Seeking Advice: BS/MD vs T20 Undergrad

[sliceofsupreme]

Hey guys, I was recently admitted to both Rice University and the Stony Brook BS/MD Scholars For Medicine program. I have made a pros and cons list for the two schools below:

Rice (undergrad)
Pros:

• Close to home: strong support system with family and friends
• Strong connections with some research professors and doctors from the Texas Med Center (can continue my research in the lab from HS)
• Strong community and support system at Rice (highly collaborative; know a lot of upperclassmen and Rice grads)
• Close proximity to Texas Medical Center
• Excellent reputation for Texas med schools (TMDSAS in-state TX resident advantage)
• Better overall college experience?

Cons:

• Must go through traditional pre-med route (maintain high GPA, MCAT, ECs, etc)
• Cost: 45k annually (when compared to Stony Brook)
• Uncertainty of handling Rice's academic rigor (basically working harder/more stress)

Stony Brook BS/MD
Pros:

• Full tuition scholarship for undergrad: 20k annually (less undergrad debt)
• Conditional acceptance into med school
• Low stress (maintain a 3.4 min. GPA and min. MCAT)
• More time to focus on hobbies/research (maybe a co-authored publication?)
• Earlier start/motivation to do med-related activities for personal interest instead of for "pre-med requirements/ECs"

Cons:

• Lower ranked undergrad school at #91
• Community setting (heard SBU is a large commuter school)
• Location (never been to that side of NY)
• Commitment to the same location for the next 8 years
• Consideration of applying to other medical schools at the end of undergrad (especially with TX in-state med schools having super low tuition)
• Losing the traditional college experience??

*** I know I want to become a physician due to my extensive medical experiences in high school, but I also feel like I may be sacrificing something else in return by committing to a BS/MD. Thank you guys so much for your time! I just want to hear people's thoughts, especially for those who decided to undergo the BS/MD route.

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[Schwifty]

Do the Stony Brook BS/MD, cheaper and less stress of applying to med school

 

[sliceofsupreme]

Do the Stony Brook BS/MD, cheaper and less stress of applying to med school

Thanks! Do you have any impressions about Stony Brook Med or their undergraduate community?

 

[Schwifty]

Thanks! Do you have any impressions about Stony Brook Med or their undergraduate community?

Not really, but saving that much money and having a conditional MD acceptance makes it the better choice (imo). Just curious, what is the MCAT requirement?

 

[sliceofsupreme]

Not really, but saving that much money and having a conditional MD acceptance makes it the better choice (imo). Just curious, what is the MCAT requirement?

The MCAT requirement is a 507. Regular admissions to Stony Brook Med would hover around a 513-514.

 

[Schwifty]

The MCAT requirement is a 507. Regular admissions to Stony Brook Med would hover around a 513-514.

Ya that’s an awesome deal

 

[KnightDoc]

The MCAT requirement is a 507. Regular admissions to Stony Brook Med would hover around a 513-514.

The answer is the same as it was last week!!! -- it all depends on your risk aversion. Stony Brook is clearly not your first choice for either UG or med school, and it's not nearly as prestigious as Rice (or many med schools, for that matter!), but it is a bird in the hand!!

My personal feeling is that, with few exceptions like Northwestern, BS/MD programs are kind of scammy insofar as they attract very high stat risk averse applicants (and their parents!!!) to UGs they would never otherwise consider with the guarantee of a med school admission that they would more likely than not achieve through the regular path. It is true that only 40% of all applicants are admitted each year, but that number is far higher (although not 100%) for applicants with the profile of those admitted to the BS/MD programs.

Ultimately, strangers on the Internet cannot tell you what to do. You know the pros and cons very well. Only you can know if the guarantee is worth the price. As you know, it is not free.

 

[enchantments]

It's not a binding requirement that you attend Stony Brook's MD program if you attend the BS/MD, right? As in, you could still apply to other schools even if you had that conditional acceptance? Or would you have to waive the acceptance if you decided to apply to other schools through AMCAS?

 

[sliceofsupreme]

The answer is the same as it was last week!!! -- it all depends on your risk aversion. Stony Brook is clearly not your first choice for either UG or med school, and it's not nearly as prestigious as Rice (or many med schools, for that matter!), but it is a bird in the hand!!

