Second author pub in peer-reviewed journal - does it help?

[ReptarBar]

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its a pretty big deal. a lot of times people have the option of doing many things they want to do but can only do so much. knowing this "bin" system can definitely help out in planning out your undergraduate career. maybe someone with a publication can finally take on a sport or volunteer somewhere and drop the research, etc.

 

[LAman10]

its a pretty big deal. a lot of times people have the option of doing many things they want to do but can only do so much. knowing this "bin" system can definitely help out in planning out your undergraduate career. maybe someone with a publication can finally take on a sport or volunteer somewhere and drop the research, etc.

umm I'm sure it wouldn't look too great if adcoms saw that you did research until you got a pub and then just dropped it. in any case, I think LizzyM was just giving an example of how adcoms view research involvement. in other words, she was just trying to show that they do hold a higher distinction for pubs, but whether you have 5 pubs or 1 pub, and whether you're 2nd or 3rd or 4th auhor, is pretty negligible--you're all categorized into the same level when they're evaluating your research experience. at the same time, there are also separate distinctions for funded research vs. long-term research vs. short-term research. I'm sure not every school uses the "bin" system, although they probably view research much in the same way (just as some schools would make a distinction between a 3.79 and a 3.71 gpa, while others wouldn't). either way, don't get hung up on this "bin" system; I'm sure everyone's research will get justice at most schools.. I mean, honestly, adcoms have been doing this for years. have faith in them!

 

[ReptarBar]

well yea im just tryin to explain why its so important to some people. and i dont see how dropping a research lab after a pub would automatically be negative...the publication is usually the culmination of much hard work.

in terms of research, some people are fiends for it and want as much as possible. this kind of mentality rubs off on others (especially when you go to a research-driven school) and makes you doubt your own efforts. obviously you should do what you want, but in the end everyone is just trying to get in med school or a certain med school. knowing about this bin system gives relief to people who doubt their own accomplishments or are just not sure where they stand.

 

[plsletmein]

its a pretty big deal. a lot of times people have the option of doing many things they want to do but can only do so much. knowing this "bin" system can definitely help out in planning out your undergraduate career. maybe someone with a publication can finally take on a sport or volunteer somewhere and drop the research, etc.

Wow... I completely take back my rants a few posts up

and it's people like you why some PIs will say in their job listings for undergraduate researchers something to the effect of "pre-meds need not apply"

 

[ReptarBar]

wow im getting insulted by a guy named "pls let me in." thats cool.

you dont know anything about me. i dont hunt for pubs nor do i do things solely for my resume. spring quarter i actually dropped a research spot just because it was idiotic. although i am nearly finished writing a publication, it just happened to fall on my lap. i actually emailed the doctor im working with asking about volunteer/intern opportunities and i somehow got into this publication business. i never even dreamed of getting a publication before this happened...it was just a whole different culture i thought i would never get involved with.

so please, sit down. i noticed you are applying this summer, and i hope the process goes terrible for you.

just your inability to create a regular username echoes how much of a douchebag/loser you are.

 

[LizzyM]

I was wondering, what if I did research during the summer and I got a paper accepted to be published... Would that be a +4 for me, even though it was just one summer?

Q: If I buy a pair of running shoes and start training this week, do you think that I can win the New York City marathon this fall?

A: It is about as likely as doing research for a single summer and getting a paper accepted for publication.

 

[JasonE]

Q: If I buy a pair of running shoes and start training this week, do you think that I can win the New York City marathon this fall?

A: It is about as likely as doing research for a single summer and getting a paper accepted for publication.

although i understand the point and agree, if you tag along on a postdoc's project (ie. help him run experiments here and there), it could totally happen. seen quite a few mdapps with ppl who have listed pubs from 1 summer of research

 

[plsletmein]

wow im getting insulted by a guy named "pls let me in." thats cool.

you dont know anything about me. i dont hunt for pubs nor do i do things solely for my resume. spring quarter i actually dropped a research spot just because it was idiotic. although i am nearly finished writing a publication, it just happened to fall on my lap. i actually emailed the doctor im working with asking about volunteer/intern opportunities and i somehow got into this publication business. i never even dreamed of getting a publication before this happened...it was just a whole different culture i thought i would never get involved with.

so please, sit down. i noticed you are applying this summer, and i hope the process goes terrible for you.

just your inability to create a regular username echoes how much of a douchebag/loser you are.

nice to see how much my post ruffled your feathers

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Who said anything about job listings?? Most premeds doing research are not applying for paid positions but volunteer positions that give them experience. it is only if they have a lag year that they start to consider paid positions or if they are in desperate need of money. but most people volunteer in ugrad for research and do not get paid unless it is part of some sorta internship. So what does job listings have to do with anything? Besides lots of premeds get jobs too in research by being creative and not mentioning med school til later on.

for real? in my school the undergrads were paid as well, esp in the summers.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm sure what they meant by scut work is someone who is not significantly contributing to a project i.e. just comes in 2-3 days a week and does a few things here and there but can't really tell what it is contributing to because they did not have a project. Like some ugrads really dedicate long hours to research (i've known some to go into lab at midnight to check on things) and these people have projects of their own that they have done i.e. for a senior thesis or something. i.e. it is the difference of someone who is just running the gels b/c they are told to do so but know nothing of what the project is really about and may be running say a lot of gels for multiple projects but not be involved in a given project from start to finish.

