Schools GPA reputation

[mavric1298]

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I was curious to get other peoples thoughts on this. I have attended multiple collages thru the years (I just turned 28, and previously got an AS), and recently was admitted to UW to finish up a bachelors in bio. I'm not too worried about GPA (3.76 and a 3.74 science) but was curious about how grades from different schools are viewed. My GPA puts me in a the top 10% at UW, and as an example our Chem department has a policy of the median grade needing to be a 2.6 for all classes. Compared to other schools I have attended and my fiancé has attended (Oregon,OSU, Utah,etc), GPA's at UW are way lower.

Do MD schools understand that a 3.8 at OSU vs a 3.8 at UW are two totally different indicators? How much of it do you think is regionalized, as in school's on the west coast knowing that UW is a very competitive school, not suffering from GPA inflation as much as other schools.

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

I got my BS in Biology at UW and I can definitely attest to the fact that it is very challenging to get a 3.8+ GPA there. All the science departments set the mean at a 2.6 as far as I know (definitely Chem and Bio), at least for the lower division classes. That means half the class gets under this grade, and of course many of these classes are full of premeds trying to get a high mark. The other thing that makes UW have a really difficult grading policy is that they don't do letter grades. If you get a 100% as your final grade, you get a 4.0 in the class. However, if you get a 95% for example, you may end up with a 3.5 (there are 0.1 increments, so all numbers like 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 are possible). This is a big disadvantage if you're in the A range, where you would ordinarily get a 4.0 at other schools but at UW you might get a 3.8. My upper division classes were a bit different because many of them were through the graduate school. In those, they took the top five students (in a class of 80-100) and averaged their final scores and gave those top five a 4.0 in the class. Depending on overall performance of the class, they would grade others lower according to how they compared to the top five students. Not sure if that has changed. I graduated in 2005.

I do know that many medical schools consider the rigor of the undergraduate program you attend. Many of them would think more highly of a 3.7 from Harvard than the same GPA from a no-name school. However, I don't know how aware medical schools are of how difficult it is to get a top GPA specifically at UW. I don't want to discourage you though because UW has a terrific bio program. I loved most of my classes there, particularly the upper division classes. With a school that large, the breadth of classes available gives students lots of options to learn about whatever interests them most. Despite the competition for top grades, I also didn't feel like my premed classes were particularly cutthroat. People were nice. I would go again given the choice (and I got into several top 20 schools for undergrad). Also, I got into multiple MD schools this year with my sub-par GPA from UW. So, to answer your question more briefly, yes UW has a tough grading policy, but its probable that medical schools take this into consideration.

Sorry for the super long reply. Hope it's helpful!

 

[mavric1298]

Thats what I was thinking, that to some degree the reputation and name of the school brings something to the table. It really is amazing how much more difficult it is to get top grades at UW then elsewhere. I have loved my classes so far, about to take on biochem which I'm actually really excited about. The thing I have found most interesting is the amount of people that are taking on some of the competitive majors that end up competing with premeds where elsewhere the wouldn't have been in competition. Physics is the perfect example of this, all the engineering students have to get top marks to get into their program.

Thanks for your input, great to hear from another husky!

 

[Five0tomed68]

The topic has been brought up before and there isn't a standing answer. Basically, it seems ADCOM dependent more than anything. The issue is, if you were to apply to eastern programs, they may not be familiar with the vigorous standards of UW.

The below link is one of many on the topic:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/diy-pre-req-school-does-rating-matter.1058022/#post-14985755

Gonnif is an ADCOM member and I think his post provides the best way of approaching the prestige question. Good luck!

 

[Five0tomed68]

I appreciate the praise but will correct it: I am NOT an ADCOM member. I am Executive Director of National Society of Nontraditional Premedical and Medical Students, better known as OldPreMeds.org, a longtime partner of SDN. Because of my position, which I describe as Advocacy, Advisement and Analysis, I have spent the last decade interfacing with both individuals and organization across the premedical and medical education community, including adcoms at MD, DO, and Offshore schools.

I apologize for the mislabeling. Either way your input is always welcome and your advice of attending the best program you can do well in was what I was trying to convey.

 

[Goro]

Nope. A 3.8 is a 3.8. That's admirable whether it's from Harvard or Kutztown State

AdCom members in particular will not have the knowledge of what schools are known for grade inflation, or deflation, or have rigorous programs, etc. However, med schools tend to have particular feeder schools (for example, the entire SUNY system for the NY medical schools, including, naturally, the four SUNY MD schools) and the grads of those programs are a known quantity.


