Second look at primary care?

[LuciusVorenus]

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I don't follow your logic. You need stats that say how many of the 350 NPs that were sued had physician oversight - then you could better make such correlations

And its 2011. Where are your stats from 2004-2011? My guess is that the numbers have changed a bit, as you say, as NP as profession grows.

How many practicing physicians are there? How many were sued? How many are in FP? How many of those that were sued were FP....?

It doesn't matter what percentage had physician oversight because the number is way too small. If you want to be really technical with the stats, there's probably very little chance that you'll get any kind of significant information from a population of that size. It doesn't matter though, my point stands and it's a pretty intuitive one. Let me rephrase it and you tell me if you agree or not: As NPs gain more autonomy, liability increases for them and they are more likely to be sued (again, keep in mind that liability is key here, not competency).

There were 661,000 physicians in 2008, and around 12% practiced primary care (30% if you include internal medicine as primary care). 50% of lawsuits were nonsurgical (this is the best I could find). However, I'm willing to wager that more than 0.25% of FPs are sued every year (the rate for NPs as of 2004) 😉.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I'm going to go poop my dog and sleep. :O

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I said that the clinical date doesn't say that NPs have lower patient outcomes when compared to physicians. Which is exactly what I am saying when I say, med school and nursing school are different, however, clinical data shows that there isn't a difference in the outcomes of their patients so it doesn't really matter if they are different. Again, I'm not one of the lemmings who think med school is the best and the only way. Until its proven to be, I wont believe that it is. Until its proven not to be, you wont believe that its not.

Actually, clinical data regarding outcomes is non-existent. That's the point you keep repeatedly missing. There's a lack of outcome data. So it actually makes a big difference that medical training and NP/DNP school are vastly different. None of us have found your "recent HUGE study." So, if you'd like to cite it, that'd be great. All the other existing data doesn't suggest that NP/DNP outcomes = physician outcomes. They look at measures like patient satisfaction and wrongly equate that to good medical care. Interestingly enough, several of the studies funded by the nursing organizations themselves suggest that NPs take longer to reach the same diagnosis that a physician does and that NPs tend to refer out to specialists more often than PCPs do (and thus, costing the system more).

Also, medical school + residency have been time tested over the past century to show that they work. I'm not saying that it's the most efficient (because honestly, we don't have anything else to compare it to), but to suggest that NPs/DNPs who receive less than 10% of the training physicians do are equal to physicians without any evidence to back that up is a little disingenuous. If you don't think so, again I have no clue why you're pursuing a medical education.

So med school is hard, who woulda thought? I bet NP school is a walk in the park. Getting back to training and patient outcomes...

A good portion of NP students seem to work full-time while taking online NP courses. What does that say about the difficulty of NP/DNP school?

 

[Hoody]

Actually, clinical data regarding outcomes is non-existent. That's the point you keep repeatedly missing. There's a lack of outcome data.

While there is a lack of data, there still is some data. And if the difference/outcomes were so grossly different as many of you like to incite that they are, then my guess is that there would be a lot more data. Let me guess, the nurses wont corporate so you cant get any data?

So it actually makes a big difference that medical training and NP/DNP school are vastly different.

How so??

They look at measures like patient satisfaction and wrongly equate that to good medical care. Interestingly enough, several of the studies funded by the nursing organizations themselves suggest that NPs take longer to reach the same diagnosis that a physician does and that NPs tend to refer out to specialists more often than PCPs do (and thus, costing the system more).

Not sure what this has to do with patient outcomes....?

Also, medical school + residency have been time tested over the past century to show that they work. I'm not saying that it's the most efficient (because honestly, we don't have anything else to compare it to), but to suggest that NPs/DNPs who receive less than 10% of the training physicians do are equal to physicians without any evidence to back that up is a little disingenuous. If you don't think so, again I have no clue why you're pursuing a medical education.

Evidence based vs. expert based, my friend. No longer do we do things because its the expert way, or the way its been done in the past.