Here's an example.

In the neuro lab I briefly volunteered in, you would perform these surgeries on the rat brains and do those procedures, then sacrifice the rat, take the brain and put in solution and then eventually slice the brain into histo sections which would then be stained via immunohistochemistry protocols. After that you'd put them on slides and use this counting program on the computer to look and count for what they were counting for.

To say you did all that regardless of whether you published or got the results you wanted would be to say you had your own full fledged project.

Now if you were just sitting and doing all the immunohistochemistry for all different projects whole day you'd still be helping but you'd not be having your own project to yourself. That would be scut to some people.

what you're saying is scut to some people as well. interesting, but scut.

 

[plsletmein]

I put scut in quotations and asterisks because someone else used that term- scut to one person may not be scut to another and vice versa.

PIs often use job listing places to advertise for unpaid volunteer undergrads. They say stuff like "do not apply if pre-med" because of toxic experiences with people that are either unenthusiastic or put in a half a** job until they deem it worthy enough to put on a CV and cut and run or something similar

 

[orrghead16]

PIs often use job listing places to advertise for unpaid volunteer undergrads. They say stuff like "do not apply if pre-med" because of toxic experiences with people that are either unenthusiastic or put in a half a** job until they deem it worthy enough to put on a CV and cut and run or something similar

My last lab did it all the time. PI got so sick of a few premeds playing the game that he opted to never take premeds in anymore.

 

[brahms11]

Over 9000!

Am I the only one who appreciates this!? 😕

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI

 

[Longshanks]

Am I the only one who appreciates this!? 😕

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI

Nope, I just saw this thread now and that was an amazing comment that poster made.

 

[shindotp]

Q: If I buy a pair of running shoes and start training this week, do you think that I can win the New York City marathon this fall?

A: It is about as likely as doing research for a single summer and getting a paper accepted for publication.

Well, we (PI and I) started writing our paper for my project that I worked on during the summer... He's pretty confident it will be published too.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You missed the point of that paragraph. The point was not the activity itself but whether you are doing like in that example, all the different procedures as a collective whole to finish a whole project or doing one part of that project over and over for a multitude of projects but not given a project.

When an activity is done over and over whether its the surgeries or whether its immunohistochemistry but with no sense of I've learned all these procedures and put them together to do my own project, but rather are doing one small part of it and not enough to warrant saying it was part of a single project that feels like scut.

On a more menial level scut is also when you are the one who is washing dishes and writing labels out but most people at least get to do more then that.

to me, it doesn't matter what you're doing or whether you do everything related to a project. until you actually have conceptual input and a voice in the direction of the research itself, it's still scut.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

If it is your own project you do have some input into things I'd imagine. But a lot of people would have to first get reasonable data or be able to have that level of knowledge to make suggestions on other ways to approach it to get to that stage. An ugrad is not going to have that level of knowledge to suggest alternative means unless they've been doing research since high school and even then it will depend on a lot of things.

But I suppose it is as someone else stated, what is scut to one is not scut to another.

In medicine people consider scut being the person just doing the most menial of tasks rather then getting to aid the residents by learning how to take the histories or examine the patient but by your definition taking the histories would be scut as well even if you are doing something that is more meaningful. But like I said, what someone else said about what is scut to one is not to another seems to hold true.

disagree, undergrads should have the ability to affect the direction of research in most fields. it just requires the desire to actually understand the field

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I disagree. A lot of themm have the most basic level of classes at the time they start ugrad research. so that does not give them the in depth knowledge to have a say. At least at my university even the graduate students working in those labs were often following the protocols of their PI and not the ones deciding every ounce of it but it was still their project and their work and eventually if they did come up with something that could help better the work they were to suggest it but the main protocols and ideas were the PI's and final calls on anything was the PIs as it was his grant money and his name that would be on a lot of the work even if the person whose project it was was the first name on there.

