SDN Myths

[notdeadyet]

---

Members do not see this ad.

There are many doctors who are URM but do not need that edge (of AA), and many even find it offensive that they are offered a lot more opportunities merely based on the color of their skin, rather than all their hard work and brains. And so would I. That is why I am against AA, because as long as it is here, others will think that I had benefitted from it unfairly and that there were better fish in the sea.

I definitely understand this sentiment. If someone is against affirmative action, don't use it. This is why you don't have to select the box identifying your status on applications. As for others judging based on it, that's their business.

My sister got pregnant in high school. She met lots of people who just assumed that she was on welfare, which she wasn't and disagreed with. Since she disagreed with the notion of teen moms on welfare, she didn't take it. But she didn't try to have it abolished for those reasons.

If you're an African American on a college campus, lots of racists will assume you got there due to affirmative action. Before affirmative action (and after and during) folks will assume that the African American males are there on athletic scholarship. These are not problems with programs, they are problems with the small minds of the observers.

 

[jocg27]

Looking over mdapplicants, there were 8 listings for folks who got accepted to UCSF as OOSers this past cycle. 7 were non-URMs.

The one URM that was accepted OOS had a worse MCAT than you (still, a 33 ain't bad) and a slightly better GPA. She went to Harvard.

So using that as a spot test, it doesn't sound like too many URMs snuck in under the radar at UCSF to steal your spot, just 7 non-URMs and 1 URM that did it fair and square. If you don't get in, take it like a man.

👍

myth -- a URM admitted to medical school is mediocre, has been given the spot because he is a URM, and has taken Geno's seat in the class.

 

[drsax]

ye, we'va all got privilages.

I got the privilage to open a list of REU's and scholarships and throw out half of them right away because I'm a white male.

I'v got the privilage to have my grandfathers entire family dead because of his religion, to force my parents to flea a country with 2 small children for the same reason, only to be told to my face that I will never understand what racism is because i'm white.

I'v had the privilage to live with 5 other family members in a 1 bedroom apartment because, lets face it: when you flea a country, you cant exactly take all your stuff with you.

I'v got the privilage to have my dad held from getting a promotion because his company needed to promote one more URM.

I worked hard in high school to get to Cornell. I worked hard in college to maintain my GPA, and I worked very hard in college to get my MCAT score to what it is. I didn't take any prep classes, I pay instate tuition, and I'm on work study. Also, not only have I volunteered to tutor underprivilaged minorities, I specifically mentioned in many secondaries that I will continue to do so in med school.

So forgive me if I get angry when I see URM's getting accepted to schools I dont get into with stats lower than mine under the bullshyt assumption that i'm "privilaged", or "I am less likely to give back to underprivilaged communities"

Okay with what you just said, you just proved the "not so" myth about how some...I did say some...people feel towards URMs. You feel that your "deserved" spots are being taken by less deserving URM's. I have personally seen just as many "privilaged" kids get in with lower stats than some minorities I know and vice versa. It really does go both ways. Maybe it's hard as a majority to understand that as an URM to feel like you are competeting for maybe 10 spots in a class...and once they meet their "quota" that is it.

And about the bolded statement...Sorry, but sounds alittle like Matt Dylan's character in the movie "Crash" 😉 . But seriously who wouldn't be upset to loose out on a promotion...but sounds like you think the URM was just less deserving. This is the whole point. Whether applying for a job or trying to get into medical school...Why does the fact that the person who got in is an URM rub so many the wrong way? Would it make it any easier if the person who took "your" spot were white?

 

[notdeadyet]

Why does the fact that the person who got in is an URM rub so many the wrong way? Would it make it any easier if the person who took "your" spot were white?

Good point. The whole ownership of spaces I find very interesting. Especially in something as esoteric as medical school admissions.

You will find that people with lower GPAs and lower MCATs will get acceptances and you will not. They will not all be URMs. What makes the best applicant for medical school is going to be determined by the medical school, not by you and not by your criteria.

The one universal amongst medical schools is that they tell premeds that they judge the whole application, not just a series of scores. Yet the first thing folks do when they do not get admitted is try to find out who was admitted with lower scores, therefore taking their spot. It's sad.

