School reputation

[firstborn]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to start a matters vs. doesn't argument on undergraduate reputation. I just wanted to know what others, and any AdComm's willing to comment, thought what school reputation means. For instance, I only ever hear "state school vs. ivy" as the standard, but this is not very informative to me. For example, if I were to make a list of national universities (barring liberal arts schools for now), what is the average difference in "reputation/prestige" between them?

1. Very top (HYPSM)
2. Rest of top (Cornell, UPenn, etc)
3. High (Northwestern, WUSTL, Rice)
4. Flagship state U (UW-Madison, UM-Twin Cities)
5. Non-flagship state U's (UW-Whitewater)
6. Other even less heard of school's
7. CC's

I was also wondering if the supposed difference school reputation makes in the application process is solely one of academic rigor? For instance, lets say a 3.85 at UW-Madison and a 3.75 Cornell in similar majors both get a balanced 36 on the MCAT. Does that more or less equalize their academic potential and admission chance regardless of reputation, or are there certain admissions advantages to a big name school other than the usual grade deflation, more competition, class difficulty, etc.?

Sorry for the long winded thread and thanks for the responses!

 

[NickNaylor]

The name on your school alone won't do anything for you. It might get you an interview invite assuming the rest of your application is at least mediocre, but that's it.

Ivy students are so heavily represented at the top schools (in my opinion) because 1) they are more than likely very intelligent and hard-working, demonstrated by the fact that they are attending an Ivy; and 2) have great opportunities fostered by the institution with respect to ECs, especially research. Both of those things have trickle-down effects in which Ivy students are more likely to get prestigious awards, to do research at big name labs, etc., all of which are advantageous for med school applications.

That's not to say that these opportunities aren't available at a "flagship" state school - in fact, many, if not most, of them are. But at large state schools these opportunities are generally harder to get access to simply because of the number of students trying to get involved in them. Some of the lower ranked schools likely don't have the same opportunities available as the Ivies. Again, that's not necessarily a deal-breaker - students from those schools get into great med schools - but I imagine it's more difficult to get those same experiences and accolades at a less well-known, less well-resourced school than it is at a HYP-type school.

The point here is that, from what I've seen, it's not the name that directly puts you at an advantage in the application process; it's the all but guaranteed opportunities for success that are available to you at an Ivy that are either absent or more difficult to get into at other schools that help you out. In that regard, I think the Ivies have a tremendous advantage, though, importantly, those things are just limited to the true Ivies.

 

[firstborn]

The name on your school alone won't do anything for you. It might get you an interview invite assuming the rest of your application is at least mediocre, but that's it.

Ivy students are so heavily represented at the top schools (in my opinion) because 1) they are more than likely very intelligent and hard-working, demonstrated by the fact that they are attending an Ivy; and 2) have great opportunities fostered by the institution with respect to ECs, especially research. Both of those things have trickle-down effects in which Ivy students are more likely to get prestigious awards, to do research at big name labs, etc., all of which are advantageous for med school applications.

That's not to say that these opportunities aren't available at a "flagship" state school - in fact, many, if not most, of them are. But at large state schools these opportunities are generally harder to get access to simply because of the number of students trying to get involved in them. Some of the lower ranked schools likely don't have the same opportunities available as the Ivies. Again, that's not necessarily a deal-breaker - students from those schools get into great med schools - but I imagine it's more difficult to get those same experiences and accolades at a less well-known, less well-resourced school than it is at a HYP-type school.

The point here is that, from what I've seen, it's not the name that directly puts you at an advantage in the application process; it's the all but guaranteed opportunities for success that are available to you at an Ivy that are either absent or more difficult to get into at other schools that help you out. In that regard, I think the Ivies have a tremendous advantage, though, importantly, those things are just limited to the true Ivies.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks a lot! So you're saying in theory, someone from a flagship state school could have equivalent numbers and EC's as someone from an ivy, but that rarely happens in practice due to the availability of those options at ivies?
What does make a research opportunity better or worse? Is it the amount of publications, chance of publication by an undergrad, the overall name/work done by the lab, or some other factor? I'm presuming that the actual basic science work done is similar in both places/

 

[NickNaylor]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks a lot! So you're saying in theory, someone from a flagship state school could have equivalent numbers and EC's as someone from an ivy, but that rarely happens in practice due to the availability of those options at ivies?
What does make a research opportunity better or worse? Is it the amount of publications, chance of publication by an undergrad, the overall name/work done by the lab, or some other factor? I'm presuming that the actual basic science work done is similar in both places/

No, not necessarily to the first part. One's numbers are more a reflection of individual effort and the school's grading policies. That can definitely vary, and I don't think students from one particular class of school are more likely to do better than another class.