Do MD schools understand that a 3.8 at OSU vs a 3.8 at UW are two totally different indicators? How much of it do you think is regionalized, as in school's on the west coast knowing that UW is a very competitive school, not suffering from GPA inflation as much as other schools.[/quote]

 

[mavric1298]

Nope. A 3.8 is a 3.8. That's admirable whether it's from Harvard or Kutztown State

[/quote]

After talking to a couple family friends that are on adcoms yesterday, they indicated that after the initial screening the reputation and rigors of undergrads are something that is looked at, especially with schools in the regional area, i.e. schools they know better. Getting to talk with them deff gave some more insight into their process as a whole, and the questions they were asking me about what I'm doing to prepare I think really hinted at what they were looking for as an applicant. The summary of both conversations once again went back to holistic, and grades/mcats are basically a foot in the door. If you don't have those first, it becomes an uphill struggle, but having them only puts you into a pile where the rest of you as an applicate gets to shine. One spoke about how EC's/volunteer/etc where much more important than being in the 40% vs 60% of their accepted GPA/MCATs. Very interesting conversations!

 

[kraskadva]

I know (from speaking to some adcoms) that the AAMC compiles school-specific stats from the previous year's applications that it only makes available to adcoms. Any UG school that has 5+ applicants or matriculants get the numbers crunched. But this can work for or against you as it's not average GPA for the school, but average GPA of med school applicants from the school. So if your school has grade deflation, but only the people with 3.8+ GPAs apply to med school, the adcoms don't see that a 3.5 is still a good grade for you.
If you've got a couple of family friends that can maybe share these numbers with you for your school, then it would probably be worth asking, so you'd know how you'd look to adcoms that have no idea about your school's grading policy.

 

[LupaCupcake]

Ultimately, I do not believe it matters THAT much what school you came from. What you need to remember is majority of your competition have a 3.7 or higher. You might be the "top dog" in class right now, but the second you jump into the med school pool then you are one shark amongst many other hungry sharks, all of the little cute fish have been eaten the second they tried to jump in. You need to set yourself apart with more than just grades and MCAT. Find something unique about you that makes you stand out.

For example, I am a military Veteran and I currently work as the Patient Advocate in a locked down behavioral health facility. It is a normal day for me to sit down and talk with a schizophrenic that is not med compliant and believes the nurses are out to kill him, just recently I assisted in a code that involved a doctor being physically attacked and she was injured, I have been a part of a code blue where a PT was almost successful in committing suicide in a rather creative manner, I defend the Patient's Bill of Rights even if that means reporting a staff member for a violation because the PTs are my priority and I am here to advocate for them. All of the experience I have working in this field is something that I will absolutely use to highlight myself and the fact that I am very aware of what it means to work in Psychiatry and I am extremely comfortable and empathetic with this population.

I am nontraditional so I will use my nontraditional life experience to set me apart from all the little kiddies that went straight to college and have no idea what it is like to support themselves (no offense little kiddies, I am an old Mom and I fight for what I want)

Find your uniqueness....what sets you apart other than GPA? Use that!

 

[mavric1298]

Definitely, that is actually the strongest part of my application. I have loads of volunteer work, I traveled to Vietnam and Thailand to setup and run free clinics in rural areas with my father (MD) as well as taught english, my essay stresses how taking time off allowed me to explore myself and find out that medicine was what I really wanted to do, we trained one of our dogs as a therapy dog and volunteer with him regularly, I have worked in healthcare for the past 6 years, started as a CNA, was brought on by a consulting firm to implement EMR and perpetual inventory, was hired by the hospital a year later (which is part of the system of my #1 school which happens to be my state school), and work directly under upper management now. My GPA is going to be lower because of 1 term 10 years ago I didn't drop any classes (while I was dual enrolled in HS) so they are all F's obviously, so I am really banking on trending and my essay to pull me thru. My last 75 credits I have a 3.85 and a sGPA of 3.85, but its amazing what even 4 F's 10 years ago will do to your cGPA. My trend line is also a huge benefactor for me, when broken out year by year and converted to amcas GPAs, I got from a 3.4, to 3.8 to 3.85, with the latest being all science courses. Speaking to your point about all the "little kiddies", I really can't believe how naive some of the kids in AED (premed society) with me are, and how they have no understanding of the real world or anything outside their little sheltered bubble. I recently just finished up my gen chem series, and every other student in the class raised their hand when the teacher asked who was premed (mostly sophs). Out of 290 students, only a small group of us made it thru the entire series, much less with med school worthy grades. I find coming back to school after working in the real world for 10 years, owning a home, getting engaged, etc. brings such a different perspective. I find it truly scary some of the "kiddies" that are applying that I know. I actually feel like I'm a much stronger candidate then an average highschool>undergrad>med applicant with a 3.5, shadowed here and there, and volunteered just to check that box, etc...and it's just about being able to articulate that to adcoms in your essay.

