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IndianaOD

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Got my little slap on the wrist. Come on, seriously? From posting facts oven on the OMD forum. They need a nanny to watch over and care for them over there.

The ODs on here should demand the the misleading and untrue stickies be removed on the OMD forum.

Either that or an OD comparison of the professions should be posted.

They close threads over there if anyone isn't saying OMDs are the best thing ever. Lets keep it real people.
 

IndianaOD

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I may cut back on SDN since its a total MD PR machine. All of you that have PM'd me for help and for all the thank you's can thank the nannies for this.

Edit: I'm really going to cut back because I'm getting too busy. Just felt like complaining!!!
 
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qwopty99

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I've completely stopped posting anything of substance in the OD/OMD fight threads. I have completely resorted to making every one of my posts personal and intended to elicit insult in the (OMD) reader. I've decided to do this because in the past I've posted umpteen what I consider eminently reasonable "fair" and basically "unpartisan" posts, only to be met with unbridled ferocity and contempt.

It's a joke though. These folks read my articles in their ophthalmology journals. If we all had to do it again, I'd be more competitive for ophthalmology residency than they would be. But I like being an optometrist. They just don't seem to get that.

So my participation in such threads isn't about the ideas anymore - it's about getting those arrogant MDs riled up. None of this matters in the big scheme of things - if they want to be arrogant and bitter with their lives because of contempt of us, then I'll be happy to oblige.

It's really something to consider: they have so much to be happy about with life - but they choose just to be angry. You really can't help them.

I've also come to a new understanding about our resident "pit-bulls" - namely the Oculomotors and such. Though I certainly don't always agree with his tactics, I think every legislative lobby requires partisan attack dogs that serve as a call-to-arms for the base. I think Oculo serves that purpose very well - and he'll get better (I notice his posts have gotten more precise and more argument-oriented, which is very good). It's that kinda unrestrained energy that is present in young folks, that'll eventually get refined and become very effective in the real political battles in later life. Heck - it was a recognition that I was the young pit-bull in that legislative experience I had a few weeks back (I posted about it here briefly) that I realized the importance of the role. So Oculo - I'm off your back now.

Anyhoos - yeah - I'm done with trying to reason with the OMDs who post here.
 
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eyestrain

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I just finished reading some the posts on the ophthalmology forum. What exactly are you guys hoping to accomplish? Just stirring up sh!t for the hell of it? Good Lord. It's embarrassing.
 

gochi

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no disrespect indy, but thats weak. you are probably making legitimate arguments in your threads and posts, and thats probably why they are getting closed/locked.

why not just increase your post count or talk to the forum admin? you could potentially get moderating privileges which will allow you to sustain a heated topic that would have rather been locked.
 

IndianaOD

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no disrespect indy, but thats weak. you are probably making legitimate arguments in your threads and posts, and thats probably why they are getting closed/locked.

why not just increase your post count or talk to the forum admin? you could potentially get moderating privileges which will allow you to sustain a heated topic that would have rather been locked.

Seriously though, how do we get something stickied? I would like to write up a comparison of the 3 O's from our point of view. Not some political BS from the MD community.

Many make 4x what an OD does and they still cry. I still haven't figured out how med school makes you a good eye doctor and I haven't heard a good reason for it yet.
 

qwopty99

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Good luck to you and remember you are not the only one committed to patient education. Most of us are also very proactive in terms of patient education regarding competency and level of training.:)

This was posted in the other thread but is worth commenting on.


I don't think its routine for most health practitioners to outline all their educational history as part of their patient care. I mean, what does it say about the person who feels they need to tell each of their patients that they graduated with such and such a degree, had XYZ years of training, and are concerned about the ability of a similar profession to encroach on what they view is their turf?


But hey - if some folks feel its important to involve patients in all this laundry, I guess it's their prerogative.
 

eyestrain

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Why, why, why?!!?!?! Please tell me that's not your signature, qwopty99. Do you guys think you're really going to gain any respect from the OMD crowd with this little crusade? Bickering about the amount of schooling? God, it's like a kindergarten playground argument.
 

gochi

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Seriously though, how do we get something stickied? I would like to write up a comparison of the 3 O's from our point of view. Not some political BS from the MD community.

