Seeking advice: Clinician Career Change at 45?

[FireCloud9]

Present Patient History:
Married 45 male BBA/MBA CIS w/SAHM and 3 children all under 8yr presented with recent job loss to India after 10+yrs with high tech firm. Considering "healthcare" careers.

Why? One of the few sectors with job growth besides education & government.

Options: PA, Psych MA, Nursing (RN ADN, BSN, MSN, NP, etc.), MPH, Healthcare Admin/Mgmt - considered MD/OD though given situation, not realistic.

Q: Here is where I seek advice: Of the clinician options which are the quickest routes to an income in healthcare offering the best future potential? If you faced a similar situation (given the same variables above), which path would you choose and why? Your input is appreciated.

[Please do not redirect me to do some "research" - this is part of that process and it's much faster to get ideas and narrow down focus through discussion with those that have real life experience than just reading books (probably why college teachers exist)].

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[justme08]

I'm in a slightly similar boat and have the same number of kids. I've actually looked at all the options you've laid out. In a strange way, luckily for me I had two Associate level degrees but no Bachelors, so I am able to still get financial aide.

I ended up starting a BSN program (which will also knock out the PA science requirements) which runs on a quarter system (10 weeks). From what I've seen the tuition on grad nursing (FNP, PMHNP, etc.) is way cheaper than PA school for my area.

As you asked about the quickest routes there are some direct entry MSN programs for those with Bachelors in other subjects.

If you go the PA route, you will need to knock out the pre-reqs and most likely gain clinical experience, CNA, EMT, etc. PA school is about 2 years, factor in another year or two for your pre-reqs and work experience (although there are some schools that do not require the later).

Healthcare Admin/Mgmt with your business background may be something you'd like, plus hospital higher ups make nice money.

Counseling Psych with the MA, you won't earn much and it will honestly take a long time as well to get all your hours (post grad) to get licensed. If Psych is your interest I'd look into the NP route as they do have the Psych/Mental Health specialty.

 

[foreverLaur]

He could also just enter a bachelors degree PA program...

Would you rather practice medicine or nursing??

 

[FireCloud9]

He could also just enter a bachelors degree PA program...

Would you rather practice medicine or nursing??

I'd rather just put food on the table and feed my family. Unfortunately in California even those in Government and Education are being laid off. Yes, there have been some very small layoffs in Healthcare, but generally speaking it's the only industry hiring and even there it has been very selective.

I've been doing research across many other fields as I'd just need 20-30 credits for areas like Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering, but at my age those fields, like business, marketing, law, etc. are all slashing jobs, pay, opportunities are shrinking and there's a flood of unemployed professionals in those fields all in their 40s trying to figure out where to go, and not surprisingly many of them are looking at healthcare.

An MPH or MHA doesn't seem to add any value as I have an MBA and employers seem to want RN+MBA or some other clinician or healthcare experience + MBA and they'll readily take anyone that has any of those degrees or even a JD for work in healthcare admin. Here's a quick example of what I mean.

Given that virtually all other degrees - JD, MSEE, MPH, MHA, etc. have worse odds for landing a job in late 40s (by the time I finish), I'm looking at clinician options to combine with MBA/PMP.

Accelerated BSN for RN seems to be one option. PA another. AA though in CA there are no schools for it and I'm not sure one can practice here.

All other options that folks talk about - MSN, NP, etc. would seem to require the BSN/RN first anyway, so they're not viable.

So to answer your question - I would rather "practice" health or healthcare administration of some sort, but given the economic environment nowadays, particularly in California, it looks like I'll have to get there through the clinician route.

Sounds crazy, I know.

But to put it in context, I, along with many of my peers with advanced degrees whose jobs ended up in India, have all been looking for work for more than 1 year now.

That's not just sending out the occasional resume. I have an extensive network of business colleagues (500+) and have been "networking" and applying (more than 1,000 applications - at least 3 each day every day based on leads from colleagues - these are not just applying for online jobs).

Some of my colleagues in their early 50s have been looking for work for over 2 years now. That doesn't seem to be a good use of time...

Even if I landed a job tomorrow, working in anything but healthcare is not a good, secure, long term, proposition / plan.

I don't want to be in this position again when I'm 55+, specially with a family to support, so I need a viable plan that I can begin to pursue now.

My wife is in the same boat herself having graduated from the #1 school in the U.S. for her field and now unemployed in her early 40s and retraining to be a nurse. At least in her case she has no doubt and has taken all the science prereqs pulling straight As for all classes.

So now that I've been away for a few months speaking with unemployed engineers, lawyers, etc. I'm back to explore all viable healthcare possibilities that provide quick entry making at least $50k to "muddle through" while my wife and I re-train for higher paying positions making $80k+

Since many of you are in the industry already or have been researching and educating yourselves for roles in healthcare and adjacent areas, any insights, tips, pointers, advice, etc. that you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

I know that all these clinician programs are competitive from research my wife has done.

Given your experience and knowledge of the industry, what other programs might be viable and provide a pathway for admittance to clinician programs given our circumstances?

 

[jl lin]

He could also just enter a bachelors degree PA program...

Would you rather practice medicine or nursing??

That's really the bottom line question.

And as a nurse, I will tell you, many folks don't have a clue what many of us do.

One guy in a quicky market saw my Littman in my pocket and wanted to know why, if I was not a doctor (he first assume I was), would I need it. If he could come to some of the units and follow me around-- ah but even then . . .

Having done critical care nursing and learned and experienced many things, I have to admit, primariy it's ultimately a different focus--medicine versus nursing. There's some overlap both ways; but overall, my issue in nursing mostly is that my head just tends to go more toward medicine. The art and science of each field are of a different kind of focus.

So I know you don't want to hear do some research; but until you really spend some time in it and then spend some time shadowing in those areas, you will be doing yourself a disservice. And yes check out PA programs.

Have you considered law school and then healthcare law? Many nurses and doctors end up going in that direction and combine their expertise--and many are over 40 and find positions r//t healthcare and do well.


So to be more directed to the real question you ended with, I'd have to say for you perhaps NP or CRNA or someting like that; but you need a BSN and then to get into a strong NP program or nurse to JD (law) or PA or BSN to nurse anesthetist program. If nurse anesthetist, you'll need BSN and then you'll need to get strong experience in critical care/ ICUs as well sound coursework/GPA and GRE that are are strong enough. CRNA programs are very limited in seat number; thus they can be competitive. So, that would move you to a few years in an acclerated BSN, if you already have your undergrad, then a few years in critical care (Alhough I believe the more the better--nurses are going into school and moving straight into such grad programs after only a year of solid full-time clinical experience, and a number do so for the money and b/c clinical nursing can be more demanding then they thought it would be--a lot of reality shock. So this is a bit of peeve of mine; b/c we have all these nurses with really limited clinical insight going into grad programs to function on advanced levels; but they don't have the experience and will only get so much clinical time in their various programs to come out strong.

See if I were running these advanced practice programs--for nurses or PAs--I'd require a lot more clinical hours and exposures--ah wow. . .more like actual physicians get in residencies. Ut oh. Now I just made a bunch of nurses mad. Sorry. I'm there for ya guys. I just think physicians get a lot more overall education and supervised and supportive clinical guidance.

Wow. . .sorry I went on there. ..but you could go that route.