/rant

 

[QuentinT88]

Definitely, that is actually the strongest part of my application. I have loads of volunteer work, I traveled to Vietnam and Thailand to setup and run free clinics in rural areas with my father (MD) as well as taught english, my essay stresses how taking time off allowed me to explore myself and find out that medicine was what I really wanted to do, we trained one of our dogs as a therapy dog and volunteer with him regularly, I have worked in healthcare for the past 6 years, started as a CNA, was brought on by a consulting firm to implement EMR and perpetual inventory, was hired by the hospital a year later (which is part of the system of my #1 school which happens to be my state school), and work directly under upper management now. My GPA is going to be lower because of 1 term 10 years ago I didn't drop any classes (while I was dual enrolled in HS) so they are all F's obviously, so I am really banking on trending and my essay to pull me thru. My last 75 credits I have a 3.85 and a sGPA of 3.85, but its amazing what even 4 F's 10 years ago will do to your cGPA. My trend line is also a huge benefactor for me, when broken out year by year and converted to amcas GPAs, I got from a 3.4, to 3.8 to 3.85, with the latest being all science courses. Speaking to your point about all the "little kiddies", I really can't believe how naive some of the kids in AED (premed society) with me are, and how they have no understanding of the real world or anything outside their little sheltered bubble. I recently just finished up my gen chem series, and every other student in the class raised their hand when the teacher asked who was premed (mostly sophs). Out of 290 students, only a small group of us made it thru the entire series, much less with med school worthy grades. I find coming back to school after working in the real world for 10 years, owning a home, getting engaged, etc. brings such a different perspective. I find it truly scary some of the "kiddies" that are applying that I know. I actually feel like I'm a much stronger candidate then an average highschool>undergrad>med applicant with a 3.5, shadowed here and there, and volunteered just to check that box, etc...and it's just about being able to articulate that to adcoms in your essay.

/rant

Not surprising. Do you really expect a 19 year old sophomore to have "real world" experience?

No, they are in college. Of course they are naive. They really don't know anything else. Think back to when you were 18/19. I for one was no where near as mature, experienced, focused, etc as I am now. But this comes with age for most students. So while I think your 10 years of experience helps with your individual story and overall package, adcoms are not necessarily going to give that an edge over a traditional student who comes straight from undergrad (all things being relatively equal of course with grades and MCATSs)

And I used to be a big proponent of the school gpa debate before as well. I went to a top 20 undergrad (according to US News), so I thought for the longest time that my prestigious and more rigorous undergraduate gpa would be a huge factor in comparison to other students. But the more I have done research, talked to advisers from both my state school post bacc, and also with med school admissions folks, I have realized that the debate is pretty moot. Where you go to school and the gpa you get from said school is only one small factor of many, many, many factors. So it won't make a significant difference where you get your gpa from for pre med classes. Just do well.

Also, I'm a big believer of the MCAT being much more important overall factor than your gpa for getting into medical school.

 

[mavric1298]

^ not that I expected different, just going back and seeing kids those ages in a new light is really eye opening. There is a reason that more and more people are taking a gap year and the average age admitted is getting older and older.

And my point is exactly that, as you pointed out there are "many, many, many" factors, and being a non-trade you most likely have a leg up on most of the nonacademic aspects of an application. You are more mature, you probably have more shadowing, volunteer, teaching, leadership, work ethic, etc etc etc. From what I've gathered from adcoms, all things equal, a wet behind the ear 3.6gpa 30mcat 22 year old isn't going to be as strong of candidate as a 3.6gpa 30mcat 26-30 year old in most cases, exactly because of the reasons you gave. Your more mature, experienced, focused, etc., and again, holistically probably have a stronger app (which defeats the whole "all things equal" precisely because with age most likely the other things no longer are going to be equal)

 

[mavric1298]

^ thanks, it helps to hear things from other people sometimes to affirm what you are thinking. The only problem, is now there is even more pressure to do well, and I don't want to overwhelm myself or hype it up too much and psych myself out. The biggest issue I'm having right now is having the patients to get to the point where I can start to study for it. I'm currently working on the "do I take the jan "old '14" exam or the march first new mcat". They each have a long list of pros and cons, and a lot will change depending on the choice. The things thats kinda eating at me right now is not having any sort of sense of where I am at with the MCAT, and I don't want to waste practice/eval tests just to get a baseline until I really need to (plan is around 6 months out). It's hard having such a mystery element to everything, and it's hard to stay positive sometimes when you see all the hard work you've put in, see this incredible change in yourself, but know your still an odd duck just hoping for someone to give you a shot.

Which MCAT is a whole 'nother story, and even my premed advisor was left saying "6 of one, half dozen of the other"

 

[QuentinT88]

^ I hear you on that. I am gearing up to take the 2015 MCAT as well, so I can relate to the uncertainty surrounding the changes. I plan on taking a Princeton Review course before hand, so hopefully by Summer 2015, the information on the changes, etc will be up to speed