Many make 4x what an OD does and they still cry. I still haven't figured out how med school makes you a good eye doctor and I haven't heard a good reason for it yet.

Moderating rights most likely. You gotta talk to an admin for those rights. BTW, i think prettygreeneyes has those privelages.
 

gochi

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Why, why, why?!!?!?! Please tell me that's not your signature, qwopty99. Do you guys think you're really going to gain any respect from the OMD crowd with this little crusade? Bickering about the amount of schooling? God, it's like a kindergarten playground argument.

I found it quite funny.
 

hello07

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Indiana OD,
I respect our profession and enjoy practicing Optometry as much as you or any other OD. However, let's be fair. I read in the OMD post that "optometrist, you say are better qualified to treat glaucoma than MD's are" referring to primary care versus surgical arena.
Common, OD's perhaps some/ few/ minoruty can treat glaucoma as well or better than MD's BUt not what you said.

You sound absurd. I'm sorry.
 

IndianaOD

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Indiana OD,
I respect our profession and enjoy practicing Optometry as much as you or any other OD. However, let's be fair. I read in the OMD post that "optometrist, you say are better qualified to treat glaucoma than MD's are" referring to primary care versus surgical arena.
Common, OD's perhaps some/ few/ minoruty can treat glaucoma as well or better than MD's BUt not what you said.

You sound absurd. I'm sorry.


I didn't say better. I said more than qualified.
 

SarahNC

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I've never posted over there for the following reason:

"ever think of getting optometry banned altogether? how strong a lobby is the Academy of Ophtho, anyway?"

"Its amazing that the extremely bright medical school graduates that go into ophtho are now on par with optometrists - some (not all) of whom went that route b/c they couldnt get into medical school."

"Opthalmologists DESPERATELY need data showing that optometry care is inferior and increases patient risk."

"optometry schools have the same number of applicants as slots"

"Tons of people who start out as pre-med in college get weeded out before the application process even begins. The same thing doesn't happen with optometry."

"Maybe med students are a bit more serious about what they do than optometry students, as a group."

"If optometrists would stick to what they're good at, and leave medicine to the MDs, I wouldn't be writing this post."

"they should KNOW THEIR ROLE and be grateful MDs were gracious enough to give them one."

"any sort of clinical management training is virtually absent in optometry. I am amazed they are allowed to prescribe drops, dumbfounded they are allowed prescribe oral medication"

"They are preying on the ignorance of the public. If you call yourself "doctor," most people assume you are a physician. As I take call in our ER, probably 80% of folks who come in have no idea that an optometrist is not a physician, and appear dumbfounded and mislead that the OD they were seeing called him/herself doctor."

"20 years from now the OD's will be whittiling away their diminishing days working at Wal-Mart and fighting their own battles to stay in business."

“Optometrists want to become ophthalmologists.”

“I have an idea. We close down all optometry schools and simply allow ophthalmologists to provide complete eye care. Problem solved.”

“just go to med school and have all the hardships that REAL physicians go through”


There is no point arguing with people who think this way of our profession. If we want to change it, we need to educate others and prove ourselves. I, personally am not going to feed the fire and allow myself and my profession to be degraded by MDs who do not know any better and have been taught their degree makes them the almighty.
 
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I don't have a dog in the OD/OMD battle. I'm neutral. So please allow me to clarify what the SDN guidelines are for this sort of issue.

Here in the Optometry forum, say what you want about Ophthalmology as a profession or about Ophthalmologists in general. Do not violate the TOS with abusive language, excessive profanity, or personal attacks and nothing will happen to your or your post.

Likewise, the MDs and MD/DO students in the Ophthalmology forums are allowed to be critical of Optometry or Optometrists in general. They get the same consideration on their turf as you guys get on yours.

Optometrists, optometry students, or pre-opt students who go into the Ophthalmology forum to fight, argue, diss OMDs or otherwise stir up trouble may face discipline from forum moderators if their post violates the TOS.

Likewise Ophthalmology forum posters who come to the OD forum to fight, argue, diss ODs or otherwise stir up trouble will also face disciplinary action.

