PhD/PsyD Second Career to PsyD

[Brown2002]

Hello,
I'm 15 years out of college and have decided to enter a second career in psychology. After much exploration, I believe a PsyD is the right path for me (as opposed to a clinical PhD or terminal masters in counseling). I have the flexibility to attend a program full-time and the resources to attend a program that isn't funded.

In terms of pre-requisites (coursework, research experience, appropriate recommenders), I have a lot of ground to makeup. I went to a top undergraduate university in the US (but did not major in psychology), and am relatively confident in my ability to achieve a solid GRE score. Given the likely expense/time commitment of a PsyD program, I am somewhat reluctant to attend a general psych masters first to make up this groundwork if I can avoid it. My dream would be to fulfill my coursework prerequisites as a non-degree student at a local university (I'm in NYC) and volunteer as an RA in 2022 in preparation to apply one year from now (Dec '22 - Jan '23) for Fall '23 start date.

Given my background, am I crazy to think I would be in an appropriate place one year from now to apply to reputable PsyD programs (looking at Rutgers, Yeshiva, Hartford among others)? Or given the ground I need to make up, should I bite the bullet and focus on gaining admission to general psych masters programs as a stepping stone to PsyD?

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[WisNeuro]

Why a PsyD only and not considering balanced and clinically focused PhDs in the mix as well? Particularly when considering the field as a second career, you want to keep your debt load as small as possible.

 

[Brown2002]

Why a PsyD only and not considering balanced and clinically focused PhDs in the mix as well? Particularly when considering the field as a second career, you want to keep your debt load as small as possible.

Fair enough, and it's possible I end up including some PhD options when I apply. I suppose my main question still stands: could 1 year of independent preparation (courses, research, volunteer clinical experience) adequately prepare me to apply to doctoral programs?

 

[WisNeuro]

Fair enough, and it's possible I end up including some PhD options when I apply. I suppose my main question still stands: could 1 year of independent preparation (courses, research, volunteer clinical experience) adequately prepare me to apply to doctoral programs?

The real question is, could 1 year of prep get you into a funded program. The answer is, there's a slim chance, but probably not. You need pre-reqs, you need meaningful lab experience, and you need good letters of rec, with at least 1 from the field. Unless you're planning on starting all of those things Jan 1st, and even if you did, I don't see how you can get all of the experience you'll need by application time in 2022. Applying in 2023 is probably a much more realistic timeline for a reputable program.

 

[PsyDr]

You want to be able to sell yourself to the admissions committee. Your modal competition is 22 years old, with a 3.9 GPA, a few minor publications, some research experience, and a willingness to do anything. Figure out why they would benefit from choosing you, and who would benefit.

 

[futureapppsy2]

You want to be able to sell yourself to the admissions committee. Your modal competition is 22 years old, with a 3.9 GPA, a few minor publications, some research experience, and a willingness to do anything. Figure out why they would benefit from choosing you, and who would benefit.

Although I agree overall, I'd say most applicants don't have any publications, and it would be rare for someone to have more than, say, two middle-author pubs. The more modal applicant maybe has a few posters/presentations, with perhaps a manuscript or two under review.

 

[WisNeuro]

Although I agree overall, I'd say most applicants don't have any publications, and it would be rare for someone to have more than, say, two middle-author pubs. The more modal applicant maybe has a few posters/presentations, with perhaps a manuscript or two under review.

Yeah, maybe a poster or two, but only our top tier applicants had legitimate pubs. But, I'd say that OP is still way behind the competitive curve, as most serious applicants also have more than 9 months of research experience.

 

[psych.meout]

Fair enough, and it's possible I end up including some PhD options when I apply. I suppose my main question still stands: could 1 year of independent preparation (courses, research, volunteer clinical experience) adequately prepare me to apply to doctoral programs?

Besides cost/funding, as others have pointed out, the question is whether you'd be adequately prepared to apply to quality doctoral programs. If you were to apply next fall, the kinds of programs that would admit students with less than a year of experience and barely the minimum coursework requirements are generally going to be poor quality programs.

 

[R. Matey]

Yeah, maybe a poster or two, but only our top tier applicants had legitimate pubs. But, I'd say that OP is still way behind the competitive curve, as most serious applicants also have more than 9 months of research experience.

Not hard to get though presuming the OP is willing to volunteer their time in a lab at the local AMC.

