Scholl clinicals

[JEWmongous]

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Can any upperclassman scholl students or graduates comment on the clinic situation at scholl? How much of your clinical experience takes place in downtown chicago? Do you need to do rotations in the north chicago/southern wisconsin area? Also, how many months do you have to put in at the foot and ankle center on campus? I understand the patient load there is pretty light. It actually was closed the day I interviewed (I think its open 3 days a week but I could be wrong).

 

[Stafocker]

Can any upperclassman scholl students or graduates comment on the clinic situation at scholl? How much of your clinical experience takes place in downtown chicago? Do you need to do rotations in the north chicago/southern wisconsin area? Also, how many months do you have to put in at the foot and ankle center on campus? I understand the patient load there is pretty light. It actually was closed the day I interviewed (I think its open 3 days a week but I could be wrong).

I'd like to hear about this, too. (though JEWmongous already knows what I feel about ANY school clinic and how they are worthless - externships are what's more important, but that's just me)

 

[bdaddyjolley]

I'd like to hear about this, too. (though JEWmongous already knows what I feel about ANY school clinic and how they are worthless - externships are what's more important, but that's just me)

It is true externships is where you see a lot the great stuff but I disagree that all the school clinics are worthless. As I talk to upper classmen at Temple, they express to me how the TUSPM clinic really gave them a good foundation for the externships and that they already knew a lot of the stuff that was taught in the externships not to say they didn't learn more from them. I am sure others at other schools would feel the same.

Talking with the Student body President of Scholl, she expressed frustration on how the scholl clinic does not see many patients anymore and how many would want the volume to go up to gain more exposure. That seems to be the main complaint but it must be said that she has done amazing things to almost everything else at scholl that makes it terrific. So maybe in your experience it was worthless but you can't use that to describe everybody elses.

 

[Feli]

...what I feel about ANY school clinic and how they are worthless - externships are what's more important...

I agree to some extent, but school clinics are still a great place to learn the basics. You can get very comfortable with working up and treating basic complaints in school clinic, and you can take a back seat and learn by watching and listening as attendings take some of the more complex stuff. Clinic especially helps me for the multi-step stuff like PNA, modified Jones, biopsy, or vascular testing. I could read about that stuff over and over, but until you are using and applying the skills, it's hard for it to sink in.

Especially if you are going to clerkships which are hands-on, you will probably look pretty inferior to some other visiting students if they've seen hundreds of patients and you've only seen a few dozen. There's a big difference between reading about something and actually doing it yourself. If you go out to visit programs not even knowing and being comfortable with basic clinic skills like XRs and SOAP notes, then that hurts IMO. You will have to pick up those skills fast, and you might not get much consideration for those first few programs you visit...

 

[Stafocker]

It is true externships is where you see a lot the great stuff but I disagree that all the school clinics are worthless. As I talk to upper classmen at Temple, they express to me how the TUSPM clinic really gave them a good foundation for the externships and that they already knew a lot of the stuff that was taught in the externships not to say they didn't learn more from them. I am sure others at other schools would feel the same.

Talking with the Student body President of Scholl, she expressed frustration on how the scholl clinic does not see many patients anymore and how many would want the volume to go up to gain more exposure. That seems to be the main complaint but it must be said that she has done amazing things to almost everything else at scholl that makes it terrific. So maybe in your experience it was worthless but you can't use that to describe everybody elses.

Really? Cause i've talked to 4th years of Temple while externing with them. Temple is known for the brightest and most prepared students coming out, but having some stupid adminstrations and deans. Forcing 4th years to return to school clinic should be a sin when even 3rd years find it demeaning.

By the way, i was describing my experience. Glad you like the clinics... would you trade your externships for more clinic time?? just a thought.

Completely off topic, i just called to a 4th girl from Temple and she told me the attendings made $.37 per patient. Wondering if you heard of that, as well?

 

[bdaddyjolley]

Really? Cause i've talked to 4th years of Temple while externing with them. Temple is known for the brightest and most prepared students coming out, but having some stupid adminstrations and deans. Forcing 4th years to return to school clinic should be a sin when even 3rd years find it demeaning.

By the way, i was describing my experience. Glad you like the clinics... would you trade your externships for more clinic time?? just a thought.

Completely off topic, i just called to a 4th girl from Temple and she told me the attendings made $.37 per patient. Wondering if you heard of that, as well?