 

[geno2568]

👍

myth -- a URM admitted to medical school is mediocre, has been given the spot because he is a URM, and has taken Geno's seat in the class.

so how many times will I have to post on these forums that I'm not saying that URM's are taking my spots?

 

[dopaminesurge]

I definitely understand this sentiment. If someone is against affirmative action, don't use it. This is why you don't have to select the box identifying your status on applications. As for others judging based on it, that's their business.

My sister got pregnant in high school. She met lots of people who just assumed that she was on welfare, which she wasn't and disagreed with. Since she disagreed with the notion of teen moms on welfare, she didn't take it. But she didn't try to have it abolished for those reasons.

If you're an African American on a college campus, lots of racists will assume you got there due to affirmative action. Before affirmative action (and after and during) folks will assume that the African American males are there on athletic scholarship. These are not problems with programs, they are problems with the small minds of the observers.

I'm going to unfortunately disagree with you. It's also a problem with the program. When I'm sitting in class, wondering if the kid next to me is there because he deserves to be , it's a problem with the system. If I disagree with the doctrine of the practiced system, it doesn't automatically follow that I'm racist. Considering it's TRUE that certain minorities are admitted despite shortcomings, it's naive not to question your peers. And that, in my opinion, is the worst part of affirmative action - I hate more than anything having to wonder if my lab partner is qualified to be there, or given a leg up because he came from a family of hispanic decent.

 

[notdeadyet]

so how many times will I have to post on these forums that I'm not saying that URM's are taking my spots?

In fairness to Geno, although he said....

So forgive me if I get angry when I see URM's getting accepted to schools I dont get into with stats lower than mine...

...he did not specifically say that they were taking "his" spot. In fact, he made subsequent posts stating that they were not taking his post.

What I don't understand, though, is that if you don't feel that you have a spot for someone to take, what difference does it make who is admitted?

I can have a 4.0 GPA/40 MCAT and get denied by a medical school whose entering class is 100 droolers who count by stomping their feet. If the spot was not "mine", then why would I get upset about it? I didn't have research experience, I wasn't charming, I didn't seem sincere, they didn't like my personality. In short, I just wasn't what they were looking for, case closed.

 

[drsax]

I'm going to unfortunately disagree with you. It's also a problem with the program. When I'm sitting in class, wondering if the kid next to me is there because he deserves to be , it's a problem with the system. If I disagree with the doctrine of the practiced system, it doesn't automatically follow that I'm racist. Considering it's TRUE that certain minorities are admitted despite shortcomings, it's naive not to question your peers. And that, in my opinion, is the worst part of affirmative action - I hate more than anything having to wonder if my lab partner is qualified to be there, or given a leg up because he came from a family of hispanic decent.

Why are you worried about the kid next to you in lab class anyways or whether they deserve to be there or not? That is what the admissions committee is for. Like someone stated, we can make ourselves sick with wondering why things happen for another person and not us. I will focus on my own actions and if someone is not performing like they should, it will come out in tests, etc. Hey and at the most...if a student can't pass their license exams then they can't practice anyways.

 

[jocg27]

You're right, that wasn't especially fair, and I apologize...

But I do hear people hinting at that idea plenty.

so how many times will I have to post on these forums that I'm not saying that URM's are taking my spots

 

[geno2568]

Okay with what you just said, you just proved the "not so" myth about how some...I did say some...people feel towards URMs. You feel that your "deserved" spots are being taken by less deserving URM's. I have personally seen just as many "privilaged" kids get in with lower stats than some minorities I know and vice versa. It really does go both ways. Maybe it's hard as a majority to understand that as an URM to feel like you are competeting for maybe 10 spots in a class...and once they meet their "quota" that is it.

And about the bolded statement...Sorry, but sounds alittle like Matt Dylan's character in the movie "Crash" 😉 . But seriously who wouldn't be upset to loose out on a promotion...but sounds like you think the URM was just less deserving. This is the whole point. Whether applying for a job or trying to get into medical school...Why does the fact that the person who got in is an URM rub so many the wrong way? Would it make it any easier if the person who took "your" spot were white?