 

[WisNeuro]

Not hard to get though presuming the OP is willing to volunteer their time in a lab at the local AMC.

Yep, given enough time. But, finding, interviewing for, accepting, and getting past the basic orientation stuff in a lab takes time. 9-10 months is going to be rough. And, for most people askinbg for a letter with less than a year put in, that letter will likely be average, at best.

 

[R. Matey]

Given the likely expense/time commitment of a PsyD program, I am somewhat reluctant to attend a general psych masters first to make up this groundwork if I can avoid it. My dream would be to fulfill my coursework prerequisites as a non-degree student at a local university (I'm in NYC) and volunteer as an RA in 2022 in preparation to apply one year from now (Dec '22 - Jan '23) for Fall '23 start date.

Are you geographically restricted? That, and a fear/disdain of stats are the two main reasons people want Psy.D. programs from what I've seen on this board. But, if you're confident about your academic ability, you could also do some post-bacc work while volunteering/working as an RA.

 

[R. Matey]

Yep, given enough time. But, finding, interviewing for, accepting, and getting past the basic orientation stuff in a lab takes time. 9-10 months is going to be rough. And, for most people askinbg for a letter with less than a year put in, that letter will likely be average, at best.

That's true. if the OP is serious about a Ph.D. program, it's probably 1-2 years of prep work. Unfunded Psy.Ds just require a pulse and an open line of credit.

 

[psych.meout]

Yep, given enough time. But, finding, interviewing for, accepting, and getting past the basic orientation stuff in a lab takes time. 9-10 months is going to be rough. And, for most people askinbg for a letter with less than a year put in, that letter will likely be average, at best.

Before grad school I applied to a research job and the PI interviewing me was explicit about requiring a minimum 2-year commitment and I don't think I would have even gotten a letter from them if I tried to apply before then, even if I technically would have met that minimum before I left for grad school.

 

[WisNeuro]

Before grad school I applied to a research job and the PI interviewing me was explicit about requiring a minimum 2-year commitment and I don't think I would have even gotten a letter from them if I tried to apply before then, even if I technically would have met that minimum before I left for grad school.

We'd ask for a min of 1 year. We'd still write letters for people who wanted one after like 3 months. We were pretty up front that the letter would essentially just say that the person showed up and not much else.

 

[R. Matey]

Before grad school I applied to a research job and the PI interviewing me was explicit about requiring a minimum 2-year commitment and I don't think I would have even gotten a letter from them if I tried to apply before then, even if I technically would have met that minimum before I left for grad school.

I've heard of the two year rule before in some AMC labs, but I think that's mainly for paid positions. In the labs/teams that I've been in or worked with, the requirements for students and volunteers were more on par with what Wis is reporting.

 

[summerbabe]

Given my background, am I crazy to think I would be in an appropriate place one year from now to apply to reputable PsyD programs (looking at Rutgers, Yeshiva, Hartford among others)? Or given the ground I need to make up, should I bite the bullet and focus on gaining admission to general psych masters programs as a stepping stone to PsyD?

Take a look at APA’s accreditation portal which posts data on cohort size and for some programs, how many people applied, GREs, GPA, attrition and licensure info, etc.

For example, Rutgers receives up to 400 apps a year for ~20 some spots so this is almost certainly out of reach with only one year of prep and your background. Hartford and Yeshiva have similar cohort sizes but not application info posted.

If your primary aim is to be accepted somewhere for Fall 23, your best bet would be to apply to programs with larger cohorts and higher acceptance rates. Of course there are tradeoffs to that bargain.

If you want a greater shot at better training and historical professional outcomes, more time may be required as others have suggested.

 

[Sanman]

What exactly are your long-term goals in the field? You may be able to gain entry into some PsyD programs with that little experience. However, that does not mean you will be able to achieve your longer term goals in the field. Rushing things like research experience now just means you may be at a deficit when applying against other applicants. This is especially true in places like NYC where you are competing for clinical externship rotations and other experiences that will shape your path in the future.

 

[Brown2002]

Unless you're planning on starting all of those things Jan 1st, and even if you did, I don't see how you can get all of the experience you'll need by application time in 2022. Applying in 2023 is probably a much more realistic timeline for a reputable program.