Besides, you keep twisting my argument. I am not arguing that NPs are equal to MDs, or better, something I've said over and over again. I'm simply talking about people on SDN (yourself included) talking about the training of nurses when they have not a clue (as indicated by their posts). Everything you guys are saying is the complete opposite of what I have experienced in my training and what I was told on my interviews, etc. So who's right? I'll give you a hint....its not you.

Oh, and yes, I would say most definitely and without a doubt in my mind, Taurus is a very insecure and threatened individual.

A good portion of NP students seem to work full-time while taking online NP courses. What does that say about the difficulty of NP/DNP school?

a good portion? what does n=? 2, or 3? Working full time was NOT recommended in any of the programs I interviewed at (unless you went part time) and some even make you sign an agreement saying you wont work over a certain number of hours per month (max was 20) while in school. At several places I was told to expect 60 hour clinical weeks.

I knew a kid who went to medical school and worked full time too. What does that say about the difficulty of med school? Kaushik, I respect you, but stop with the assumptions/generalizations already.

 

[kcin]

Hoody is a perfect example of why guys give in to their wives so often. It's usually better than having her be snippy and annoying all weekend

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

While there is a lack of data, there still is some data. And if the difference/outcomes were so grossly different as many of you like to incite that they are, then my guess is that there would be a lot more data. Let me guess, the nurses wont corporate so you cant get any data?

The problem with the existing body of literature is that the studies are either poorly designed (the Mundinger study in JAMA particularly comes to mind) or aren't sufficiently powered to draw valid conclusions from. Bad data is not better than no data (I would actually argue that it's worse than no data). Many of the studies are also funded by nursing organizations whose agenda is to show that nursing midlevels are equivalent to physicians; perhaps this explains the poor study designs? In addition to that, there isn't any long-term data.

The AAFP seems to be pushing for well-designed studies now, so we might see some results in a few years. I still think it's unlikely that a randomized prospective study will take place since I can't really see informed patients consenting to potentially being randomized into the NP/DNP arm of a study. I actually don't even know if such a study would even get IRB approval.

How so??

Well, since there's insufficient data, the fact that there's a big difference in training is important because we don't know if cutting down training to a fraction of what a physician receives is detrimental to patient care or not. Do you see the problem now?

Evidence based vs. expert based, my friend. No longer do we do things because its the expert way, or the way its been done in the past.

The current gold standard is medical training (the way physicians are currently trained came after the Flexner report was published in the early 1900s). And there isn't convincing evidence that suggests the NP/DNP model is equal/superior to what we currently have. The burden of proof is on those claiming that the NP/DNP training model is as good as/better than what the current gold standard is.

Since you seem to support evidence-based decisions, where's the (good) data suggesting that NP/DNP outcomes are equivalent to that of physicians? Again, I ask that you please cite the study you mentioned earlier because I'm having trouble finding it. Both PubMed and Google didn't show anything. Unless you're referring to the CRNA study? The flaws in that one have already been pointed out.

Besides, you keep twisting my argument. I am not arguing that NPs are equal to MDs, or better, something I've said over and over again. I'm simply talking about people on SDN (yourself included) talking about the training of nurses when they have not a clue (as indicated by their posts). Everything you guys are saying is the complete opposite of what I have experienced in my training and what I was told on my interviews, etc. So who's right? I'll give you a hint....its not you.

Stating that patient outcomes between NPs/DNPs and physicians are the same, which you have done, suggests that nursing midlevels are equal to physicians.

What have I said that's completely different from what you've been told during NP interviews? I've said that the basic science training and clinical hours of training that physicians receive is far greater than what NPs receive. Did the NP schools you interview with say that their basic science training is the same as what physicians receive? Or that they require more than 10000 hours of clinical training? I hope they didn't say something that misleading. I've also stated that the studies in current existence have not been well-designed to answer the question as to whether there's a difference in patient outcomes between NPs/DNPs and physicians. I don't doubt that the NP schools told you otherwise though since even the nursing organizations (ex. AANP, AANA, etc) continually use flawed studies to support their arguments. I've also said that NP/DNP curricula is not standardized and this can be seen by looking at different programs; some emphasize research, some emphasize public health, some emphasize clinical skills, some emphasize business/administration, etc.

