Seattle Pacific University Questions

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WisNeuro said:
56% Match rate and low EPPP pass rate. Those are GIANT cons.
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Thank you for your response. I guess I should be more specific, has anyone attended this university? I already know the statistics of which I can look up myself.
 
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I think dollykramer is just looking for an insider perspective.
 
Averaging the data posted on their website, it looks like the APA match rate for the past six years is 68%.

I would definitely place as much weight on match rates as on students' subjective thoughts on the program, myself.
 
dollykramer said:
That is exactly what I am looking for. Thank you. Also, those stats are not correct. I just checked.
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I just checked the APPIC website and can confirm WisNeuro's stats on their match rate. I'm not sure where you're getting the statistics you're looking at, but if you want to be matched with an accredited internship, the APPIC site is going to be your best match-rate resource.
 
cara susanna said:
Averaging the data posted on their website, it looks like the APA match rate for the past six years is 68%.

I would definitely place as much weight on match rates as on students' subjective thoughts on the program, myself.
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Look at the past 10 years, yikes! It's a roller coaster ride, 14-75%. Their 10 year high is a terrible stat!
 
woodstock219 said:
I just checked the APPIC website and can confirm WisNeuro's stats on their match rate. I'm not sure where you're getting the statistics you're looking at, but if you want to be matched with an accredited internship, the APPIC site is going to be your best match-rate resource.
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Well, match and pass rates are more of a first gate. Look for things at least above an 80%. If they meet that threshold, I would say research fit with your POI and training opportunities are the most important factors. We just harp on the match rate so much because without that APA-accredited internship, you have cut yourself off from some of the largest employers of psych and effectively are vying for a very small job pool relatively.
 
I know we try to bust the myth of the research and practice divide on here, but I still would NOT recommend a clinical science model program to someone who is interested in psyd programs, nor someone who is interested in having, for the most part, a traditional service delivery career. The traditional boulder model serves that purpose just fine.

I know clinical science programs are doing great things that I agree are the future of the field (I just recently reread Berkely's program website), but I still cannot imagine these graduates doing much traditional clinical service themselves outside training and/or implementation development. I would say, 10 years from now, 90% of these graduates will have much different types of careers than the typical psychologist and many will continue on to be linked, in someway, to academic institutions and/or active research programs.
 
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One thing to keep in mind when looking at match rates for programs that are recently accredited is that I would expect them to be relatively low, simply due to the bias that exists and the over-saturation of students entering the match. I noticed that the most recent year, SPU matched 100%.

In order for a program to become accredited it must graduate students- this places those students at a disadvantaged when entering the match. Furthermore, if we think about the fact that those of us providing mentorship to undergraduate students recommend that our students only apply to APA accredited programs, it can be challenging to new programs to recruit top-notch students.

In short, I think this is a reputable program. The class sizes are small, research is valued, and the program has placed many of its students at competitive internship sites.
 
I honestly don't know much about the program itself, although looking at their website, the main concerns I'd have would be the cost (~$135k) if no tuition remission and stipend are available and the fact that 20% of folks across the last six graduating classes were enrolled >7 years.

As was mentioned, this past year they matched 100% of folks to APA internships, which is great (and what programs should be aiming for); prior to that, though, the rates were more troubling (and probably aren't attributable to the program's APA accreditation status, given that it was accredited in 2006).
 
I wouldn't say that the class sizes are small, they are double to triple traditional programs. Add that to the fact that the faculty is the same size if not slightly smaller than those traditional programs = less time spent on each student in terms of mentoring.
 
dollykramer said:
Hello,

I am new to the SDN forums.

I am curious about SPU's doctoral program in clinical psychology. Has anyone here attended the program or have participated in an interview? What are the pros and what are the cons that you have experienced while at SPU? Do you know a friend who attends or has attended this program? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time!
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I'm not sure how insider-y you're looking to go, I think there have been some students from SPU who have posted about their experiences in threads about religious-affiliated programs, if you search for that. But anyhoo, last year I was offered an interview at Seattle Pacific. I applied because I really enjoyed the research and location, I was very nervous that it was not a funded program and did not offer a stipend. I received a generic interview offer and an extremely kind e-mail from my POI stating he was so glad I applied to him because our interested were perfectly aligned, and he was very excited to meet me on interview day. They send out interview offers late in the game, so I had already interviewed at funded programs (didn't end up getting into any!) and realized that I'd rather go to no programs than an unfunded one, so I let him know it wasn't fiscally possible. My experience was pleasant, they seem like a sweet, small university from what I have heard, but:

As stated, the APA match rates are awful. I calculated it, and I think I would be 250k in debt by the time I graduate, and I'm a Los Angeles native, so I could be in debt and go to a crappy school here if I wanted 😉 there's plenty to choose from, haha! Also, while I was interviewing at a top tier school, they asked me where I also had interviews at and most of the students scoffed at SPU, not in a mean way, just in a "turn it down, turn it down!". Also, someone from Seattle gave me his local opinion of the school and it was not very favorable.

