Scribes

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EM OR BUST

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Any one use something like this in there ED? Looks like it could def increase the # of patients seen.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070609/news_1b9scribes.html

Aiding ER doctors

Hospital's 'scribes' help them focus more on patients, less on paperwork

By Keith Darcé
STAFF WRITER

June 9, 2007

Doctors struggling to keep pace with the growing volume of patients who pass through Tri-City Medical Center's emergency room are getting help from an unlikely source: college students.



SCOTT LINNETT / Union-Tribune
Emergency room scribe Jackie McDonald (right) took notes and recorded orders for Dr. Neil Joebchen as he examined Christine Greathouse at Tri-City Medical Center in Oceanside. The hospital employs 28 scribes.
The Oceanside hospital has hired undergraduate pre-med students and recent graduates as "scribes" to document physician notes and orders in the emergency room – work that doctors usually do themselves.

That change gives doctors at one of the busiest emergency rooms in San Diego County more time to spend with their patients and provides the students with real-world medical experience they normally wouldn't get until later in medical school.

"It helps doctors stay on task and on track," said Dr. Cary Mells, chairman of Tri-City's emergency medicine department.

Lauren Davie, a University of California San Diego graduate who plans to start medical school in the fall, jumped at the chance to work as a scribe at Tri-City. The 23-year-old Oceanside native had previously worked as a volunteer in emergency rooms, but most of her time was spent helping nurses shuffle papers.

As a scribe, Davie works side by side with doctors as they examine patients, review laboratory results and decide on a course of treatment.

"This is so much hands-on," she said. "You get to know the doctors on a personal level. You get a feel for what it's like being a physician. It's a great way to figure out if this is really what you want to do."



Advertisement Some hospitals have been using scribes in emergency rooms for years, but Tri-City became the first to employ them in San Diego County when the North County hospital launched the program in late February.
While figures weren't available on how many of the nation's 4,000 emergency rooms currently use scribes, Dr. Brian Keaton, who heads the American College of Emergency Physicians, said the number is small. "I know of only a handful of people using scribes across the country," he said.

Keaton likes the idea of using pre-med students to do the work.

"It's something that contributes to patient care and . . . to (the scribe's) education. Anything we can do that allows me to be more effective as a clinician, those are good things," he said.

Scribing, an ancient profession, dates back at least 4,000 years to the age of Egyptian pharaohs, hieroglyphics and papyrus scrolls. Scribes have been used by kings, merchants, churches and cities to record historic events, business transactions and judicial decisions.

Over time, scribes morphed into accountants, historians, journalists and lawyers. But the vocation also has endured in its more basic form in jobs such as court reporting.

The 28 scribes who work at Tri-City are employed through ScribeAmerica, a medical labor service based in Lancaster. Before they start work, each scribe completes a two-week training course to learn medical terminology, become familiar with emergency room computers and practice taking physician notes, said Sarah Esquibel, chief operating officer of ScribeAmerica.

The scribes work shifts of eight to nine hours – about the same as doctors – and their pay starts at $10 an hour, Esquibel said.

That's in line with the $9 to $13 average hourly wage that inexperienced nursing aides, orderlies and attendants earn in the county, according to the San Diego Workforce Partnership's 2007 Occupational Outlook Report.

Scribes shadow doctors wherever they go in the emergency room, using wireless tablet computers to record information spoken by the physicians. The tablets are part of the hospital's electronic medical records system that lets doctors and nurses access many patient records on computers anywhere in the hospital at the click of a mouse.

Scribes can record information by tapping the tablet's touch-sensitive screen, by writing longhand with a light pen or by plugging the pad into a portable keyboard.

The scribes also help doctors keep track of patients as they move through the hospital, letting them know when laboratory tests have been completed or X-rays arrive.

It helps for scribes to have aggressive personalities and thick skin, especially when it comes to dealing with doctors with big egos and demanding personalities, Esquibel said.

"Part of the job is to direct the physicians and keep them organized. You have to be able to multi-task," she said.

Scribes are changing the way physicians work at Tri-City's emergency room, said Mells, the department's chairman.

"What we used to do was wait until the end of a patient's visit and try to dictate our notes from memory," he said. A clerk would then transcribe the notes, and the records wouldn't become available until a day or two later.

That system is still in place at most other hospitals.