Oh, and yes, I would say most definitely and without a doubt in my mind, Taurus is a very insecure and threatened individual.

Doubtful. I think he/she is a radiology resident. And I'm fairly certain that radiology is more protected from NP/DNP encroachment than some other specialties are.

a good portion? what does n=? 2, or 3? Working full time was NOT recommended in any of the programs I interviewed at (unless you went part time) and some even make you sign an agreement saying you wont work over a certain number of hours per month (max was 20) while in school. At several places I was told to expect 60 hour clinical weeks.

I was referring to part-time/online NP programs where it's certainly possible to continue working full-time, at least during the non-clinical portion of the curriculum. Sorry for not being clear.

And, since I can't seem to find hard numbers regarding this, I retract that statement and apologize for making it without proper evidence on hand.

Kaushik, I respect you, but stop with the assumptions/generalizations already.

I appreciate the sentiment but I don't think I've made any gross assumptions/generalizations. I'm actually arguing for evidence rather than assuming that NP/DNP outcomes = physician outcomes when there's insufficient data. The only generalization I've made, due to lack of hard data, is regarding how many NP students work full-time during school and I apologize for that statement.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Would someone do me a huge favor and bump this thread about 3 years from now so Hoody can see it then? That's not to say it isn't ridiculous now, but it'll be SO much better then.

 

[kansaskid]

fixed. for accuracy.

Okay, now I'm pretty sure we are arguing different things at this point...and the OP is MIA (love when they do that).

MIA because I have super irregular internet and as there's a 7 hours time difference between me and most of the US (Peace Corps, West Africa), I was sleeping during the majority of the posting anyway!!

So wow, this was not exactly what I expected when I posted about my reinvigorated interest in primary care! Of course it would turn into a midlevels issue!

I think that a physician is better qualified than a nurse to do primary care. That being said, I think like 90% of the job could easily be done by an NP without any issue at the same level of quality. The "overtraining" that physicians have from med school and beyond ensures that they can handle that mystery 10%. Honestly I think that sums the issue up. It would be nice to see some good evidence supporting a claim of total equality in care, but it doesn't exist yet. If it did, I would absolutely consider it.

Hoody, I actually agree that a lot of docs have a pretty bad attitude when it comes to nurses and that it comes out on SDN every now and again, but you have got to substantiate your arguments, be respectful, and actually listen what people are explaining to you or you are just going to sound ignorant and combative.

 

[Narmerguy]

Kaushik, just let it go man. Let it go. Clearly Hoody is not interested in facts or even in changing anyone's opinion but in protecting her own ideological sense of what NP's are and what the public and the rest of the medical profession should think they are.

Reading her responses might have been the most mentally grating thing I've read on here in a while, and that's when you just have to realize that it's the internetz. Luckily for now, at the end of the day, nurses still largely have to work under doctors regardless of what they do know or think they know.

Hoody is a perfect example of why guys give in to their wives so often. It's usually better than having her be snippy and annoying all weekend

Pretty much where I am at this point. Some people clearly don't care whether they're actually right or wrong.

:troll:

 

[Azmany]

Isn't the average salary of a FP like 110k or something around that? Even assuming a gross amount of debt, 200k, over 15 yrs that is like 1220$/month (assuming my sisters law school loan is typical, which I believe it to be). I don't find that particuarly strapping when the monthly income is near 6k post taxes and such?

 

[Hoody]

Would someone do me a huge favor and bump this thread about 3 years from now so Hoody can see it then? That's not to say it isn't ridiculous now, but it'll be SO much better then.

Its all good Al, I've been a nurse longer than you've been in medical school. But let me guess, you already know waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than me?

Way to earn your ASS reputation, though. 😉

you gonna warn me now?