In response to your priviliaged kids comment, ye..thats not fair as well, but its something we can all agree on, so why bring it up.

In my dad's particular case, the URM was less deserving- my dad has to correct her mistakes on a daily basis.

But the whole point of my post wasn't to complain about my situation or bitch about URM's taking my spots. I'm just saying that we are all (or at least, a lot of us) shyt out of luck at times....i'm just using personal situations as examples.

 

[notdeadyet]

When I'm sitting in class, wondering if the kid next to me is there because he deserves to be , it's a problem with the system.

If you ask a really dumb question in class, I'll wonder that about you. Is this a problem with the system? You may very well disagree with who is admitted to the school, but to judge who "deserves" to be there smacks of... well, nothing good.

If I disagree with the doctrine of the practiced system, it doesn't automatically follow that I'm racist.

No. Disagreeing with a system does not make you a racist. But if someone assumes that everyone in a classroom is there solely because of a system, that does make a racist.

Considering it's TRUE that certain minorities are admitted despite shortcomings, it's naive not to question your peers.

Why is it naive? Why would you question your peers? What business of it is your and what does it matter?

And that, in my opinion, is the worst part of affirmative action - I hate more than anything having to wonder if my lab partner is qualified to be there, or given a leg up because he came from a family of hispanic decent.

If you hated it so much, you wouldn't. How your fellow medical student got into medical school (high GPA, high MCAT, great community service, any criteria) really doesn't matter to your medical school experience.

I find it very interesting that people become very serious and feel just plain self-tortured about how they hate to have to wonder how the applicant next to them got there. You don't.

How come these feelings jump up when applying to medical school? How come none of these people write about how they were constantly questioning how the college athelete got a spot in undergrad? Because someone is $hit hot at carrying a football doesn't make them a chemist, but there's not so much outrage there.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens are different speicies, not sub-species.

I didn't say we "did" diverge enough to be different sub-species. I said we were moving that direction but didn't quite get there due to the relatively short amount of time (about 10k yrs) before homo sapiens sapiens started crossbreeding again (I recognized this convergence--it would be "stupid" not to 🙂 ).

As far as morphology is concerned, refer back to my previus posts with the Eclectus parrot example. Morphologically there is less difference amongst the different sub-species of eclectus than there is between human races.

Stop trying to impress us with your Bio 101 knowledge....we all took that class already 😉

 

[notdeadyet]

Stop trying to impress us with your Bio 101 knowledge....we all took that class already 😉

Aaaaaaaaaamen. Remember that scene where Matt Damon takes the Harvard guy to task in the bar for trying to impress folks by regurgitating stuff he'd learned in that semester's classes?

 

[Kuba]

SDN Myth: it is cool to argue AA

 

[CTtarheel]

only problem i have with AA is that it doesn't help the people who are really disadvantaged. It doesn't help the black kid from the ghetto, but the black kid i went to school with in the suburbs, whose family is way richer than mine.

 

[Haemulon]

Haemulon <------ embarrassed for getting sucked into discussing basic bio 😳

Troll bate just tastes so yummy. 😀

 

[dopaminesurge]

If you ask a really dumb question in class, I'll wonder that about you. Is this a problem with the system? You may very well disagree with who is admitted to the school, but to judge who "deserves" to be there smacks of... well, nothing good.

No. Disagreeing with a system does not make you a racist. But if someone assumes that everyone in a classroom is there solely because of a system, that does make a racist.

Why is it naive? Why would you question your peers? What business of it is your and what does it matter?

If you hated it so much, you wouldn't. How your fellow medical student got into medical school (high GPA, high MCAT, great community service, any criteria) really doesn't matter to your medical school experience.

I find it very interesting that people become very serious and feel just plain self-tortured about how they hate to have to wonder how the applicant next to them got there. You don't.

How come these feelings jump up when applying to medical school? How come none of these people write about how they were constantly questioning how the college athelete got a spot in undergrad? Because someone is $hit hot at carrying a football doesn't make them a chemist, but there's not so much outrage there.