This is helpful! Thank you. What I'm hearing is that a year is most likely too little time to prepare for the kind of quality training that I'm looking for. What I'm not hearing is that pursuing a Masters is crucial for gaining that preparation -- given enough time, I can essentially assemble the coursework prerequisites, research experience and clinical experience to prepare. Please let me know if I have that wrong.

Figure out why they would benefit from choosing you, and who would benefit.

Helpful macro perspective - I appreciate it.

Are you geographically restricted? That, and a fear/disdain of stats are the two main reasons people want Psy.D. programs from what I've seen on this board. But, if you're confident about your academic ability, you could also do some post-bacc work while volunteering/working as an RA.

The thinking behind PsyD: 1) Yes, I am hoping to stay in NY/tristate area if at all possible. 2) I'm generally more interested in clinical work than research. 3) Given my age, I am also interested in a shorter path to a doctorate if it's available (I understand that generally PsyD's tend to be slightly shorter than PhD's - I am sure there are exceptions to this), 4) I am in the extremely fortunate position that I can afford a paid program, given that I've already had a career in business. I am focused on getting quality training but the PsyD cost hurdle does mean that I will be up against fewer competitive applicants and have a greater chance of acceptance. Not a reason not to throw my hat into PhD programs as well...

And, for most people asking for a letter with less than a year put in, that letter will likely be average, at best.

Wonderful context!

 

[Dazen]

What do you want to do with a PsyD/PhD that you couldn’t do with a masters? Especially if you’re interested in a shorter path and primarily or exclusively clinical work, this might be a much more efficient option. As someone who didn’t study psychology undergrad and is currently in a PhD program, I’d recommend getting credits as a non-degree student to meet basic requirements and focusing on research experience rather than a masters. Masters programs are primarily useful if you have a low undergrad GPA.

 

[psych.meout]

The thinking behind PsyD: 1) Yes, I am hoping to stay in NY/tristate area if at all possible. 2) I'm generally more interested in clinical work than research. 3) Given my age, I am also interested in a shorter path to a doctorate if it's available (I understand that generally PsyD's tend to be slightly shorter than PhD's - I am sure there are exceptions to this), 4) I am in the extremely fortunate position that I can afford a paid program, given that I've already had a career in business. I am focused on getting quality training but the PsyD cost hurdle does mean that I will be up against fewer competitive applicants and have a greater chance of acceptance. Not a reason not to throw my hat into PhD programs as well...

1. Geographically limiting yourself can severely hinder your competitiveness, primarily because geography is a poor basis for fit, which is the most important criterion for admissions. Most people move for grad school and moving multiple times during training (i.e., grad school, internship, and post doc) is typical. If you can't move for internship, you're going to have difficulty matching to an accredited site and attending an unaccredited internship will severely limit you career options.
2. It's a common misconception that PsyDs are geared towards clinical work and PhDs are geared towards academia and research. Most PhD graduates are in some form of clinical job.
3. There really aren't significant differences in length between quality programs, whether they are PhD or PsyD. Shortening your training may get you out of grad school faster, but it will limit your skills and knowledge and hinder your ability to match for internship, which will make it even more problematic in matching if you are also geographically limited.
4. It's not about being able to afford an unfunded program, it's about unfunded programs being poor investments. Unfunded programs have less investment in their students because you are paying them to attend instead of them paying for you as funded programs do. This causes them to have larger cohorts, which leads to various negative consequences, including less/poorer quality mentorship, more competition for external practica (this means you may not get the training experiences you want, which can then limit your internship and career options), etc. It's not a wise strategy to apply to programs that are expensive and unfunded to cut down on your competition. It actually doesn't really limit your competition, or number of applicants because people are more than willing to take mountains of debt to go to grad school, they don't need cash to fund themselves. Even if it did, that's going to lead you into the aforementioned diploma mills and other poor training.

 

[Brown2002]

What do you want to do with a PsyD/PhD that you couldn’t do with a masters? Especially if you’re interested in a shorter path and primarily or exclusively clinical work, this might be a much more efficient option. As someone who didn’t study psychology undergrad and is currently in a PhD program, I’d recommend getting credits as a non-degree student to meet basic requirements and focusing on research experience rather than a masters. Masters programs are primarily useful if you have a low undergrad GPA.

I'd like to have the option to teach, research, write or work in an organizational setting in addition to counseling in private practice. From my research and conversations, my understanding is that masters-level therapists are much more limited in what career options they have. Also, the clinical hours required for licensure in my state post-MA program are enough that the difference in time investment between a doctoral path and masters path is not too significant.