I never said to trade clinic time for externship time. I said the school clinics are there to prepare you for externships. It makes it harder if you go out on an externship having little or no hands on experience. And I did state at the end of my comment that maybe it was just your experience and you can't use it to describe everyone elses. But I have heard like you have of stupid administrators there.

 

[Stafocker]

I never said to trade clinic time for externship time. I said the school clinics are there to prepare you for externships. It makes it harder if you go out on an externship having little or no hands on experience. And I did state at the end of my comment that maybe it was just your experience and you can't use it to describe everyone elses. But I have heard like you have of stupid administrators there.

ok, misunderstanding.

I was describing my experience, i didn't describe anyone elses. "just my take". School clinic should end by 2nd year or the beginning of 3rd year. The basics are finished REAL quick and school clinic gets old... real old. There is no reason to have clinic 3rd year or 4th year when externships can help out.

I think the biggest drawback in Pod rotations is the LACK of shelf examinations. To see how much in school clinic you actually learn, compared nationally. It varies so much with each school, that some find it helpful and others find it a waste of time, however, without any national standard it's hard to assess by only basing it upon individual experiences. Someone may really like school clinic, but may not be the best student and may like less academics, but others may hate it because they already feel prepared and hate less academics. With a national standard, this would help solve this issue. BOARDS I and II are only a part of it. We need one for each of the major rotations and clinicals. just my take.

 

[JEWmongous]

So how much time is actually spent at the scholl foot and ankle clinic (months)??? Do you have to do it BOTH 3rd year and 4th year?

 

[Stafocker]

So how much time is actually spent at the scholl foot and ankle clinic (months)??? Do you have to do it BOTH 3rd year and 4th year?

Not at scholl, only 2nd and 3rd year...

4th year clinicals is for the other schools we've been talking about. But again, if there are any other SCPM students more current with what clinics they are removing/adding during the 2nd and 3rd years, please chime in.

SCPM has always been known to have more externships than any other school, and NO 4th year clinics (unless you're remediating). I guess we feel more prepared by 2nd/3rd year than most 😛

 

[PODonny]

Not at scholl, only 2nd and 3rd year...

4th year clinicals is for the other schools we've been talking about. But again, if there are any other SCPM students more current with what clinics they are removing/adding during the 2nd and 3rd years, please chime in.

SCPM has always been known to have more externships than any other school, and NO 4th year clinics (unless you're remediating). I guess we feel more prepared by 2nd/3rd year than most 😛

I would just like to note that DMU gives students the opportunity to do externships from June to May of the 4th year. With a 4-month core rotation aside, that gives students about 7-8 elective externship locations. If CRIP is in January, that means you could get 7 months of elective externships pre-CRIP. Pretty good situation to get out and see some things in my opinion.

 

[Feli]

I would just like to note that DMU gives students the opportunity to do externships from June to May of the 4th year. With a 4-month core rotation aside, that gives students about 7-8 elective externship locations. If CRIP is in January, that means you could get 7 months of elective externships pre-CRIP. Pretty good situation to get out and see some things in my opinion.

Yes^, you theoretically could get 7 clerkships, but, by the same token, as many or more students who have their 4 month core in summer or fall then only get 3 externships pre-CRIPS.

I kinda like the way my school does it with 2 home months, 5-6 clerkships, and 0-1 months off during 4th year May-Dec... all before CRIPS. The home months in school clinics really aren't that bad; they're a good break from a long set of demanding externships. The school clinics are pretty busy and do need to 4th year students to function optimally, but they're still just roughly 8-5 M-F and give you time to study and read for future clerkships, interviews, and boards... or you could even visit more programs on weekends.

Externships after CRIPS are still great for learning and prepping for residency, but they do very little in terms of getting to know the program and helping you get the residency. Visiting a selective program in Jan or afterwards really doesn't help you much since interview spots are already approved/denied by then.

It'd be neat to know how many pre-CRIPS externships each school gets. So far, we have:

DMU: 3-7 depending on when your core is assigned
Barry: 5 or 6 (depending if you want a month off or not)
NYCPM: 4? (I think I read that somewhere)
Scholl: ?
Temple: ?
Cali: ?
AZ: ?
OCPM: ?

 

[KHep]

Scholl is changing things up, so don't depend too much on what the upper classmen have experienced...it's very likely that what you will experience will be different. You would be better off talking to someone in administration, since the curriculum is changing.

 

[TheBee]

Scholl is changing things up, so don't depend too much on what the upper classmen have experienced...it's very likely that what you will experience will be different. You would be better off talking to someone in administration, since the curriculum is changing.

