Second guessing MD/PhD

[chemgoggles]

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Hey all. I have already submitted AMCAS and a couple of secondaries, then, out of no where, I am having these doubts about MD/PhD. Is it too late? Any advice would be great. I am pretty competitive for MD/PhD--my MCAT is 35 S and I have a 4.0 cumulative GPA--so it's not that I am doubtful of getting in. It's more about whether this is the right decision for me, or not. I know I really like research, and I have some pretty extensive experience with it. On the other hand, I shadow my oncologist and I think I like clinical, based on that experience. I have this feeling that I would rather do clinical than research, but without ever actually working as an MD (obviously) I am not sure about that. Plus, I am very driven and I wonder if I would get bored with MD only after a while. But is MD/PhD worth it? Any advice, old pros?

Thanks

 

[ecoli]

you can always go MD, and do research with that if you decide you like it.

 

[GWD]

Might as well start out MD/PhD if you think that is something you are interested in.

You'll have 2 years of Med School to decide if you want to dive into the PhD portion or pull-out.

It won't behoove you to be indecisive with your AdCom though... I suppose you have some introspection to do.

 

[chemgoggles]

I have considered that. However, I know that with the MD, I would be considerably less competitive for funding. What do you think about the fact that I have already applied MD/PhD? I am pretty confident that is the path for me, but I would feel bad if I was accepted somewhere and then said, oh, just kidding, I only want to do the MD. I don't know if schools even allow an accepted student to change to MD-only, or if I get accepted to MD/PhD, could I just accept the MD?

 

[chemgoggles]

GWD, That's kind of what I have been thinking. I certainly wouldn't present myself as unsure to the committee. Yes, much soul-searching indeed. Biggest decision of my life, you know.

 

[GWD]

MDs are no less competative for funding than MD/PhD, unless you consider that MD/PhDs have formal training in basic science research and thus are able to design better quality investigations.

Your credentials won't come into play (or shouldn't) with reviewers. It's all about the quality of the proposal, and has nothing to do with if you are MD, PhD, or MD/PhD.

As far as "feeling bad" about pulling out of an MD/PhD program: that's cool that you are a nice, considerate individual, but I wouldn't let that effect my decision whatsoever. We are talking about a completely different career path here. I certainly wouldn't let a momentarily guilty conscious radically dictate the rest of my life or doing what was right for my career.

You can ALWAYS pull out of an MD/PhD. Some programs will require you to reimburse them for your first two years of med school if you flake. Before my school went MSTP, they had you sign an agreement to reimburse them if you pulled out because they had been burnt too many times. But you would have been paying for that anyway if you hadn't have gone MD/PhD, so you really have nothing to lose.

Check Neuronix post below... he knows a lot more about how other programs work than I do.

 

[Neuronix]

You can ALWAYS pull out of an MD/PhD. Some programs (I believe if they are NIH funded) will require you to reimburse them for your first two years of med school

If they are not NIH funded. The NIH forbids forcing students to pay back for medical school.

 

[GWD]

If they are not NIH funded. The NIH forbids forcing students to pay back for medical school.

danke.

 

[chemgoggles]

Wow, I would feel really crappy if I got all that funding and then withdrew. I don't think that's an option for me. I will just try to decide before I start getting acceptances, and then I suppose I could tell them I had decided to do MD only, if that's the route I go. Thanks people.

 

[Tally]

Wow, I would feel really crappy if I got all that funding and then withdrew. I don't think that's an option for me. I will just try to decide before I start getting acceptances, and then I suppose I could tell them I had decided to do MD only, if that's the route I go. Thanks people.

Well, one of the reasons that it is virtually unheard of for people to drop Md/PhD programs is because if you don't finish the PhD, you have to pay the tuition back for the first two years of med school outright (plus third and fourth eventually).

 

[Neuronix]

Well, one of the reasons that it is virtually unheard of for people to drop Md/PhD programs is because if you don't finish the PhD, you have to pay the tuition back for the first two years of med school outright (plus third and fourth eventually).