To you and to Dr. Sax - I'm not really talking about the medical application process, and I don't think anyone will be taking my spot, so we don't have to talk specifics like the differences (that do exist) between AA and sports scholarships - let's keep it conceptual.

And yes, I do think it's naive not to wonder if someone who isn't as intelligent or qualified as the rest of the class exists within it for unjustified reasons, provided that you know that those cases ARE out there. Why does it matter to me? Hell, I'll just do better on curved tests, right? Wrong. I have tremendous respect for my classmates, and I'd like to know that they're all as qualified as I'd expect them to be. And you can scream from the rooftops that it isn't my decision who's going to become a doctor, and you're right. But it's absolutely my right to comment on the professionals entering my community, and to express a belief that they shouldn't be.

As for specifics, all friends I have who are URM despise AA because of the social stigma it bestows upon them. A good friend of mine once told me if it were socially acceptable, he would just go around screaming his HS GPA and SAT scores so that no one would imagine he was there for any reason but excellence. Ultimately, AA hurts under represented minorities most.

I invite you all to read Thomas Sowell.

I'm tired of discussing race for today. Or for a long time.

 

[geno2568]

To you and to Dr. Sax - I'm not really talking about the medical application process, and I don't think anyone will be taking my spot, so we don't have to talk specifics like that differences (that do exist) between AA and sports scholarships - let's keep it conceptual.

And yes, I do think it's naive not to wonder if someone who isn't as intelligent or qualified as the rest of the class exists within it for unjustified reasons, provided that you know that those cases ARE out there. Why does it matter to me? Hell, I'll just do better on curved tests, right? Wrong. I have tremendous respect for my classmates, and I'd like to know that they're all as qualified as I'd expect them to be. And you can scream from the rooftops that it isn't my decision who's going to become a doctor, and you're right. But it's absolutely my right to comment on the professionals entering my community, and to express a belief that they shouldn't be.

As for specifics, all friends I have who are URM despise AA because of the social stigma it bestows upon them. A good friend of mine once told me if it were socially acceptable, he would just go around screaming his HS GPA and SATs so that no one would imagine he was there for any reason but excellence. Ultimately, AA hurts the URM minorities most.

I invite you all to read Thomas Sowell.

I'm tired of discussing race for today. Or for a long time.

👍 👍 👍

 

[notdeadyet]

And you can scream from the rooftops that it isn't my decision who's going to become a doctor, and you're right. But it's absolutely my right to comment on the professionals entering my community, and to express a belief that they shouldn't be.

Absolutely. What concerns me is the belief that "they shouldn't be". You are totally entitled to the opinion that URM AA recipients shouldn't be accepted. Until relatively recently, many held the opinion that URMs shouldn't be in medicine at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am just uncomfortable when the "they shouldn't even be here" philosophy is pushed on others.

Ultimately, AA hurts the URM minorities most.

Well, fortunately those who make the policy and determine the future disagree with this.

I'm tired of discussing race for today. Or for a long time.

Amen to that. Let's all focus on getting our own a$$es in to medical school and not be so concerned with how the other guy gets there.

 

[Haemulon]

Can't we discuss something less controversial now, like maybe Abortion? Or Euthanasia ?

 

[dopaminesurge]

Absolutely. What concerns me is the belief that "they shouldn't be". You are totally entitled to the opinion that URM AA recipients shouldn't be accepted. Until relatively recently, many held the opinion that URMs shouldn't be in medicine at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am just uncomfortable when the "they shouldn't even be here" philosophy is pushed on others.

Oh please. I know I said I'm done here, and I meant it, but please don't draw an implicit comparisons between my valid opinion and the "until relatively recent" opinion that non-whites shouldn't be doctors at all, ok? It's just sort of a low move. If anything, i could gladly bring up the "until relatively recently" Jew quota policies of the Ivy League.

And stop reducing all objectivist-leaning thinkers' opinions that people should be judged exclusively on merit to fears of not getting into medical school. You're just insulting a well thought out philosophy.

Now I'm really done.

 

[notdeadyet]

Can't we discuss something less controversial now, like maybe Abortion? Or Euthanasia ?