My personal feeling is that, with few exceptions like Northwestern, BS/MD programs are kind of scammy insofar as they attract very high stat risk averse applicants (and their parents!!!) to UGs they would never otherwise consider with the guarantee of a med school admission that they would more likely than not achieve through the regular path. It is true that only 40% of all applicants are admitted each year, but that number is far higher (although not 100%) for applicants with the profile of those admitted to the BS/MD programs.

Ultimately, strangers on the Internet cannot tell you what to do. You know the pros and cons very well. Only you can know if the guarantee is worth the price. As you know, it is not free.

Thanks! Have you had any personal experience with BS/MD programs previously? Also, I think that's the whole function for most BS/MD programs in the US; no one knows what path they may have to encounter after 4 years, so people are willing to take the guarantee. Personally, I'm not sure, especially being a TX resident (TMDSAS).

 

[sliceofsupreme]

It's not a binding requirement that you attend Stony Brook's MD program if you attend the BS/MD, right? As in, you could still apply to other schools even if you had that conditional acceptance? Or would you have to waive the acceptance if you decided to apply to other schools through AMCAS?

I've been searching around for that information on their website or acceptance email, but I'm not too sure. I'll definitely look to find out; granted, I think that still having a medical seat would be a very nice addition.

 

[KnightDoc]

It's not a binding requirement that you attend Stony Brook's MD program if you attend the BS/MD, right? As in, you could still apply to other schools even if you had that conditional acceptance? Or would you have to waive the acceptance if you decided to apply to other schools through AMCAS?

I don't have first hand knowledge about Stony Brook, but most of them do indeed require you to give up the guarantee in order to apply out. You can still apply regular way, and, technically, you are not waiving an acceptance because you don't have one until it is time to apply to the med school. You have a "conditional" acceptance which requires you to meet all program requirements (MCAT, GPA, course work, ECs, etc.), and you don't get the actual acceptance until the cycle into which you'd be admitted.

 

[enchantments]

I've been searching around for that information on their website or acceptance email, but I'm not too sure. I'll definitely look to find out; granted, I think that still having a medical seat would be a very nice addition.

Yeah I think that would definitely have an impact on your decision. Say if you could apply to other schools with that conditional acceptance in hand, I think the choice would be pretty clear. Many students from "low-ranked" schools still manage to make their applications competitive enough for upper-tier schools. Granted, you would have more resources/networking at a T20, but at Stony Brook you would likely end up being a big fish in a little pond, so to speak.

With that being said, in my personal opinion, a student that's driven enough to gain acceptances to both a T20 undergrad and BS/MD sounds more than competent to gain at least an acceptance to a mid-tier MD, but obviously nothing's guaranteed in life. I've seen a fair amount of people who flunked through HS that ended up excelling in college, and vice versa.

I think at the end of the day, as @KnightDoc says, it's up to how risk adverse you want to be. If I were forced to, my bet would be that you would end up being the type of student that could gain an acceptance to a mid-upper tier school. But a conditional acceptance with relatively low requirements to an MD program, regardless of rank, is something a lot of students would kill for, and who knows how the competition will be 3 years from now.

 

[KnightDoc]

Thanks! Have you had any personal experience with BS/MD programs previously? Also, I think that's the whole function for most BS/MD programs in the US; no one knows what path they may have to encounter after 4 years, so people are willing to take the guarantee. Personally, I'm not sure, especially being a TX resident (TMDSAS).

No doubt. The reason I think it's a little scammy is that it's kind of like a bank only lending money to people who can show they don't need it. These programs tend not to accept the type of candidates who could really benefit from the guarantee. Instead, they prey on the insecurity of people who are far more likely than average to gain acceptance to a peer (or better) med school the regular way. But it is still a guarantee, and that does have a lot of value, but not if it means going to a UG or med school you wouldn't be happy at just for the sake of having a guarantee at age 17 or 18.

Again, honestly, you know the pros and cons, so hearing people repeat them for you shouldn't drive a decision. Only you (and your family) know what you want, what would make you happy, and how much potential upside you are willing to give up in return for a conditional acceptance now.

 

[KnightDoc]

Thanks! Have you had any personal experience with BS/MD programs previously? Also, I think that's the whole function for most BS/MD programs in the US; no one knows what path they may have to encounter after 4 years, so people are willing to take the guarantee. Personally, I'm not sure, especially being a TX resident (TMDSAS).