I don't know how much you are looking for--in terms of anything--but I am sensing an income requirement, and I understand--I'm totally not judging. But just know that in many clincial and healthcare areas, there is not quick way to making six figures. . . though that is certainly possible in a CRNA program--or maybe even with some that go through first-assistant programs (OR)--or those that advance high in administration. But you will still need a bachelor's for a CRNA program, a route to high-level administrative role--really a master's at least. Again, you will need ICU clinical experience, preferrably over a year (But yes, again, IMHO, nurses are just scratching the surface with only 1 to 3 years in critical care), and then you have to jump through all the program hoops, GRE, be competitive, have LORs, etc and then do the 2.5 or so years of intensive education/training in a nurse anesthetist program. After that and often waking up early enough to get in there at 0600 many mornings, then you have to sit for the board examination--specialized for that. And while in a CRNA program, the PDs don't recommend you work while you are in them, and some won't allow it, period.

I know CRNAs making over $140,000 per year. I know some NPs making 90,000-110,000 or so, while others are making about 80,000. Experienced nurses in specialized areas make more than %60,000's and 70,000, depending on the region in which you work, and if you are talking 36 hours or 40 or more. But also note that in this economic situation, hospitals are doing serious hiring freezes. Many GNs and even experienced RNs are having a much harder time finding positions.

In this economy and with things going the way they are, this is a tough call; and I'd say find out what you love. Finances matter; but it will cost time and a lot of money to go through any program--post-secondary education in this country is outrageous.

Or go to a local college and see some academic support people that can give you tests to help you figure out where your various strengths are and what you may be more wired for.

I disagree about JD and MPH and worse odds after 40. You bring a lot with you to the table. A lot of it is perseverance and presenation. So what do you want?

I can tell you personall that with my various ICU/C.C. experience, nurse anesthesia would be a lot of a easier jump for me than med school. But it is not what I want. And besides the education process, I'd be bored ultimately in CRNA role, whereas as an anesthesiologist, I would be less so, for as an ologist, there is more autonomy and way more options. Not that this is what I am setting out for in going to med school.

But hey it's not a huge money thing for me compared with some other nurses I've worked with. They see the six figures in CRNA, and they start jumping for the CRNA hoops, even with far less intensive care surgery, peds, etc as what I have.

I know me, and after a while, I would feel so robotized in the role. CRNAs can do a lot; but they will never totally take over anesthesia. I am not so sure why some ologists are even nervous about them totally taking over. I just don't see it. CRNAs will always have to work under an anesthesiologist, and really, IMO, that is exactly how it should be. (I just know a nurse is going to read this and get ticked at me.)

But if you can with live that and whatever hoops that are required, then make it a plan and go for it; but definitely spend some time in a very busy, university based critical care unit before you embark upon this journey.

People can work well into their 70's and some more than that if they stay in good shape and if they are healthy enough, and if it is the kind of work that they pretty much love. I say find and do what you love.

If you are getting a decent severance from IBM, well, there's no fire. You are young. You can pretty much do whatever you'd like. It's just, well, it's not good to waste a lot of time and money in something that will end up making you sick and loathing going into work everyday if you can help it.

Good luck. Firecloud, you can PM me, and I will give you some more info re: nursing, NP, CRNA, etc, if you want.

 

[foreverLaur]

The fastest way to get a health care degree that brings in money would be nursing. PA is a solid and rough 27 months with a long list of prerequisites. NP school requires a BSN first - there are direct entry 3 year programs but again, a long list of prerequisites and you really should have some RN experience first.

From the looks at things, you might want to consider getting your masters in health administration. That would probably be considered a health care related bachelors degree (or higher) and you said you already have the MBA.

Although it is really really hard to manage anyone who works in hands on health care without having worked in hands on health care yourself. The people that ran the floor I used to work on were all RNs and the main manager had a MHA. However, none of them had done beside nursing in the past 10 years and it made it really hard because they would implement rules and enforce things that were virtually impossible but they had no idea because they never actually did it.

So, IMO, get your nursing degree. Work as a nurse for a while. You can make some darn good money in that field with overtime and shift differentials. Then you should have a very solid application in a few years to get into the admin side like you want.

 

[FireCloud9]

So I know you don't want to hear do some research; but until you really spend some time in it and then spend some time shadowing in those areas, you will be doing yourself a disservice. And yes check out PA programs.

Let me attempt to clarify a few points. First, I've been doing research across many fields for the past 6+ months, and this is part of those research efforts to get ideas about alternatives and real life experiences, not simply books (most of which are dated).

Have you considered law school and then healthcare law?
I disagree about JD and MPH and worse odds after 40.

Yes, I considered law school. An accelerated program is 2.5yrs, and while you disagree that 40+ isn't too old for law school (it isn't), what matters is being able to become employed upon graduation. I've done a lot of research in this area and the big dollars that come with law school are from top firms, which consistently do not hire 40+ lawyers even from top law schools. This isn't just a random opinion, but the perspective of plenty of 40+ lawyers that graduated from top law schools.

The other discouraging aspect of law is the low pay and lack of employment opportunities outside of the big firms.

According to ABA statistics, of all JD holders in the U.S. only 40% work as lawyers. 60% do not work in the field of law.

As for MPH or MHA, every job posting I've ever seen have no preference between degree holders with MBA / MPH / MHA and in some cases JD.

An RN+MBA has a greater advantage than an MBA+MHA or MBA+MPH. Actually, I should say a Clinician+MBA has a greater advantage for those admin type roles.

If you just do a quick Indeed.com search for jobs in healthcare admin you'll see what I mean.

I am sensing an income requirement,

Yes, there is an income requirement. I'm not expecting to just waltz in and make $100k+ but I have little long term interest in healthcare jobs paying $30k. I would only consider those as quick stepping stones to higher objectives.

But just know that in many clincial and healthcare areas, there is not quick way to making six figures. . . though that is certainly possible in a CRNA program--or maybe even with some that go through first-assistant programs (OR)--or those that advance high in administration.

I'm ok with the fact that there's not "quick" path to six figures. I'm just looking at careers with that potential within say 5yrs. I've seen quite a few opportunities for those with an RN + MBA on the administration side of things that pay well. Unfortunately, they all want clinical experience (RN / PA / MD).

After that and often waking up early enough to get in there at 0600 many mornings,

Waking up at 0600 sounds great. I'll get to sleep in an extra hour. I'm ex-military, Infantry, wake up was 0300 to 0500 (on weekends) which was good training for having kids that wake us up at 0500 every day.

But also note that in this economic situation, hospitals are doing serious hiring freezes. Many GNs and even experienced RNs are having a much harder time finding positions.

I'm aware of the current economic situation. I can do nothing and still be here 2yrs later or do something to retrain.

Or go to a local college and see some academic support people that can give you tests to help you figure out where your various strengths are and what you may be more wired for.

I've taken more than a dozen personality and career tests over the years, the results are always the same. E/I NTJ and these are the corresponding career options.

* Scientist
* Engineer
* Professor and Teacher
* Medical Doctor / Dentist
* Nursing Manager
* Corporate Strategist and Organization Builder
* Business Administrator / Manager
* Military Leader
* Lawyers / Attorney
* Judge
* Computer Programmer, Systems Analyst and Computer Specialist

People can work well into their 70's and some more than that if they stay in good shape and if they are healthy enough,

Good to hear you can work into your 70s in healthcare, in most other professions it's completely unheard of. You don't even see many workers past their 50s in corporate america (and it's not because they can retire).

You are young. You can pretty much do whatever you'd like. It's just, well, it's not good to waste a lot of time and money in something that will end up making you sick and loathing going into work everyday if you can help it.