 

[Hoody]

oh, and **** the kentucky derby and all its loser followers.

 

[eablackwell]

Isn't the average salary of a FP like 110k or something around that? Even assuming a gross amount of debt, 200k, over 15 yrs that is like 1220$/month (assuming my sisters law school loan is typical, which I believe it to be). I don't find that particuarly strapping when the monthly income is near 6k post taxes and such?

I've heard much higher /month amounts flying around on the boards. I went to a loan calculator and put 200,000 in @ 6.8% (I know it's somewhere around there, but forget what it actually is).

10 yr payoff) $2,301 monthly payment : 76,192.62 interest paid

15 yr payoff) $1,775.37 monthly payment: 119,565.92 interest paid

20 yr payoff) $1,526.68 monthly payment: 166,402.72 interest paid


110k income... This puts you in about a 28% income tax bracket if I remember right.

110k x .72 = $79,200 take home / 12 months = $6,600 take home a month

10 year payoff monthly take home after loan) 6,600 - 2,301 = $4,299/ month

15 year payoff monthly take home after loan) 6,600 - 1,776 = $4,823/month

20 year payoff monthly take home after loan) 6,600 - 1,527 = $5,073/month

As a 3rd year teacher I bring home about 3k a month.

I think the point is the above is not what you think about as ideal when people say "Oh, they're pulling down doctor money!" or something like that.

People tend to see incomes as the above as a slap in the face, even though a family can easily get by on the income (of course this depends on where you live).

Medicine is all about delayed rewards. Getting your full income without loan payments bogging you down is one of those LONG term rewards. Also, note that in the above I did not include the interest build up if one defers during residency. I think I remember something changing to where you can't defer anymore, but I could be wrong (I'm wrong a lot 😛 ).

Also, I am not trying to knock FP or any kind of primary care. I am personally interested in peds, so it's not like I'm out for a big paycheck. My income, debt, and payments are likely to look a lot like the above. 😱

 

[justaregularmed]

Its all good Al, I've been a nurse longer than you've been in medical school. But let me guess, you already know waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than me?

Way to earn your ASS reputation, though. 😉

you gonna warn me now?

I don't know what degree you currently hold or how long you've been out of school, but I've had the distinct pleasure of training with NP's from 3 different schools.

I've never met one that wasn't frighteningly incompetent (in some fashion). Sure my sample size is small but one NP who was in the last quarter of her program didn't seem to know how to take a history or physical. Just a few months before getting let loose on the world to practice independently in how many states now?

Yep, lets leave our primary care to people who don't know how to give...primary care.

 

[Azmany]

I've heard much higher /month amounts flying around on the boards. I went to a loan calculator and put 200,000 in @ 6.8% (I know it's somewhere around there, but forget what it actually is).

15 yr payoff) $1,775.37 monthly payment: 119,565.92 interest paid



110k income... This puts you in about a 28% income tax bracket if I remember right.

110k x .72 = $79,200 take home / 12 months = $6,600 take home a month

10 year payoff monthly take home after loan) 6,600 - 2,301 = $4,299/ month

15 year payoff monthly take home after loan) 6,600 - 1,776 = $4,823/month

20 year payoff monthly take home after loan) 6,600 - 1,527 = $5,073/month

As a 3rd year teacher I bring home about 3k a month.

I think the point is the above is not what you think about as ideal when people say "Oh, they're pulling down doctor money!" or something like that.

People tend to see incomes as the above as a slap in the face, even though a family can easily get by on the income (of course this depends on where you live).

Hmmm, perhaps her interest rate is lower than that, but I thought she just had a generic Fed + graduate loan. Either way the figures are moderately similar.

So it is more of a proportional matter, than an actual concern that FP's don't make enough money to live? I just feel that 4800/month is a lot of money, for any occupation. I mean as you said a teacher makes about 3k, so a FP makes over one and half times that. And a teacher certainly plays an important role in society as well.

Is malpractice insurance something that is significant in PC?