Not really -- the limit of my personal experience was looking at them and realizing: (i) I didn't have the ECs in high school to be competitive: and (ii) they are a little scammy, I'd never get into a program like Northwestern's, and I had no interest in limiting myself to one school as a high school senior that I'd never have an interest in but for the guarantee.

I might live to regret it, but, honestly, I didn't have the decision you do because I wasn't driven since freshman year in high school, so I probably would not have gotten in to a BS/MD even if I tried. I had the stats, but not the ECs, and I had no interest in pursuing them in high school, certainly not before senior year.

 

[platypusrex]

I would definitely recommend the stony brook scholars for medicine program! Stony brook isn't a top 10 school, but you'll still get a great education with tons of research and clinical opportunities. I know someone who's currently in the program and he was the chillest guy I knew. He didn't have to scramble for extracurriculars or grade grub. I believe the requirements to stay in the program are a 3.4/507, which would honestly allow you to lead an extremely happy four years. I also do want to say that nothing is guaranteed in medical school admissions. I have two friends with 3.8+ 515+ who did not get into an MD school. You'll do well wherever you go, but if you want peace of mind, this is a great route.

 

[sliceofsupreme]

I would definitely recommend the stony brook scholars for medicine program! Stony brook isn't a top 10 school, but you'll still get a great education with tons of research and clinical opportunities. I know someone who's currently in the program and he was the chillest guy I knew. He didn't have to scramble for extracurriculars or grade grub. I believe the requirements to stay in the program are a 3.4/507, which would honestly allow you to lead an extremely happy four years. I also do want to say that nothing is guaranteed in medical school admissions. I have two friends with 3.8+ 515+ who did not get into an MD school. You'll do well wherever you go, but if you want peace of mind, this is a great route.

Thank you so much your insight! How did he think about the community there at Stony Brook (undergrad) and his medical school trajectory? Was he ever given the option/considered to apply out from the program (either for location/prestige reasons)?

 

[TAVR4life]

Definitely take the BS/MD. Rice while a great top 20 institution doesn’t have the brand factor that would warrant choosing it over a guaranteed MD spot. The MD spot is your golden ticket.

 

[platypusrex]

Thank you so much your insight! How did he think about the community there at Stony Brook (undergrad) and his medical school trajectory? Was he ever given the option/considered to apply out from the program (either for location/prestige reasons)?

My friends who go to stony brook all seem to like it! I will say though that the cs majors were not happy people, but I assume you won't be going for a cs major. I am not sure about the mechanics of applying out since my friend never considered it. He was born and raised in the area, so it really was the perfect program for him. Also, he focused more on extracurriculars than grades, so I can't say if he would have gotten into a significantly higher ranked school. I feel like the one concern you may have coming from Texas is where you want to match for residency. Stony brook has an amazing match list, but I don't know how well they match in Texas!

 

[Scully 2020]

@sliceofsupreme - I have been accepted to the BSMD program as well. I live in NJ. This discussion is very helpful. Based on others I have spoken to, it seems like SB SOM is a very good with great research opportunities. Residency matches seem really good as well.

 

[breeland]

unpopular opinion but I'd go against BS/MD because it's not 100%- you still have to take the mcat regardless and since the step 1 is changing school prestige might start to matter more.

i have friends who got into the BS/MD and either didn't meet the mcat requirement (got 1-2 points lower) and now have to go to DO school because they did no activities in undergrad, and i have friends who did insanely well on the mcat (t10 material) but are stuck with their program and can't aim higher bc they did no activities.

on the other hand, i also have a friend who decided against BS/MD programs he got into and went to JHU for undergrad instead. for med schools this cycle he ended up getting into penn with a full ride, harvard, nyu, hopkins, etc.

if you're smart enough to get into the BS/MD, you can do better and have way more potential than SBU, a ~#70ish school.

idk just my two cents.