At Tri-City, emergency room doctors are now able to treat more patients – and take more time with them – because they spend less time writing or dictating patient notes and orders. Since the information is documented by scribes immediately, errors due to faulty memory are less likely.

Scribes also can help make hospitals and doctors more profitable by recording billable procedures that might otherwise be forgotten, said Keaton of the American College of Emergency Physicians, based in Irving, Texas. "Most emergency departments do a lot more work than what they bill for."

Mells said the scribe program will save Tri-City about $2.3 million over the next five years, largely because it replaces the more costly transcription services previously used.

Dr. Richard Burruss, one of the first Tri-City physicians assigned to work with the scribes, said it's been gratifying to play the role of mentor to the students.

"They are highly motivated and very interested in learning about how medicine really works and what physicians really do for patients," he said. "You can really see them learning and growing as the program progresses."

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I've worked with them and they can be very helpful. Not only to write but also to work as a personal secretary/assistant. A few are too slow and I end up running off without them. In general I think having premeds do this job is a great idea because it benefits them and they're very motivated to do well.
 
you'd definitely have to train them to not write down that the mom described the well appearing child as "lethargic." I have a hard enough time getting 4th year med students to not necesarily write down everything the patient/parent says when they're using terms in a different way than we do.
 
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This is becoming a more popular paradigm. However, to make it work you have to have a particular set of variables such as payor mix, acuity, ancillary services, etc. For a scribe program to be viable you have to be able to increase your billing (either by better documentation or seeing more patients, usually a combination of both) and see that raise your collections. That rise in collections has to be enough to cover the cost of the scribes. Using med students is not a great thing to do financially because there will be high turnover by definition. If you're using them as a teaching/experience builder program and willing to accept the decrease in their efficiency then cool. The best scribes are usually nurses or CNAs who don't want to do clinical work for one reason or another. Good ones, ie. fast and accurate, cost money.

Bottom line: If you make enough to pay the scribe and the costs of their employment (benefits, work comp, etc.) or if you can get the hospital to pay them (good luch with that, it's not unheard of but it's a tough sell) then go for it.
 
I heard one of the groups in town here uses this. It allows them (per one of the partners to see 4-5 more patients per shift) from what i heard it is sweet. Less scut as a doc.

But as DocB said you have to have the right payor mix to make it cost effective.
 
They are used in the fast track part of our ER. The residents are discouraged from using them as interns while in the fast track but seniors can use them. It really helps you see more people and sure is convenient. Some of them go into the rooms with the attendings, others just take a verbal presentation from them. Most of the scribes are premed students... seems like an awesome resume builder.
 
I'm a scribe. :D

Most of us are part time since we attend school, so we do not get any benefits. And the pay is low. I treat it as a volunteer gig for the experience and get pleasantly surprised when I happen to get a paycheck. :laugh:

On my busiest shift, the doc and I saw 55 patients in an 8 hour shift.
I think the most benefit is seen by the patients. The doctor is able to make eye contact and listen to the patient without worrying about the documentation. The patients seem to appreciate that.

Scribes also serve as an extra set of eyes on things. I have noticed when a typical order is missing on a standard workup or when it should be a left tib/fib instead of a right tib/fib. I always ask the doc before changing or adding anything to be sure. We're all good at asking about any questionable items or spelling before documenting. We also serve as a personal secretary and help the doc be in two places at once, so to speak.

We go through on the job training which lasts about a month. We learn about HIPPA and such. We're also to not touch patients. We're very good at making sure documentation is up to code. I pretty much document everything to admission standard coding because it doesn't take that much more of my time.
There have been occasions where our documentation have helped docs in court. While we document in real time and get more of the story down on paper (or computer), the doc still needs to look it over since it is ultimately the docs responsibility. Another possible pitfall is we're interested in medicine so we ask questions, time permitting. :)

Typically we go into the room with the doc and record the HPI and ROS from the conversation between doc and patient as well as PMHx, meds, allergies, vitals, etc . Then we leave the room and the doc dictates the exam which they generally give us the findings (ex: epigastric tenderness, no guarding or rebound, tachy, otherwise nml). Once things are back, we'll write discharge instructions and the prescriptions (our system has pre-existing notes for abdominal pain, chest pain, etc so that we just add a few specific notes and print).

