School that do not have hard science prerequisites

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WLSSTUDENT

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I am have been reading about an oncoming physician shortage and how some schools are changing their requirements for MCAT. Does anyone have a list of the schools. If not maybe we could begin to compose one now. Please share if you have any information. I am trying to decide between NP, PA or MD. I am almost 40 years old have a masters in public health almost completed but not any of the prerequisites.
 
Med schools don't own the MCAT, and the MCAT doesn't own med schools. US MD schools will continue to have requirements that usually include a year each of bio, gen chem, ochem and physics, but sometimes also include biochem/stats/calculus. The additional humanities on the new MCAT are likely to add to this list, not make it shorter. A couple of very competitive schools such as Northwestern don't dictate premed requirements at all.

Content and focus for the MCAT change about once per decade as driven by the AAMC. There will still be boatloads of science on the 2015 exam.

If your undergrad GPA is solid (yes, it still matters) then you can theoretically get your premed work done in one year at a formal full time program. The rest of us who started over 40 did a wide variety of plans to get the prereqs done.

Best of luck to you.
 
Tulane doesn't have any prerequisites. But if you apply without an MCAT that shows mastery of the hard sciences, your application and fees get flushed up* the toilet.


*Because we are below sea level, you know.
 
Go NP or PA. They return on investment as starting med school at 40 is poor. At best you'll be an attending at 48 with a lot of debt and time lost.
 
I am have been reading about an oncoming physician shortage and how some schools are changing their requirements for MCAT. Does anyone have a list of the schools. If not maybe we could begin to compose one now. Please share if you have any information. I am trying to decide between NP, PA or MD. I am almost 40 years old have a masters in public health almost completed but not any of the prerequisites.

First, there isn't a physician shortage. There is a physician distribution problem -- too many trying to be cardiologists in NY and too few trying to be FPs in Bumpkin, South Dakota. You can't fix that by admitting more people. Second, med school admissions have nothing to do with the number of doctors -- we decide that with residency slots. Third, I think people misinterpret schools giving themselves flexibility on prereqs with getting rid of prereqs. When a school says they don't have set prereqs that doesn't mean you can get away with skipping the hard sciences, but it does mean that the guy with a PhD in applied physics might not have to sit through bio 101 if thats all he's missing. For you it wouldn't mean much leeway. You need the prereqs. Schools still need to have a way to gauge how you will fare in the first two years of med school, which is all science courses, and so if you don't have a good recent track record in them it's a Nonstarter. Your public health degree will be more in the EC category and won't give them comfort on how you will fare in biochem or physiology. So no point making a list of programs that don't have strict policies. For you, all are going to want to see the usual prereqs. For that practicing scientist whose science education dwarfs what will be covered in the first two years of med school, maybe there's more wiggle room at some schools than there was five years ago. But not for you or anyone for whom taking the prereqs would actually be an ordeal.
 
Tulane doesn't have any prerequisites. But if you apply without an MCAT that shows mastery of the hard sciences, your application and fees get flushed up* the toilet.


*Because we are below sea level, you know.

You are wrong about this. I spoke with the adcoms at Tulane. They said if you don't have a minimum of 32 on your MCAT they aren't going to even consider you for an interview. Maybe it isn't a "prerequisite" on paper, but it is certainly an understood prerequisite.
 
I say, do what YOU want. The MD/DO route will come with a price, and heavy debt. If you have a family... it will certainly become taxing to support it all. As stated earlier, PA and/or NP may be the best "bang" for your buck... turn around is easier with PA, but a lot of PA programs do require paid clinical work (to apply. At least the ones I was originally interested in. Has that changed?)... so that may be a hurdle.

If dreaming of being a physician is what lets you sleep at night comfortably, I say go for it. I worked super hard... and it was worth it.
 
I won't lie, the idea of no prereq requirements for my old self sounds delightful. (I am almost 30). Keeping that in mind, you still need to do well on the MCAT and if you do not have a science background, how do you expect to do that? You can get a study guide and all that fun stuff, but will it be enough to score well on the exam? I have a minor in biology and I really enjoyed bio classes, but I am not 100% confident I am mastered enough to fly through the MCAT bio sections without prior studying and preparation so do you really think without a science background that you can? The quick route is not always the best...
 