 

[TAVR4life]

unpopular opinion but I'd go against BS/MD because it's not 100%- you still have to take the mcat regardless and since the step 1 is changing school prestige might start to matter more.

i have friends who got into the BS/MD and either didn't meet the mcat requirement (got 1-2 points lower) and now have to go to DO school because they did no activities in undergrad, and i have friends who did insanely well on the mcat (t10 material) but are stuck with their program and can't aim higher bc they did no activities.

on the other hand, i also have a friend who decided against BS/MD programs he got into and went to JHU for undergrad instead. for med schools this cycle he ended up getting into penn with a full ride, harvard, nyu, hopkins, etc.

if you're smart enough to get into the BS/MD, you can do better and have way more potential than SBU, a ~#70ish school.

idk just my two cents.

The bigger risk is with the top 20 undergrad since most of the science classes are purposefully designed to weed out a significant proportion of the premed students. Not everyone who comes in as pre-med at a top 20 gets to become a doctor. Getting a top MCAT score is the next big hurdle where students can get weeded out despite decent GPAs.

The anecdotes you gave about friends getting lower MCAT scores, well that would have been an issue even if they weren’t in a guaranteed program. And the ones who did really well can still apply out even with a guaranted spot. Just stay involved in on-campus activities if you’re thinking about doing that.

I’d stick with the guaranteed spot if the alternative is Rice, you really have to mess up for them to revoke it. And if you end up doing really well GPA wise and MCAT just apply out to other medical schools.

 

[KnightDoc]

The bigger risk is with the top 20 undergrad since most of the science classes are purposefully designed to weed out a significant proportion of the premed students. Not everyone who comes in as pre-med at a top 20 gets to become a doctor. Getting a top MCAT score is the next big hurdle where students can get weeded out despite decent GPAs.

The anecdotes you gave about friends getting lower MCAT scores, well that would have been an issue even if they weren’t in a guaranteed program. And the ones who did really well can still apply out even with a guaranted spot. Just stay involved in on-campus activities if you’re thinking about doing that.

I’d stick with the guaranteed spot if the alternative is Rice, you really have to mess up for them to revoke it. And if you end up doing really well GPA wise and MCAT just apply out to other medical schools.

You are, of course, correct about competition being more intense at T20 -- that's why you get a boost with adcoms coming from them, assuming you successfully navigate that gauntlet. It should go without saying that not everyone, everywhere, who enters as a pre-med gets to go to med school -- that phenomenon is not limited to T20.

What you seem not to realize, however, is that most (not all) BS/MD programs force you to relinquish your guarantee if you want to apply out. So most people in these programs really cannot have their cake and eat it too. I am pretty sure @callitwhatyouwant's point is not that low MCAT scores are not problematic for anyone applying to med school, but rather, that BS/MD programs lull their participants into a complacency and false sense of security that leaves them screwed if they later want to apply out, although I certainly cannot speak for him/her.

 

[TAVR4life]

You are, of course, correct about competition being more intense at T20 -- that's why you get a boost with adcoms coming from them, assuming you successfully navigate that gauntlet. It should go without saying that not everyone, everywhere, who enters as a pre-med gets to go to med school -- that phenomenon is limited to T20.

What you seem not to realize, however, is that most (not all) BS/MD programs force you to relinquish your guarantee if you want to apply out. So most people in these programs really cannot have their cake and eat it too. I am pretty sure @callitwhatyouwant's point is not that low MCAT scores are not problematic for anyone applying to med school, but rather, that BS/MD programs lull their participants into a complacency and false sense of security that leaves them screwed if they later want to apply out, although I certainly cannot speak for him/her.

Yes the phenomenon of course is not limited to T20s, the comparison right now is between a T20 and a BS/MD program hence the focus on that. At BS/MD programs the GPA and MCAT cut off scores tend to be significantly lower than what is needed to get into a US medical school so there is a safety net there that makes it harder to get weeded out (of course you can still get weeded out if you fall below those low cut-offs).

And if you do so well GPA-wise and on the MCAT that you're competitive to a top medical school then go ahead and relinquish the guarantee at that time but at the very least you're going into this with a guaranteed spot to fall back on if your GPA and MCAT score do not end up being competitive. You would not be competitive at even lower tier MD programs with a 3.4 GPA and a minimum MCAT score as required by the BS/MD program.