Some docs want to write their own orders on the chart, some will let scribes. We get used to the doc's style as to what is typically ordered and can already have down standard orders by the time we leave the room, or question when something wasn't ordered (ex: I know one particular doc likes to use CRP and know to ask about it) which helps move patients. Each doc is different and it's part of the job as a scribe to know how that particular doc wants their documentation done. With a doc I've never worked with, I have always asked if there's anything they specifically want.

We generally get as excited about discharging someone as the doc does because it's one less thing to keep up with. So, if everything is back on a patient, it will be made known very quickly. Usually the nurses haven't even collected the results off the printer by the time we have the instructions and prescriptions printed. We're also good at updating the doc on lab results (ex: if nothing but the CBC is back and high or maybe only a CXR which helps with that pneumonia and antibiotics time window).
A large part of my job is answering the doc's question of, "Now, what was I doing before so and so side tracked me?"

There's a lot of little tasks we do every day to help that go without mention. We've got a good group where I work and I can confidently say we help with patient flow. We're good at paying attention and treat them like they're our patients too.
The nurses love us nearly as much as the docs since we're reliable enough to get a message to the doc, or perhaps answer a simple question (ex:what the doc is trying to rule out on CT). So we help them as well.
 
Of the four hospitals we rotate through, two do not use scribes, one has scribes only on the fast-track side, and one has an extremely robust scribe program with scribe shifts 24/7. The fourth hospital did their own internal eval of scribes and found a marked increase in MD efficiency and billing.
 
Of the four hospitals we rotate through, two do not use scribes, one has scribes only on the fast-track side, and one has an extremely robust scribe program with scribe shifts 24/7. The fourth hospital did their own internal eval of scribes and found a marked increase in MD efficiency and billing.
I'm sure that scribe probram is working out well. Just for the sake of discussion let me point out that the hurdle is not that it increases physician effeciency and billing. It's that it increases collections enough to offset the cost of the scribes. Obviously the way to achieve that is to increase efficiency and billing so I'm not minimizing that aspect.

The scribe issue is a purely business decision. So it's important to look at the numbers. To run a 24/7 scribe program with only one scribe at a time you have to staff 168 hours a week or ~4.2 FTEs (full time equivalents). That really translates to 5 FTEs. For an entry level FTE in my neighborhood you're looking at ~$50-75K/yr. in costs. So using the FTE model you're at ~$250K/yr. If you want to look at the hourly only if you pay $10/hr that's $87,360/yr plus addl employment costs like payroll expenses, work comp, etc. More if you give any benefits. If you don't give any benefits you'll likely have to keep your scribes on part time status (usually not more than 30-35 hours per week) or you'll run into problems with the labor board. So, in order for your scribe program to be a success you have to make, at a minimum, more than $90K per year, per scribe staffed, more than your group was making before.

Note, I'm not against scribes. I'm just pointing out the business aspect of them. As you guys move into administrative roles in your groups down the line you'll be forced to pay more and more attention to this stuff.
 
While this position has been in healthcare since 1995, there are new uses, less educated staff with the CPOE conversions within hospitals. Is anyone concerned about this position being exspanded to other areas, e.g. surgery, outpatient centers, even med/surg?

Regarding cost - most hospitals do not provide Scribes - stating that if an ED doc wants someone to complete their documentaiton in the EMR - they pay for it! and you are right it is costly, but having 6-8 more patient's processed more than pays for the scribes. Just a side note. Also Scribes reduc LOC, and are better at computer entry w/ less error corrections.
 
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I'm sure that scribe probram is working out well. Just for the sake of discussion let me point out that the hurdle is not that it increases physician effeciency and billing. It's that it increases collections enough to offset the cost of the scribes. Obviously the way to achieve that is to increase efficiency and billing so I'm not minimizing that aspect.

The scribe issue is a purely business decision. So it's important to look at the numbers. To run a 24/7 scribe program with only one scribe at a time you have to staff 168 hours a week or ~4.2 FTEs (full time equivalents). That really translates to 5 FTEs. For an entry level FTE in my neighborhood you're looking at ~$50-75K/yr. in costs. So using the FTE model you're at ~$250K/yr. If you want to look at the hourly only if you pay $10/hr that's $87,360/yr plus addl employment costs like payroll expenses, work comp, etc. More if you give any benefits. If you don't give any benefits you'll likely have to keep your scribes on part time status (usually not more than 30-35 hours per week) or you'll run into problems with the labor board. So, in order for your scribe program to be a success you have to make, at a minimum, more than $90K per year, per scribe staffed, more than your group was making before.