Most large universities will do quality bench work, but you'd be surprised - my undergrad had very little biology bench work happening, so doing relevant biological research was all but impossible. At a HYP school (and even to a large extent flasgship state schools), you'll more than likely do research at a lab that is very well funded, which has obvious advantages. Additionally, the professors you work with are likely experienced and well-established, so you're more likely to do work that is both productive and likely to get presented/published. The advantage isn't just limited to research, though: at a school with lots of funding, for example, you might be able to get EC stuff funded by the school, which will give you more flexibility to both start something new and do things that truly interest you.

It's hard to speak in generalities because things vary so much from one school to the other. My point is that you'll generally have an advantage at HYP schools not because of the name, but because of the opportunities those names present to you.

 

[Barcu]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks a lot! So you're saying in theory, someone from a flagship state school could have equivalent numbers and EC's as someone from an ivy, but that rarely happens in practice due to the availability of those options at ivies?
What does make a research opportunity better or worse? Is it the amount of publications, chance of publication by an undergrad, the overall name/work done by the lab, or some other factor? I'm presuming that the actual basic science work done is similar in both places/

I went to a large, well-funded flagship state school and there were opportunities all around to do research, including a ton of bench research (we had three different bio departments, chem/biochem too). It's not that great opportunities are not out there at non-top schools, but the chance of getting into a well-connected lab with pubs is better at the Ivies. Still, if you go to a large state-school, these opportunities do exist.

The problem with state schools I've seen is that many people get lost. There are so many opportunities and so few people actually checking up on you. It's not quite the environment that smaller schools tend to have.

And people like to throw around this "equivalent stats" scenario, but it's really hard to call anyone's app too similar to another. What class brought down the gpa? What are the ECs?

The major point (like NickNaylor said) is that hard-working, intelligent people get into Ivies, which have these amazing opportunities for ECs.

I wouldn't worry too much about the prestige of your school though. If you get a solid gpa/MCAT and have interesting ECs, you should be able to get in somewhere coming from any school. If you are really set on Harvard Med School, an ivy would really help you out. If you want to get into medical school (even some of the better ones), your school doesn't matter too much. It just matters what you do with your opportunities.

 

[Starlightembers]

I just want to reiterate what has already been said in that a lot of the top schools also, by default, have the resources their students need to build a competitive resume: abundant opportunities for research and publication (things that are, essentially, a necessity for top medical schools), unique ECs, and so forth. If a lower-ranked university, or even LAC, had such things that would allow their students to stand out, I think it is safe to say their students would fare nearly as well as, if not equal, to those attending Ivy League-caliber universities. In fact, as I mentioned in another thread, there is a local liberal arts college that is ranked in the 50s by USN&WR*. Yet, their students have, on average, a 78% success rate when applying to medical school/colleges (for comparison, if I remember correctly, UPenn's is 71%). Though I am sure there are a lot of reasons contributing to this, the one thing this school excels at is making connections and opportunities for their students, many of them with highly regarded and prestigious institutions. As an example, they created a semester program *just* for their students at a highly-regarded graduate school/research institution with direct ties to a top ranked medical school. Among a few other such programs outside of science. In summary, this lower-ranked, private LAC has the opportunities one might find at an Ivy and, as such, their students fair very well in the application process.

The point is, it's not where you go; but what you do once you're there. Even at a state school, flag-ship or not, if you seek it out, are pro-active, etc, you can find the opportunities and resources you need. The difference is, at private, top schools, it is very hard to ignore or miss these opportunities; at the majority of state schools (I can think of a few exceptions within my state; however, these exceptions are state schools that modeled themselves after small, LACs), it can be very easy to miss them. Search it out and, in most cases, you will find.

I should say, however, that this doesn't mean the name of your school doesn't matter at all, because it does count for something (the high-quality, rigorous academics at these schools are well-known and respected from the get-go; thus, a high GPA from such a school, by association, will be seen in a better light than an equal GPA from Ponduck U); it will just not be the thing that makes or breaks you.

 

[Hotshy]

I attend my State's flagship university, which is a top 20 public. There is an incredible amount of research being done in essentially every department. We also have 3 departments in biology. A research position in a genetics lab, was actually relatively easy for me to acquire. So at a flagship I wouldn't say finding research positions is difficult.

But again as Nicknaylor mentioned earlier, funding is a clear problem. I am in the process of starting a new student organization on campus, which has well-respected faculty members backing it. Despite the support the department essentially told me that the money was not there. Now I have to go through all these other extraneous channels to get something going. Other than that I truly don't feel limited and by attending my state's flagship university I have actually built some strong relationships at the state's medical school, which is always helpful.