55% of all Americans hate their jobs. Few love them. I'm in my mid 40s and never loved any job so I fail to see what would be different. Might as well make some money and have some relative employment security.

Thanks for the quick response JL, FL.

I've been told that a quick entry into healthcare for the purposes of applying to PA programs is EMT, MA, ABSN.... other ideas?

 

[FireCloud9]

The fastest way to get a health care degree that brings in money would be nursing. PA is a solid and rough 27 months with a long list of prerequisites. NP school requires a BSN first - there are direct entry 3 year programs but again, a long list of prerequisites and you really should have some RN experience first.

From the looks at things, you might want to consider getting your masters in health administration. That would probably be considered a health care related bachelors degree (or higher) and you said you already have the MBA.

Although it is really really hard to manage anyone who works in hands on health care without having worked in hands on health care yourself. The people that ran the floor I used to work on were all RNs and the main manager had a MHA. However, none of them had done beside nursing in the past 10 years and it made it really hard because they would implement rules and enforce things that were virtually impossible but they had no idea because they never actually did it.

So, IMO, get your nursing degree. Work as a nurse for a while. You can make some darn good money in that field with overtime and shift differentials. Then you should have a very solid application in a few years to get into the admin side like you want.

As I mentioned in my previous response an MHA doesn't buy me anything from an employer's perspective since I already have an MBA. Here are some examples from actual job postings.

- A Master's degree is highly preferred ( e.g. , MPH, MBA, MHA, JD, MD)

- Current registered nurse licensure or related clinical licensure required • MBA, MHA, or equivalent in healthcare, information technology, or general business

- Business, health care management or industrial engineering is required. An MBA, MHA or equivalent is strongly recommended

- Preferred Qualifications: - MBA / MPH / MPA / RN optional, but preferred.

- Preferred Qualifications: - MBA / MPH / MPA

- Requirements Education: BSN, Masters preferred (MSN, MBA, or MHA)

- degree in Nursing required. - Masters degree in Nursing Administration, MBA, MHA, or similar with strong finance background required

- NICU Nurse Manager- 130K MSN/MHA/MBA

- RN, Registered Nurse $120... Management, BSN Degree, Master's Degree, MSN, MHA, MBA, Level I Trauma, Oncology, Telemetry, Medical

-Nurse holding a BSN degree (MBA or MHA preferred)

-RN identifies, designs... requirements: BSN; Masters prepared in MPH, MSN (administration), MBA, MHA, other equivalent

On the administration side of healthcare they don't care which of these kinds of masters degrees you have (and they shouldn't). With the exception of a few classes they're virtually identical degrees.

Business Admin, is not much different than Education Admin, Government Admin, Healthcare Admin, etc. Administration is the business of X. Financial analysis, procurement, etc. are all the same. Negotiating for 10,000 chips or 10,000 needles. Is the same process - MBAs are not chip design engineers nor medical practitioners and they don't need to be. They have to understand business, economics, finance, statistics, etc.

So as you can see from the examples, an MHA / MPH wouldn't buy me anything.

A clinician credential on the other hand would. I'm certain that with 3-5 yrs clinical experience in healthcare, there would be many healthcare admin jobs available to me, but that will only be possible via an RN/PA and a few years of clinical experience.

 

[Endee]

I read your post on the Non-Traditional thread, and I admire you for considering all these options to try to make a better and more secure life for your family. Sorry to hear about your job...

Forgive me if you've talked about this already, the posts here on this thread are REALLY long and right now I don't have the time to read through every one. What is the most important thing right now, if you had to choose one? Is it the time that it will take to do schooling? or the income? Or the type of career/field? Or something else?

I would decide the last one first. I'm in AA school right now.. I had a BS in Biology and could have gotten back for a BSN and then MSN to be a CRNA, which would have given me more geographical opportunities, but I had no desire to work as a nurse for even a short period of time. A lot of my classmates felt the same way. Some people don't mind doing nursing and all of the tasks that it entails. Others might not want anything to do with it.

I took income and length of schooling together and formulated a sort of "ROI" value when considering options. Of my options when I was finishing college, PA and AA required no extra schooling before entering the professional curriculum, so it was 27 months from "present to paycheck." Of those two, I chose AA, because the salary is 1.5 to 3 times higher, and they are licensed in my state, and there was a school in my hometown (Nova), therefore mostly eliminating the geographic constraints of the profession (they can work in 18 states and counting -- www.anesthetist.org ) PA school is an alternative if you dont want to move or dont have access to an AA program in your state. They make a lot less but can work anywhere and in any different specialty (except anesthesia, I think there is only like a handful of PA's working in anesthesia practice).

The other choices all had a lower ROI value, either because of a lower income or longer schooling. This includes all of the nursing professions/specialties, which would have first required a BSN, which would have taken one year, followed by working as an actual nurse for a given period of time, like 1-3 years. That means the soonest I could have become a CRNA was a little over 4 years and I would have made the exact same as an AA, so it was pointless. NP's were similar in education length and made less.

If I were to make a recommendation for you, the first thing that would come to mind would be PA school. You're looking at 2.5 years and 70-110k afterwards, depending on location and specialty.

Good luck!

 

[meatbone1]

Like the OP, I am too fed up with IT in general. My past two jobs (software development) have been outsourced to India, or they let me go because the 'Indian workers' cost 'less' than me. My last day at my job was 12/31/09 and at that point I registered to take my pre-reqs for nursing school. I've been battling/debating on which avenue to healthcare I should take. I originally started with MD, then looked into PA for a couple of years, and then nursing, then MD, yada, yada, yada. I battled back and forth on which route for 5 years!!!! The last straw was my last job. I'm now taking classes towards a nursing degree. However it will be a direct entry program since I have my undergrad degree. It will take a total of 3 years (pre-reqs included) to obtain my BSN, and then MSN (NP). If I took MD route, it would take 3 years or pre-reqs, and PA would be also require the same amount of time.

Fastest way for me is to obtain a NP degree and realistically start out with a salary between $75-90K. Mind you, that is a paycut from my previous salary, but I cannot possibly see healthcare being outsourced to India.
Do the cost benefit analysis. Yes you'll prob make more after a PA/MD/DO, however in the long run,(short term) you can begin an income immediately after obtaining an NP degree.

Also you need to be realistic also about the healthcare industry job freezes. However, if you prove and believe in yourself and your ability to be a NP (happy, confident, and not just looking for another way to make $$), this profession can and will be rewarding to you.

Good luck and know you're not alone.

PS. if direct entry is not an option, try schools that have BSN/MSN segue options. This way you'll be able to work immediately after your BSN or work an externship, and then start your MSN program. With direct entry, there isn't a break after BSN(NCLEX).

 

[Endee]

I forgot about the graduate direct entry route. That is also an option, although I think there are many nurses who are weary of people who go through that since they get into the advanced practice nursing profession without ever working as a registered nurse.

 

[fab4fan]

No offense, but it's posts like this one that scare the crap out of me: Thinking only about the fastest way to make a buck, and no thought to what kind of responsibility you have to your patients and fellow health care providers. This "quick and easy" mentality bodes poorly for the future of health care.

Posts like this one only reinforce my decision to have my health care provided by a physician.

 

[FireCloud9]

I read your post on the Non-Traditional thread, and I admire you for considering all these options to try to make a better and more secure life for your family. Sorry to hear about your job...

Forgive me if you've talked about this already, the posts here on this thread are REALLY long and right now I don't have the time to read through every one. What is the most important thing right now, if you had to choose one? Is it the time that it will take to do schooling? or the income? Or the type of career/field? Or something else?

