Salary

[JaggerPlate]

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The sky is the limit ... but this involves a lot of financial risk and capital outlay.

There always is! Risk and reward ...

Anyway, thanks for the info. Sleep sounds fascinating and the business prospects do appeal to a certain part of me!

 

[digitlnoize]

Hmm. After further research, I'm not so sure that we would qualify for this. From a FAQ on www.nasfaa.org (http://www.nasfaa.org/PDFs/2007/FAQPublic.pdf)

"Payments made under the extended repayment plan would be ineligible if they are less than the amount calculated under the standard repayment plan."

I think our salaries would be too high post-residency to qualify...am I right?

 

[Sharpie1]

whats a typical starting salary for adult or child psychiatrist in the nyc/nyc suburbs area?

 

[Omahadoc]

Hmm. After further research, I'm not so sure that we would qualify for this. From a FAQ on www.nasfaa.org (http://www.nasfaa.org/PDFs/2007/FAQPublic.pdf)

"Payments made under the extended repayment plan would be ineligible if they are less than the amount calculated under the standard repayment plan."

I think our salaries would be too high post-residency to qualify...am I right?

You are misunderstanding the quote you cite. An extended repayment plan is different from an income-based or income-contingent plan. Extended repayment plan payments do not count toward the 120 payments needed for forgiveness under the program, but payments made under an income-based or income-contingent plans do count.

If payments that were less than the standard repayment plan didn't count toward the 120 payment requirement, it would be impossible for anyone to benefit from this program because standard repayment is 10 years.

 

[jettavr6]

Most psychiatrists with 3-5+ years of experience can make over 300k putting in some hard work. Most whom I know make in the 250k range. I do know a select few who have many years of experience that make over 500k.

On a separate note, a lot of my colleagues are doing extremely well in side businesses, investments, etc. All told, some of these guys are doing better than the some orthopods.

Still, pursue what you love. If you do what you love, it's not a job and you'll end up doing well regardless of monetary compensation.

 

[cleareyedguy]

Agreed. But keep in mind that most folks who get as far as medical school do not come from working class families. A large majority come from upper-middle class or above. That can give you the viewpoint of $140K being "nothing."

Also, folks tend not to do the math. A $140K salary with a $250K loan works out to be a lot more money than a $100K salary and no loan. Would anyone cry in their cheerio's about how a $100K salary is "no money"? Maybe...

I'd be curious about data on the subject of family background of current medical students. Does anyone have it?

I'm also curious what people would consider "upper middle class." One perspective would be that UMC means that the parents have enough money so that their kids don't have to take out med school loans. And given how many people take out 6 figure loans, that is apparently not the case.

Another view is more academic/cultural--wherein two librarians are upper middle class from an academic standpoint even if their combined income is less than the blue collar worker next door (whose children are less likely to attend med school). BTW, my view of Upper Class (which no one ever admits to) is that you don't have to work, and few people from the UC ever have kids who go to med school. I've known a couple who did, and their parents and friends tended to be puzzled by their decision.

I live in NYC, however, where $100,000 in family income is obviously enough to support a family but definitely not enough to make anyone feel like they're part of the upper middle class.

If anyone is interested, take a look at Paul Fussell's book called "Class." It's dated but funny.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'd be curious about data on the subject of family background of current medical students. Does anyone have it?

AAMC has some data that I looked at. It showed that 60-65% of allopathic medical students came from the top 20% of U.S. household incomes. Hard to argue top 20% as not being upper middle and/or upper class.

I'm also curious what people would consider "upper middle class." One perspective would be that UMC means that the parents have enough money so that their kids don't have to take out med school loans.

To me that would be incrediblyincredibly rich, not any flavor of middle class. That would be trust fund level. Even folks I know from pretty rich families are not having Mom and Dad kick in $180K for medical school. At a certain point, even the wealthy probably figure their kids have to take responsibility for their own education at a certain point.

I live in NYC, however, where $100,000 in family income is obviously enough to support a family but definitely not enough to make anyone feel like they're part of the upper middle class.

Yeah, New York's a weird one. Average income is actually BELOW the national average ($22K). The real argument is probably whether or not there are many middle class families living in Manhattan and the answer is probably very few.