 

[Brown2002]

1. Geographically limiting yourself can severely hinder your competitiveness, primarily because geography is a poor basis for fit, which is the most important criterion for admissions. Most people move for grad school and moving multiple times during training (i.e., grad school, internship, and post doc) is typical. If you can't move for internship, you're going to have difficulty matching to an accredited site and attending an unaccredited internship will severely limit you career options.
2. It's a common misconception that PsyDs are geared towards clinical work and PhDs are geared towards academia and research. Most PhD graduates are in some form of clinical job.
3. There really aren't significant differences in length between quality programs, whether they are PhD or PsyD. Shortening your training may get you out of grad school faster, but it will limit your skills and knowledge and hinder your ability to match for internship, which will make it even more problematic in matching if you are also geographically limited.
4. It's not about being able to afford an unfunded program, it's about unfunded programs being poor investments. Unfunded programs have less investment in their students because you are paying them to attend instead of them paying for you as funded programs do. This causes them to have larger cohorts, which leads to various negative consequences, including less/poorer quality mentorship, more competition for external practica (this means you may not get the training experiences you want, which can then limit your internship and career options), etc. It's not a wise strategy to apply to programs that are expensive and unfunded to cut down on your competition. It actually doesn't really limit your competition, or number of applicants because people are more than willing to take mountains of debt to go to grad school, they don't need cash to fund themselves. Even if it did, that's going to lead you into the aforementioned diploma mills and other poor training.

I appreciate the myth-busting here!

 

[psycle708]

You might consider widening your search to counseling psych programs (and potentially school psych if you have any interest in child/adolescent), especially if you are geographically limited. There's a very big overlap in what you can do with a doctorate in clinical, counseling, or school psych.

 

[R. Matey]

It's a common misconception that PsyDs are geared towards clinical work and PhDs are geared towards academia and research. Most PhD graduates are in some form of clinical job.

To add to this, it's a common marketing strategy of predatory programs to cast themselves as more clinically geared to justify the cost of additional coursework.

It's not about being able to afford an unfunded program, it's about unfunded programs being poor investments. Unfunded programs have less investment in their students because you are paying them to attend instead of them paying for you as funded programs do. This causes them to have larger cohorts, which leads to various negative consequences, including less/poorer quality mentorship, more competition for external practica (this means you may not get the training experiences you want, which can then limit your internship and career options), etc. It's not a wise strategy to apply to programs that are expensive and unfunded to cut down on your competition. It actually doesn't really limit your competition, or number of applicants because people are more than willing to take mountains of debt to go to grad school, they don't need cash to fund themselves. Even if it did, that's going to lead you into the aforementioned diploma mills and other poor training.

@psych.meout is completely right on this point. Additionally, the hidden cost of attending these types of programs are lost opportunities as some internships/postdocs/jobs won't consider applicants from these types of programs. You may end up undercutting your ultimate goal in favor of taking a shortcut.

 

[psych_o]

I also pursued a doctorate in psychology after 10+ years of working in a different industry (finance). I also got a BA from a top 10 undergraduate institution in an unrelated field. I did this by giving myself a 1.5 years of runway time which I spent taking extension psych courses at reputable universities, volunteering in multiple labs (which yielded 3 rec letters from relatively well-known academics and 1 poster) and by being very strategic about where I applied: funded PhD programs in less attractive geographic locations with higher than average acceptance rates (greater than 2%). While I was prepared to wait 2 rounds of applying, I got a handful of interviews, and two offers the first round and am now near the end of my schooling with very little debt.

In order to graduate with a PsyD or PhD, you will have to complete internship (where you will be competing against PhDs) and in most states, a post doc for licensure. As a funded PhD who has been on practicums, (clinical experience settings) with PsyDs - I have heard that they have had to apply to internship for two rounds, or go to unaccredited ones -- all of which have an attritional impact on your CV, finances and internal resources. In contrast, I have had a relatively 'easy' time getting necessary practicum experiences and invitations to interview. That said, even within a funded PhD program and its benefits, the pressure to complete coursework, publish and develop as a clinician has been crushing, much worse than anything I experienced in finance.

I think with a little patience and elbow grease, you could prepare a competitive application to a funded PhD program, it doesn't have to be Harvard - at least that same application can be used to applied to PsyD programs so why not give yourself that chance?