I would decide the last one first. I'm in AA school right now.. I had a BS in Biology and could have gotten back for a BSN and then MSN to be a CRNA, which would have given me more geographical opportunities, but I had no desire to work as a nurse for even a short period of time. A lot of my classmates felt the same way. Some people don't mind doing nursing and all of the tasks that it entails. Others might not want anything to do with it.

I took income and length of schooling together and formulated a sort of "ROI" value when considering options. Of my options when I was finishing college, PA and AA required no extra schooling before entering the professional curriculum, so it was 27 months from "present to paycheck." Of those two, I chose AA, because the salary is 1.5 to 3 times higher, and they are licensed in my state, and there was a school in my hometown (Nova), therefore mostly eliminating the geographic constraints of the profession (they can work in 18 states and counting -- www.anesthetist.org ) PA school is an alternative if you dont want to move or dont have access to an AA program in your state. They make a lot less but can work anywhere and in any different specialty (except anesthesia, I think there is only like a handful of PA's working in anesthesia practice).

The other choices all had a lower ROI value, either because of a lower income or longer schooling. This includes all of the nursing professions/specialties, which would have first required a BSN, which would have taken one year, followed by working as an actual nurse for a given period of time, like 1-3 years. That means the soonest I could have become a CRNA was a little over 4 years and I would have made the exact same as an AA, so it was pointless. NP's were similar in education length and made less.

If I were to make a recommendation for you, the first thing that would come to mind would be PA school. You're looking at 2.5 years and 70-110k afterwards, depending on location and specialty.

Good luck!

Endee,

Thanks for your response. Not your fault my job went to India In fact, it's not the first time. I've been an engineer, programmer, analyst, and all those jobs ended up over there. Each time I reinvented myself, outsourcing followed.

Most important? I don't really have the option of choosing just one thing. I have a family to support so I'll have to work while I reinvent my career yet again. Income, we can get by with $40-50k for a few years assuming the job has healthcare coverage.

Time schooling is an important factor. If it wasn't it'd be an easy one for me, I'd just go MD. I don't have 4yrs+3yrs residency minimum all full-time.

I know my answer to this next question will upset some, but the career / field to me is largely irrelevant. My approach to decisions is non-emotional, pragmatic, practical and rational so I like your ROI calculation.

I understand what you mean by BSN->RN->ICU work->MSN->CRNA being lengthy, particularly as a career changer who has little interest in being a murse, but it is a more secure profession with better future prospects even in non-clinical settings.

The nurses union and lobbying arm are taking over the world, pretty soon you'll need an RN to be a Janitor in a clinical setting.

Those MDs / PAs / AAs better start fighting back or you'll all be reporting to DNPs Though like my wife says, if you can't beat them, join them.

As I mentioned earlier, an RN (for me) is a path to management and administration jobs in a healthcare environment. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a non-clinical, administrative RN education program (maybe there should be?)

I've heard of Nova, and have given some thought to Emory's PA/AA program.

Though in my case, my undergrad/grad classes are largely computer science and business, and biology, etc. are not recent.

There's only 1 PA school by me and this is their requirement. So I looked at this list and wondered which fields would be competitive as a career changer for a PA program, and which can I make a living in the short term. The ones in bold are my impression of what may be competitive for a career changer to get into the program.

"A minimum of two years direct (hands-on) patient care experience is highly recommended. Some examples of positions providing this experience are:

• RN
• LVN
• Paramedic
• EMT
• Medical Assistant (back office)
• Respiratory Therapist
• International Medical Graduate (IMG)
• Physical Therapist"

All that being said, I'm open to suggestions and other venues as to how to break into the administrative side of healthcare with limited (but highly valued) clinical experience.

That said, if I have to put in a lot of time (4-5yrs), I'll just stay on the clinician side PA / AA / NP which can potentially make just as much or more than the admin side.

Suggestions are welcome. I'm trying to adhere to the motto, "first, do no harm" by rapidly (2-3yrs) going through the clinician side to get to admin. Remember, the life you save may be your own.

And for those that may be sensitive to my comments, hey, don't blame me, I'm not the one that makes the rules asking for an RN or other clinical xp with an MBA.

I'm not 20 or 30 something. The only jobs left that have decent pay, are difficult to outsource, have good future potential, and where a 50yr old can get a job is healthcare.

Even if I land a six figure job tomorrow, I'm still retraining for healthcare.

My wife is retraining from architecture to nurse for the same reason, and a friend of hers who used to be in architecture is a CRNA today (and she never did the ICU bit which is puzzling to me). Both report the educational process to be much easier than other majors like architecture, engineering, technology, etc. so I'm not worried about the actual educational process.

 

[fab4fan]

I forgot about the graduate direct entry route. That is also an option, although I think there are many nurses who are weary of people who go through that since they get into the advanced practice nursing profession without ever working as a registered nurse.

We're not "weary" of you. You scare the hell out of us because you have no clue what you're doing. I think the word you want is "leery." Yes, we're very leery of inexperienced, poorly educated nurses working as mid-level providers.

 

[FireCloud9]

No offense, but it's posts like this one that scare the crap out of me: Thinking only about the fastest way to make a buck, and no thought to what kind of responsibility you have to your patients and fellow health care providers. This "quick and easy" mentality bodes poorly for the future of health care.

Posts like this one only reinforce my decision to have my health care provided by a physician.

Fab4fan,

I take no offense, and you have every right to be scared. I don't mean to scare you even more, but healthcare is about to be swamped with extremely aggressive professionals from a variety of other fields who are tired of having their jobs sent to Brazil, India, China, Russia.

So while you and others in the healthcare profession have been busy debating egos between MD / DNP / PA / AA etc. There is an army of us from other fields coming your way. Our collective interest in healthcare is close to zilch - which is, after all the reason we became engineers, lawyers, MBAs, etc. but we've all watched our jobs and livelihood go overseas. So here we are.

My wife is an architect without a job or options. She graduated from the #1 architecture in the country and has no future prospects. She just finished her first year heading to an RN program - fully loaded on coursework and in 1yr finished all her requirements with straight A's and I wouldn't even describe her as aggressive compared to the lawyers, engineers and other business types that I know. One was able to load up on 24 credits at 2 universities simultaneously in one semester took the NYCLEX 1yr into an ABSN/MSN program, dropped the program upon admittance to a PA program and will be out in 2012.

I forgot about the graduate direct entry route. That is also an option, although I think there are many nurses who are weary of people who go through that since they get into the advanced practice nursing profession without ever working as a registered nurse.

Endee, thanks, but I'm not concerned about what nurses are wary of. RN is not my final objective. There is a ABSN/MSN program by me, but they make you sign a contract that you'll stay in the program for the MSN after you get the RN in the 1st year.

I've heard there are some AA programs where one could fulfill the pre-reqs during the program.

MD/DO is out of the question for me (too old for that and too many years). Though I know about a half dozen unemployed folks who all have "aced" the MCAT recently and are headed to medical school. One self studied and scored so well on the MCAT that they were accepted into a medical school without all the prereqs.

 

[Endee]

We're not "weary" of you. You scare the hell out of us because you have no clue what you're doing. I think the word you want is "leery." Yes, we're very leery of inexperienced, poorly educated nurses working as mid-level providers.

Sorry if I used the wrong word, but I'm not in nursing school so the personal aspect of your comment may have been unnecessary.