If anyone is interested, take a look at Paul Fussell's book called "Class." It's dated but funny.

Haven't picked it up since the early 90's, but loved it. A lot of fun.

 

[Omahadoc]

A girl in my class from the west coast whose father is a pharmacist and mother is a teacher is having her med school tuition paid by her parents. I certainly don't know her family's entire financial situation, but I would assume they are not fantastically wealthy based solely on their occupations. This particular student is a fourth year and is planning to do a residency in Radiology, so she likely wouldn't have any trouble repaying the loans.

To me, it's selfish and irresponsible on the part of a child to allow parents to pay for med school when it's at all a financial burden on the parents. Even in a worst-case scenario (i.e. $300k in debt, $130k salary) a physician takes home enough money to live a comfortable, though not extravagant, lifesyle while repaying student loans. To potentially take years and/or comfort away from your parents' retirement so you can live the high life sooner is horrible IMO.

On the other hand, if your parents are already worth millions, it really doesn't have much of an impact on their future one way or another.

 

[digitlnoize]

A girl in my class from the west coast whose father is a pharmacist and mother is a teacher is having her med school tuition paid by her parents. I certainly don't know her family's entire financial situation, but I would assume they are not fantastically wealthy based solely on their occupations. This particular student is a fourth year and is planning to do a residency in Radiology, so she likely wouldn't have any trouble repaying the loans.

To me, it's selfish and irresponsible on the part of a child to allow parents to pay for med school when it's at all a financial burden on the parents. Even in a worst-case scenario (i.e. $300k in debt, $130k salary) a physician takes home enough money to live a comfortable, though not extravagant, lifesyle while repaying student loans. To potentially take years and/or comfort away from your parents' retirement so you can live the high life sooner is horrible IMO.

On the other hand, if your parents are already worth millions, it really doesn't have much of an impact on their future one way or another.

I agree for the most part, but that being said, it's hard to tell when you don't know the whole story.

For example, my parents (who are NOT rich) helped me out when I decided to go back to school (I'm now 31 and an MS-2) by paying off some of my credit card debt (~$4000). I paid for my own Community College (loans), Undergrad (more loans), and Med School (even more loans).

Now, my parents and I have an agreement. It's simple: I will pay them back one day, when I can afford it.

Perhaps your classmate has a similar agreement in place. Her parents have simply acted as a bank (possibly interest free) because they could sort of afford it because they know that she will pay them back later. Everyone wins in this scenario, assuming it's not too much of a burden on the parents. The parents will get their money back and gratitude from either kid. The kid will get an interest free loan for her education. Win-Win.

Of course, if it's a burden on the parents, that's a different story, but a Pharmacist+Teacher salary wouldn't be half bad and could possibly afford to cough up a years' tuition, especially if it's at a well-funded state school.

Just try not to judge people so harshly without knowing the full story. Maybe you DO know more than you said...maybe she's an evil, ungrateful brat...

 

[billypilgrim37]

Similarly, I have a friend (a groomsman in my wedding) whose father is a solo private practice pediatrician. They own a vacation home in the same neighborhood where Shaq has one of his many homes in Florida, they are probably gone about 1-2 months of the year on elaborate vacations to whatever expensive locale you could imagine, and they essentially paid him off to not marry his girlfriend until after medical school by paying his tuition, while simultaneously paying his brother's tuition at another medical school. They also bought him a condo to live in during medical school.

We finally figured out through various innuendos over the past 30 years that his family is actually fairly high up in an organized crime organization in their home country.

So if suddenly I drop off the message board, you know that the wrong person came across this post. 😉

 

[Thaitanium]

Similarly, I have a friend (a groomsman in my wedding) whose father is a solo private practice pediatrician. They own a vacation home in the same neighborhood where Shaq has one of his many homes in Florida, they are probably gone about 1-2 months of the year on elaborate vacations to whatever expensive locale you could imagine, and they essentially paid him off to not marry his girlfriend until after medical school by paying his tuition, while simultaneously paying his brother's tuition at another medical school. They also bought him a condo to live in during medical school.

