Schools that Don't Accept DO Students for Visiting Clerkships

[Singingpremed]

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As a student about to start a DO-PhD program, I was curious whether you all knew of any schools that do not accept osteopathic students for visiting rotations. I've seen a lot of schools that certainly do when I google, so I was just curious.

Thanks!

 

[Bitsy]

The only school that I am aware of in terms of first-hand experience is that Wash U in St. Louis (associated w/ Barnes Jewish Hospital & St. Louis Children's Hospital) will not allow "non-LCME" students to rotate so that excludes DO students. I even checked with the clinical coordinator and she basically just repeated the same stuff off of the website. I have mainly been looking at clerkships in the midwest though but I am guessing you are going to Kirksville b/c they are the only DO/PhD program that I am aware of. Good luck!

 

[lastcall]

Rush (in Chicago) is another one, I've heard.

 

[tkim]

Part of me thinks that these programs can do whatever they want, part of me thinks it's rather unfair that such restrictions exist.

The AOA will try to assist you if you ask them - this is an email I got the other day:

If you are concerned about your program closing, or if you are ever faced with an unfair requirement or turned away from a program because it “is not open to DOs,” please contact the AOA so that we may assist you. Please email [email protected] or call (800) 621-1773 x8147 to let us know.

 

[MasterShakeDO]

What is even worse in my mind is that some programs charge higher application fees for DO students. Northwestern charges $1000 and I've heard of others up to $3000. That is blatant discrimination.

 

[DragonWell]

According to their website, CMC doesn't accept DO students for visiting rotations.

Due to limited space and capacity, we are only able to accept applications from students of United States allopathic medical schools at this time. We regret that we are currently unable to accept applications from students of osteopathic medical schools or international medical schools.

http://www.carolinasmedicalcenter.org/body.cfm?id=558&oTopID=448

 

[silas2642]

What is even worse in my mind is that some programs charge higher application fees for DO students. Northwestern charges $1000 and I've heard of others up to $3000. That is blatant discrimination.

Yeah, but it could be said that osteopaths are allowed to participate in the allopathic match and even pre-match while the osteopaths won't let the allopaths participate in their match. Now we could call that blatant discrimination as well.

 

[rddoms]

Yeah, but it could be said that osteopaths are allowed to participate in the allopathic match and even pre-match while the osteopaths won't let the allopaths participate in their match. Now we could call that blatant discrimination as well.

While that may be true, allopathic students don't have the OTM background to participate in the osteopathic match. Should it be an option? Probably. To add to it, an allopathic student in an AOA residency would not be able to take the NBOME exams, and the NBME won't allow people in AOA residencies take boards. What's the point in doing a residency without having the option of becoming board certified? I can see both sides of the argument, and the only way to make it completely fair is to change the laws and allow both allopathic and osteopathic students to do either residency, as well as letting candidates from either side take both sets of boards.

It's sad how bureaucracy controls modern medicine to the extent we see now.

 

[dilated]

Part of me thinks that these programs can do whatever they want, part of me thinks it's rather unfair that such restrictions exist.

It's not really unfair. Many schools explicitly state that their standard for allowing students on aways is reciprocity. They are perfectly aware that their students won't (can't?) rotate at DO schools so there is no reason they should have to pay the support costs for students from those schools to rotate there.

 

[TXDO]

I would add BCM to the list. Although it accepts DOs, there is a difference between DO and MD while they put us and Foreign MD in a same non-LCME group and US MD group. They charge with a significantly high fee.

Wow.😱

 

[FutureInternist]

It's not really unfair. Many schools explicitly state that their standard for allowing students on aways is reciprocity. They are perfectly aware that their students won't (can't?) rotate at DO schools so there is no reason they should have to pay the support costs for students from those schools to rotate there.

This would make sense if those schools are denying FMGs as well. If not, then I think it should be open to all.

 

[gclax30]

It's not really unfair. Many schools explicitly state that their standard for allowing students on aways is reciprocity. They are perfectly aware that their students won't (can't?) rotate at DO schools so there is no reason they should have to pay the support costs for students from those schools to rotate there.

I imagine they're going to pay those "support" costs anyway, whether the student is a DO or MD, so I don't buy this for one second.

Northwestern not only charges $1000 tuition for DO students but actually gives stipends of up to $1500 for 'underrepresented' MD students. Us DOs must truly be the bottom-feeders I always thought we were.