 

[Endee]

If you're specifically looking towards health administration, have you considered either a) setting up a meeting with a hospital administrator, or exchanging emails with one, and trying to get information about what you may or may not need to do? or b) seeing if there are any heath administration masters programs that have a record of internships and job placement?

Of all of the administrators i've met (n=1), he is an MD, so I don't personally know any that aren't clinicians. Surely they must exist, though. But I don't know much about the business side of hospitals.

As an aside, a good friend of mine is in PA school in Orlando and had shadowing and volunteer experience as an undergrad but never had a health care job before going to PA school. The schools that are private and/or less prestigious take students that don't have paid experience with more frequency.

 

[FireCloud9]

We're not "weary" of you. You scare the hell out of us because you have no clue what you're doing. I think the word you want is "leery." Yes, we're very leery of inexperienced, poorly educated nurses working as mid-level providers.

Don't blame professionals from other fields entering healthcare.

Part of the problem is healthcare itself.

Many of us just want to work on the admin side, but RN or other clinician credential is a requirement. In many cases the healthcare institutions don't even care if you've never worked as RN, they just want the RN license + MBA / MHA / MPH / JD. They also accept PA + the aforementioned professional degrees.

Since clinician credentials is a requirement, many reason, why not just switch over to the clinician side in cases where it may pay better - AA / CRNA

Most of these professionals were making six figures before their jobs were lost to other countries. Expect to see many with such backgrounds working alongside you in as few as 2-3 years...

I'm sure you're probably aware about the number of auto workers now working as MAs, EMTs, etc....

 

[fab4fan]

And there will be plenty of nurses like me, watching people like you like a hawk.

Classroom work is not the same as working in the trenches. Your wife's grades may be admirable, but good grades don't necessarily mean someone is going to be a good nurse.

I think you should be very concerned what nurses will think of you. You will not be working in a vacuum, and you will need the help of experienced nurses to achieve your goal.

The fact that your interest in health care is, as you said, "close to zilch" makes me fear for your future patients. I'm not one of those nurses who believes the profession is a "calling," but if you have only personal financial gain as your incentive, then you will be sorely disappointed, and so will your patients.

And if you think health care is a safe-haven, I'd urge you to think again. When the budget is up for debate, who do you think winds up getting cut first? Management. You'll find health-care can be just as cut-throat as any business.

 

[fab4fan]

Don't blame professionals from other fields entering healthcare.

Part of the problem is healthcare itself.

Many of us just want to work on the admin side, but RN or other clinician credential is a requirement. In many cases the healthcare institutions don't even care if you've never worked as RN, they just want the RN license + MBA / MHA / MPH / JD. They also accept PA + the aforementioned professional degrees.

Since clinician credentials is a requirement, many reason, why not just switch over to the clinician side in cases where it may pay better - AA / CRNA

Most of these professionals were making six figures before their jobs were lost to other countries. Expect to see many with such backgrounds working alongside you in as few as 2-3 years...

I'm sure you're probably aware about the number of auto workers now working as MAs, EMTs, etc....

They won't be working with me if they don't have solid skills. My area takes no newbies--ever. One of the nicer things about specializing; you can get selective about who you work with.

I applaud you for your dreams. I just think you have a lot of reality to catch up with.

 

[FireCloud9]

If you're specifically looking towards health administration, have you considered either a) setting up a meeting with a hospital administrator, or exchanging emails with one, and trying to get information about what you may or may not need to do? or b) seeing if there are any heath administration masters programs that have a record of internships and job placement?

Of all of the administrators i've met (n=1), he is an MD, so I don't personally know any that aren't clinicians. Surely they must exist, though. But I don't know much about the business side of hospitals.

As an aside, a good friend of mine is in PA school in Orlando and had shadowing and volunteer experience as an undergrad but never had a health care job before going to PA school. The schools that are private and/or less prestigious take students that don't have paid experience with more frequency.

Yes. And discovered a clinician background is preferred and often a requirement.

MHAs don't buy you anything when you have an MBA. See my previous posts with examples of job postings. MBA / MHA / MPH are interchangeable. They want the clinician background.

Yes, I've noticed that about some programs. You can volunteer at a hospital and that's good enough for entry if you have the pre-reqs and a masters degree in another field.

The more expensive schools have indicated that I can go in without any healthcare experience and will even waive many of the credentials - though some of those programs run $75k, but they're from very well recognized schools.

 

[Endee]

Yes. And discovered a clinician background is preferred and often a requirement.

MHAs don't buy you anything when you have an MBA. See my previous posts with examples of job postings. MBA / MHA / MPH are interchangeable. They want the clinician background.

Yes, I've noticed that about some programs. You can volunteer at a hospital and that's good enough for entry if you have the pre-reqs and a masters degree in another field.

The more expensive schools have indicated that I can go in without any healthcare experience and will even waive many of the credentials - though some of those programs run $75k, but they're from very well recognized schools.

Ah, I understand what you're saying about the MHA. Perhaps like you said then, you could get the RN and simply use that as a credential to get into administration. It would seem frustrating to do all of that health care and clinical training to never use it, at least in my opinion, but if merely having the license is a standard requirement for administration then it seems like there's nothing you can really do about it.

 

[foreverLaur]

So why don't you get your nursing degree and work as a nurse for a few years? The pay is great and the experience is invaluable.

 

[Endee]

So why don't you get your nursing degree and work as a nurse for a few years? The pay is great and the experience is invaluable.

Agreed,


Becoming an RN via either an ASN or accelerated BSN seems like it will open up the most opportunities for you. You could stay where you are, go into admin, go into advanced practice, whatever seems to suit your interests or needs.

 

[FireCloud9]

No offense Fab4fan, but maybe you should be on the lookout for the 1,000+ nurses that got into the system with an LVN or AA or have addictions to drugs and alcohol. Experience comes with time and/or education. If the education is lacking look to the schools that should have residency programs.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-nurses-fingerprints26-2009dec26,0,3288465.story

Not my fault the admin jobs require clinician experience and there isn't an alternate path for folks like myself, just one path for RN which assumes you're going to work in a clinical environment, but in fact there are many non-clinician areas RNs work in from admin to insurance companies.

And there will be plenty of nurses like me, watching people like you like a hawk.

Classroom work is not the same as working in the trenches. Your wife's grades may be admirable, but good grades don't necessarily mean someone is going to be a good nurse.

I think you should be very concerned what nurses will think of you. You will not be working in a vacuum, and you will need the help of experienced nurses to achieve your goal.

The fact that your interest in health care is, as you said, "close to zilch" makes me fear for your future patients. I'm not one of those nurses who believes the profession is a "calling," but if you have only personal financial gain as your incentive, then you will be sorely disappointed, and so will your patients.

And if you think health care is a safe-haven, I'd urge you to think again. When the budget is up for debate, who do you think winds up getting cut first? Management. You'll find health-care can be just as cut-throat as any business.

Do you wake up wondering if your job has been outsourced or offshored? Do you even hear those terms in healthcare? The friends that we know in healthcare encouraged us to look for jobs in it (they held other professions previously). They felt we'd pick it up quickly and are better candidates than many who are already in the profession.

They won't be working with me if they don't have solid skills. My area takes no newbies--ever. One of the nicer things about specializing; you can get selective about who you work with.

I applaud you for your dreams. I just think you have a lot of reality to catch up with.

Reality is unemployment and constant offshoring of jobs. Sorry, but starvation and long term poverty seems like a harder path to me.