We finally figured out through various innuendos over the past 30 years that his family is actually fairly high up in an organized crime organization in their home country.

So if suddenly I drop off the message board, you know that the wrong person came across this post. 😉

That might explain it if your family was part of the Colombian cartel.

 

[notdeadyet]

For example, my parents (who are NOT rich) helped me out when I decided to go back to school (I'm now 31 and an MS-2) by paying off some of my credit card debt (~$4000). I paid for my own Community College (loans), Undergrad (more loans), and Med School (even more loans).

This makes a lot of sense, because most credit cards are exorbitantly high interest rates. They accrue interest at a higher rate than most investments earn, so it's a good call. Paying off your $4K now could save you a heck of a lot of money you'd be happy to pay them for later without their feeling a pinch.

Her parents have simply acted as a bank (possibly interest free) because they could sort of afford it because they know that she will pay them back later. Everyone wins in this scenario, assuming it's not too much of a burden on the parents. The parents will get their money back and gratitude from either kid. The kid will get an interest free loan for her education. Win-Win.

It's the "assuming it's not too much of a burder" part that is the clincher. For this to make financial sense, the parents act as an interest free bank to the tune of six figures, which requires a lot of disposable income on the parent's part. Very few people have this lying around as fun money. If the parents don't have that kind of disposable income, it requires taking money out of interest earning funds or taking out loans, either of which would be a bigger hit than the med student taking out their own student loans, even unsubsidized.

Of course, if it's a burden on the parents, that's a different story, but a Pharmacist+Teacher salary wouldn't be half bad and could possibly afford to cough up a years' tuition, especially if it's at a well-funded state school.

At a certain point, I can't help but think it's probably best for children to tell their parents, "Thanks, but I've got it..." Parents reach a point where they are looking after their own parents and setting aside for their own retirement. And for medical school, it's made pretty easy for us to take ownership of our education, since we have a pretty nicely guaranteed revenue stream when we get out. Taking big loans from loved ones is just bad juju. I'm not comfortable borrowing more than $40 from a friend; the thought of borrowing $100K from a parent would make me queasy.

 

[michaelrack]

It's the "assuming it's not too much of a burder" part that is the clincher. For this to make financial sense, the parents act as an interest free bank to the tune of six figures, which requires a lot of disposable income on the parent's part. Very few people have this lying around as fun money. If the parents don't have that kind of disposable income, it requires taking money out of interest earning funds or taking out loans, either of which would be a bigger hit than the med student taking out their own student loans, even unsubsidized.

.

After I finished med school, my parents paid off my loans (right when most of the interest charges would have started) and I paid them back slowly during residency (and for a few years after) at a low interest rate.

My parents got the money from retirement savings (non tax deferred). It worked out well for us. While I was paying back most of the $, the stock market was tanking- so they made more off of me than they would have from keeping the money in investments, and I paid less interest than on a standard loan.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

At a certain point, I can't help but think it's probably best for children to tell their parents, "Thanks, but I've got it..." Parents reach a point where they are looking after their own parents and setting aside for their own retirement. And for medical school, it's made pretty easy for us to take ownership of our education, since we have a pretty nicely guaranteed revenue stream when we get out. Taking big loans from loved ones is just bad juju. I'm not comfortable borrowing more than $40 from a friend; the thought of borrowing $100K from a parent would make me queasy.

I agree. I really can't imagine ever asking my parents to loan this much money to me. What if something happens, and you can't repay the loans? The income is fairly guaranteed, but it's not 100%. You can get your loans discharged in the case of disability or death, but if your parents bankrolled you, they'd be stuck without getting a payback from you.

I guess as the youngest of 4 children and a kid who always had the oldest parents of all my friends, I've always known my parents need to worry about their own financial health before supporting me anyway.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

My parents paid for undergrad, at their insistence. Had some very good scholarship offers at very good schools. They were willing to pay for 'better' (arguable of course).

The topic of paying for med school never even came up, on either end. Not least because they didn't totally agree with my decision. That said, it could be done by any family with at least one doctoral-level professional in it, provided they weren't paying for more than 2 kids at a time.

