave it, buster. Oh, sorry, DR buster."
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This is why I laugh whenever people whine about the "lack" of internship spots. I have yet to witness a shortage in providers when I have never seen a position get less than double digits in qualified applications.
 
Peacemaker36 said:
In my experience, AMC's are no different from VA's. The sentiment that was expressed to me when I was hired was, "We have hundreds of applicants. Take it or leave it, buster. Oh, sorry, DR buster."
Click to expand...

Even in my experience applying for more "niche" positions with smaller applicant pools, the salary range can vary a lot from one department to another for a similar type of position. What I've learned just validates common sense: sometimes there is wiggle room and sometimes little or none. You have to try to negotiate, of course, but there are many factors beyond the applicant's control that determine room for negotiation. Sometimes it comes down to how the position is funded.
 
WisNeuro said:
This is why I laugh whenever people whine about the "lack" of internship spots. I have yet to witness a shortage in providers when I have never seen a position get less than double digits in qualified applications.
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"Qualified applications" is harder than many think, depending on the speciality and job responsibilities. I have worked at two flagship R1 universities and while we get many applications for a posted spot, we generally only have a few people in mind who may or may not have even applied. I think part of the issue involves recruiting for specific clinical/research areas, and the other part involves the geography/location. We recruit nationally at my current place, but it'd be awesome if we could find a "local" candidate. In LA/NYC this is more of an option, but not for smaller and mid-sized cities. Of course, if the job is more generalist in nature, sure…I think there will be many more qualified applicants. It seems that healthcare is leaning away from generalists, so I don't think this is purely a 5%'er problem….or whatever R1's represent.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
"Qualified applications" is harder than many think, depending on the speciality and job responsibilities. I have worked at two flagship R1 universities and while we get many applications for a posted spot, we generally only have a few people in mind who may or may not have even applied. I think part of the issue involves recruiting for specific clinical/research areas, and the other part involves the geography/location. We recruit nationally at my current place, but it'd be awesome if we could find a "local" candidate. In LA/NYC this is more of an option, but not for smaller and mid-sized cities. Of course, if the job is more generalist in nature, sure…I think there will be many more qualified applicants.
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I can see fewer on the academic side, but when we post for clinical positions, we get waves of apps a lot of the time. for more generalist psych positions, a ton, for neuro, fewer, but still gives us a lot to choose from.
 
WisNeuro said:
As almost everyone has mentioned, depends on the VA. I've worked for some of the flagships, who get no less than a dozen, high quality applications every time a spot opens up. HR and the standards boards have no need to entertain negotiations when they can go back to a stellar pool of people. Sure if you want to go work in Arkansas, Alaska, or a CBOC that no one wants to be at, you've got some room, maybe. And, you are not a hot commodity to the agency unless it's a hard to fill position. Like I said, feel free to try and negotiate, but most people will be disappointed when they see the reality of the situation away from the fantasy.
Click to expand...

didn't have to go rural...wondering how much more i could've gotten in Arkansas or Alaska.....hmmmm...all myths busted
 
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