 

[tkim]

It's not really unfair. Many schools explicitly state that their standard for allowing students on aways is reciprocity. They are perfectly aware that their students won't (can't?) rotate at DO schools so there is no reason they should have to pay the support costs for students from those schools to rotate there.

There are few, if any, true 'osteopathic' hospitals, and none that will not allow allopathic students to rotate there.

 

[Bitsy]

It's not really unfair. Many schools explicitly state that their standard for allowing students on aways is reciprocity. They are perfectly aware that their students won't (can't?) rotate at DO schools so there is no reason they should have to pay the support costs for students from those schools to rotate there.

What do you mean by explicitly state? I am doing several away rotations and have never seen a website for doing away rotations that has some sort of reciprocity clause on there. The site that I am doing most of my core stuff at allows allopathic students, so that doesn't fit (at least with WashU) with why allopathic schools are not allowing DO students to rotate. Furthermore, as tkim has mentioned, osteopathic hospitals DO allow allopathic students to rotate so that truly blows your reciprocity theory out of the water IMO.

 

[dilated]

The site that I am doing most of my core stuff at allows allopathic students, so that doesn't fit (at least with WashU) with why allopathic schools are not allowing DO students to rotate. Furthermore, as tkim has mentioned, osteopathic hospitals DO allow allopathic students to rotate so that truly blows your reciprocity theory out of the water IMO.

Perhaps they can "rotate" there but the entire point of an away is an audition rotation... for a residency that does not take MD students? I wouldn't call that equal, or very desirable. I forget where I read it, I've been looking at a ton of away rotation pages, but it was something about "School XXX takes students from institutions that it is interested in having its students be able to go to". In other words, they're willing to eat the cost for a Harvard student because they expect Harvard to reciprocate for their students. But they're not willing to eat the cost for a DO student because they know their students aren't going to go there.

 

[tkim]

Perhaps they can "rotate" there but the entire point of an away is an audition rotation... for a residency that does not take MD students? I wouldn't call that equal, or very desirable. I forget where I read it, I've been looking at a ton of away rotation pages, but it was something about "School XXX takes students from institutions that it is interested in having its students be able to go to". In other words, they're willing to eat the cost for a Harvard student because they expect Harvard to reciprocate for their students. But they're not willing to eat the cost for a DO student because they know their students aren't going to go there.

Harvard charges everyone $100.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I would add BCM to the list. Although it accepts DOs, there is a difference between DO and MD while they put us and Foreign MD in a same non-LCME group and US MD group. They charge with a significantly high fee.

Wow.😱

It's not "putting you" in that group, it's that DO schools aren't LCME accredited, and therefore you are in that category.

LCME schools have guaranteed reciprocity - non-LCME schools do not. Some DO schools may allow students to rotate through at the same price they would charge visiting DO students, but that reciprocity is not guaranteed.

 

[binko]

The only school that I am aware of in terms of first-hand experience is that Wash U in St. Louis (associated w/ Barnes Jewish Hospital & St. Louis Children's Hospital) will not allow "non-LCME" students to rotate so that excludes DO students. I even checked with the clinical coordinator and she basically just repeated the same stuff off of the website. I have mainly been looking at clerkships in the midwest though but I am guessing you are going to Kirksville b/c they are the only DO/PhD program that I am aware of. Good luck!

OUCOM has a DO/PhD program.

 

[slick27]

i don't know why you get a DO/phd? I think it would be better to go with md/phd program. You would have a lot more chances to get grants with that degree program.

 

[SteelCity]

i don't know why you get a DO/phd? I think it would be better to go with md/phd program. You would have a lot more chances to get grants with that degree program.

 

[stonewall22]

i don't know why you get a DO/phd? I think it would be better to go with md/phd program. You would have a lot more chances to get grants with that degree program.

NIH doesn't really care what your degree is in...hence the reason foreign scientists come to the United States and do very well in science. All they care about is solid research. So, if you publish in highly regarded peer-reviewed journals it doesn't matter. At least this is what my PhD adviser told me, a foreigner from a pretty weak university. He just happens to publish very well, so he always has NIH funding.