I heard that too. In my interview they said they're going to a 2+2 curriculum like DMU and Midwestern next year. There won't be a summer off after 1st year anymore 😱

 

[JEWmongous]

But DMU and AZPOD both have classes within the 3rd year. I actually do not think any pod school is a true 2+2 program where all didactics finish by the end of second year (like MD and DO schools). AZPOD does not even have summer vacations to begin with really, as the students have to catch up on the pod-specific classes.

 

[KHep]

But DMU and AZPOD both have classes within the 3rd year. I actually do not think any pod school is a true 2+2 program where all didactics finish by the end of second year (like MD and DO schools). AZPOD does not even have summer vacations to begin with really, as the students have to catch up on the pod-specific classes.

That may be true for DMU and AZPOD, but having seen the Scholl plan; it appears as if they have made a true 2+2. And they really stressed their intention of having future classes (maybe not 2012, but definitely shortly after) take the USMLE. It will be interesting to see if they can pull it off.

Right now at Scholl 3rd year didactics end about now and this will be the case for my class.

 

[jays2cool4u]

That may be true for DMU and AZPOD, but having seen the Scholl plan; it appears as if they have made a true 2+2. And they really stressed their intention of having future classes (maybe not 2012, but definitely shortly after) take the USMLE. It will be interesting to see if they can pull it off.

Right now at Scholl 3rd year didactics end about now and this will be the case for my class.

I spoke with Ms. Young today and our class, 2012, will be the first 2+2 program at Scholl. She said we will not receive a summer break next year from 1st to 2nd year but more like a 2 week interim.

 

[Stafocker]

That may be true for DMU and AZPOD, but having seen the Scholl plan; it appears as if they have made a true 2+2. And they really stressed their intention of having future classes (maybe not 2012, but definitely shortly after) take the USMLE. It will be interesting to see if they can pull it off.

Right now at Scholl 3rd year didactics end about now and this will be the case for my class.

the USMLE? wow.... are you sure? cause that might take an act of CPME and ACGME, because only certain ppl are allowed to take it, not anyone can just sign up for it.

 

[jays2cool4u]

the USMLE? wow.... are you sure? cause that might take an act of CPME and ACGME, because only certain ppl are allowed to take it, not anyone can just sign up for it.

How else will we gain parity without setting the curriculum up to preare for step 1, 2, and 3?

 

[cool_vkb]

How else will we gain parity without setting the curriculum up to preare for step 1, 2, and 3?

Yeah but that is supposed to happen after Vision 2015 is passed. And so far we are still in beginning stages. The class of 2012 taking USMLE is somewhat unbelievable. Can you call Admission's office and reconfim if its realy USMLE or it is NBPME. if its really USMLE then tat is very very wonderfull news.

 

[KHep]

Yeah but that is supposed to happen after Vision 2015 is passed. And so far we are still in beginning stages. The class of 2012 taking USMLE is somewhat unbelievable. Can you call Admission's office and reconfim if its realy USMLE or it is NBPME. if its really USMLE then tat is very very wonderfull news.

Cool, you are killing me. Did you not attend the class meeting at which Dr. Parsley spoke? If you were there, then you know that they are hoping that they will be able to do what is necessary to get the next few incoming classes ready to take the USMLE. And of course, that they will be able to get the governing body of those boards to allow Pods to sit for them. That 's one of the reasons that they need the similar curriculum to prove to the governing body, that Pods have a similar education. Were you seriously not there? And you can walk down the hallway to talk to them yourself. You could bypass admissions and go straight to Dr. Parsley. It's probably not going to happen in time for 2012, but hopefully the class after.

But, they know they want it to happen prior to 2015.

 

[dpmgrad]

Cool, you are killing me. Did you not attend the class meeting at which Dr. Parsley spoke? If you were there, then you know that they are hoping that they will be able to do what is necessary to get the next few incoming classes ready to take the USMLE. And of course, that they will be able to get the governing body of those boards to allow Pods to sit for them. That 's one of the reasons that they need the similar curriculum to prove to the governing body, that Pods have a similar education. Were you seriously not there? And you can walk down the hallway to talk to them yourself. You could bypass admissions and go straight to Dr. Parsley. It's probably not going to happen in time for 2012, but hopefully the class after.

But, they know they want it to happen prior to 2015.