As I said previously, suggestions are welcome - the life you save may be your own. I may not work with you, but you may come into a hospital I (or someone like me) is working in.

As someone who has seen his fair share of emergency situations I can tell you I never picked when to be struck by an emergency and what hospital I ended up in.

 

[Dwindlin]

No offense, but it's posts like this one that scare the crap out of me: Thinking only about the fastest way to make a buck, and no thought to what kind of responsibility you have to your patients and fellow health care providers. This "quick and easy" mentality bodes poorly for the future of health care.

Posts like this one only reinforce my decision to have my health care provided by a physician.

Was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. Glad you spoke up.

 

[FireCloud9]

Ah, I understand what you're saying about the MHA. Perhaps like you said then, you could get the RN and simply use that as a credential to get into administration. It would seem frustrating to do all of that health care and clinical training to never use it, at least in my opinion, but if merely having the license is a standard requirement for administration then it seems like there's nothing you can really do about it.

Yes, the RN is certainly one option.

Your 2nd point is exactly why I'm considering mid-level clinician possibilities. That is, it would be a shame to do all that healthcare training and never use it.

So the 2 options are:

1. Quickest path to clinician credential to work in admin or
2. Longer path, but end up changing careers to clinician altogether (provided that area pays or has the potential to pay better than RN+MBA jobs) ex. AA / and some PA

 

[FireCloud9]

Agreed,


Becoming an RN via either an ASN or accelerated BSN seems like it will open up the most opportunities for you. You could stay where you are, go into admin, go into advanced practice, whatever seems to suit your interests or needs.

That certainly seems the most expedient path since the PA path requires experience as either an RN, Paramedic, EMT, etc.

Though there are some AA programs that would be a quick path if I rationalized remaining in the clinician side.....

 

[Endee]

That certainly seems the most expedient path since the PA path requires experience as either an RN, Paramedic, EMT, etc.

Though there are some AA programs that would be a quick path if I rationalized remaining in the clinician side.....

AA is great and the job possibilities are excellent, the only caveat is you have to be willing to live where we can work.

Another factor as well is work schedule. Like I said before, I don't know a lot about the life of a hospital admin, or even what they make, but if I had to take a wild guess I would think most of them work at least 5 days a week. On the other hand, it is very common for clinicians to be able to work 4 or 3 days a week in longer shifts. As someone who has a family, that might be a factor that is important to you. However, the common denominator (clinical training to clinician or clinical training to admin) is still the same.

 

[fab4fan]

No offense Fab4fan, but maybe you should be on the lookout for the 1,000+ nurses that got into the system with an LVN or AA or have addictions to drugs and alcohol. Experience comes with time and/or education. If the education is lacking look to the schools that should have residency programs.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-nurses-fingerprints26-2009dec26,0,3288465.story

Not my fault the admin jobs require clinician experience and there isn't an alternate path for folks like myself, just one path for RN which assumes you're going to work in a clinical environment, but in fact there are many non-clinician areas RNs work in from admin to insurance companies.



Do you wake up wondering if your job has been outsourced or offshored? Do you even hear those terms in healthcare? The friends that we know in healthcare encouraged us to look for jobs in it (they held other professions previously). They felt we'd pick it up quickly and are better candidates than many who are already in the profession.




Reality is unemployment and constant offshoring of jobs. Sorry, but starvation and long term poverty seems like a harder path to me.

As I said previously, suggestions are welcome - the life you save may be your own. I may not work with you, but you may come into a hospital I (or someone like me) is working in.

As someone who has seen his fair share of emergency situations I can tell you I never picked when to be struck by an emergency and what hospital I ended up in.

You know nothing about me. We have been through several cycles of foreign nurse immigration. You're trying to lecture to someone who has BDTD.

I'm fortunate to live in an area where the docs still have control. If for some reason if I happen upon an NP for care, I'd ask for a physician.

 

[FireCloud9]

AA is great and the job possibilities are excellent, the only caveat is you have to be willing to live where we can work.

Another factor as well is work schedule. Like I said before, I don't know a lot about the life of a hospital admin, or even what they make, but if I had to take a wild guess I would think most of them work at least 5 days a week. On the other hand, it is very common for clinicians to be able to work 4 or 3 days a week in longer shifts. As someone who has a family, that might be a factor that is important to you. However, the common denominator (clinical training to clinician or clinical training to admin) is still the same.

Kudos to you Endee! One of the few that have understood this.

Look folks if there was job security and good future prospects that are not discriminatory in other professions I wouldn't be here, but in areas like electrical engineering, IT, law, business, they practically view you as a corpse by the time you're 40. Retirement for CEOs and senior execs is mandatory at 65, everyone else below that from employees to directors and even junior executives is "exposed" once beyond 40.

I don't mind working 5 days a week on the admin side or the clinician side. The usual schedule for most of my peers was 12hr days 5 to 5 and a half days a week. Many work global jobs so once Europe is awake you may have a meeting at 4 or 5am and meetings with Asia are usually 10-12pm.

Since the common denominator is clinician. If I can find a quick path clinician to admin I'll stay on the admin side, otherwise I'll head to the clinician side.

If there are any PAs out there I have a question. Since PAs work closely with doctors, but don't make anywhere near as much, how does a PA work when the doctor does not? Some of the doctors by me only work 2-3 days.

 

[FireCloud9]

You know nothing about me. We have been through several cycles of foreign nurse immigration. You're trying to lecture to someone who has BDTD.

I'm fortunate to live in an area where the docs still have control. If for some reason if I happen upon an NP for care, I'd ask for a physician.

You're right of course, I don't know anything about you, but I suspect you haven't required much emergency care in your life given your statement.

I have. I wouldn't assume you're conscious when needing emergency care, nor would I assume that the emergency care was being rendered where I live.

I've needed emergency care while on vacation in other countries, and while on vacation in the U.S.

I've been flown from one state to another because the right equipment wasn't available in the state where one of my surgeries began (it ended in another state).

There's a reason it's called, "emergency care".

By the way, what are you doing in this thread anyway? It's a thread seeking advice regarding clinician career change. If you have some value to add, go ahead and make a clinician career path suggestion or alternative.

But don't assume that people like me will just go away into poverty just because you'd prefer we don't enter the last industry with a promising future willing to hire people over 40.

As for your foreign nurse immigration, I'll match that with the army of H1-B visas (some of which I had to train before they replaced me) on top of outsourcing, offshoring, and technology automation.

 

[fab4fan]

No offense Fab4fan, but maybe you should be on the lookout for the 1,000+ nurses that got into the system with an LVN or AA or have addictions to drugs and alcohol. Experience comes with time and/or education. If the education is lacking look to the schools that should have residency programs.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-nurses-fingerprints26-2009dec26,0,3288465.story

Not my fault the admin jobs require clinician experience and there isn't an alternate path for folks like myself, just one path for RN which assumes you're going to work in a clinical environment, but in fact there are many non-clinician areas RNs work in from admin to insurance companies.

Do you wake up wondering if your job has been outsourced or offshored? Do you even hear those terms in healthcare? The friends that we know in healthcare encouraged us to look for jobs in it (they held other professions previously). They felt we'd pick it up quickly and are better candidates than many who are already in the profession.


Reality is unemployment and constant offshoring of jobs. Sorry, but starvation and long term poverty seems like a harder path to me.

As I said previously, suggestions are welcome - the life you save may be your own. I may not work with you, but you may come into a hospital I (or someone like me) is working in.

As someone who has seen his fair share of emergency situations I can tell you I never picked when to be struck by an emergency and what hospital I ended up in.