Here is the relevant section [bolded] of the TOS:

TOS said:
Harassment and Flaming
The Student Doctor Network members are not permitted to harass or “flame” other members. Please do not post or transmit any unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, profane, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable material of any kind, including, but not limited to, any material which encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, violate the rights of others, or otherwise violate any applicable local, state, national or international law. Please note that this also includes the posting of taunts on a forum solely for the purpose of deriding that forum’s topic and/or members.

As an admin I support your right to express yourselves on your home forum. I have to extend the same courtesy to the Ophthalmology forum regulars.

If someone wants to propose a sticky for this forum they can do so by PMing a forum mod (cpw or prettygreeneyes). If they aren't available, please let me know and I'll look into helping out.

Please PM me if you have any questions about this. I am here to help. :)
 

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Why do you care what they think of you? Do you really think that aspect of that forum changes people's minds about optometry?

Every aspect of medicine talks crap about almost every other aspect. Surgeons and internists, surgeons and anesthesia, you guys and primary care, its just how things are. We're all adults here, its not hard to just ignore what the ophtho folks say about you.
 

SarahNC

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No, I don't particularly mind that they demean our profession, but they also can and do instill that mindset on our patients and the general public. They tell patients they are superior in every way and Optometrists are just med school drop outs who aren't good for anything. Thats not just degrading, that affects our practices and well-being. Seeing an Optometrist will cause your eyeballs to fall out and you will probably die. (I HAVE SEEN OMDS SAY SUCH)
 

VA Hopeful Dr

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No, I don't particularly mind that they demean our profession, but they also can and do instill that mindset on our patients and the general public. They tell patients they are superior in every way and Optometrists are just med school drop outs who aren't good for anything. Thats not just degrading, that affects our practices and well-being. Seeing an Optometrist will cause your eyeballs to fall out and you will probably die. (I HAVE SEEN OMDS SAY SUCH)

When you find out which MDs say that, don't send them any more patients. Assuming your local MDs like to do surgery then you have the upper hand. In my hometown, 99% of the MDs are very OD unfriendly. There is 1 guy who works well with the ODs. Guess who does surgery 2-3 days a week and guess who does 2-3 cases per week.

Its the same reason specialists are nice to primary care folks in the private world.
 

eyestrain

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Why do you care what they think of you? Do you really think that aspect of that forum changes people's minds about optometry?

Every aspect of medicine talks crap about almost every other aspect. Surgeons and internists, surgeons and anesthesia, you guys and primary care, its just how things are. We're all adults here, its not hard to just ignore what the ophtho folks say about you.

Exactly. I don't understand why so many of us can't figure this out.
 

blysssful

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This was posted on a Facebook optometry group by Dr. Munroe from SCCO, but I thought it was a nice little contribution to this whole fight.

It's a blog excerpt from a health & beauty "expert":
"Finding the Correct Eye Specialist:"
"For total eye care, seek out the advice of an ophthalmologist. An ophthalmologist is a medical doctor with at least four years of specialized training in the diagnosis and treatment of eye diseases and conditions. Ophthalmologists can prescribe corrective lenses, conduct eye examinations, treat diseases, and perform surgery on the eyes. Some ophthalmologists further specialize within the field of ophthalmology, becoming experts in problems of the retina or cornea or concentrating on children's eye problems or specific areas of surgery, such as surgery for cataracts.

Optometrists are not medical doctors, but are graduates of a school of optometry and earn a doctor of optometry (O.D.) degree. They are trained to test the eyes for nonmedical defects of vision and prescribe and dispense corrective lenses. Optometrists can also diagnose diseases of the eye, but an ophthalmologist will be able to evaluate more thoroughly ophthalmic signs of systemic disease."

here is the link

The root of the problem isn't whether ophthalmologists like optometrists, or vise versa. The problem is that even though optometrists ARE qualified eye care specialists, that "MD" behind ophthalmologists' names gives them the trump card in the eyes of too many people. Instead of getting angry, optometrists should work towards positive advocacy of what they CAN do.
 