 

[Kangaroo Paw]

NickNaylor definitely hits the nail on the head: I completely agree with his assessment of why Ivy League graduates have an advantage. However, I think this thread kind of ignores highly ranked LACs a little bit. The Top 10 or so LACs also provide incredible opportunities for their students in terms of research as well as other things, and in addition provide a (relatively) supportive yet rigorous academic and social environment. For me personally, if I had attended even a large Ivy League university, I feel like I would have been a bit lost. My LAC, for example, does extremely well with med school/grad school admissions, probably better than some Ivies (especially Cornell and UPenn, which have so many pre-meds that it becomes difficult to stand out), because relative to the number of resources, there aren't that many students-- meaning that each student has access to some really cool stuff. The downside, however, is that while it is manageable to get a research position in a biology/chemistry lab, there isn't a wide variety of research actually going on, so you're limited to research that usually has relatively little to do with the biomedical sciences. I'd definitely not discount LAC's as excellent colleges to attend as a pre-medical student, and the education you can receive at one is comparable to some of the top Ivies in rigor and breadth.

/endrantonLACs 😎

tl;dr-->
LAC's are amazing places to be a pre-medical student if you're sufficiently motivated. Not enough LAC love on this site 😛

 

[ponyo]

Ivy pros:

-Enormous funding, for research in labs as well as random fun projects/study abroad/etc.
-For Harvard, Yale, Penn, Hopkins, etc., more opportunity for close interaction with/mentorship by physicians/physician scientists who are leaders of their fields/subspecialties.
-Better opportunities in other fields if you decide to switch or to branch out from medicine (esp. anything business/politics related)
-Cold calling for anything is easier for you
-Very supportive, responsive, and highly accomplished alum network--I've reached out to LOTS of alums in 6-7 fields I don't know and so far everyone has respinded, including CEOs, ex Rhodes, etc., and many have offered informational interviews
-You meet a lot of extremely hard-working and inspired people on a daily basis--people who are national champions in all sorts of things, who signed $400k deals yesterday, etc. It's definitely interesting, to say the least.
-Opportunities to study abroad, even for pre-meds!
-Awesome advising system, at least at my school.
-If you're the type of person who has trouble motivating yourself but is actually fairly smart, I think it's helpful to surround yourself with motivated people so that you don't get complacent (this is a personal problem of mine).
-This was said to me by a Caltech tour guide: "If you like smart guys, coming here will be like a little kid in a candy store."

Ivy cons:

-Can be expensive if you family > upper middle class or if you go to a lower Ivy with less fin. aid
-Much harder to stand out. I personally would prefer not to go to any university where I would rank academically in the bottom 50% for any reason (this could be because you have to work a lot on the side/have other commitments/want to pursue many other interests, etc... not an intelligence thing)
-Some people in some schools are real spoiled d-bags. Mine is not so bad, but having visited a lot of these schools, things can get a little nauseating.
-A lot of the ones who aren't d-bags are just really sheltered. "How do people survive on $40k a year?!" has been asked many, many times. Coming from an impoverished childhood this pisses me off sometimes. Also, efforts to make "lower class Americans" on food stamps buy organic food are pretty hilariously sad.
-People are really busy. I personally like this because I like to be doing lots of stuff at once, but a huge downside to this is that you have less time to develop long-term friendships. Unless you're in a club/multiple classes with a friend, it takes quite a bit of effort to see them. Back when I had a roommate I used to have to make dinner appts 1 week ahead of time, and I still do that with pretty much all of my friends.
-Accomplishment ****** kind of suck. Sometimes I get sucked into these mutual-masturbatory conversations in which the two people just cyclically praise each other's accomplishments while pretending to be modest, and they are impossible to leave. Last time I tried to get out of one, I ended up accidentally signing up for army recruitment. It's kind of like when girls talk about how hot the other person is, but with your resume.

 

[Slack3r]

-Some people in some schools are real spoiled d-bags. Mine is not so bad, but having visited a lot of these schools, things can get a little nauseating.

This is not unique to Ivy League schools.

 

[NickNaylor]

This is not unique to Ivy League schools.

Definitely not limited to Ivies. Most of the people that I've talked to that went to HYP schools say that those people definitely cling to their own. It's not like you'll be dealing with these people on an all that regular basis.

 

[Starlightembers]

@Starlightembers: It's 84%, not 71% for UPenn.