I have no idea what the comment about addictions was, other than a lame attempt to take a swipe at people who are nurses. A one week "residency" is hardly a residency. It was really unnecessary, and says a lot about you, as do your previous posts.

You needn't lecture me about all of the opportunities in nursing. I'm sure I've been in this profession longer than it ever crossed your mind.

You need a solid foundation before you build a house.

You flatter yourself to think I'd accept care from you or any of your other fast-buck buddies.

 

[fab4fan]

You're right of course, I don't know anything about you, but I suspect you haven't required much emergency care in your life given your statement.

I have. I wouldn't assume you're conscious when needing emergency care, nor would I assume that the emergency care was being rendered where I live.

I've needed emergency care while on vacation in other countries, and while on vacation in the U.S.

I've been flown from one state to another because the right equipment wasn't available in the state where one of my surgeries began (it ended in another state).

There's a reason it's called, "emergency care".

By the way, what are you doing in this thread anyway? It's a thread seeking advice regarding clinician career change. If you have some value to add, go ahead and make a clinician career path suggestion or alternative.

But don't assume that people like me will just go away into poverty just because you'd prefer we don't enter the last industry with a promising future willing to hire people over 40.

As for your foreign nurse immigration, I'll match that with the army of H1-B visas (some of which I had to train before they replaced me) on top of outsourcing, offshoring, and technology automation.

And you would be wrong in your assumption again. This forum is belongs to anyone. You don't own it. Whatever you say is up for public debate.

Don't think that your work difficulties somehow entitle you to another career making the same money. It's obvious you haven't thought some of the more practical matters through.

 

[FireCloud9]

I have no idea what the comment about addictions was, other than a lame attempt to take a swipe at people who are nurses. A one week "residency" is hardly a residency. It was really unnecessary, and says a lot about you, as do your previous posts.

You needn't lecture me about all of the opportunities in nursing. I'm sure I've been in this profession longer than it ever crossed your mind.

You need a solid foundation before you build a house.

You flatter yourself to think I'd accept care from you or any of your other fast-buck buddies.

And you would be wrong in your assumption again. This forum is belongs to anyone. You don't own it. Whatever you say is up for public debate.

Don't think that your work difficulties somehow entitle you to another career making the same money. It's obvious you haven't thought some of the more practical matters through.

Do you have value to add to this discussion or just here to harass?

It's a pretty simple topic: "Seeking advice: Clinician Career Change at 45?"

I didn't say I owned the forum. If you're not here to offer any advice as the title indicates, what exactly are you here to do?

If it's to say, "don't enter any clinician profession", so noted. Anything else?

Go back and see where that "swipe" at nurses comes from. You throw a shot, I'll be throwing one right back.

I take no offense that you and others may not like the idea that some may not be here for altruistic motives, but that's irrelevant to me.

You'll receive care from whoever is there when you're unconscious. Not a matter of "accept".

Entitled? I'm not looking for a handout. Nor am I seeking to change any of the requirements. I'll just go through the process like I've done 3 times before in 3 different careers. Like I said, worry less about me, and more about nurses in the profession today with criminal backgrounds.

I may not have HCE nor altruistic motives, but at least I'm no criminal. Maybe you're rather be treated by one of them rather than someone that's entering the profession, opinions differ.

 

[core0]

Don't blame professionals from other fields entering healthcare.

Part of the problem is healthcare itself.

Many of us just want to work on the admin side, but RN or other clinician credential is a requirement. In many cases the healthcare institutions don't even care if you've never worked as RN, they just want the RN license + MBA / MHA / MPH / JD. They also accept PA + the aforementioned professional degrees.

Since clinician credentials is a requirement, many reason, why not just switch over to the clinician side in cases where it may pay better - AA / CRNA

Most of these professionals were making six figures before their jobs were lost to other countries. Expect to see many with such backgrounds working alongside you in as few as 2-3 years...

I'm sure you're probably aware about the number of auto workers now working as MAs, EMTs, etc....

I'll address this one as it seems to go directly to the issue. I think that you have an unrealistic view of how the US medical system works.

First if you are looking for a job that will pay the bills, nursing will definitely do it. Depending on where you live you can look at $20-50 per hour. Now for the downside. The market is currently awful in my opinion. There are jobs out there, but they are generally not in areas that people want to live in. For example in if you go to allnurses you can find a lot of posts about new grads who are unable to get jobs (even in California). If you have experience you can generally find a job but even then its not as easy as it was. At my large academic institution last year the only new grad nurses hired were those on scholarship (hospital was unable to walk away from the money).

Second understand that nursing has some elements of tradecraft. Its physically and mentally demanding. Hospitals work 24/7 and so do nurses. As a new grad you will most likely end up working nights for a while until you get experience to go to days. Its not as easy as it looks on TV. The number of nurses that leave nursing in their first year is over 20% and more than 40% of all nurses are not working in nursing.

Finally the reason that medical management want medical experience is that is what gives you credibility in the workplace. Managers with formal training that can work in the healthcare environment for the most case come from experienced healthcare workers. The number of those that can effectively manage is a smaller subset of the whole.

The other thing to understand is that for every provider there are usually 3-4 people working in support. These range from front desk to schedulers, billers and back office. Generally there are management positions here also, however, medicine remains relatively a small business so many of these management positions are informally trained and poorly compensated. There are well compensated management positions here but they are generally the product of long periods of work in the industry. The managers of the last two practices I worked at had MBAs and had never touched a patient. They did have more than 20 years of progressive experience in the health care industry. Also on the subject of outsourcing, direct patient care positions are generally immune, but the support personnel are vulnerable. Our organization has reduced more than 15% of non-patient care personnel over the last two years. In California its even worse as I understand.

The bottom line is there is no easy button to big money in medicine (as in most of life). In general your pay is going to be related to your experience. You can find isolated examples to the contrary but counting on this is folly - YMMV. Go into medicine because you want to go into medicine - or for the money (acceptable in my mind as long as you are willing to do the work). Don't go into it because you think that its an easy way to make big bucks.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

Endee,

My wife is retraining from architecture to nurse for the same reason, and a friend of hers who used to be in architecture is a CRNA today (and she never did the ICU bit which is puzzling to me). Both report the educational process to be much easier than other majors like architecture, engineering, technology, etc. so I'm not worried about the actual educational process.

You do not know what you do not know. If people without critical care experience are reporting CRNA school is easier than their prior degree, you may want to worry about the educational process IMHO.

 

[deleted6669]

You do not know what you do not know. If people without critical care experience are reporting CRNA school is easier than their prior degree, you may want to worry about the educational process IMHO.

no offense to crna's but did you know there are 11 required cert exams to become a fully licensed architect? it's not uncommon to spend 5+ yrs as an apprentice after graduation before passing all 11.

 

[Endee]

You do not know what you do not know. If people without critical care experience are reporting CRNA school is easier than their prior degree, you may want to worry about the educational process IMHO.

This is definitely worrisome. I wonder what kind of CRNA school wouldn't require critical care experience. If it were one of the many dodgy CRNA programs that isn't really affiliated with a university then I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[deleted6669]

some crna programs also allow folks to sub em experience for critical care as well...I know a few er nurses turned crna's who went that route.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

no offense to crna's but did you know there are 11 required cert exams to become a fully licensed architect? it's not uncommon to spend 5+ yrs as an apprentice after graduation before passing all 11.