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SarahNC

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Haha, Oh my god, we only have 8 years of education beyond high school... We should be happy to get jobs at McDonalds! And limited exposure to patients with eye disorders or disease....Our thousands of hours aren't comparable to their thousands of hours. The fact that the AAO published that just leaves me shaking my head. (Although, I guess you have to fib a little to get people into Ophthalmology, when they could have taken a more efficient path and been a much cooler and smarter Optometrist) I kid, I kid.:laugh:
 

KHE

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I may cut back on SDN since its a total MD PR machine. All of you that have PM'd me for help and for all the thank you's can thank the nannies for this.

That would probably be best for everyone on here because sadly, you rarely contribute anything of any real value on here. 99% of your (and Oculomotor's) postings amount to little more than backhanded attempts to "stir up the pot."

In the past couple of weeks, this forum (and the ophthalmology one) has degenerated to a point far worse than anything I have seen in the few years I have participated in this forum. As always, the "usual suspects" are front and center, stirring up the pot with longwinded postings almost universally containing sad, feeble snippits (usually in bold font) centering around:

1) "I have many friends who are MDs."
2) "I took the MCATs."
3) "I did well in high school. My high school GPA is probably higher than yours"
4) "I could have gone to medical school if I wanted."
5) "Ophthalmologists only study the eye for three years"
6) "Medical school is irrelevant to the practice of eye care."
7) "Primary eye doctor" (whatever the f*** that is)
8) "PCPs use sulfacetamide"
9) "I took physiology with some dental students."
10) "LASIK isn't really surgery."

Needless to say, I could go on and on and on but I would almost certainly just end up :barf:

The saddest (and funniest) part of tall these feeble arguments is that they are almost universally between optometry students or pre-optometry students and medical students or ophthalmology residents. Well, guess what... 99% of those people really don't know schitt from shin-ola about the training the other side goes through, or what it is actually like out in practice in the world beyond the protective halls of academia.

I know....I know....you have lots of friends or family members who are MDs. Big deal.

The response will almost certainly be "I'm really passionate about optometry and screw those ophthalmologists" or "I have received hundreds of PMs from people who just think I'm the greatest guy." Again.....:barf:
 
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qwopty99

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Why, why, why?!!?!?! Please tell me that's not your signature, qwopty99. Do you guys think you're really going to gain any respect from the OMD crowd with this little crusade? Bickering about the amount of schooling? God, it's like a kindergarten playground argument.

Do you think I'm here cause I'm trying to obtain respect from OMDs? They're all bitter and angry people - why should I care about what they think?

Hey - it was the OMD who posted that they educate their patients on their educational histories, not me. My signature is a satire of what they claim they do.

And yes, my signature:
 
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IndianaOD

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That would probably be best for everyone on here because sadly, you rarely contribute anything of any real value on here. 99% of your (and Oculomotor's) postings amount to little more than backhanded attempts to "stir up the pot."

In the past couple of weeks, this forum (and the ophthalmology one) has degenerated to a point far worse than anything I have seen in the few years I have participated in this forum. As always, the "usual suspects" are front and center, stirring up the pot with longwinded postings almost universally containing sad, feeble snippits (usually in bold font) centering around:

1) "I have many friends who are MDs."
2) "I took the MCATs."
3) "I did well in high school. My high school GPA is probably higher than yours"
4) "I could have gone to medical school if I wanted."
5) "Ophthalmologists only study the eye for three years"
6) "Medical school is irrelevant to the practice of eye care."
7) "Primary eye doctor" (whatever the f*** that is)
8) "PCPs use sulfacetamide"
9) "I took physiology with some dental students."
10) "LASIK isn't really surgery."

Needless to say, I could go on and on and on but I would almost certainly just end up :barf:

The saddest (and funniest) part of tall these feeble arguments is that they are almost universally between optometry students or pre-optometry students and medical students or ophthalmology residents. Well, guess what... 99% of those people really don't know schitt from shin-ola about the training the other side goes through, or what it is actually like out in practice in the world beyond the protective halls of academia.

I know....I know....you have lots of friends or family members who are MDs. Big deal.

The response will almost certainly be "I'm really passionate about optometry and screw those ophthalmologists" or "I have received hundreds of PMs from people who just think I'm the greatest guy." Again.....:barf:

Ken, you've turned into a weak sapling. When you first came on here you asked me to support your pro optometry statements. Now that you have a better work environment it has totally changed.