That was a thorough response EAblackwell, thanks!

 

[Azmany]

double post

 

[Dr McSexy]

Hmmm, perhaps her interest rate is lower than that, but I thought she just had a generic Fed + graduate loan. Either way the figures are moderately similar.

So it is more of a proportional matter, than an actual concern that FP's don't make enough money to live? I just feel that 4800/month is a lot of money, for any occupation. I mean as you said a teacher makes about 3k, so a FP makes over one and half times that. And a teacher certainly plays an important role in society as well.
!

Teachers also start earning money earlier, have essentially 4-8 weeks of vacation, many enjoy extra non-salaried benefits such as healthcare and pension plans, and many teachers recycle lesson plans year after year. In addition, you waste away the "good" youthful years pursuing this job, only to make 1.5 times what a teacher makes.

I guess many a doctor are bitter about that or have an entitlement mentality about it. But the point about the delayed rewards is very true and it more than equals out in the long run.

 

[eablackwell]

I don't know what degree you currently hold or how long you've been out of school, but I've had the distinct pleasure of training with NP's from 3 different schools.

I've never met one that wasn't frighteningly incompetent (in some fashion). Sure my sample size is small but one NP who was in the last quarter of her program didn't seem to know how to take a history or physical..

I've met both ends of the spectrum. I currently see a NP that is awesome (she works closely with my PCP and I often book with her for ease of appts). However, I've had HORRIBLE experiences with NPs at urgent care facilities. I burned my knee once, went to urgent care, and the NP diagnosed me with shingles 😵. It was 1 blister, from a burn... She also then told me not to bother seeking any other medical care, because shingles will just take care of itself.

Another time, different NP at an urgent care clinic, and she spent about 20 min telling me about how she found Jesus and it brought her into the medical profession. I still have no idea what was wrong with me at the time. I just ended up getting better over time.

Of course, these are wild cases, and as I said, I go to a NP right now. I have nothing against them, but of course there are incompetent ones out there. There's incompetence in every profession in one way shape or form.

I think this is an extremely complex issue, that can't be solved by generalizing either way. 😏

 

[loveoforganic]

Hoody, "nurse practitioner physician outcome equivalence" for just the year 2011 produces over 300 articles in scholar. Unless you can narrow down what the article was actually about, I think it's fair to say it probably doesn't exist.

As far as medical training, I feel there are probably many inefficiencies that could be eliminated, but I think granting a tremendously less trained provider independent practice is jumping the gun for increasing access to care. Start from where you are and work down. Med schools are experimenting with cutting 4th year for future pcp's. Great. Let's see how they do first.

 

[Hoody]

I don't know what degree you currently hold or how long you've been out of school, but I've had the distinct pleasure of training with NP's from 3 different schools.

ooooohhhhhhh, you talked to 3 whole NP's?? 3???? wow!

I've never met one that wasn't frighteningly incompetent (in some fashion). Sure my sample size is small but one NP who was in the last quarter of her program didn't seem to know how to take a history or physical.

Nice try. We learn that **** in undergrad. So yeah, I could pwn you at a physical and history with just my BSN...oh, and ADN's also learn it. So they could too, pwn you with their two year degree. BAM! how does that feel?

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

ooooohhhhhhh, you talked to 3 whole NP's?? 3???? wow!

Nice try. We learn that **** in undergrad. So yeah, I could pwn you at a physical and history with just my BSN...oh, and ADN's also learn it. So they could too, pwn you with their two year degree. BAM! how does that feel?

it feels like it doesn't matter, and that i'll learn the necessary skills in med school.

 

[Hoody]

it feels like it doesn't matter, and that i'll learn the necessary skills in med school.

and since you learn it in med school, it will make your history and physical taking skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else who did not learn it in doctoring 101. 😉

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

and since you learn it in med school, it will make your history and physical taking skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else who did not learn it in doctoring 101. 😉

your words, not mine.