Virtually unheard of? The rate is around 10-15% nationally. I know 2 people in my class of 16 who dropped the PhD. The rest of your statement is untrue for any MSTP as the NIGMS forbids forced repayment.

 

[gbwillner]

Virtually unheard of? The rate is around 10-15% nationally. I know 2 people in my class of 16 who dropped the PhD. The rest of your statement is untrue for any MSTP as the NIGMS forbids forced repayment.

Neuronix, how sure are you about the 10-15% nationally number? Where does this come from? I would have guessed that the number would be significantly higher than that.

 

[Ariodant]

I don't know about national figures, at our school, the drop rate fluctuates greatly from year to year (because the sample is so small). For some year it could be 30%, and it will be 0 for several years. But I'd say an average of 15% seems to be a fair estimation.

 

[Neuronix]

Neuronix, how sure are you about the 10-15% nationally number? Where does this come from? I would have guessed that the number would be significantly higher than that.

Word of mouth. Could be wrong. Why do you think it would be higher? Anyone have the real data?

 

[gbwillner]

Word of mouth. Could be wrong. Why do you think it would be higher? Anyone have the real data?

I doubt programs would want to make that information public. I know of several programs where the attrition rate was more like 50% for a few years. Yes, of course it fluctuates. I think there a some programs that in general have faster turn-around times and people convince themselves to just stick with it despite not really wanting to continue...
Some programs have PhD programs with a relaxed schedule and loose rules about graduation- I would think they have a lower attrition rate. Other programs are pretty damn demanding and probably have a higher rate. Of course I am speculating here.

 

[JHopRevisit]

I know we've discussed this before, but I still think the 16% number is too high, and the 50% number is just stunning, even if it is only for a class or two. If people know their programs drop-out rate, perhaps we could put it together and get an average, but it would probably be best to do it anonymously so it didn't become a competition thing and we could get some answers.

 

[chemgoggles]

You know, I ended up just changing my application type to MD-only. Then I can always apply once I'm in medical school. Most of the schools I have seen allow that. Either way, I can do post-doc in research, etc. I think that's the best path for me.

 

[ecoli]

good luck.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I'm guessing you don't have a full ride the first two years.... Assuming you build up a pretty decent sized debt during MS1 and MS2, would you really consider elcecting to join the program after paying for two years? I know some people would, I'm just wondering what other people have to say. 😛

 

[chemgoggles]

Good question. Obviously I would like to avoid as much debt as possible, that said, I will still be considering MD/PhD. I know people who have taken this path, and they are doing just fine financially--the debt from 2 years of medical school has not been a problem for them. I have to agree with my dad's "do what you love, the money will follow" philosophy. A little idealistic, I know, but I think a little idealism is a good thing.

 

[waterlilly]

Hey Guys! I have similar concerns and I was wondering...if I got MD/PhD acceptances, could I elect to do only the MD before even starting? Will I still be considered for financial aid/scholarship?

 

[BDNF]

Hey Guys! I have similar concerns and I was wondering...if I got MD/PhD acceptances, could I elect to do only the MD before even starting? Will I still be considered for financial aid/scholarship?

Why would you elect to do only the MD? If you are applying MD/PHD, i'm assuming its because that something you want to do.

 

[StIGMA]

To drop out after the free MD

 

[waterlilly]

Yes and no...I'm not sure. I don't mean drop out after getting a year or two of free money...I mean I'll have decided before I commit to something but I'm still wavering...I love research but I just can't imagine myself as a PI. Plus, I want to go into international service work later...sigh.

 

[StIGMA]

Do some soul searching to find the best career path for you. For service maybe consider a PhD is public health?

I do not mean to construe that you would do the MD first for the money, just that programs are arranged (I'm sure this had some influence!) with the PhD integrated in the middle so students do not bail after achieving an MD if they were to do the four years of med school prior to the PhD.