Sorry, but if you like the MD BS then fine. Some of us like screwing with them and dealing with the facts.

I don't contribute? I have 173 PMs in my SDN mailbox.
 

IndianaOD

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I hope that was sarcasm (reread KHE's last sentence.)

it was


1) "I have many friends who are MDs." YUP -- all of them had lower undergrad GPA than I did. Its hard being a genius:hardy:
2) "I took the MCATs." Nope, had no reason to
3) "I did well in high school. My high school GPA is probably higher than yours" Probably true :thumbup:
4) "I could have gone to medical school if I wanted." True for almost all OD students
5) "Ophthalmologists only study the eye for three years" TRUE
6) "Medical school is irrelevant to the practice of eye care." You are catching on
7) "Primary eye doctor" (whatever the f*** that is) That's what ODs are called, I never coined the term
8) "PCPs use sulfacetamide" More gentamycin and usually on viral infections
9) "I took physiology with some dental students." NOPE, was taught by PhD and MD
10) "LASIK isn't really surgery." Hmm, well it is in a way but the equipment does all the work now. I'm not a fan of the procedure anyways.
 
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i've never posted over there for the following reason:




There is no point arguing with people who think this way of our profession. If we want to change it, we need to educate others and prove ourselves. I, personally am not going to feed the fire and allow myself and my profession to be degraded by mds who do not know any better and have been taught their degree makes them the almighty.

agreed
 

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I always find it pretty amusing when someone posts the first reply to their own thread.


Some people actually are busy seeing patients and only pop on for a few seconds at a time.
 

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When you find out which MDs say that, don't send them any more patients. Assuming your local MDs like to do surgery then you have the upper hand. In my hometown, 99% of the MDs are very OD unfriendly. There is 1 guy who works well with the ODs. Guess who does surgery 2-3 days a week and guess who does 2-3 cases per week.

Its the same reason specialists are nice to primary care folks in the private world.

exactly! I have a local OMD who's very OD friendly. When he's not in his local office, his staff sends me all his red eyes, I send him my surgeries and he promptly refers them back for co-management. If your OMD isn't doing this... FIND A NEW ONE !!

Arguing with OMD students on a message board does nothing to up your "professionalism" or change their mind.
 

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Some people actually are busy seeing patients and only pop on for a few seconds at a time.
Oh I see, well next perhaps explain how that has anything at all to do with replying to your own thread three minutes after you posted it? If anything you just indicted yourself by indicating you do in fact have time to post a thread then sit around and wait three minutes to post a reply. It gave me a chuckle anyway, so thanks for that.
 
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Ken, you've turned into a weak sapling. When you first came on here you asked me to support your pro optometry statements. Now that you have a better work environment it has totally changed.

1) I don't recall asking you for anything.

2) My "better work environment" is precisely why I continue to post on here. If I can make it, anyone can.

Sorry, but if you like the MD BS then fine.

I don't like it any more than you do. But I recognize it for what it is....the ignorant rantings of a few people who really don't know any better. So I just ignore it. You're not going to change their minds. Getting into it with them is like getting into it with the rambling homeless guys in Times Square who carry on endlessly about the end of the world being near.

Some of us like screwing with them and dealing with the facts.

"Screwing with them" gets you absolutely nowhere. If you want to present facts (or at least the facts as you see them) then fine but you can do it in a way that makes you (and the profession) come off as a reasonable and levelheaded instead of the arrogant jackass you're making yourself out to be.

You can take the high road, or you can take the low road. It might be a little bit more titillating and fun for you to take the low road but getting into the mud with people who don't know any better is actually causing your credibility and your profession more harm than good. You may like to "screw with them" but I would bet a bunch of money that a lot of them are just "screwing with you." Foolishly, you continue to take the bait and do your best to try to bait them in return. In the end, it accomplishes less than nothing. Since you have been out of school for a few years, I would expect that you would be able to realize that.

I don't contribute? I have 173 PMs in my SDN mailbox.

Oh I never said you don't contribute. You contribute a lot. It's just not of any real value. That's the problem. Think about it....you're smart enough to know better.
 

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1) I don't recall asking you for anything.

2) My "better work environment" is precisely why I continue to post on here. If I can make it, anyone can.