As I stated on another thread, DPM students are NOT allow to sit for the USMLE examinations currently. As per the 2008 USMLE Bulletin, here are the qualifications needed to be eligible to take USMLE Step 1 and Step 2:

Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 2 CS

To be eligible, you must be in one of the following categories at the time of application and on the test day:

a medical student officially enrolled in, or a graduate of, a US or Canadian medical school program leading to the MD degree that is accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME),

a medical student officially enrolled in, or a graduate of, a US medical school leading to the DO degree that is accredited by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA), or

a medical student officially enrolled in, or a graduate of, a medical school outside the United States and Canada and eligible for examination by the ECFMG.

None of the DPM students will fit into any of the above categories. One of the major reasons why DO students are allowed to sit for the USMLE is that many of the allopathic residency programs that accept DO students require USMLE scores. Not every DO student take USMLE exams. In addition, if the DO student does take USMLE, it does not waive their requirement to take the COMLEX exam. Unless there is a specific reason why DPM students need USMLE scores, I do not foresee the USMLE governing body approving DPM students to take the exam. It is admirable that Scholl is taking the initiative to get the DPM curriculum more on par with the MD curriculum.

 

[Stafocker]

Cool, you are killing me. Did you not attend the class meeting at which Dr. Parsley spoke? If you were there, then you know that they are hoping that they will be able to do what is necessary to get the next few incoming classes ready to take the USMLE. And of course, that they will be able to get the governing body of those boards to allow Pods to sit for them. That 's one of the reasons that they need the similar curriculum to prove to the governing body, that Pods have a similar education. Were you seriously not there? And you can walk down the hallway to talk to them yourself. You could bypass admissions and go straight to Dr. Parsley. It's probably not going to happen in time for 2012, but hopefully the class after.

But, they know they want it to happen prior to 2015.

Thanks DPMgrad, i knew there were requirements outside of our control.

by the way, who's "Ms. Young" and "Dr. Parsley?" Are they new? what do they teach?

 

[cool_vkb]

Cool, you are killing me. Did you not attend the class meeting at which Dr. Parsley spoke? .

Yeah i missed that meeting. Sorry!🙂

 

[cool_vkb]

And you can walk down the hallway to talk to them yourself. You could bypass admissions and go straight to Dr. Parsley. It's probably not going to happen in time for 2012, but hopefully the class after.

Oh that post was intended for "Jays2cool4u" . he is in class of 2012. Since its something related to his class i was asking him to double check.

 

[cool_vkb]

by the way, who's "Ms. Young" and "Dr. Parsley?" Are they new? what do they teach?

Ms.Young is in admissions office and Dr.Parsley is faculty member.

 

[Stafocker]

Ms.Young is in admissions office and Dr.Parsley is faculty member.

Do you mean dr. horsley?

 

[KHep]

Do you mean dr. horsley?

No, not Dr. Horsley. Dr. Parsley is the new Dean of Curriculum. I believe she graduated from Scholl and may have taught there a while back. But, I'm not really sure. I just remember during orientation them talking about how great it is to have her back. I don't think she actually teaches; I believe she is strictly administrative.

 

[KHep]

As I stated on another thread, DPM students are NOT allow to sit for the USMLE examinations currently. As per the 2008 USMLE Bulletin, here are the qualifications needed to be eligible to take USMLE Step 1 and Step 2:

Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 2 CS

To be eligible, you must be in one of the following categories at the time of application and on the test day:

a medical student officially enrolled in, or a graduate of, a US or Canadian medical school program leading to the MD degree that is accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME),

a medical student officially enrolled in, or a graduate of, a US medical school leading to the DO degree that is accredited by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA), or

a medical student officially enrolled in, or a graduate of, a medical school outside the United States and Canada and eligible for examination by the ECFMG.

None of the DPM students will fit into any of the above categories. One of the major reasons why DO students are allowed to sit for the USMLE is that many of the allopathic residency programs that accept DO students require USMLE scores. Not every DO student take USMLE exams. In addition, if the DO student does take USMLE, it does not waive their requirement to take the COMLEX exam. Unless there is a specific reason why DPM students need USMLE scores, I do not foresee the USMLE governing body approving DPM students to take the exam. It is admirable that Scholl is taking the initiative to get the DPM curriculum more on par with the MD curriculum.