But why? No fetus or moribund patient ever hurt my chances of getting in to medical school...

 

[Haemulon]

But why? No fetus or moribund patient ever hurt my chances of getting in to medical school...

What about pregnant women med students during clinical rotations? Women take up med shool slots. They get time off for maternity leave right? Restricted duty if need best rest? How does all that work? 😉 Could be a nice women in medicine debate.



edit: hypothetically of course (flame-jacket disclaimer: statements posted here do not nessecarily match the opinions of the poster.)

 

[notdeadyet]

Oh please. I know I said I'm done here, and I meant it, but please don't draw an implicit comparisons between my valid opinion and the "until relatively recent" opinion that non-whites shouldn't be doctors at all, ok? It's just sort of a low move.

My apologies. No offense was intended.

The only comparison I was intending to make is that when folks have theories for why others are unentitled to be where they are, a few years down the road we look back on it with embarassment. Lots of folks had very good and seemingly sound arguments for things like segregation back in the day until positive social change pointed out its errors. I personally think that folks who feel folks who gain admission to things like medical school and whatnot via affirmative actions will be looking back 30 years ago and wonder why it all seemed so outrageous at the time.

If I gave the impression that you don't feel URMs should be doctors I apologize. The comparison I was apparently poorly drawing is that with time I think the controversial practice of AA will be looked on as a necessary given.

I think I mentioned before, I've got no problem with people being against AA. There are a lot of reasons to be against it. But holding it against recipients? I have problems with. Judging someone is there only based on AA without knowing the full story? I have problems with.

 

[notdeadyet]

Women take up med shool slots. They get time off for maternity leave right?

I don't have a problem with mothers geting maternity leave; I have problems with fathers not getting paternity leave.

 

[Haemulon]

I don't have a problem with mothers geting maternity leave; I have problems with fathers not getting paternity leave.

Good point.

 

[dopaminesurge]

My apologies. No offense was intended.

The only comparison I was intending to make is that when folks have theories for why others are unentitled to be where they are, a few years down the road we look back on it with embarassment. Lots of folks had very good and seemingly sound arguments for things like segregation back in the day until positive social change pointed out its errors. I personally think that folks who feel folks who gain admission to things like medical school and whatnot via affirmative actions will be looking back 30 years ago and wonder why it all seemed so outrageous at the time.

If I gave the impression that you don't feel URMs should be doctors I apologize. The comparison I was apparently poorly drawing is that with time I think the controversial practice of AA will be looked on as a necessary given.

I think I mentioned before, I've got no problem with people being against AA. There are a lot of reasons to be against it. But holding it against recipients? I have problems with. Judging someone is there only based on AA without knowing the full story? I have problems with.

Apology accepted, and I'm issuing my own for the freakout. 👍

 

[geno2568]

ok, so we all like happy now?
some of us agree with AA, other dont, but all want to get into med school and we'r not gonna point figers at each other, right?

good...time to close this biatch.

 

[notdeadyet]

some of us agree with AA, other dont, but all want to get into med school and we'r not gonna point figers at each other, right?

Amen to that. And best of luck to all.

 

[drsax]

ok, so we all like happy now?
some of us agree with AA, other dont, but all want to get into med school and we'r not gonna point figers at each other, right?

good...time to close this biatch.

sounds good to me!

 

[jocg27]

SDN myth - this argument is resolved and in the past.

😛

 

[1Path]

As for specifics, all friends I have who are URM despise AA because of the social stigma it bestows upon them. A good friend of mine once told me if it were socially acceptable, he would just go around screaming his HS GPA and SAT scores so that no one would imagine he was there for any reason but excellence. Ultimately, AA hurts under represented minorities most.

URM's have ALWAYS dealt with social stigmas from the time many of our ancestors were brought here as slaves. Social stigmas are nothing new "round dese her parts"!

Quite frankly ANY URM that feels that he/she must go around shouting his/her scores/GPA suffers from a MUCH larger problem than any social stigma associated affirmative action.