That's irrelevant IMHO. If people are saying it's much easier to become a CRNA without any prior experience, I would be concerned about the CRNA educational process. To be fair, I have no idea what CRNA school is like or even how the curriculum is designed.

 

[FireCloud9]

The bottom line is there is no easy button to big money in medicine (as in most of life). In general your pay is going to be related to your experience. You can find isolated examples to the contrary but counting on this is folly - YMMV. Go into medicine because you want to go into medicine - or for the money (acceptable in my mind as long as you are willing to do the work). Don't go into it because you think that its an easy way to make big bucks.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Fair enough. Duly noted.

Mind if I ask how many industries you've worked in besides healthcare?

What industries besides healthcare would you advise people get into given future outlook and prospects? Just throwing around some alternate ideas that perhaps I haven't thought of...

 

[FireCloud9]

You do not know what you do not know. If people without critical care experience are reporting CRNA school is easier than their prior degree, you may want to worry about the educational process IMHO.

No offense PDN, but she has the certifications, education and work experience from both industries, so unless you're an architect that became a CRNA, I I'll rely on her experiences.

 

[FireCloud9]

That's irrelevant IMHO. If people are saying it's much easier to become a CRNA without any prior experience, I would be concerned about the CRNA educational process. To be fair, I have no idea what CRNA school is like or even how the curriculum is designed.

This is her track. She finished her architecture degree while she was a secretary at an ER. Went to work as an architect, didn't like it. Applied for ABSN, got her RN, worked in ER 1 year, applied for MSN, then went to work as CRNA. As I mentioned earlier, nowadays they seem to require 1yr ICU, but she didn't do that. She has been a CRNA for ~ 8yrs? now.

She often mentions how many of her peers express how "hard" healthcare is without ever having worked in other industries / fields.

 

[FireCloud9]

This is definitely worrisome. I wonder what kind of CRNA school wouldn't require critical care experience. If it were one of the many dodgy CRNA programs that isn't really affiliated with a university then I wouldn't be surprised.

Endee, while I think emedpa answered your question below. I submit to you the following question. What kind of healthcare institutions would hire such CRNAs if they were concerned? Apparently getting a job wasn't a problem.

some crna programs also allow folks to sub em experience for critical care as well...I know a few er nurses turned crna's who went that route.

That's the route she went.

 

[jl lin]

And there will be plenty of nurses like me, watching people like you like a hawk.

Classroom work is not the same as working in the trenches. Your wife's grades may be admirable, but good grades don't necessarily mean someone is going to be a good nurse.

I think you should be very concerned what nurses will think of you. You will not be working in a vacuum, and you will need the help of experienced nurses to achieve your goal.

The fact that your interest in health care is, as you said, "close to zilch" makes me fear for your future patients. I'm not one of those nurses who believes the profession is a "calling," but if you have only personal financial gain as your incentive, then you will be sorely disappointed, and so will your patients.

And if you think health care is a safe-haven, I'd urge you to think again. When the budget is up for debate, who do you think winds up getting cut first? Management. You'll find health-care can be just as cut-throat as any business.

No offense fire, but fab's is an excellent response. I must agree on every point made above.


Fire, nursing administrators can make what many call good money. They pay their dues. The ones that don't and are clueless with clinical considerations for nurses make life hell for the rest of nurses. This also affects the patients. Yes working in the trenches matters.

Your situation will rebound. Don't be misled by all the "healthcare's a go" hype. Healthc care is a much tighter market right now than people realize. Sorry but if you aren't committed to it, stay away from it.

Find and do what you love.

People are still making fine money in sales too. Sure it is more specialized, like industrial or pharmaceutical sales. If you have at least a four-year degree and don't mind traveling, you could do quite well for yourself in it. Plenty of pharmaceutical companies are still hiring.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

No offense PDN, but she has the certifications, education and work experience from both industries, so unless you're an architect that became a CRNA, I I'll rely on her experiences.

None taken. However, think about what she told you long and hard the next time you are on your way to the theatre for a surgical procedure.

EDIT: I do want to wish you the best of luck whatever your choice. It is a tough economy and I absolutely want people with extensive educational background going into health care. However, there are many agendas and shady things going on in this world. If getting to work at an advanced level with minimal work seems commonplace for a specific programme or area, please consider it very carefully.

As stated, I do not know much about the CRNA route as that area of nursing has never had much appeal to me personally.

 

[jl lin]

No offense to the AAs, but no AA is putting one of my family members or me down.

When my kids had anesthesia, I barely let CRNAs, which I first interviewed (after I interviewed and spoke with the anesthesiologists that would be supervising) touch my kids, and I am a RN. I wanted to know their experiences, how many cases they did per week, month, and year. You name it. If they had a problem with it, it was bye, bye. Didn't matter if I liked the surgeons. They knew how I felt. Let me tell you, those anesthesiologists I interviewed first were so on the ball and very attentive. Anesthesia is very risky business. I know this because of the kind of nursing I do.

I have to agree that some of this moving of boundaries by mid-levels is very scary stuff. I am loyal to my profession; but thank you no. It's getting out of control.
What I have learned first hand is that mostly clinical time and experience makes the most difference in effectiveness and safety.

 

[FireCloud9]

No offense fire, but fab's is an excellent response. I must agree on every point made above.


Fire, nursing administrators can make what many call good money. They pay their dues. The ones that don't and are clueless with clinical considerations for nurses make life hell for the rest of nurses. This also affects the patients. Yes working in the trenches matters.

Your situation will rebound. Don't be misled by all the "healthcare's a go" hype. Healthc care is a much tighter market right now than people realize. Sorry but if you aren't committed to it, stay away from it.

Find and do what you love.

People are still making fine money in sales too. Sure it is more specialized, like industrial or pharmaceutical sales. If you have at least a four-year degree and don't mind traveling, you could do quite well for yourself in it. Plenty of pharmaceutical companies are still hiring.

Thanks for your opinion. JL. Duly noted. I've been in sales in the past. I'd like to be in the same state / country as my family and see my kids more than once a month. You'll find very few sales people in their 50s in corporate america. I'd like to work well into my 60s.

Healthcare may be a "tighter" market, but one only need look at industry statistics. If someone wants to spends the weeks/months I spent conducting an in-depth analysis, here is one source. http://www.jobbait.com/r/index.html

Feel free to take it and cross reference with pay, future prospects, job security, work longevity, outsourcing, offshoring, automation, and other such variables. Let me know what you conclude.

As to finding something I love, that's never going to happen, that's just not my personality. I don't love work. Few in america do, the majority just do it to put food on the table.

I must be the first person in the U.S. going into healthcare for other than altruistic reasons.

 

[FireCloud9]

No offense to the AAs, but no AA is putting one of my family members or me down.

When my kids had anesthesia, I barely let CRNAs, which I first interviewed (after I interviewed and spoke with the anesthesiologist that would be supervising) touch my kids, and I am a RN. I wanted to know their experiences, how many cases they did per week, month, and year, you name it. If they had a problem with it, it was bye, bye. Didn't matter if I liked the surgeons. They knew how I felt. Let me tell you, those anesthesiologists I interviewed first were so on the ball and very attentive. Anesthesia is very risky business. I know this because of the kind of nursing I do.

I have to agree that some of this moving over by mid-levels is very scary stuff. I am loyal to my profession; but thank you no. It's getting out of control.

We have a relative that is an anesthesiologist - MD - in her early 30s.

I'd rather be put down by an AA or CRNA that had some real life xp, kids, etc.

People that don't know her like we do may trust her, but we know her all too well....