 

[Hoody]

your words, my attitude.

fixed, for accuracy. 🙂


its too bad you people can't handle a good debate. most of you all act like you fall down and get a boo boo on your knee, crying like a 2 year old tot. buck the heck up, already.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

fixed, for accuracy. 🙂


its too bad you people can't handle a good debate. most of you all act like you fall down and get a boo boo on your knee, crying like a 2 year old tot. buck the heck up, already.

whatever you say, since you've repeatedly demonstrated you don't listen to what anyone has to say, even if they provide evidence and reason.

 

[Hoody]

whatever you say, since you've repeatedly demonstrated you don't listen to what anyone has to say, even if they provide evidence and reason.

....right. I guess I missed your constructive post, I only saw the one where you were trying to be funny funny haha like usual. hehe, good one Cliff, ROTFLMAO!!!!

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

....right. I guess I missed your constructive post, I only saw the one where you were trying to be funny funny haha like usual. hehe, good one Cliff, ROTFLMAO!!!!

i wasn't trying to be funny. i was proving a point that it doesn't matter if a nurse can do a physical and history better than me (or the kid you were originally attacking) at this point, that should be the case.

why are you going into medicine again if you're so gung-ho for nurses? oh wait..."cause i cant do transplants as a nurse... derrrrrrrrrpppppppppp"

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

C'mon guys. Let's try to keep it civil without resorting to flinging insults at each other.

 

[Endolas]

I've never seen anyone more pathetic than Hoody.

So pathetic.

 

[link2swim06]

I will give you a reason why FP doctors are going to be better.....they are on average smarter and more intelligent, there I said it.

Are there many nurses which are smarter than the average doctor? Absolutely.

BUT on average, your run of the mill doctor is going to have a higher IQ than that of a nurse.

Now while I cant quote a study saying a higher IQ is linked with a better patient outcome, I'd sure bet money on it.

I am not attacking you nor nurses...you could very well become a better NP than many FP docs, i am just speaking about statistics.

 

[kcin]

and since you learn it in med school, it will make your history and physical taking skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else who did not learn it in doctoring 101. 😉

This coming from the person that knows everything about med school because she slept with a doctor. You so pro, bro.

 

[Hoody]

I will give you a reason why FP doctors are going to be better.....they are on average smarter and more intelligent, there I said it.

Are there many nurses which are smarter than the average doctor? Absolutely.

BUT on average, your run of the mill doctor is going to have a higher IQ than that of a nurse.

Now while I cant quote a study saying a higher IQ is linked with a better patient outcome, I'd sure bet money on it.

I am not attacking you nor nurses...you could very well become a better NP than many FP docs, i am just speaking about statistics.

what does IQ have to do with how nurses are trained (which was my original argument, that SDN'ers have not a clue how they really are trained, just generalizations and assumptions)? And what does IQ have to do with patient outcomes? So what if your doctor has on average, a higher IQ than a nurse? Does higher IQ = better patient outcomes?

I've never seen anyone more pathetic than Hoody.

So pathetic.

The only thing I ever saw that was more pathetic was your post. Nice contribution. Do you feel better now? Good boy! 👍

why are you going into medicine again if you're so gung-ho for nurses? oh wait..."cause i cant do transplants as a nurse... derrrrrrrrrpppppppppp"

Right. Another SDN'er who can't comprehend that someone can stand for the truth about nurses yet still be interested in medicine. OMFG!!!! PANIC!!!! APCOLYPSE!!!

Keep on your high horse, cliff. You do good thinking up there. 🙄

 

[FIREitUP]

I stopped reading hoody's responses after she said medical school isn't standardized. I suggest you guys do the same.

 

[Hoody]

This coming from the person that knows everything about med school because she slept with a doctor. You so pro, bro.

And just out of curiosity, how is it that you know so much about nurses and nursing school?? Oh you don't? but you still post anyway? Good work, man. You's so smart!! 👍


me > you. 🙂

 

[Hoody]

I stopped reading hoody's responses after she said medical school isn't standardized. I suggest you guys do the same.