 

[Ari Gold]

All the same, minus #4, for me. I am Middle Eastern, and despite all of my "hardships," I still do not believe a doctor's racial representation should be based on the color of their skin, even if it is just for representation, but instead, the smartest potential doctors should be doctors. I'd rather have a competent person performing a heart transplant on me than a mediocre URM. There are many doctors who are URM but do not need that edge (of AA), and many even find it offensive that they are offered a lot more opportunities merely based on the color of their skin, rather than all their hard work and brains. And so would I. That is why I am against AA, because as long as it is here, others will think that I had benefitted from it unfairly and that there were better fish in the sea.

you don't get AA

 

[Ari Gold]

This is all I heard the whole time I read:

THEY TOOK MY JOB!

DEY TOOK JER DOB!

 

[drsax]

Quite frankly ANY URM that feels that he/she must go around shouting his/her scores/GPA suffers from a MUCH larger problem than any social stigma associated affirmative action.

**thinking the same thing when I read it**

 

[HMSNeuro]

URM's have ALWAYS dealt with social stigmas from the time many of our ancestors were brought here as slaves. Social stigmas are nothing new "round dese her parts"!

Great post!

 

[drsax]

The sad part is you actually thought 1path took it literally...maybe you missed the point.

 

[HMSNeuro]

The sad part is you actually thought 1path took it literally...maybe you missed the point.

😕

 

[drsax]

you're missing the point. the friend didn't actually want to *scream* the numbers.

dialogue in 1path's head "Goodness gracious, anybody that wants to scream their scores is a luny LOL!!!"

here ya go HMSNeuro 😉

 

[HMSNeuro]

I hate people and puppies!

wow.

 

[jbrice1639]

myth: a statement has been made on SDN where not a single poster had anecdotal evidence to discredit said statement.

 

[Dr_Churchsocks]

I was wondering about applying to med school. I am taking the August MCAT becaue i had to take physics in summer school. I won't know the results for a couple months. When i get the results will I be already too far behind the eight ball unless i get amazing scores on the MCAT. I am trying to decide if it is worth me taking the MCAT and doing poorly on it or not getting into med school and having to take a year off or if I should just wait and take the MCAT in april when I have more time to study and more science classes under my belt.

Also, do you think the adcom will look down on me because of how young I am even though I finished school early and have good gpa.

 

[TMP-SMX]

If you haven't tried to get a refund just take the test. You never know... You could do well. However, if you haven't already started thinking about the application process I suggest you don't apply this year. It takes a lot of time out of your life, it costs a whole lot of money, and you really only want to apply once ideally. If you aren't pulling off 28s or above on practice tests I suggest you don't apply. If you aren't pulling off 25 or above and you are sitting in on the test where you have no idea what is going on I suggest you void after the bio section. You really don't want schools seeing a score that is really low.

 

[dopaminesurge]

If you haven't tried to get a refund just take the test. You never know... You could do well. However, if you haven't already started thinking about the application process I suggest you don't apply this year. It takes a lot of time out of your life, it costs a whole lot of money, and you really only want to apply once ideally. If you aren't pulling off 28s or above on practice tests I suggest you don't apply. If you aren't pulling off 25 or above and you are sitting in on the test where you have no idea what is going on I suggest you void after the bio section. You really don't want schools seeing a score that is really low.

Man, my exboyfriend used that damned cat in a grapefruit helmet icon. Whenever I see you, I get immediately irritated.

 

[Anastasis]

I was wondering about applying to med school. I am taking the August MCAT becaue i had to take physics in summer school. I won't know the results for a couple months. When i get the results will I be already too far behind the eight ball unless i get amazing scores on the MCAT. I am trying to decide if it is worth me taking the MCAT and doing poorly on it or not getting into med school and having to take a year off or if I should just wait and take the MCAT in april when I have more time to study and more science classes under my belt.

Also, do you think the adcom will look down on me because of how young I am even though I finished school early and have good gpa.

Gapotts gave good advice, I was just going to add that with the new CBT dates, you don't absolutely NEED to wait til April. I believe there is an exam in January.

Also, younger applicants get in in higher percentages than they apply so I don't think it's a negative. (I remember reading that on the aamc.org website - if someone can find the link about age, that would be helpful!!)