Getting into a US medical school is NOT easy---a lot of hurdles purposefully designed to weed out people. Not worth taking the risk for Rice (great institution but the risk benefit ratio doesn't add up especially when you add in the full tuition scholarship for the BS/MD program)

 

[breeland]

Yes the phenomenon of course is not limited to T20s, the comparison right now is between a T20 and a BS/MD program hence the focus on that. At BS/MD programs the GPA and MCAT cut off scores tend to be significantly lower than what is needed to get into a US medical school so there is a safety net there that makes it harder to get weeded out (of course you can still get weeded out if you fall below those low cut-offs).

And if you do so well GPA-wise and on the MCAT that you're competitive to a top medical school then go ahead and relinquish the guarantee at that time but at the very least you're going into this with a guaranteed spot to fall back on if your GPA and MCAT score do not end up being competitive. You would not be competitive at even lower tier MD programs with a 3.4 GPA and a minimum MCAT score as required by the BS/MD program.

Getting into a US medical school is NOT easy---a lot of hurdles purposefully designed to weed out people. Not worth taking the risk for Rice (great institution but the risk benefit ratio doesn't add up especially when you add in the full tuition scholarship for the BS/MD program)

If someone is motivated enough to do a ton of activities and try their hardest while being in the program then I guess it wouldn't matter.

but honestly, from the dozens of people I've known who attended these programs, most people naturally lose that motivation to do their absolute best with the false sense of security/guaranteed assurance, whereas attending school without the program is more likely to bring out the best in them because they know they have to put in the effort to succeed.

also, if you got into a BS/MD program, you probably won't be the type of person who is weeded out by difficult classes, considering to even get into BS/MD you've probably gotten 5s on all your difficult AP science exams

 

[sliceofsupreme]

Yes the phenomenon of course is not limited to T20s, the comparison right now is between a T20 and a BS/MD program hence the focus on that. At BS/MD programs the GPA and MCAT cut off scores tend to be significantly lower than what is needed to get into a US medical school so there is a safety net there that makes it harder to get weeded out (of course you can still get weeded out if you fall below those low cut-offs).

And if you do so well GPA-wise and on the MCAT that you're competitive to a top medical school then go ahead and relinquish the guarantee at that time but at the very least you're going into this with a guaranteed spot to fall back on if your GPA and MCAT score do not end up being competitive. You would not be competitive at even lower tier MD programs with a 3.4 GPA and a minimum MCAT score as required by the BS/MD program.

Getting into a US medical school is NOT easy---a lot of hurdles purposefully designed to weed out people. Not worth taking the risk for Rice (great institution but the risk benefit ratio doesn't add up especially when you add in the full tuition scholarship for the BS/MD program)

Agreed. BS/MD may breed "complacency" per se, but work ethic is different for various people. Having that opportunity to know as an 18 year old that one can be accepted to medical school already--without the enormous hurdles of regular pre-med--is a stress reliever. With 8 year programs, one can even apply out in 4 years (if needed), especially with little to no undergrad debt. Not sure about retaining a medical seat while applying out, but that's an issue for a few years from now.

 

[sliceofsupreme]

unpopular opinion but I'd go against BS/MD because it's not 100%- you still have to take the mcat regardless and since the step 1 is changing school prestige might start to matter more.

i have friends who got into the BS/MD and either didn't meet the mcat requirement (got 1-2 points lower) and now have to go to DO school because they did no activities in undergrad, and i have friends who did insanely well on the mcat (t10 material) but are stuck with their program and can't aim higher bc they did no activities.

on the other hand, i also have a friend who decided against BS/MD programs he got into and went to JHU for undergrad instead. for med schools this cycle he ended up getting into penn with a full ride, harvard, nyu, hopkins, etc.

if you're smart enough to get into the BS/MD, you can do better and have way more potential than SBU, a ~#70ish school.

idk just my two cents.

SBU is a T50/60 medical school. It has a really good residency match list in comparison to a lot of its peer medical schools. I have a friend going to JHU this upcoming fall, but it is still no guarantee that one can get into medical school (especially with high competition and weed-out courses). Thank you for your insight, though.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I did the state school bs/md over an Ivy League. Best decision I ever made. You do have to waive your ability to apply elsewhere; you can apply, but then your spot is forfeit. Stony brook is a great school. For me this is a no brainer.

 

[Icositetrachoron]

I also did a state school BS/MD. Can confirm, best decision I ever made. I have many Rice students in my medical class now---we ended up in the same place, albeit I had much more flexibility in my academic pursuits and markedly less stress. Take the Stony Brook.