A lot of people who do ugrad research start when they are still taking the prereqs to science classes and therefore do not have the power or in depth knowledge to make decisions and even if they do it would require reading books for hours on end to get to that level of knowledge and most don't have the time for that with school and other activities.

you don't need classes beyond the most basic sciences to start understanding your research. if you are involved in meaningful science work, the liklihood of you learning a ton about your research topic in a class is nearly nill anyway due to the investigators being way far ahead. you gain knowledge through reading the relevant papers, which any college sophomore who has taken the basics should be able to do. i'm not saying the ugrad should completely take over the project, but should be able to affect the research in a manner to actually deserve authorship.

and i agree it's not easy to get to that level of understanding - that doesn't mean it's not possible nor does it mean it shouldn't be the overt goal of an undergrad in research

 

[Forbes]

I disagree. A lot of themm have the most basic level of classes at the time they start ugrad research. so that does not give them the in depth knowledge to have a say. At least at my university even the graduate students working in those labs were often following the protocols of their PI and not the ones deciding every ounce of it but it was still their project and their work and eventually if they did come up with something that could help better the work they were to suggest it but the main protocols and ideas were the PI's and final calls on anything was the PIs as it was his grant money and his name that would be on a lot of the work even if the person whose project it was was the first name on there.

A lot of people who do ugrad research start when they are still taking the prereqs to science classes and therefore do not have the power or in depth knowledge to make decisions and even if they do it would require reading books for hours on end to get to that level of knowledge and most don't have the time for that with school and other activities.

I am in this boat, I am further ahead in my degree than most of my peers, but the lab I am involved in has demonstrated my complete and utter lack of knowledge. I admit, the field I decided to look into was not as interesting as I had hoped and now I am stuck in a rut. I have not given a lot of input into the experiments that I am running with a grad student in my lab, but there is a good reason for this. I simply do not have the technical knowledge. He understands this, I understand this, and I am trying to read and understand so that I can take on more of an intellectual role. I am going to complete this experiment in this lab and hopefully gain the expertise to do my own stuff. There is simply no class that can teach you to be rigorous in your scientific method like working in a lab can. I'm in disease ecology and I am more interested in the genetic aspects of infectious disease, which is what is irking me at the moment. I feel like I am fulfilling the stereotype of a premed who is just trying to boost his resume, yet I work damn hard on my project. I have clocked more than 50 hours in a week twice this summer, that was a crappy week.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Ok put that way yes you do have a point that it is possible to get to that point but unless most are going into research as their career or even part of their career i.e. MD/PhD or MD who wants to be in academic medicine, you are not going to always find ugrads who ever reach that level because esp in the case of many they don't even do it from freshman year day one or long enough to get to that level. That's why authorship is a big deal when it does happen and why less people are getting authorship in the first place.

But even so, I do still believe that to a certain degree that even if they've read the relevant papers and what not, a lot will ultimately depend on the PI and how much they trust you enough to listen to such ideas as new ways to approach things outside of their protocol at many places.

But I'm done with whatever I have to say on this topic. Nice talking with you on here and I guess we'll be meeting in a month at BU. I guess we have our difference in viewpoints based on our own individual experiences with research. Though I do see your point with the last post.

word. it's also nice to be able to hash out different viewpoints while having a pleasant and respectful convo. imagine that.

 

[BrainBuff]

This thread has more rampant speculation than anything else. I will admit; it is somewhat amusing to see the degree of neuroticism among SDN users.

 

[shindotp]

This thread has more rampant speculation than anything else. I will admit; it is somewhat amusing to see the degree of neuroticism among SDN users.

I would hardly call LizzyM's words "speculation."

 

[iamxp]

I am wondering this as well - does the impact factor of the journal really matter when it comes to ugrads publishing?

 

[iamxp]

its just so much BS. i could have been someones stooge, done pretty much nothing, and gotten a publication in another lab. but i stuck with the one I was in because I liked the research and having my own project, but i get less from it applcation wise than others. it doesnt make sense.

Don't think you necessarily need a publication to talk about your research

 

[FutureScaresMe]

I have a question. The post-doc I work with is getting ready to submit her work next week and decided to include me as an author. I come from a very well known lab in the field and her manuscript will almost certainly be published. Is this something I should update med schools with?

 

[Crupen]

Great info from LizzyM in this thread 👍

 

[Dreaming big]

I am wondering this as well - does the impact factor of the journal really matter when it comes to ugrads publishing?

Have you not read this thread?

 

[Frazier]

Research FTW!

 

[addo]

-

 

[Dreaming big]

Have you not read the date of this thread?

I'm sure the fellow [who hasn't made a post on SDN in almost half a year BTW] will appreciate your rhetorical question. 😉

just bumping for other people...

 

[MrNeuro]

i disagree with the above post, the impact factor of that journal, from a quick search on google, is <0.5...sorry to say, this publication may even hurt you..

HAHAHA SORRY....thats a career breaker right there....phd i worked with said if they ever try putting my name on a paper w/ an impact factor less than 5 i'm gonna pay them to take my name off.

 

[smarts1]

.

 

[Ursa]

I wish this thread wasn't 1.5 years old. My answer to the OP would have been: what do you think?

 

[gettheleadout]

I wish this thread wasn't 1.5 years old. My answer to the OP would have been: what do you think?

Yeah it seems like the general (active) population of SDN is more knowledgeable (sometimes) and sarcastic than before...

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

What do you guys think of the journal "Cancer Research"? It has an IF of around 8.5. Is this a pretty respectable/great journal?

/facepalm