 

[stonewall22]

The only school that I am aware of in terms of first-hand experience is that Wash U in St. Louis (associated w/ Barnes Jewish Hospital & St. Louis Children's Hospital) will not allow "non-LCME" students to rotate so that excludes DO students. I even checked with the clinical coordinator and she basically just repeated the same stuff off of the website. I have mainly been looking at clerkships in the midwest though but I am guessing you are going to Kirksville b/c they are the only DO/PhD program that I am aware of. Good luck!

Does Kirksville have a DO/PhD? I knew about Michigan State, Ohio, and Oklahoma State, and I think PCOM has a DO/PhD program (public health, not basic sciences), but I wasn't aware of Kirksville. Cool...

 

[slick27]

NIH doesn't really care what your degree is in...hence the reason foreign scientists come to the United States and do very well in science. All they care about is solid research. So, if you publish in highly regarded peer-reviewed journals it doesn't matter. At least this is what my PhD adviser told me, a foreigner from a pretty weak university. He just happens to publish very well, so he always has NIH funding.

I didn't want to offend anyone with this statment. I'm going to a DO program in the fall. I just thought that MD schools in general were more research minded. I just thought it would maybe be better for someone who wants to conduct research to really bust their butt to try to get into a md/phd program at all costs. But, i really don't know anything about either programs do/phd or md/phd.

 

[stonewall22]

I didn't want to offend anyone with this statment. I'm going to a DO program in the fall. I just thought that MD schools in general were more research minded. I just thought it would maybe be better for someone who wants to conduct research to really bust their butt to try to get into a md/phd program at all costs. But, i really don't know anything about either programs do/phd or md/phd.

You're probably right...few DO schools that I know of do a lot of research. Michigan State is pretty good though.

 

[Thorazine]

FYI - even if some away rotation websites say they only accept LCME students, call anyway. Many coordinators I spoke with did not seem to be aware that only US allopathic schools were LCME-accredited. I was told that statement meant (to them, at least) that they would only accept US students (MD and DO), but not students from foreign medical schools.

 

[simpleman]

OUCOM has a DO/PhD program.

VCOM has DO/PhD, DO/MPH, and soon, DO/MBA programs

 

[ChiDO]

FYI - even if some away rotation websites say they only accept LCME students, call anyway. Many coordinators I spoke with did not seem to be aware that only US allopathic schools were LCME-accredited. I was told that statement meant (to them, at least) that they would only accept US students (MD and DO), but not students from foreign medical schools.

This. Your best bet is to call the program and ask them. Usually, the "only LCME" is to deter FMGs from rotating there, without realizing that DO schools are under a different accreditation body.

 

[JaggerPlate]

i don't know why you get a DO/phd? I think it would be better to go with md/phd program. You would have a lot more chances to get grants with that degree program.

Technically, you make a good point. From what I can gather MD/PhD programs basically let you get a PhD for free. DO/PhD programs, you pay for the PhD, which results in an assload more debt. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I heard at one point from an X/PhD applicant.

 

[bobg504]

Technically, you make a good point. From what I can gather MD/PhD programs basically let you get a PhD for free. DO/PhD programs, you pay for the PhD, which results in an assload more debt. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I heard at one point from an X/PhD applicant.

This is not true. Most DO/PhD programs make you pay for the DO and provide tuition and stipends for the PhD portion. Some pay for the entire thing. It depends on the program.

 

[bobg504]

I didn't want to offend anyone with this statment. I'm going to a DO program in the fall. I just thought that MD schools in general were more research minded. I just thought it would maybe be better for someone who wants to conduct research to really bust their butt to try to get into a md/phd program at all costs. But, i really don't know anything about either programs do/phd or md/phd.

In general MD institutions have more research funding; however, it should be noted that a majority of literature published is done so by physicians who DO NOT have PhDs. I thought it prudent to mention that a PhD is not necessary to become a physician scientist, nor is an MD for that matter.

 

[JaggerPlate]

This is not true. Most DO/PhD programs make you pay for the DO and provide tuition and stipends for the PhD portion. Some pay for the entire thing. It depends on the program.

Heh ... good to know.

 

[stonewall22]

Heh ... good to know.

In the basic sciences it's very rare for any student to pay tuition for the PhD, and most get a sizable stipend. As far as DO/PhD programs are concerned.

MSU-COM pays a certain portion + a stipend. After all fees are paid you get about $10k/year

OU-COM I believe pays nothing first two years, everything years 3-7

OSU-COM I don't think pays much of anything, I can't remember. Also not many options for research mentors.