You are wrong about this. I spoke with the adcoms at Tulane. They said if you don't have a minimum of 32 on your MCAT they aren't going to even consider you for an interview. Maybe it isn't a "prerequisite" on paper, but it is certainly an understood prerequisite.
I think we are in violent agreement here.

The OP was bemoaning his lack of class prerequisites. We both agree that Tulane doesn't have any, we got rid of them in 2013.

We also agree that Tulane wants to see an MCAT that shows domination of the basic sciences, or otherwise your application will be pumped uphill into the Mississippi river.

I imagine there are a few schools that don't have official class pre-requisites, because the MCAT basically ensures that you have the hard science knowledge anyway. I heard of one medical school in New York that for a while tried taking students without any demonstrated knowledge of the hard sciences, it was a disaster because everybody kept flunking their boards.
 
Yup, a lot of schools are going to the "areas of competency", but that isn't saying there isn't pre-req requirements. It's more about there isn't "you need to take CHEM 121", it's "you need to take a class that covers what's in "CHEM 121". A perfect example of this is we have a class called QSCI 291 and QSCI 292. These are calculus for biologist classes, and it's exactly the same as a calc class, except they changed all the word problems to be bio related instead of business etc. The new way would say these classes are equal and cover the same competency. The old way might not (bad example because in this specific example they accept both, but you get the point). It's to get rid of specific classes and move to more of a subject based system, but that doesn't mean you don't need to take a class that requires it.

Like they will no longer say you need 2 terms of BIOCHEM, but rather "understanding of chemical events in living systems in terms of metabolism and structure-function relationships of biologically important molecules"
 
+1, I violently agree 😀

No need to get violent here... We can engage in hostile negotiation to result in a conclusion that we all can agree to disagree... or agree to agree.

EDIT: Upon re-reading that... I don't even think that makes sense. I need sleep.
 
You are wrong about this. I spoke with the adcoms at Tulane. They said if you don't have a minimum of 32 on your MCAT they aren't going to even consider you for an interview. Maybe it isn't a "prerequisite" on paper, but it is certainly an understood prerequisite.

Just out of curiosity, did the Tulane adcom you spoke to also provide you with a gpa minimum they consider for an interview?
 
Third, I think people misinterpret schools giving themselves flexibility on prereqs with getting rid of prereqs. When a school says they don't have set prereqs that doesn't mean you can get away with skipping the hard sciences, but it does mean that the guy with a PhD in applied physics might not have to sit through bio 101 if thats all he's missing. For you it wouldn't mean much leeway. You need the prereqs. Schools still need to have a way to gauge how you will fare in the first two years of med school, which is all science courses, and so if you don't have a good recent track record in them it's a Nonstarter. Your public health degree will be more in the EC category and won't give them comfort on how you will fare in biochem or physiology. So no point making a list of programs that don't have strict policies. For you, all are going to want to see the usual prereqs. For that practicing scientist whose science education dwarfs what will be covered in the first two years of med school, maybe there's more wiggle room at some schools than there was five years ago. But not for you or anyone for whom taking the prereqs would actually be an ordeal.
This.
I imagine there are a few schools that don't have official class pre-requisites, because the MCAT basically ensures that you have the hard science knowledge anyway. I heard of one medical school in New York that for a while tried taking students without any demonstrated knowledge of the hard sciences, it was a disaster because everybody kept flunking their boards.
And this!
There is no way around getting some hard science classes when medical school admissions is concerned.

So glad we're all in violent agreement here 😛 (loved the phrase)
 
Just out of curiosity, did the Tulane adcom you spoke to also provide you with a gpa minimum they consider for an interview?

I don't remember a specific GPA minimum. They were more interested in MCAT as a marker, but they also mentioned you should have a strong upward trend if your GPA isn't perfect. I am also a non-trad so the adcom probably tailored the answer to my situation. It may be different for someone fresh out of college.
 
I have a back ground in geology and evolutionary biology. I just haven't finished a year of inorganic and a year of organic chemistry and no physics at all. I worked in the environmental industry forever as a paleontologist.
 