I personally think it's stupid that the govt looks at undergrad as the parents' expense (FAFSA etc). Drove me bonkers in undergrad since I didn't qualify for work study and therefore didn't qualify for ANY of the research jobs, or even any of the decent jobs at all. And we won't even get into the raiding of academic scholarships for other crap (I got the biggest academic scholarship available at my school, which covered about 5-10% of the yearly cost. As opposed to numerous 'minority' scholarships that required a lot less, were usually won by richer kids than me who happened to be the right kind of brown, and covered a lot more)

 

[235750]

I got the biggest academic scholarship available at my school, which covered about 5-10% of the yearly cost. As opposed to numerous 'minority' scholarships that required a lot less, were usually won by richer kids than me who happened to be the right kind of brown, and covered a lot more)

😕

Yeah, dark skinned people get all the advantages in this country. They're all wealthy too and crowd our colleges.

Please. If you'd like to complain, at least keep it realistic: what about full-ride sports scholarships? Lots of brown people take those. I bet they took that one from you too huh?

Your post doesn't belong in a thread re: salary in psychiatry and is offensive. It is unfortunate that you chose a school that did not value academics as much as others do, but I see no reason to blame it on brown people.

Academic scholarships are competitive because there are a lot of smart people out there, and many are more intelligent than you or I. That's probably why we had to pay for school. Such is life.

Do you honestly believe you'd have less debt and be in a better place today if only your skin color was darker?

Also, proofread your buddy's quote.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Do you honestly believe you'd have less debt and be in a better place today if only your skin color was darker?

Don't hate on the Master. He was kicked out of Andy Barnard's a capella group, and had to take solace with primates.

But the gorillas were too privileged, so he had to shack up with the monkeys instead.



/fair and balanced?

 

[235750]

You're not a very good listener.

Pssst: he IS brown.

🙂 Yes, I do have trouble listening as I wear a hearing aid. However, I don't think sifting though masterofmonkeys' 1,065 posts and finding out his/her racial heritage has anything to do with listening.

Did you read my post?

Do you honestly believe you'd have less debt and be in a better place today if only your skin color was darker?

Did you know it's still possible to be prejudiced against other races even if you yourself are not white?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Let's all play nice now. Thread's veering dangerously off topic and careening toward the closure zone...

 

[billypilgrim37]

Let's all play nice now. Thread's veering dangerously off topic and careening toward the closure zone...

I'm just sad nobody liked my Andy Barnard reference. 🙁

 

[geripsyched]

Back to salary issues... I am interested in pursuing an academic research career and talked with a higher up in my school's psych department. In this department at a respected US medical school, newly minted psychiatrists are offered a clinical position at $146,000/year. Now I hope to eventually receive a "K" award (the kindergarten award for budding researchers), which can only cover $90,000(?) a year with a minimum of 75% effort, so the overall salary would likely be much less than $146,000/year (even with 25% clinical effort). It's not surprising-although still disappointing-that so many researchers double dip (e.g., consult with pharma). The relative pay difference between private practice and researching kinda sucks.

Any ideas whether this $146,000/yr is negotiable, or do some Depts really have a universal non-negotiable salary for newbie psychiatrists?

 

[michaelrack]

Any ideas whether this $146,000/yr is negotiable, or do some Depts really have a universal non-negotiable salary for newbie psychiatrists?

$146,000 is pretty good for an assistant professor.

You might be able to get a supplement from the hospital the dept of psychiatry is associated with if you are medical director of a ward.

Salary for an academic doc usually consists of $ from several sources- the department, the medical school, the hospital... sometimes a % of collections from clinical work. There is some room for negotiation.

 

[notdeadyet]

Let's all play nice now. Thread's veering dangerously off topic and careening toward the closure zone...

Yeah, I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure that Pre-Allo has some kind of copyright on affirmative action debates.

 

[geripsyched]

$146,000 is pretty good for an assistant professor.

You might be able to get a supplement from the hospital the dept of psychiatry is associated with if you are medical director of a ward.

Salary for an academic doc usually consists of $ from several sources- the department, the medical school, the hospital... sometimes a % of collections from clinical work. There is some room for negotiation.