Looking back over the page I got my numbers from, it appears I was simply looking at an older page (2008), that also included all UPenn applicants - alumni/post-baccs included. http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/gradprof/healthprof/parents.html#success

Every year, Penn students fare well above the national average in applying to medical school. The statistics we have regarding applicants for Fall 2008 admission to medical school demonstrate Penn's strength as a "pre-med school." Nationally, only 46% of the individuals who applied for Fall 2008 admission to allopathic (MD degree-granting) medical schools were admitted. However, among the 346 Penn applicants (both current students and alumni) for Fall 2008 admission, 245 of them, or 71%, were accepted.

Thank you for the current, more relevant data, though.

For whatever reason, it has gone up rather significantly. If what you're citing is correct, this is true at other Ivies, too. Cornell cites their 2009 statistics at 71%, for example, (for first time, undergrad applicant) http://www.career.cornell.edu/downloads/Health/PreappGuide10.PDF.

(Of course, my data for this LAC is from around that time, too)

Meh.

Edit: Ponyo, going to agree with others here in saying that sense of entitlement and/or naivety about the hardships some face is not limited to Ivies. I'm unsure about how it is in state schools; but this is true for any even somewhat selective, private uni or LAC (especially LACs - there are a ton of people in those who simply have no idea).

On the flip side, with the exception of a few of those, I feel that, if you're lucky/search hard enough, you can fine non-Ivies that have those things. You'll likely be guaranteed to find them at any Ivy; but there are some colleges, especially some of the private, we-have-so-much-endowment-and-connections-we-don't-know-what-to-do-with-it LACs, where you can also get those things.

Once again, not saying the name of school is not significant or that Ivies aren't top, amazing unis, or that they don't have awesome resources/opportunities, just that it's not so black/white in terms of what's available at Ivies vs what's available at non-Ivies.

 

[penguinism]

I would think that at an Ivy, it can be hard to stand out amongst all of the other pre-med students. They may have lots of opportunities, but you will be fighting with tons of other intelligent students for the best ones! My parents pushed me away from Ivy schools, and retrospectively, I am glad that they did. My (run-of-the-mill) university has provided me with a lot of opportunities (including a great research position with publications). The faculty here are great, and they think highly of me as well. Overall, I think that students should choose where they feel the most comfortable, because there will likely be great opportunities at any university - you just have to find them!

 

[ponyo]

Edit: Ponyo, going to agree with others here in saying that sense of entitlement and/or naivety about the hardships some face is not limited to Ivies. I'm unsure about how it is in state schools; but this is true for any even somewhat selective, private uni or LAC (especially LACs - there are a ton of people in those who simply have no idea).

On the flip side, with the exception of a few of those, I feel that, if you're lucky/search hard enough, you can fine non-Ivies that have those things. You'll likely be guaranteed to find them at any Ivy; but there are some colleges, especially some of the private, we-have-so-much-endowment-and-connections-we-don't-know-what-to-do-with-it LACs, where you can also get those things.

Once again, not saying the name of school is not significant or that Ivies aren't top, amazing unis, or that they don't have awesome resources/opportunities, just that it's not so black/white in terms of what's available at Ivies vs what's available at non-Ivies.

I don't think it's black/white either. I do, however, think that you'd have a far easier time finding an entitled, spoiled person at an HYP than at most state schools. I wouldn't generate that to an individual level, but the group difference is not negligible.

Outside of the science bubble, in many, many of the student clubs, it is just assumed that you come from a well-off background and that you can afford to attend all the events, buy your own tux/dress for the regular formal occasions, pay dues, host friends in your parents' summer house during tours, etc. And I haven't even started on the Greeks or the exclusive groups. Obviously, these clubs exist everywhere, but I am not commenting on their existence but rather on their relative prevalence.

I actually have a close friend who masqueraded as part of the lower upper class for his entire undergrad, going as far as asking his parents to borrow money from relatives so he could host his friends with feigned grandeur. His plan succeeded--he inserted himself perfectly into the old boys' club and with the career he now has, his family will likely never have to worry about money again. The story remains disturbing, especially because I honestly believe that he wouldn't have been as successful had he been honest with his rich friends, which would probably have made things awkward when they made jokes about public schools.

Usually I'm on the other side of this debate, telling people that 50% of our students get some financial aid. But the truth is that this also means 50% of our parents make $200k+, and it would be foolish to think that doesn't have a significant impact on the culture.

Ultimately, I think the opportunities are worth it. I know they exist elsewhere, too, but at least in my own case, I know that with a different school name on my otherwise unremarkable resume, I would have had zero chance getting some of my internships/mentors/etc. I would probably have had to actually be intelligent and competent, and that's just too much to ask 😛

PS 100% agreement on some of the pretentious LACs. They are like fun-sized Ivies.