 

[Brown2002]

I also pursued a doctorate in psychology after 10+ years of working in a different industry (finance). I also got a BA from a top 10 undergraduate institution in an unrelated field. I did this by giving myself a 1.5 years of runway time which I spent taking extension psych courses at reputable universities, volunteering in multiple labs (which yielded 3 rec letters from relatively well-known academics and 1 poster) and by being very strategic about where I applied: funded PhD programs in less attractive geographic locations with higher than average acceptance rates (greater than 2%). While I was prepared to wait 2 rounds of applying, I got a handful of interviews, and two offers the first round and am now near the end of my schooling with very little debt.

Thank you for sharing this. It really helps to hear a story similar to mine.

This entire thread has convinced me 1) to expand my search to include funded PhD programs in addition to reputable PsyD programs, and 2) to take my time with the preparation. Thank you all.

A few very tactical questions:
1) when you say you took extension psych courses at reputable universities, did you attend these in-person on online? I understand the merits of in-person masters programs, but am curious whether doctoral admissions teams review online extension courses unfavorably for pre-requisites.

2) You say you volunteered at multiple labs: curious how many? And as a non-degree student, did you simply reach out to labs at the local AMC? Any advice on best approach to volunteer lab work would be most helpful.

 

[psych_o]

Of course, I rarely respond to these posts but your background is so similar to mine that I wanted to provide some practical encouragement and how-to!

1. I took mostly in-person extension classes and a handful of online ones. I actually don't remember if they were prerequisites (probably), but they were not difficult, I could take 3 at the same time while working full-time. Get A's - it's really to show that you can handle the academics, which of course you can. Take Stats. These classes are extension/evening classes NOT actual, undergrad classes- in NY, you can easily take them at NYU or Columbia. I think because it's COVID - they will be fine with you having taken them online. I really did these to show my seriousness/commitment to admissions committees and I am guessing in only mattered that 1) I took them 2) I got high grades and much less whether they were online. I also felt that my undergraduate institution spoke for itself in terms of my academics and I am guessing it's the same for you.

2. I volunteered at 3 labs. I did exactly that - I found the lab pages, found the lab coordinator (usually a grad student) and told them my background and how I wanted to gain experience. No one ever turned me down. I did evening shifts where I ran participants and attended lab meetings. Working in a lab is important not only because it's an avenue to publications for you but also you will create relationships with grad students already in phd programs whose advice will be invaluable come application season. Writing a very professional cover letter briefly explaining your research interests and attaching your resume should suffice.

Let me know if you have any questions, feel free to DM. Good luck!

 

[Dazen]

Thank you for sharing this. It really helps to hear a story similar to mine.

This entire thread has convinced me 1) to expand my search to include funded PhD programs in addition to reputable PsyD programs, and 2) to take my time with the preparation. Thank you all.

A few very tactical questions:
1) when you say you took extension psych courses at reputable universities, did you attend these in-person on online? I understand the merits of in-person masters programs, but am curious whether doctoral admissions teams review online extension courses unfavorably for pre-requisites.

2) You say you volunteered at multiple labs: curious how many? And as a non-degree student, did you simply reach out to labs at the local AMC? Any advice on best approach to volunteer lab work would be most helpful.

I also came from a different academic background (engineering major then worked in finance - hi @psych_o ). I took classes online before the pandemic and was not penalized for it. I would recommend taking them through a respected brick and mortar institution as a non-degree seeking student, rather than going through an online-only, for-profit school. Generally these transcripts don’t even specify online vs in-person.

Check admissions requirements for programs you might want to apply to because it varies by school. The most common courses are intro to psych, stats, research methods, and abnormal psych, or a certain number of credits (I frequently saw 18). If you get As in these classes and check whatever box the program requires, this shouldn’t be a hurdle in your application.

 

[JeyRo]

If you have 300-400K lying around you can certainly just skip to the unfunded programs that are easier to get into.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Me too came from a different academic background (a degree in Arts from a foreign country and Organizational Psychology in the U.S.). While working full-time, I invested 4 years in attending a research-oriented hybrid postgraduate program at a highly reputable university outside of U.S. to prepare myself for relevant research skills. Although the credits from the research program were not transferred, I was greatly benefited by the education. Feel free to message me privately, and I will be more than happy to answer your questions and process your thoughts if that can be helpful.