You are absolutely right. As things are now, DPMs can not sit for the USMLE. So, what I was trying to get at in my post was that the school has to gain permission from whomever it is that oversees the USMLEs to get them to permit DPM students to take their boards.......one of the reasons for changing the curriculum. It won't just be Scholl jumping on this bandwagon. If it's going to happen, I think all the schools will have to support it and lobby for it.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just relaying what our entire class was told over a month ago. Just because they want it to happen, doesn't mean that it will happen.
🙂

 

[JEWmongous]

Any specifics to the curriculum change? I mean is it just putting some classes in the first summer instead of the second year? Or does it involve overhauling the content of classes, making new ones, etc?

The other thing I am curious about is the 3rd year if it truly will be ALL clinical (no lecture classes whatsoever). Maybe it's too far in advance to say but I'd like to see how they will expand clinical rotations. I don't think they will use the F and A center on campus more due to the low volume. Hopefully more rotations in dt chicago.

Please let me know if you heard anything specific about this area. Thanks!

 

[cool_vkb]

Any specifics to the curriculum change? I mean is it just putting some classes in the first summer instead of the second year? Or does it involve overhauling the content of classes, making new ones, etc?

The other thing I am curious about is the 3rd year if it truly will be ALL clinical (no lecture classes whatsoever). Maybe it's too far in advance to say but I'd like to see how they will expand clinical rotations. I don't think they will use the F and A center on campus more due to the low volume. Hopefully more rotations in dt chicago.

Please let me know if you heard anything specific about this area. Thanks!

Take the scholl present curriculum and compare that with USMLE Step-1 syllabus. you will have your answer.🙂

 

[dpmgrad]

You are absolutely right. As things are now, DPMs can not sit for the USMLE. So, what I was trying to get at in my post was that the school has to gain permission from whomever it is that oversees the USMLEs to get them to permit DPM students to take their boards.......one of the reasons for changing the curriculum. It won't just be Scholl jumping on this bandwagon. If it's going to happen, I think all the schools will have to support it and lobby for it.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just relaying what our entire class was told over a month ago. Just because they want it to happen, doesn't mean that it will happen.
🙂

Not shooting the messenger at all. I commend Scholl for taking the initiative to make the DPM education more on par with MD schools. I was just stating what is the current qualifications needed to sit for the USMLE exams. If they can make it happen where DPM students can sit for USLME, then that would be a great thing for the DPM students.

 

[Stafocker]

Take the scholl present curriculum and compare that with USMLE Step-1 syllabus. you will have your answer.🙂

here's the SCPM strategic plan

http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/scpm/mission/SCPM.Strategic.Plan.pdf

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Not shooting the messenger at all. I commend Scholl for taking the initiative to make the DPM education more on par with MD schools. I was just stating what is the current qualifications needed to sit for the USMLE exams. If they can make it happen where DPM students can sit for USLME, then that would be a great thing for the DPM students.

There is a DPM student at DMU that claims to have sat for the USMLE Part I last year. When he filled out the application he listed his school at DMU, the application has never asked what program. I do not agree with the backdoor move but he stated he did well enough to pass. Just an interesting tidbit.

 

[cool_vkb]

There is a DPM student at DMU that claims to have sat for the USMLE Part I last year. When he filled out the application he listed his school at DMU, the application has never asked what program. I do not agree with the backdoor move but he stated he did well enough to pass. Just an interesting tidbit.

Woah! who wastes $600-700 like this? Waste in the sense that right at this moment the USMLE scores are not gonna benefit him in anyway in getting residency ,etc and he spent like $600 application fees on them. Thats like one month's rent 😱

 

[Stafocker]

Woah! who wastes $600-700 like this? Waste in the sense that right at this moment the USMLE scores are not gonna benefit him in anyway in getting residency ,etc and he spent like $600 application fees on them. Thats like one month's rent 😱

i think it's closer to $1000

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Woah! who wastes $600-700 like this? Waste in the sense that right at this moment the USMLE scores are not gonna benefit him in anyway in getting residency ,etc and he spent like $600 application fees on them. Thats like one month's rent 😱

Yes but he knows where his education is compared to the "best." I'm not disagreeing it was not an "investment" but he is the type of guy who you would describe as "amazing" or "crazy", maybe amazingly crazy.

One way to look at it, no one can tell him that he is not as smart as an MD b/c he has the score to prove it.

 

[KHep]

Yes but he knows where his education is compared to the "best." I'm not disagreeing it was not an "investment" but he is the type of guy who you would describe as "amazing" or "crazy", maybe amazingly crazy.

One way to look at it, no one can tell him that he is not as smart as an MD b/c he has the score to prove it.

That's awesome!🙂