 

[Guy Montag]

You may be better off at a solid state/private school (as long as you back it up with a 30+ MCAT). For many people, top tier private schools can be expensive. I just happen to get a lot of need-based aid where I attend, and so I've been fortunate. Also, unless you attend a school that inflates, it is difficult to come out with the same GPA that you may have received elsewhere. This is being a little presumptuous, but it's often true. Finishing top 20% at Hopkins and standing out is generally going to be harder than at most places. If there's no inflation to compensate, you're looking at a lot of good students with < 3.5 GPA. I know plenty of people here with < 3.5 that aren't slackers when it comes to classes, and got solid to very good MCAT scores.

 

[Guy Montag]

PS 100% agreement on some of the pretentious LACs. They are like fun-sized Ivies.

I heard Middlebury is nearly unbearable. It stopped me from applying lol.

 

[Starlightembers]

I don't think it's black/white either. I do, however, think that you'd have a far easier time finding an entitled, spoiled person at an HYP than at most state schools. I wouldn't generate that to an individual level, but the group difference is not negligible.

I 100% agree with you. When I was referring to non-Ivies with similar attitudes, I was mainly referring to private LACs. Though you do attract some of these students at state schools - but even then, they tend to be a slightly different breed (not better or worse, just...different) - that is not the case on a more macro (vs micro) level.

PS 100% agreement on some of the pretentious LACs. They are like fun-sized Ivies.

Exactly.

And..."Fun sized Ivies!" LOL. Have not quite heard them described that way before; but, yes, that is completely fitting.

Outside of the science bubble, in many, many of the student clubs, it is just assumed that you come from a well-off background and that you can afford to attend all the events, buy your own tux/dress for the regular formal occasions, pay dues, host friends in your parents' summer house during tours, etc. And I haven't even started on the Greeks or the exclusive groups. Obviously, these clubs exist everywhere, but I am not commenting on their existence but rather on their relative prevalence.

Yikes. That just speaks of such sheltered naivety to me...ugh. Intellectually, I do understand how; but it will never cease to amaze me that people can get through an average 18 or so years of their life without a basic awareness of what people actually go through and how to be sensitive to that. Of course, this also likely speaks to something worse than that: an assumption held among many of the upper-middle class - upper-class that those coming from disadvantaged backgrounds are inherently less able, less intelligent, etc.

Actually, and I guess this goes back to the first point about LACs, is that one of the local private, liberal arts colleges is *exactly* like that (well, minus the fraternity). It's especially palpable because the area surrounding the one the campus is in directly (so, less than five minutes away) is rather impoverished/run down/crime-ridden. I use this college's library sometimes (they get money if they open it up to the public) when I'm in the area and the conversations I hear seem to very much mirror this attitude.

I actually have a close friend who masqueraded as part of the lower upper class for his entire undergrad, going as far as asking his parents to borrow money from relatives so he could host his friends with feigned grandeur. His plan succeeded--he inserted himself perfectly into the old boys' club and with the career he now has, his family will likely never have to worry about money again. The story remains disturbing, especially because I honestly believe that he wouldn't have been as successful had he been honest with his rich friends, which would probably have made things awkward when they made jokes about public schools.

That's *incredibly* disturbing. I'm glad things ultimately worked out for him and I respect/admire what it took for him to get there; however, any environment that fosters these types of situations just sounds so incredibly toxic and frustrating. I'm not in any way bashing on Ivies - especially since, if I were honest, I would have absolutely loved and been happiest in that type of intellectual environment - however, in hindsight, I'm sort of glad that I didn't/won't end up at one for undergraduate. Especially in context of how my middle and high school years went (a lot of really awful stuff happened), it sounds like I would have been constantly fighting off the urge to bang my head into a wall.

Usually I'm on the other side of this debate, telling people that 50% of our students get some financial aid. But the truth is that this also means 50% of our parents make $200k+, and it would be foolish to think that doesn't have a significant impact on the culture.

I guess this is my own lack of experience because, though I know people do back this much (we *are* on a pre-med forum), it still astounds me. Out of curiosity, for those that do receive aid, how complete is it usually (if you know)?

Ultimately, I think the opportunities are worth it. I know they exist elsewhere, too, but at least in my own case, I know that with a different school name on my otherwise unremarkable resume, I would have had zero chance getting some of my internships/mentors/etc. I would probably have had to actually be intelligent and competent, and that's just too much to ask 😛

Hahaha. Though, to note, the LAC I keep bringing up as an example of having great opportunities essentially makes the connection for you. Of course, you can't be a complete failure; but, otherwise, it's there. The alumni network is incredibly strong, too. I don't go there, per se; but I will be attending an affiliated, mini-version (complicated/long story) and they are extraordinarily similar (for various reasons, I had to delay actual college entrance - not counting courses taken at local CC and State Uni - until January).