Thanks for the info! Although this is years away, knowing that this school isn't lowballing junior faculty makes the school more appealing for residency (the junior faculty draws heavily from its residents/fellows). If workable, minimizing the number of times the family moves would be great! Moving once for medical school, then for residency, then for fellowship, and then for an academic appointment would be awful!!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I'm just sad nobody liked my Andy Barnard reference. 🙁

I got what you were talking about, but I guess I missed how it applies to M-o-M's particular shade of brownness...🙄

 

[billypilgrim37]

I got what you were talking about, but I guess I missed how it applies to M-o-M's particular shade of brownness...🙄

It was more about his Big Redness than his brownness, which I found to be the much more relevant discussion.

At this point in our careers, it's pretty commonplace when someone with privilege (which describes pretty much all of us, though in wildly different dimensions) doesn't understand theirs. Monkey's case is interesting, since he a) lives an honorable life of recovery from a significant physical illness, b) has not even begun to deal with the narcissistic injury of his undergrad experiences, and c) given the nature of the board, we have no idea of his personal insight into his own defense mechanisms, which seem to consist of 1) shrugs, 2) intense anger over perceived slights, and 3) being well defended within the niches he has created for himself.

He's a very smart, thoughtful guy, who is either unaware or indifferent to the fact that he pisses a lot of people off. In short, he sounds like an attending already!

/puts on Marxist, feminist tin foil hat.

 

[Regnvejr]

..In short, he sounds like an attending already!

/puts on Marxist, feminist tin foil hat.

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

 

[nancysinatra]

It was more about his Big Redness than his brownness, which I found to be the much more relevant discussion.

At this point in our careers, it's pretty commonplace when someone with privilege (which describes pretty much all of us, though in wildly different dimensions) doesn't understand theirs. Monkey's case is interesting, since he a) lives an honorable life of recovery from a significant physical illness, b) has not even begun to deal with the narcissistic injury of his undergrad experiences, and c) given the nature of the board, we have no idea of his personal insight into his own defense mechanisms, which seem to consist of 1) shrugs, 2) intense anger over perceived slights, and 3) being well defended within the niches he has created for himself.

He's a very smart, thoughtful guy, who is either unaware or indifferent to the fact that he pisses a lot of people off. In short, he sounds like an attending already!

/puts on Marxist, feminist tin foil hat.

Billypilgrim, you sound like a third year already! Defenses and niches and whatnot... 🙄

 

[GreenShirt]

Whenever I hear conversations like this among my classmates I really can't help but be dumbstruck. I have a single mom who works as a librarian making around $50,000/year. With that salary she supported 4 children, in California, and I never felt all that poor and never went hungry. Even if you only make $140,000/year, and you have $250,000 in loans (or more, in my case), you are still going to have plenty of money to afford kids and have a basic life. 🙄

Yes, $140,000 is enough money to live comfortably. However you will actually be living off less than half of that when you factor in taxes, medical malpractice, and loan repayment:

140,000-39,200=$100,800 after federal income tax (28%)
-5,000 =$95,000(after medical malpractice insurance)
=$7,983/month
-2,887 =$5,096/month after loans ($250,000 debt at 6.8%)

Gross Salary =$61,152

I'll leave it up to the individual to decide if $61,150 is good enough to pay for home, car, and children.

 

[digitlnoize]

Yes, $140,000 is enough money to live comfortably. However you will actually be living off less than half of that when you factor in taxes, medical malpractice, and loan repayment:

140,000-39,200=$100,800 after federal income tax (28%)
-5,000 =$95,000(after medical malpractice insurance)
=$7,983/month
-2,887 =$5,096/month after loans ($250,000 debt at 6.8%)

Gross Salary =$61,152

I'll leave it up to the individual to decide if $61,150 is good enough to pay for home, car, and children.

That works out to about 5k/month. That's not spectacular. My family is currently living on my wife's salary of ~50k/yr while I'm in med school, and while we get by, we aren't exactly living it up.

We have to budget carefully. Kids can be quite costly. Between the dance lessons, the piano lessons, the afterschool care, meals, field trips, etc...it eats up a good chunk of change. Plus they don't understand things like closing the fridge or keeping windows closed to keep the A/C in...lol.