Note, I'm not against scribes. I'm just pointing out the business aspect of them. As you guys move into administrative roles in your groups down the line you'll be forced to pay more and more attention to this stuff.

A scribe making $10/hr for a 10 hr shift is $100. If I see 4 more patients a shift because of scribes, they've paid for themselves. They are also a temporary band aid for physicians that document poorly but are not currently replaceable. During our trial period I was about 30% more efficient with a scribe, although that was also right after an extraordinarily cumbersome electronic discharge program was implemented.
 
We've had scribes for over 6 months, and I honestly don't think I (or my ED) could see our volume (101k/yr) without them.
 
We talked about it, but decided against it.....I think if we did it, we'd have to use an agency that would provide the salary and benefits to the scribe. Since we are a partnership that has NO benefits to the group members, there would be issues with providing benefits to the scribes if we hired them directly.....So, then it would cost even more for us since there would be a middle man (the scribe's agency) to pay on top of the scribe......So we nixed the idea......
 
A scribe making $10/hr for a 10 hr shift is $100. If I see 4 more patients a shift because of scribes, they've paid for themselves. They are also a temporary band aid for physicians that document poorly but are not currently replaceable. During our trial period I was about 30% more efficient with a scribe, although that was also right after an extraordinarily cumbersome electronic discharge program was implemented.

A $10/hr employee cost way more than $10/hr after you add in insurance, benefits, training, overhead, etc. I get your point but the break even on scribes is pretty murky.

For example is it better to pay them a lot and have good retention or to pay less and deal with the turn over (i.e. continual training and reliability issues)?
 
I know there is training involved, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't plenty of gunner pre-meds going to school by University Hospitals that would volunteer their time to: 1. have something for med school apps that shows interest in the field 2. Get a letter of recommendation 3. Learn something. I would have been a scribe for free in a heartbeat. Much more interesting than typical hospital-volunteer activities [would u like a magazine?] and I'd actually feel useful.
 
I know there is training involved, but I find it hard to believe that there aren't plenty of gunner pre-meds going to school by University Hospitals that would volunteer their time to: 1. have something for med school apps that shows interest in the field 2. Get a letter of recommendation 3. Learn something. I would have been a scribe for free in a heartbeat. Much more interesting than typical hospital-volunteer activities [would u like a magazine?] and I'd actually feel useful.

Most of our scribes are pre med or pre-PA school. We're always telling them that yeah, they get paid some money to do it (between 8-10 bucks an hour from what I know), but the first hand experience of going 1 on 1 with an attending learning how to do an H/P and document will go farther than the beer money that they're making ever will.
 
we have them and maybe 1/2 of the providers use them. it does not, in fact, increase their productivity, it gives them the ability to see the same # of pts and play on the internet more and b.s. with their partners. the scribes also make more errors/omissions than the providers and those errors are then the responsibility of the provider who signed the chart. I will never use a scribe as my documentation is much better than theirs. scribes are a concession to laziness. and this laziness is subsidized by the hospital to allow the providers who use one to goof off.....
 
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Most of our scribes are pre med or pre-PA school. We're always telling them that yeah, they get paid some money to do it (between 8-10 bucks an hour from what I know), but the first hand experience of going 1 on 1 with an attending learning how to do an H/P and document will go farther than the beer money that they're making ever will.
FWIW ( and I say this as an adcom member)- most pa schools do not count scribe as health care experience but as "health related experience", much like community service. sure it's "exposure" but scribes make no decisions that effect pt care. they are basically mobile transcriptionists. far less valuable than the same amt of time spent as a nurse, medic, or r.t.
 
I wonder how beneficial scribe experience actually is for learning how to perform a good H&P. If one started out MS3 doing ED Attending style H&P's, he or she would probably fail a Family Medicine clerkship.
 
I was an ED scribe while in undergrad and am now a soon to be EM resident. I found the exposure incredibly useful. Just being exposed to medical terminology for the 2 years I worked made the transition into clinical years much smoother. I took the job very seriously though and was blessed to work with docs that liked to teach even when I didn't know much medicine at all.
 
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