Guess you missed the part where I said in the "traditional" sense of the word.

More reading comprehension fail. So, getting back to the MCAT and you getting into med school......how's that going for ya? 🙂

 

[Bacchus]

Let's all simmer down. No one has to kill anyone or make anyone cry to have a debate.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Are you like this in real life 🙁

 

[LuciusVorenus]

...well that explains why are so gosh darn informed bout everything. you were saying...?

prove me wrong, yo.

now that would be real funny...watching all you SDN'ers crap your pants when you find how overtained you are.

MD: the best way, the right way, the only way!!

...tough subjects we are tackling today.

um, yeah, sure, whatever you say......

ha, please. like all of SDN isn't overly emotional?

and sometimes you have to be a bitch to get your point across. Just like one of the attendings around here said you have to be a dick sometimes to get the nurses to listen.

peace out. 👍


oh, and thanks for the two post contribution. good work tonight!



Oh wait, make it three posts!

So who's right? I'll give you a hint....its not you.

Its all good Al, I've been a nurse longer than you've been in medical school. But let me guess, you already know waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than me?

Way to earn your ASS reputation, though. 😉

ooooohhhhhhh, you talked to 3 whole NP's?? 3???? wow!

and since you learn it in med school, it will make your history and physical taking skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else who did not learn it in doctoring 101. 😉

its too bad you people can't handle a good debate. most of you all act like you fall down and get a boo boo on your knee, crying like a 2 year old tot. buck the heck up, already.

....right. I guess I missed your constructive post, I only saw the one where you were trying to be funny funny haha like usual. hehe, good one Cliff, ROTFLMAO!!!! :

The only thing I ever saw that was more pathetic was your post. Nice contribution. Do you feel better now? Good boy!

Right. Another SDN'er who can't comprehend that someone can stand for the truth about nurses yet still be interested in medicine. OMFG!!!! PANIC!!!! APCOLYPSE!!!

Keep on your high horse, cliff. You do good thinking up there. 🙄

And just out of curiosity, how is it that you know so much about nurses and nursing school?? Oh you don't? but you still post anyway? Good work, man. You's so smart!! 👍


me > you. 🙂

Guess you missed the part where I said in the "traditional" sense of the word.

More reading comprehension fail. So, getting back to the MCAT and you getting into med school......how's that going for ya?

You don't think you come off as a WEE bit impossible?

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Let's all relax with the insults. Otherwise, this thread it probably going to get closed with the way things are going.

If you don't have something nice to say, the easiest thing to do is to not respond at all. If someone's posts are really bugging you, you can add them to your ignore list.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Haha go ahead and close the thread...although you'd ruin our fun at laughing at poor old Hoody on here

 

[cbrons]

Why argue about the DNP? The DNP will be required for all advanced practice nursing programs in a few years time. It will not give the recipient any more practice rights than they currently have... it's basically another way for schools to rip off ignorant people who think there is a short-cut to practicing medicine autonomously.

A lot of these programs are offered online (that's a scream). I'm sure there will be people excited to pursue this route [As P.T. Barnum once said, "There is a sucker born every minute." 🙄] but if I wasn't going to medical school and I wanted to still be in a peripherally related field, I'd without question choose the smarter PA route.

A lot of NPs think the shift to the so-called DNP is a foolish waste but the facile leadership within the nursing lobby doesn't care what the mere masters-level "peons" think. It will cost more money and take more time (with coursework that doesn't justify the time commitment). I personally believe the PA route will lead to the ultimate irrelevancy of the DNP.

 

[Endolas]

The only thing I ever saw that was more pathetic was your post. Nice contribution. Do you feel better now? Good boy! 👍

That's some razor wit you got there.

 

[kcin]

That's some razor wit you got there.

It's like being insulted by a third grader.

 

[CougarMD]

We welcome healthy debate on SDN, but personally attacking other users is unacceptable. Please treat everyone with respect even though you are debating.

Thread Closed.