That 5k/mo has to go much farther than just house, car, kids. It's more like:

House, Homeowner's insurance, property taxes, Home repairs, homeowner's associaton fees, 2 cars, Car insurance, car repairs, kid(s), cell phones, cable TV, internet, family recreation (movies, vacations, whatever), occasional furniture (we're in dire need of new couches soon), disability insurance, life insurance for everyone, college savings for the kid(s), family birthday presents, christmas presents, utilites (gas, electric, water, trash), gas for the car, groceries for 3-4+ people, eating out occasionally, clothes for 3-4 people, haircuts for 3-4 people, kids' recreation (sports, art, whatever)...and on and on...

It doesn't go nearly as far as you think. Obviously you have to budget this stuff, but 60k/yr is not exactly great.

It's also frustrating that I could have been making 80k/yr at my old management job without going through all the hell of med school...of course, I wouldn't like my job as much, but...

Do we live comfortably? I guess...ish...right now. When we have to buy a new mattress or couch though, then we'll start having problems. So far we've been fortunate enough to get other peoples' hand me downs, but at some point you have to grow up and get your own furniture (for example).

 

[michaelrack]

Yes, $140,000 is enough money to live comfortably. However you will actually be living off less than half of that when you factor in taxes, medical malpractice, and loan repayment:

140,000-39,200=$100,800 after federal income tax (28%)
-5,000 =$95,000(after medical malpractice insurance)
=$7,983/month
-2,887 =$5,096/month after loans ($250,000 debt at 6.8%)

Gross Salary =$61,152

I'll leave it up to the individual to decide if $61,150 is good enough to pay for home, car, and children.

Malpractice is usually paid by the department for academic attendings, and shouldn't be deducted from the $140,000 figure.

For salaried psychiatrists in a private practice or community mental health setting, it's also usually covered. The salary is lower to compensate for this, but if a psychiatrist is getting a $140,000 salary, usually he is not paying malpractice out of pocket.

 

[trophyhusband]

Yes, $140,000 is enough money to live comfortably. However you will actually be living off less than half of that when you factor in taxes, medical malpractice, and loan repayment:

140,000-39,200=$100,800 after federal income tax (28%)
-5,000 =$95,000(after medical malpractice insurance)
=$7,983/month
-2,887 =$5,096/month after loans ($250,000 debt at 6.8%)

Gross Salary =$61,152

I'll leave it up to the individual to decide if $61,150 is good enough to pay for home, car, and children.

Ummmmm... actually that's net salary since you already accounted for taxes. You didn't take out state and local taxes but it's close enough. So that 61k net is about 85k gross and that's after loan payments. I dunno about you but we would be more than able to survive off of that.

 

[GreenShirt]

Ummmmm... actually that's net salary since you already accounted for taxes. You didn't take out state and local taxes but it's close enough. So that 61k net is about 85k gross and that's after loan payments. I dunno about you but we would be more than able to survive off of that.

Ok, ~$60K net salary. How far this stretches will depend on whether you live in New York or Rural America, have 4 children or not. Obviously this will allow you more than to survive as a single individual in rural Indiana and maybe just survive in New York with a family of 6...I just wanted to point out that you will not actually get to spend $140,000 on your life.

Keep in mind, an NP or PA can practice psychiatry and earn ~$60K net salary doing a similar job with 1/2 the time spent in training.

 

[notdeadyet]

Gross Salary =$61,152

Ack, no that's NET, which is take-home after taxes. The gross for something like that is well over $80,000/year, or well over double what an average family earns.

I'll leave it up to the individual to decide if $61,150 is good enough to pay for home, car, and children.

If it's not enough, folks might need to either budget differently or adjust their standard of living. It ain't enough for Malibu and driving a Porsche, but definitely for living in Manhattan Beach driving a Jetta.

And that salary can be bumped up considerably by either paying off the loans on a longer than 10 year plan or not wracking up $250K/debt. My condolences to those that have that sort of nut hanging over their head. Ugly.