The idea of being an attending at 48 is not that appealing at all! Have you guys heard of the 3 year medical programs?
 
The idea of being an attending at 48 is not that appealing at all! Have you guys heard of the 3 year medical programs?

Being an attending at 48 is not appealing but 47 would be ok? That hardly seems like a significant difference.

The only 3-year program I'm particularly familiar with is NYU's. They only take people who have shown convincing experience (research or clinical) in a specific field; since they are accepting someone to both the school and their residency at the same time, they need the demonstrated guarantee that the person knows what they're getting into.
 
I found two programs one in Texas the other in South Carolina. Well, an extra year would make a difference to me. Please, I don't need to be beat down just would like some questions answered. So far we have kept this discussion positive let's try to keep that way. I wish I would have started in my 20's but instead I was interested in environmental science, that was back in the 1990's when the economy was great and the world seemed at my finger tips. Life will beat you down but I am not giving up!
 
I found two programs one in Texas the other in South Carolina. Well, an extra year would make a difference to me. Please, I don't need to be beat down just would like some questions answered. So far we have kept this discussion positive let's try to keep that way. I wish I would have started in my 20's but instead I was interested in environmental science, that was back in the 1990's when the economy was great and the world seemed at my finger tips. Life will beat you down but I am not giving up!

I'm just trying to say that if one year actually seems significant to you then it's a sign this might not be the right path. There are a lot of things that are unpredictable in medicine and one year just is not a lot of time. Med schools is 4 years for most, sure, but some people will end up taking longer either due to dual degrees or having to take a leave of absence. Residency lengths vary depending on the field you choose. Fellowship lengths also vary depending on the field you choose. If you're going about this process thinking that a year of time is super significant my argument is that you haven't looked at enough of the variables yet to understand what you're getting into.
 
^ agreed. One year is nothing in the scope of things, and shouldn't even factor into your decision. You'll also be pigeon holing yourself in a small amount of applications and really hurt your chances of getting into a school at all.
 
The idea of being an attending at 48 is not that appealing at all! Have you guys heard of the 3 year medical programs?
What's so unappealing about being an attending at 48? I will only be a PGY3 when I'm that old. I'm rather looking forward to being an attending at 49. It's been a fun ride so far!
 
Yes, I can see both points of view. Sazerac I see your point. I can either be an attending at 48 or something else that will not be fulfilling my dreams! So let me make sure I understand the number of years I will be putting into this. I have a BS in geology and am currently finishing a masters in public health administration (which is what started drummed the physician desire back up). How many years am I looking at beyond the four years of medical school?
 
http://www.ehow.com/info_7743863_many-do-need-become-doctor.html
I found this link. All I want to do is become a GP, which the link says I only need a one year internship. I am 39 now, but I need at least a year to finish the hard sciences. Does any one want to share any experience on how they finished their prerequisites.
You can legally become a GP in some states after a one year internship, but you CANNOT practice as a physician now-a-days with less than a 3-year residency. To be licensed as a physician is not the same thing as being able to practice independently, and in the current environment, I doubt you could find a company that would provide malpractice insurance without having completed a residency and being board-certified in a specialty. A 3-year residency after 4 years of medical school is essentially the minimum, even if various state's laws haven't caught up with the reality of medical practice. There might be rare exceptions to this general rule, and there are probably a handful of older physicians still practicing who were "grandfathered" in, but you don't want to go into this expecting to be the extremely rare exception that might not even exist anymore, or when you are ready to enter practice. If you just want to be a general practitioner, completing a 3-year family medicine residency is probably the best choice.
 
Okay, thanks for sharing that makes a difference.
 
Yes, I can see both points of view. Sazerac I see your point. I can either be an attending at 48 or something else that will not be fulfilling my dreams! So let me make sure I understand the number of years I will be putting into this. I have a BS in geology and am currently finishing a masters in public health administration (which is what started drummed the physician desire back up). How many years am I looking at beyond the four years of medical school?
To answer your question: at least 3 years of residency on top of 4 years of medical school (depending on specialty).