I'm gonna go on a mildly philosophical spiel here:

The gift of the BS/MD is not the capacity to slack off---it's to go out and do things that premeds don't typically do. Go and study things that aren't stereotypically medicine-related. Take advantage of the guarantee to study the arts, the humanities, philosophy, policy, etc. in addition to your premed curriculum. As a BS/MD student, you are uniquely gifted with the capacity to expand the frontier of medicine in a direction that most are not equipped to traverse. The purpose of a collegiate education is to broaden your knowledge and cultivate the self---not to check off a series of prerequisites and ECs so you can get to the next big thing.

Don't just go through the motions.
Don't make your collegiate experience a mere means to an end.

Make it an end in itself.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I also did a state school BS/MD. Can confirm, best decision I ever made. I have many Rice students in my medical class now---we ended up in the same place, albeit I had much more flexibility in my academic pursuits and markedly less stress. Take the Stony Brook.

I'm gonna go on a mildly philosophical spiel here:

The gift of the BS/MD is not the capacity to slack off---it's to go out and do things that premeds don't typically do. Go and study things that aren't stereotypically medicine-related. Take advantage of the guarantee to study the arts, the humanities, philosophy, policy, etc. in addition to your premed curriculum. As a BS/MD student, you are uniquely gifted with the capacity to expand the frontier of medicine in a direction that most are not equipped to traverse. The purpose of a collegiate education is to broaden your knowledge and cultivate the self---not to check off a series of prerequisites and ECs so you can get to the next big thing.

Don't just go through the motions.
Don't make your collegiate experience a mere means to an end.

Make it an end in itself.

That’s it! That’s exactly how I approached my bs/md as well. Excellent advice.

 

[makethemostofit]

I also went through a bs/md program and second the above. I was able to pursue unique activities. During my time in undergrad, I was able to 1) take acting classes 2) teach myself a new language in my spare time 3) read tons and tons of books 4) went through all of the Khan personal finance videos. I also took some dancing classes, performed at a cultural event, and took time to learn to LEARN. Pretty sweet, really.

 

[GunningForInternalMed]

Hey guys, I was recently admitted to both Rice University and the Stony Brook BS/MD Scholars For Medicine program. I have made a pros and cons list for the two schools below:

Rice (undergrad)
Pros:

• Close to home: strong support system with family and friends
• Strong connections with some research professors and doctors from the Texas Med Center (can continue my research in the lab from HS)
• Strong community and support system at Rice (highly collaborative; know a lot of upperclassmen and Rice grads)
• Close proximity to Texas Medical Center
• Excellent reputation for Texas med schools (TMDSAS in-state TX resident advantage)
• Better overall college experience?

Cons:

• Must go through traditional pre-med route (maintain high GPA, MCAT, ECs, etc)
• Cost: 45k annually (when compared to Stony Brook)
• Uncertainty of handling Rice's academic rigor (basically working harder/more stress)

Stony Brook BS/MD
Pros:

• Full tuition scholarship for undergrad: 20k annually (less undergrad debt)
• Conditional acceptance into med school
• Low stress (maintain a 3.4 min. GPA and min. MCAT)
• More time to focus on hobbies/research (maybe a co-authored publication?)
• Earlier start/motivation to do med-related activities for personal interest instead of for "pre-med requirements/ECs"

Cons:

• Lower ranked undergrad school at #91
• Community setting (heard SBU is a large commuter school)
• Location (never been to that side of NY)
• Commitment to the same location for the next 8 years
• Consideration of applying to other medical schools at the end of undergrad (especially with TX in-state med schools having super low tuition)
• Losing the traditional college experience??

*** I know I want to become a physician due to my extensive medical experiences in high school, but I also feel like I may be sacrificing something else in return by committing to a BS/MD. Thank you guys so much for your time! I just want to hear people's thoughts, especially for those who decided to undergo the BS/MD route.

BS/MD BS/MD BS/MD

 

[hmockingbird]

In reading OP’s posts, it seems like you LIKE Rice more and want the “traditional college experience”. You don’t seem very excited about SB. I agree with others that you will most likely be able to gain an MD acceptance down the road. So I would go with Rice.