I don't like it any more than you do. But I recognize it for what it is....the ignorant rantings of a few people who really don't know any better. So I just ignore it. You're not going to change their minds. Getting into it with them is like getting into it with the rambling homeless guys in Times Square who carry on endlessly about the end of the world being near.



"Screwing with them" gets you absolutely nowhere. If you want to present facts (or at least the facts as you see them) then fine but you can do it in a way that makes you (and the profession) come off as a reasonable and levelheaded instead of the arrogant jackass you're making yourself out to be.

You can take the high road, or you can take the low road. It might be a little bit more titillating and fun for you to take the low road but getting into the mud with people who don't know any better is actually causing your credibility and your profession more harm than good. You may like to "screw with them" but I would bet a bunch of money that a lot of them are just "screwing with you." Foolishly, you continue to take the bait and do your best to try to bait them in return. In the end, it accomplishes less than nothing. Since you have been out of school for a few years, I would expect that you would be able to realize that.



Oh I never said you don't contribute. You contribute a lot. It's just not of any real value. That's the problem. Think about it....you're smart enough to know better.

You should donate to be a life-member then you can be on your THIRD row!
 

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Optometry is inferior to ophthalmology and that is coming from someone who does find optometry interesting and have seen their work in detail at least in retail practices.

Look at it that way. Ophthalmologists have a job outside the US, if they have to leave US, but optometrists don't really have a job outside US / canada or maybe australia / phillipines do they?
 

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I think it is sorrowful and pitiful that non-optometric students, graduates and etc have nothing better to do than to troll this forum. YES, TROLL!. They offer no positive feed back, no positive posting, nothing informative and bait the regular members with inflammatory and irrelevant rhetoric mostly in retorts. I'm waiting to see whether these trolls ever START a thread. That is evidence of their lack of integrity.

I think if you trollers want to come here, they ought to offer a positive post for every inane post.

One thing that should stir up sub forum folks here. Why is it that non-optometrists and non-optometric students have so much perceived moral authority to preach righteousness over optometry. God knows that the health care system from education to delivery of health care is in need of fixing. Optometry expenditures are a mere $1 BN compared to the many other Billions spent elsewhere. God knows what kind of money is being spent to buy off professional opinions. That hasn't quite happened in optometry. FIX YOUR OWN HOUSES FIRST.
 

IndianaOD

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Optometry is inferior to ophthalmology and that is coming from someone who does find optometry interesting and have seen their work in detail at least in retail practices.

Look at it that way. Ophthalmologists have a job outside the US, if they have to leave US, but optometrists don't really have a job outside US / canada or maybe australia / phillipines do they?


I'm sure you'll get a warning for that ridiculous comment. If your only experience with Optometry is from some spin and grin retail job then you are truly ignorant about the profession.

I doubt you really know anything about the two professions.
 

panzer

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So ophthals work under optometrists right? :oops:

As far as optometry is concernend, you have older people like Khe who say that they wouldn't recommend optometry to new students and the warnings are coming from people who are of the profession not some random joe the plumber or bill the electrician..

If it is hurting your ego since you are of the profession then what can I say? If you were a hot chick i might offer you a *hug* and a shoulder to cry on but since that is not the case then.... :sleep: :D
 

eyestrain

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This whole goddamn forum is being overrun by douchebags. How can seemingly intelligent people turn into such petulant little children? Seriously. Do we have nothing better to do that snipe at each other over this tired old OD vs MD nonsense. Christ, this is lame.
 

blysssful

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This whole goddamn forum is being overrun by douchebags. How can seemingly intelligent people turn into such petulant little children? Seriously. Do we have nothing better to do that snipe at each other over this tired old OD vs MD nonsense. Christ, this is lame.

Maybe there's nothing good on tv?

I don't understand why certain people aren't getting banned for trolling when it's VERY clear that is what is going on.
 

IndianaOD

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So ophthals work under optometrists right? :oops:


Yes they do in many practices. Even more work under MBAs so what is the point?

Three OMDs work for a large OD practice within an hour of me.
 

cpw

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okay, I'm sick of this. I've gotten ten reported posts about this thread in two days.

If y'all can't behave like grown ups and have a civilized conversation...
 
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