As for the discussion in general... Look, I have BS in Chemistry and MS in Biochemistry/Molecular Biology from a foreign university and PhD in Microbiology from a US medical school. Before I even started thinking of applying to medical school I had a year and half of hardcore calculus-based physics including quantum physics, a year of inorganic chemistry with labs, a year of organic chemistry with labs plus a ton of upper level physical chemistry, and a ton of upper level biology courses. I had more than 10 years of biomedical research experience (publications, presentations, awards and all that jazz). I taught medical students at 2 US medical schools. Etc. Yet, since *the vast majority* (yeah, you can find exceptions, but that's what they are - exceptions) of US medical schools required certain courses to be taken at *US* *undergrad* colleges, I made sure to do just that - take the freaking 1 year of each biology, physics, general and organic chemistry at US undergrad colleges. Moreover, I actually ended up taking more than 100 US undergrad credits total in 2 years to satisfy TX state schools that require at least 90 US undergrad credits (I'm a TX resident and I wanted to be increase my chances of being accepted to a medical school, so I wanted to be able to apply to TX schools). In 2 years (all year round: summer semesters, winter semesters, you name it). All while working full time (actually, more than full time because research is not exactly a 9-to-5 job) and doing a bunch of other stuff. And I did get accepted to several good schools this year on my first attempt.
My point is: medical schools say "jump!", you jump. Getting into a US medical school hard as it is, you don't want to limit your application to a tiny minority of schools. So yes, there are exceptions: eg., Cornell will wave (at least some of) its lab requirements if you have a substantial lab research experience - but Cornell is certainly an exception, and there is no guarantee for *anyone* that he or she will get into Cornell, no matter how good his or her application is.
You don't want to waste a year on prereqs - how about applying to only a few schools, not getting in and having to reapply, thus wasting a year anyway?
Finally, if you *really* feel pressured for time, go for PA: 2 years of school and no residency required. PA schools do have requirements, too, but it'll take you less time to become a practicing PA than an MD/DO attending anyway.
 
I too have been looking into this and through a great deal of research I have found that there are five medical schools in the country that I have found so far that have no pre-med pre-requisite classes. The schools are: East Tennessee State, The Medical University of South Carolina ( In Charleston not Columbia), USC, University of Virginia, and believe it or not Stanford. They still require an adequate MCAT score and a good GPA, which are minimal requirements for medical school if you ask me. Not to be negative to anyone else, but you can do whatever you want to do. I am a communications major and the only science classes I have taken in college are those required by my University to graduate. Not saying it is going to be easy, but nothing is impossible if you really want it and fight for it (corny I know). I am on a similar path you are on so Good Luck to you!!! I hope this helped.

I am have been reading about an oncoming physician shortage and how some schools are changing their requirements for MCAT. Does anyone have a list of the schools. If not maybe we could begin to compose one now. Please share if you have any information. I am trying to decide between NP, PA or MD. I am almost 40 years old have a masters in public health almost completed but not any of the prerequisites.
 
I too have been looking into this and through a great deal of research I have found that there are five medical schools in the country that I have found so far that have no pre-med pre-requisite classes. The schools are: East Tennessee State, The Medical University of South Carolina ( In Charleston not Columbia), USC, University of Virginia, and believe it or not Stanford. They still require an adequate MCAT score and a good GPA, which are minimal requirements for medical school if you ask me. Not to be negative to anyone else, but you can do whatever you want to do. I am a communications major and the only science classes I have taken in college are those required by my University to graduate. Not saying it is going to be easy, but nothing is impossible if you really want it and fight for it (corny I know). I am on a similar path you are on so Good Luck to you!!! I hope this helped.

Again, the fact that they say they are not per se required on paper at these places doesn't mean they aren't going to be strongly favored, particularly for a non science major. you are sending yourself down a bad road by reading things the way you want them to be. What I'm saying is for the science major with the advanced physics degree, sure they are going to overlook the intro to bio class. But for the communication major, not so much. The first two years of med school are all science courses.so how you did in difficult science courses in undergrad is of key interest to med schools because they have no frame of reference as to how the A student in communications might do in med school biochem. I think you will find these schools say we don't have prereqs but really don't admit people without really strong science backgrounds.
 