 

[235750]

Malpractice is usually paid by the department for academic attendings, and shouldn't be deducted from the $140,000 figure.

The country is so short on psychiatrists that most hospitals will offer malpractice as a benefit too. It helps that it's not very expensive for a shrink. Even locum tenens positions advertised online offer occurrence-based malpractice.

And yeah, I'd say $61k/yr after federal taxes isn't bad! digital noise, does your mrs. make 50k after federal taxes? I think we might be comparing two totally different numbers

Also billypilgrim, I did like your Office reference, but it's hard to watch and not think of Ricky Gervais. I keep expecting him to walk in the scene at any moment and it's distracting, so I never got into it

Now you see my privileged background! 🙂

 

[digitlnoize]

digital noise, does your mrs. make 50k after federal taxes? I think we might be comparing two totally different numbers

I was estimating. Our current take home is really more like 43k (she's a dental hygienist...they do ok).

Obviously, we're not hurting...and that extra 17k would be nice, but my point is that 60k/yr does not exactly make you well off. Of course you can get by. It just depends on where you put your standard of living.

For example, we could continue to use other peoples' used furniture. We could drive cars made in 1985 instead of 2002. Costs can always be cut...it just depends on what you're willing to sacrifice to get there.

 

[Regnvejr]

Ack, no that's NET, which is take-home after taxes. The gross for something like that is well over $80,000/year, or well over double what an average family earns.

If it's not enough, folks might need to either budget differently or adjust their standard of living. It ain't enough for Malibu and driving a Porsche, but definitely for living in Manhattan Beach driving a Jetta.

And that salary can be bumped up considerably by either paying off the loans on a longer than 10 year plan or not wracking up $250K/debt. My condolences to those that have that sort of nut hanging over their head. Ugly.

And they can go to underserved areas, where the base pay bumps up to close to 200K instead with a nice signing bonus.

 

[notdeadyet]

And they can go to underserved areas, where the base pay bumps up to close to 200K instead with a nice signing bonus.

And often loan repayment plans as well. There are ways...

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Ah, gotcha. You're right. Trying to pay off a big fat loan quickly, there's definitely going to be a delayed gratification.

It's no fun righting out checks to your alma mater for a lot of years, but it would be hard to come up with too many better return-on-investments than medical school.

Untrue. it's a pretty horrible investment. Numbers have been run ad nauseum. If you're talented and intelligent and hardworking enough to do medicine (i'd argue that you don't have to be too intelligent though), and were willing to put the same number of hours in, medicine is pretty stupid.

I didn't do this for the money. They wanted to pay me. PAY ME. To play with monkeys. In Brazil. At not a ton less than I would have made as a doctor. And yet I'm here. Don't get me wrong. I whine about it a lot, becuase I think the 150k in debt is stupid and extortionate and honestly I did not receive that much value from my medical school. And so is the fact that I'm paid 10 dollars an hour to be a freaking doctor. I got paid more to shovel cow crap. And get paid a TON more to train people.

But, I 100% agree with you that maybe the issue is that people have absurd expectations. I do come from a well-off family, but wasn't spoiled. Consequently, even on my intern salary, I'm able to indulge myself on a regular basis (home theater, mustang, transformers, LOTS of food), while still paying down on the principal.

 

[notdeadyet]

Untrue. it's a pretty horrible investment. Numbers have been run ad nauseum. If you're talented and intelligent and hardworking enough to do medicine (i'd argue that you don't have to be too intelligent though), and were willing to put the same number of hours in, medicine is pretty stupid.

Yeah, I've heard this argument a lot but don't buy it. It operates on the assumption that most medical students would make fantastic lawyers or investment bankers.

Some would, but for a lot (maybe most?) medical students, thank god for medicine because their options for sure-fire high paying careers would be somewhat limited.

I just don't drink too deep from the "you're the best of the best/good at all things" Kool-Aid. Some docs were a-type with inflated egos going into med school, but some just bought the hype during the training process. You can actually see a lot of twentysomethings start med school saying, "Man, I'm so happy just to have gotten here" and leave with lots of shrugs of "Man, I could be making $500K as an i-banker by now..."