 

[IlDestriero]

FWIW, my SMP has about 50% of the students from Ivy league schools, so it didn't seem to help them much.

I think the only association that you can make with this data is that many people that attended expensive elite private schools can attend expensive SMP programs to increase their odds of success.

 

[ponyo]

Yikes. That just speaks of such sheltered naivety to me...ugh. Intellectually, I do understand how; but it will never cease to amaze me that people can get through an average 18 or so years of their life without a basic awareness of what people actually go through and how to be sensitive to that. Of course, this also likely speaks to something worse than that: an assumption held among many of the upper-middle class - upper-class that those coming from disadvantaged backgrounds are inherently less able, less intelligent, etc.

It's strangely understandable, though, if you think about how sheltered we are to the plight of the rest of the world. I feel like a giant douche every time I talk to relatives in China. Your environment just shapes you that way. I have not met a single person here who isn't completely fluent in at least one foreign language, and exactly two who don't speak French. So people assume that if they talk in French from time to time you will understand them--a good assumption, albeit probably unfathomable to a lot of people.

That's *incredibly* disturbing. I'm glad things ultimately worked out for him and I respect/admire what it took for him to get there; however, any environment that fosters these types of situations just sounds so incredibly toxic and frustrating. I'm not in any way bashing on Ivies - especially since, if I were honest, I would have absolutely loved and been happiest in that type of intellectual environment - however, in hindsight, I'm sort of glad that I didn't/won't end up at one for undergraduate. Especially in context of how my middle and high school years went (a lot of really awful stuff happened), it sounds like I would have been constantly fighting off the urge to bang my head into a wall.

I think it is easy to stay away from that sector of the school, provided that one has no interest in business and politics. The science part of the school is very down-to-earth (I'll take pre-med gunners any day), since so many of us come from immigrant families. But if you really want to make an impact in business/politics, no matter what background you come from, it's pretty inevitable that you'll be dealing with these people one day, and undergrad is a good time to learn the rules and to make those connections. I'm pretty sure, though, that had I tried his strategy, I would have eventually snapped and gone on a killing spree.

I guess this is my own lack of experience because, though I know people do back this much (we *are* on a pre-med forum), it still astounds me. Out of curiosity, for those that do receive aid, how complete is it usually (if you know)?

I really don't know the big picture for this, but my family is now in the top 10% nationally in terms of household income and I get about 90% financial aid before external scholarships. I would not have been able to afford to attend any college that I can't pay for with term and summer jobs, which... eliminates a lot of schools, barring horrible loans...

Hahaha. Though, to note, the LAC I keep bringing up as an example of having great opportunities essentially makes the connection for you. Of course, you can't be a complete failure; but, otherwise, it's there. The alumni network is incredibly strong, too. I don't go there, per se; but I will be attending an affiliated, mini-version (complicated/long story) and they are extraordinarily similar (for various reasons, I had to delay actual college entrance - not counting courses taken at local CC and State Uni - until January).

Alumni networks are the BEST (and also incredibly humbling). I get the impression that LACs give you a lot of really awesome and interesting niche connections and I would imagine that the small size of the college gives an extra layer of intimacy when you reach out to alums, though of course I could be wrong.


I've always wondered - what are the sciences like at LACs? I never looked into them so I really don't know much.

 

[Starlightembers]

It's strangely understandable, though, if you think about how sheltered we are to the plight of the rest of the world. I feel like a giant douche every time I talk to relatives in China. Your environment just shapes you that way. I have not met a single person here who isn't completely fluent in at least one foreign language, and exactly two who don't speak French. So people assume that if they talk in French from time to time you will understand them--a good assumption, albeit probably unfathomable to a lot of people.

Very good point. There are likely those in other countries who, if they heard the way we talk about our lives, would be astounded by our own ignorance, lack of awareness, etc. I do, however, think it's less understandable to not be aware of what is happening within driving distance from you, versus the rest of the world. Not that it's hard to ignore those plights - just that, it wouldn't/shouldn't be hard for many to expose and make themselves aware of it, either.