I suppose if spirituality is important to you and you REALLY like the work being done there, and you ONLY want to go into private practice and not have a government job, it could be an okay fit. It didn't match my goals and I cannot afford to go to an unfunded program as it seems I will need to take out (small) loans even in funded programs to support myself. Anyway, the pros, to me, was the research being done and the very friendly and interested faculty. Cons are everything everyone mentioned above. Any unfunded university leaves things up to luck and puts you in debt. Sorry I'm not that much of an insider, but since I considered it, I thought this may help!
 
WisNeuro said:
I wouldn't say that the class sizes are small, they are double to triple traditional programs. Add that to the fact that the faculty is the same size if not slightly smaller than those traditional programs = less time spent on each student in terms of mentoring.
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How does mentorship work in programs with larger cohorts anyway? Having attended traditional programs, I have a hard time imagining how you could get the same quality of mentorship in a larger program. For example, my current lab, with 2-3 grad students per faculty member, tends to have each student running a research project a semester (we do a lot of research with schools, so you tend to have to play by the semester calendar for data collection purposes), plus 2-3 longer term projects headed by the PI with grad student collaboration. I can't see how that type of model would work if you tripled the size of the lab.
 
futureapppsy2 said:
How does mentorship work in programs with larger cohorts anyway? Having attended traditional programs, I have a hard time imagining how you could get the same quality of mentorship in a larger program. For example, my current lab, with 2-3 grad students per faculty member, tends to have each student running a research project a semester (we do a lot of research with schools, so you tend to have to play by the semester calendar for data collection purposes), plus 2-3 longer term projects headed by the PI with grad student collaboration. I can't see how that type of model would work if you tripled the size of the lab.
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I imagine it doesn't, which is why you see the terrible match and pass rates from these programs. Subpar training leads to subpar students coming out of these programs.
 
Keep in mind that a positive insider perspective will be biased by cognitive dissonance. If I had bet my future on a sinking ship, I would sure want to believe the ship wasn't sinking.
 
Sendtrees said:
Keep in mind that a positive insider perspective will be biased by cognitive dissonance. If I had bet my future on a sinking ship, I would sure want to believe the ship wasn't sinking.
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dollykramer said:
So, SPU is a sinking ship? That is really discouraging.
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Based on what folks here have said, it sounds like people in the area don't seem to have a particularly high opinion of the program, which means that even if it ends up being great, you could be fighting an uphill battle for things like practicum placements, internship spots, jobs (if you were wanting to work around there), etc.
 
If the EPPP and match rates aren't alarming enough, the most concerning factor (from my foxhole) is the staggering tuition and fees coupled with a high cost of living area. I have lived all over the US and other countries. Currently live in Hawaii. Seattle was on par with Hawaii COL including rent payments. I did sit in on a course and meet many of the faculty members at SPU. I don't have to worry all that much about tuition due to having the GI bill available which will cover all costs for 3 years, yet I was still too concerned to go there. I would only have to worry about paying 1 year, plus internship year, and those potential student loans scared me. I love the area, and the school is nice, having a pleasant and helpful faculty, but the lack of funding with above average all-around costs is a MAJOR detractor.
 
I would only have to worry about paying 1 year, plus internship year, and those potential student loans scared me
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And that's if you get an internship on your first try!
 
Greetings - There is a lot of misinformation about SPU being disseminated in this thread. SPU was formally a PsyD program and had an entirely different training model. My experience is that this is a contributing factor for those who hold judgment in the NW community. Over the past 6-10 years, top-tier faculty from U-Madison, UCSD/SDJC, Penn, UW, etc. were brought in to make significant improvements to the program. They have been effective, as evidenced by the recent re-accreditation (7-years, the maximum), last year's 100% match rate, attainment of NIH grants, and the greater presence of SPU alum locally (e.g., American Lake VA Hospital) and in AMCs and VAs across the U.S.

As others have highlighted, the financial cost is a real disadvantage. I helped mitigate this cost by working at the VA for my first few years. My colleagues have done similarly (e.g., UW Children's Hospital, Teaching gigs, etc.) but it definitely takes initiative.

Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions about the graduate training. I will try to provide a dispassionate assessment of the program's strengths and weaknesses.
 
WisNeuro said:
While I applaud the match rate last year, I'd be wary until I saw it as a continuing trend and not just one year in isolation.
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As of this morning SPU is 100% for the second year in a row. I matched at my top choice (a highly regarded AMC) so I'm especially ecstatic!
 
DrMindful said:
As of this morning SPU is 100% for the second year in a row. I matched at my top choice (a highly regarded AMC) so I'm especially ecstatic!
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Definitely a plus. Now just work on that EPPP pass rate and providing tuition remission and a stipend and you're good to go there!
 
DrMindful said:
As of this morning SPU is 100% for the second year in a row. I matched at my top choice (a highly regarded AMC) so I'm especially ecstatic!
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Is that 100% APA or APPIC?
 
AcronymAllergy said:
Looks like it was 100% APA/CPA last year, so I'd guess it's APA again this year...?
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Correct 100% APA.