Your average med student would make your average lawyer, and your average lawyer does not have as good an ROI on their education as your average doctor. Comparing the guy at the top law firm to the family practice dude isn't apples to apples.

Your average med student would make your average business school grad. Your average business degree is actually a loss of ROI (this has been shown on several business studies). Your NYC investment banker is the equivalent of your neurosurgeon.

There are definitely some special snowflakes in a med school class that could have been top lawyers or business sharks, but they are a small minority. Most students who did just fine in med school would not be at the top of their class in business or law school.

I know plenty of unemployed lawyers and MBAs. Medicine is one of the most certain ROI's on educational investment that's out there. Not sure where your ad nauseum figures are coming from, but they don't match any data I've seen. Taking out $150K in loans for a pretty much guaranteed $150K/year job works out to be a better ROI than taking out $60K in loans for a probable $80K job. Unless you're taking your loans from Vinnie at the pool hall, med school's the safer bet.

Your high paying job with monkeys in Brazil sounds very cool, but most med students would not have something like that awaiting them. They'd be looking at becoming high school science teachers or lab researchers. Some would work for non-profs. Some of the lucky ones (questionable?) would actually go on to Ph.D.'s in their science of choice. Could you turn back the clock and have them focus four years of hard work on going the business or law route? Possibly, but most of the top law/business types I know have a more aggressive personality than most med students. If they did go the business or law route, I think they'd be one of the very intelligent ones that still winds up with the average job. Med students tend to be risk averse by nature. Folks who panic over $150K in loans when walking into a $150K job are exactly the kind of folks who do not do well in business.

Agree with you on the not doing this for the money though. Good advice for any career. Couldn't agree more. Too many bitter folks out there earning big dollars.

 

[digitlnoize]

Yeah, I've heard this argument a lot but don't buy it. It operates on the assumption that most medical students would make fantastic lawyers or investment bankers...

...Agree with you on the not doing this for the money though. Good advice for any career. Couldn't agree more. Too many bitter folks out there earning big dollars.

I agree with everything said here. As someone who was part of the "real world" before med school, I can say that med school is definitely a worthwhile investment.

While maximum salaries may be higher in other fields, average salaries are not. Medicine offers the best combination of salary and job security to be found anywhere.

Sure, an investment banker can make a bundle. They can also lose it all very quickly, and have very little job security. Same in the business world. I went my whole life watching my Dad worry about his job everytime the economy took a downturn. Fortunately, he survived all the rounds of lay-offs, but plenty of other people didn't. The business world is NOT a safe place, for anyone...superstar or not.

Medicine pretty much guarantees you a comfortable salary. No other field can say the same. Sure, you could be a Rock Star and make $5 million a year. You could be a top lawyer. You could be a star day trader...etc, etc...But you won't be. Any of those routes will MOST LIKELY lead you to the same place. Mediocrity.

 

[Sneezing]

I disagree that your average med student would be on par with your average law student or business student. Med students put more devotion and study into their goal then they have.

I feel one of the least spoken about benefits of medicine is the ability to open your own practice. You are able to be your own boss and have independence. This is worth a tremendous amount in my book.

 

[babel]

I have to say that I agree with NDY and digitlnoize's line of thinking as well. In fact, the combined good income + job security is a big part of what pulled me to medicine over a PhD. I couldn't stand the thought of having to beg for money on a regular basis (i.e. grant applications). I wanted to go into a field where I was fairly guaranteed that if I worked hard enough, I would obtain a set of skills / a degree that not many other's have, and would thus be assured of having a fairly stable income throughout my career. It's a great investment along the lines of a CD - it's "great" not because of the absolute value of the return, but because you know what sort of return to expect. As someone mentioned above, very appealing to us risk averse types.

I also agree with Sneezing's point about the tremendous value in being able to open your own practice, if you so choose. My mom is an FP doc who runs her own practice - for a long time I could never understand how she could put up with the headaches of billing, employees quitting, buying your own health insurance and malpractice etc. etc. But the more b.s. I put up with, even as an MS3, the more I see the value in being able to be your own boss. Still not sure if I personally could stomach the inherent risk & responsibility, but it is certainly nice to have the option.