Of course, I think the thing is, is that a good portion of these students likely have had some sort of experience with a population that has disadvantages. I don't know a single person from my high school who was serious about going to college that didn't volunteer with such a group (by the way, just to be clear, I don't agree with these checklist activities; or, rather, I don't agree with the schools requiring them, per se. That's another rant, though). I just highly doubt they ever considered that people from those backgrounds would be where they are and, when they do end up there, it seems (from what you're saying) they have to almost hide themselves to succeed. I guess my point is that it's one thing to make an assumption that the person you're talking to is from an affluent background; but a different thing to disrespect them when you find out they're not. Even you said it in your example - you feel like a douche when you talk to your family in China. Do they feel like douches when they make remarks and act as they do?

I think it is easy to stay away from that sector of the school, provided that one has no interest in business and politics. The science part of the school is very down-to-earth (I'll take pre-med gunners any day), since so many of us come from immigrant families. But if you really want to make an impact in business/politics, no matter what background you come from, it's pretty inevitable that you'll be dealing with these people one day, and undergrad is a good time to learn the rules and to make those connections. I'm pretty sure, though, that had I tried his strategy, I would have eventually snapped and gone on a killing spree.

You mentioned the science bubble; however, that very much would be a problem for me. I do love basic science research - even more so when it's clinical/transnational - however, I also have a strong interest in health and public policy, health economics, etc; in fact, it's where my strongest interests lie. I don't doubt I will have to deal with these people one day, if I chose to continue to pursue that; however, there's a lot of economics and policy research occurring at the LAC I chose and, though I don't doubt many of the students and professionals lack some awareness, I never got the feeling in my talks/encounters (which went beyond basic student tours) that they had a holier-than-thou attitude. If anything, they seemed to be very open/accepting and even encouraging to the EOP (Educational Opportunity Program) students joining in.

I couldn't imagine doing what that student did. And I do agree on that - if I ever have to do this, I'm pretty sure I'll just break. I tend to (hope) think that having the connections, advisory system and support built up before venturing into the larger world of policy, politics, etc will make me less of a safety hazard (I do plan on having it a part of my career).

I really don't know the big picture for this, but my family is now in the top 10% nationally in terms of household income and I get about 90% financial aid before external scholarships. I would not have been able to afford to attend any college that I can't pay for with term and summer jobs, which... eliminates a lot of schools, barring horrible loans...

Thank you for the anecdote. It's just something I've wondered. Financial was a big consideration in choosing schools.

Alumni networks are the BEST (and also incredibly humbling). I get the impression that LACs give you a lot of really awesome and interesting niche connections and I would imagine that the small size of the college gives an extra layer of intimacy when you reach out to alums, though of course I could be wrong.

I can't speak from comprehensive personal experience (yet); however, from what of students from the college have said, and from some alumni reaching out already (before actual matriculation), I would agree. This LAC is extremely, extremely tiny and, though it is the child of a more well-known LAC (and, thus, is respected...as I said, the school is sort of in a unique situation), it has only been around since the 60s. The result is a very intimate, very supportive and, this is coming from about 20 different current students (meant in a positive way), "a dysfunctional family of sorts". The alumni is also highly successful, as well. I was looking through the list and, while I know/am sure there are a lot of them who have gone on to live pretty average lives....some of them, holy crap (I am sure this is 100000x more true for the Ivies). It's astounding that I - someone who hasn't done much with her life up to this point - will have access to a list of top policy and economics researchers, medical school faculty, major researchers (in all fields, those in some more unique professions - a lot of film, documentary types of things, etc.

I've always wondered - what are the sciences like at LACs? I never looked into them so I really don't know much.

There are pros and cons to it, I think. A lot of it is institution-dependent, as well. I can't speak from direct experience. This comes from looking into things, my knowledge of my particular LAC, and a lot of anecdotal accounts from quite a few students.

If you want to get involved in a lot of cutting-edge, heavily funded (especially transnational) biomedical research, it will be hard. You won't have it on campus, most certainly. Some schools, as I have mentioned, do well in making some pretty sweet connections; however, even then, it's not quite the same.

At the same time, the college is small. You can get to know your professors really well and, when you do get involved in research, it's a lot more personal and there is a lot of room for independent research (once again, it depends on what you want to do - a lot of stuff won't be possible). The professors at my LAC try to get students as co-authors, when they do publish, as much as possible (and that's another note - there isn't as much being pushed out).

You can still do a lot of interesting research, it just (most likely) won't be in a hospital/clinical setting (once again, depends on connections). My LAC does a lot of neuroscience stuff, for example.

The facilities can range from great to a throwback from 30 years ago. Very college dependent.

Small classes are, in my opinion, a good thing. Other than the opportunity for good LORs, if you do need help/are struggling/just want to vent about the color of the sky that day, you won't be talking to a stranger. On that note, if you're an awful student, you're pretty screwed - you won't be a stranger, either.