I too have been looking into this and through a great deal of research I have found that there are five medical schools in the country that I have found so far that have no pre-med pre-requisite classes. The schools are: East Tennessee State, The Medical University of South Carolina ( In Charleston not Columbia), USC, University of Virginia, and believe it or not Stanford. They still require an adequate MCAT score and a good GPA, which are minimal requirements for medical school if you ask me. Not to be negative to anyone else, but you can do whatever you want to do. I am a communications major and the only science classes I have taken in college are those required by my University to graduate. Not saying it is going to be easy, but nothing is impossible if you really want it and fight for it (corny I know). I am on a similar path you are on so Good Luck to you!!! I hope this helped.
This list is by no means complete... it took me one google search for Tulane Med Admissions, and one click from that page, to verify that Tulane still doesn't have any prereqs. You should probably check out the other schools mentiomed in this thread too.
 
I too have been looking into this and through a great deal of research I have found that there are five medical schools in the country that I have found so far that have no pre-med pre-requisite classes. The schools are: East Tennessee State, The Medical University of South Carolina ( In Charleston not Columbia), USC, University of Virginia, and believe it or not Stanford. They still require an adequate MCAT score and a good GPA, which are minimal requirements for medical school if you ask me. Not to be negative to anyone else, but you can do whatever you want to do. I am a communications major and the only science classes I have taken in college are those required by my University to graduate. Not saying it is going to be easy, but nothing is impossible if you really want it and fight for it (corny I know). I am on a similar path you are on so Good Luck to you!!! I hope this helped.

All of the schools you listed except Stanford are state schools that accept very few OOS applicants. Each of them will have a few thousand applicants competing for about twenty seats in the class. Stanford is the exception, and it isn't exactly easy to get into. If this plus Tulane is the list of schools you're planning on applying to, chances are you'll be reapplying in a year, after taking the science classes that you really needed all along.
 
@WLSSTUDENT, even if the sciences are not prerequisites at the schools you apply to, I think it would still be hugely beneficial to take them anyway. There is the issue of doing well on the MCAT, as mentioned by others, but you should also remember what the first two years of medical school curricula include at most schools. Most first-years take intense coursework in sciences like biochemistry, physiology, and genetics. At the pace medical school moves, you would be at a serious disadvantage not having had courses in the basic sciences like chemistry and biology, upon which these first year medical school classes are based. That's just my two cents. Best of luck in whatever you decide to pursue!
 
The OP was bemoaning his lack of class prerequisites. We both agree that Tulane doesn't have any, we got rid of them in 2013.

We also agree that Tulane wants to see an MCAT that shows domination of the basic sciences, or otherwise your application will be pumped uphill into the Mississippi river.

I think the larger issue is that too many people misinterpret what it means when a school doesn't require prerequisites, or an MCAT score, or whatever else. It's like selling a house. Say that there's a road where five houses in the last six months all sold for $300k ± $15k. They're all similar in most features. A sixth house, also similar, goes from being listed at $300k to being listed at $1. Does that mean that suddenly a bid of $10 (ten times the asking price!) is competitive? Hardly. The price will still be set by the pool of buyers and how motivated they are, which we can reliably estimate by recent sales of similar stock in the immediate vicinity. What it takes to get into Tulane is an application with credentials no less than commensurate with the rest of the application pool. The same goes for just about every med school not in the Caribbean. As long as medical school admissions is a seller's market- and it will be as long as the number of seats continues to significantly exceed the number of qualified candidates, this is how it'll be.

As has been said, reducing entrance requirements simply gives admissions offices some leeway with selecting candidates. If zombie John Snow wants to go to your medical school, you can admit him even though he may not have all of his prerequisite coursework squared away. Reduced prerequisites are only going to come into play for candidates with superior qualifications; for anyone with a middling or worse application for all intents and purposes they might as well still be required.

That said, the scuttlebutt I've always heard is that Tulane is particularly friendly to non-trads and looks favorably on stories of overcoming hardship or past issues, so there's wiggle room if there's something on your transcript you aren't particularly fond about. Which I'm kinda counting on.
 
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