The problem with the EPPP pass rate and the APPIC match rate documents posted on the respective websites is that both are outdated. For most programs this leads to some inaccuracy, but for SPU and other programs who had a lengthy pre-accreditation history this is particularly problematic. The number of students applying to SPU skyrocketed after accreditation, meaning that the program went from having an acceptance/applicant ration of about 45% to one of 11% making it a much more competitive program. Similarly students competing for internships from 1999-2008 were ineligible to compete for most APA accredited internships, especially those at VA's, AMC's, Military, etc. 2008 is listed even though the initial APA accreditation was awarded in 2006 because the nature of the accreditation process means that notification of status only comes to the program about 15-18 months after application even though the decision is backdated to the application (2006). After SPU students were able to apply freely to APA accredited sites you see match rates of 75%, 75%, 88%, 100% (APA) and 100% (APA) during those 5 match cycles. These data are available on the APA mandated,scrutinized and standardized disclosure statement http://www.spu.edu/depts/spfc/clinicalpsych/documents/2013DisclosureOutcomesAPA_000.pdf. This will also clear up some misinformation about time to degree posted above, which is well below the average of APA accredited Ph.D. programs at 6.3 years. Finally the EPPP pass rate data that is most currently available is for 2007-2012. The first graduating class who were admitted to SPU under the highly selective post APA accreditation iteration of the program, has just begun to take the licensing exam in 2013. The cost and absence of tuition remission are fair critiques. Finally, the local reputation of the program is not a problem. Current postdoc fellows and psychologists at UW Med Center, Seattle VA, American Lake VA, Western State Hospital, Children's Hospital, etc. are SPU clincal psych grads.
 
Just an update - SPU is not a sinking ship ☺️🩷 I graduated in 2020 and work at a top hospital and had excellent practicums and training. I got one of my top internship placements. Downside is the student loans but all of mine will be forgiven through PSLF. It has the same downsides as any PsyD program.
 
Dapsychwizard said:
Just an update - SPU is not a sinking ship ☺️🩷 I graduated in 2020 and work at a top hospital and had excellent practicums and training. I got one of my top internship placements. Downside is the student loans but all of mine will be forgiven through PSLF. It has the same downsides as any PsyD program.
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Glad it's working out for you, sincerely! That said, I definitely wouldn't count on PSLF, especially these days.
 
Dapsychwizard said:
That's not very kind to say, especially with so many students on this platform with student loan debt. To provide education to readers who feel discouraged - PSLF is a federal law, meaning it cannot be taken away without an act of Congress, which is highly unlikely. Even if changes were made, borrowers already in the program would almost certainly be grandfathered in and still receive forgiveness. The government has a legal and contractual obligation to honor PSLF for those who meet the requirements.

And even if it didn't exist I am happy I got a higher education!
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The government also has a legal and contractual obligation to have a Department of Education and the USAID under current law, but well… look at the past two weeks. I’m in support of PSLF but looking at what’s currently going on, I wouldn’t be 100% sure it will be honored. Not sure how that’s “mean”—I’m not saying that they should get rid of it, to be clear!
 
futureapppsy2 said:
The government also has a legal and contractual obligation to have a Department of Education and the USAID under current law, but well… look at the past two weeks. I’m in support of PSLF but looking at what’s currently going on, I wouldn’t be 100% sure it will be honored. Not sure how that’s “mean”—I’m not saying that they should get rid of it, to be clear!
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Agreed. I would not want to bank my economic future on a government forgiveness program to begin with, but doubly (or triply) so with the current administration.
 
WisNeuro said:
Repealed, not as much of a chance, modified by the DoE or Congress, highly likely. Relying on PSLF is not a great idea.
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Or just rejecting the vast, vast majority of the applicants for extremely nit-picky technical reasons, as they did under the first Trump administration.
 
The mpn is the mpn. it's pretty clear as day. Before Biden, from 2017-2020, you essentially had to show that you made the payments post 2007, they qualified, and had to have hard copies of everything (I had one friend, lawyer, who had all of this and did get it in 2019, but most just didn't have the proper documentation, and many had loans that didn't qualify). The Biden admin really streamlined it, and now people have qualifying accurate payment counts with loans that qualify. All of that being said, i could see everyone currently in the program being put into a limbo of forbearance until a dem gets elected. Trump really just doesn't wanna be shown to be doing anything that promotes college and higher ed. The universities are now the bad guys. It's pretty messed up that that is where we are now, where higher ed has become right-coded as the enemy. As it relates to Seattle Pacific? I'd still avoid any program that leads to that level of debt, especially now. I would avoid this program like the plague. I know a couple of their grads and I honestly have no idea how they are allowed to practice.
 
While there is a focus on the comment about being mean, I am glad the OP came back and updated the thread. I do hope that they continue to do so and provide a balanced perspective.My views changed considerably over the first 10 years in practice. I am curious, aside from banking on PSLF, what early career life looks like for this person. Are you renting an apt or do you own a house? Do you have children or not? How many hours do you work? How many vacations do you take?

Students need to know that stuff too. I think a lot of people (students, nurses, other professionals) might not realize what that looks like. I drove a decade old hand-me-down Camry when I was a "doctor". PsyD colleagues with higher loan balances struggled to afford student loans, an apartment, and the payment on new compact car. Several could only afford basement apartments.
 
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