Also, I have no idea how it is for other colleges (LAC or not); but all of our classes, including science, involve a lot of writing and analysis. There are a couple bio classes where a lot of of the class is just reading, discussing and analyzing current literature. You get the standard labs, of course, and they can be intense; however, my school tries to cut down on lectures as much as possible and focus on discussion.

EDIT: Just to note, after reading Kangoroo Paw's post, that the parent LAC of my LAC (once again, complicated) has a strong science department. One of the freshman scholarships they give out actually covers most (if not all) of your tuition/other expenses and gives you a stipend. In return, you spend your first two years working on a fairly independent research project.

Also wanted to put emphasis on the variety again. As I have said, there are two LACs in my area. One is the one I describe as awful, the other exactly the opposite.

 

[firstborn]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for useful replies and great insight! And I'm glad a thread of this topic didn't deteriorate for once.

 

[Kangaroo Paw]

It's strangely understandable, though, if you think about how sheltered we are to the plight of the rest of the world. I feel like a giant douche every time I talk to relatives in China. Your environment just shapes you that way. I have not met a single person here who isn't completely fluent in at least one foreign language, and exactly two who don't speak French. So people assume that if they talk in French from time to time you will understand them--a good assumption, albeit probably unfathomable to a lot of people.

I think it is easy to stay away from that sector of the school, provided that one has no interest in business and politics. The science part of the school is very down-to-earth (I'll take pre-med gunners any day), since so many of us come from immigrant families. But if you really want to make an impact in business/politics, no matter what background you come from, it's pretty inevitable that you'll be dealing with these people one day, and undergrad is a good time to learn the rules and to make those connections. I'm pretty sure, though, that had I tried his strategy, I would have eventually snapped and gone on a killing spree.

I really don't know the big picture for this, but my family is now in the top 10% nationally in terms of household income and I get about 90% financial aid before external scholarships. I would not have been able to afford to attend any college that I can't pay for with term and summer jobs, which... eliminates a lot of schools, barring horrible loans...

Alumni networks are the BEST (and also incredibly humbling). I get the impression that LACs give you a lot of really awesome and interesting niche connections and I would imagine that the small size of the college gives an extra layer of intimacy when you reach out to alums, though of course I could be wrong.


I've always wondered - what are the sciences like at LACs? I never looked into them so I really don't know much.

The sciences at LAC's definitely vary. At my LAC, the sciences are particularly emphasized, and therefore the departments (especially for Biology and Chemistry) are REALLY strong. This emphasis on sciences makes science classes here extremely rigorous, and the workload is unbelievable/enormous. However, I feel that I've gotten an incredible science education, combined with a very solid humanities education. This might sound kind of odd coming from a LAC student, but the sciences here are really, really, really intense. There practically isn't a science course without a three to four hour lab attached, and Bio 101 of all things, is considered one of the hardest courses at the school. I'm a double Spanish/Biology major, and I have to say, the Biology major so far has had better professors and more rigor associated with it. Spanish here is good/very solid, but not quite up to par with Biology.

At other LAC's, though, I've heard that it's kind of the opposite. Like at Middlebury, their Spanish department is probably incredible, yet their sciences aren't so much. It just depends on what the particular college emphasizes.

I kiiiiiind of agree with the "fun-sized Ivy" description. There are definitely some major differences, though. First of all, a lot of LAC's (like mine, for instance) don't allow fraternities/sororities, so the social scene tends to be different. There's more of an emphasis on cooperation among students rather than competition, and it's TOTALLY taboo to ask anyone what kind of grade they received on anything. Students are expected to be extremely smart and resourceful, and the whole "everything is handed to you on a silver platter" myth is actually not really true. All of my so-called advisors have been completely useless, and knew very little to nothing about my two majors or even pre-med. I essentially chose what pre-med classes to take by myself, and determined my course choices through careful planning and balance of my three academic focuses. The whole people-assume-you-have-money thing is something I've never encountered at my LAC. People actually usually assume you CAN'T afford something, and it's generally assumed you're on financial aid unless otherwise stated. Every club I've actively or passively participated in has always gotten College funding to go to any off-campus events/if there are dues for something, and it was very rare that I've even seen anything that cost a student money in terms of extracurricular activities. The only event I've seen that is that way was, ironically, the Pre-Med Society's Spring Break Medical Mission Trip to Central America. This trip cost 2,000 dollars, and was not College-funded. Needless to say, I did NOT go on that trip.

So yeah, LAC's are awesome, and "fun-sized Ivy" only kind of describes them. Oh, and the alumni network is truly amazing. I do think that the small size of the school creates that intimacy, and alums are always really happy to hear from current students.

Hope that helped! 🙂