Seeking Guidance Specific to My Situation

[ryan467]

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Greetings.

I've perused this forum off and on over the years, without posting anything. I'm speaking up now, in hopes of finding guidance that applies to my situation. I know that it's customary on discussion forums to research archived threads, prior to beginning one's own, but to be candid, I'm looking for encouragement as much as I am advice. Thanks for understanding.

I was a trouble-child. I misbehaved in school and at home. I was never overtly destructive to people or property by nature, but I did have fairly severe attitude problems, and I was a low-functioning combination of defiant and tender. I was diagnosed as having ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder and some narcissistic features to my personality. I was also identified, by a professional psychologist, as having an IQ in the gifted range, and I was placed in my home state's Talented and Gifted program. Importantly, I have what I think is very good, empirically-based suspicion that the "gifted" distinction was an excessive diagnosis and that my IQ is probably in the superior range, with more of an aptitude for language and less of an aptitude for math. In either case, I don't see myself grasping mathematical or scientific concepts with any particular ease, compared to the types of people who usually become doctors.

I freelanced as a musician for my twenties, working various entry-level jobs to supplement my largely unsuccessful music career, and I joined the Army as a Medic when I was thirty, in an attempt to get a "real job," but was kicked out for a series of conduct-related behaviors. (I'd appreciate each of you withholding your comments on that issue, as it is a sore one. I only mention it to show that, while I do have some fraction of experience in the healthcare field, I am not, that I'm aware of, able to use that experience to further my career). Needless to say, I've been on the far left end of the maturity bell curve, at best, and may have some emotional issues that are just, plain permanent, at worst.

I'm 36 now and am in my second term at a community college. From what I'm told, this particular college's science program is highly reputable. I took an introductory biology class, an algebra class and a weightlifting class last term, and received A's in all three. This term, I'm taking an intermediate chemistry class, another algebra class and political science. I'm getting an A in political science, a B in algebra and a B in chemistry. I'm having difficulty with chemistry, where I get surprisingly low scores on quizzes, and I don't particularly enjoy the subject. I'm also having difficulty in algebra, where my enthusiasm is waning.

My questions are these: Setting aside that it may be unreasonable for someone like me to dream of becoming a doctor, to what degree did those of you who are doctors enjoy chemistry? To what degree did you enjoy math? To what degree did you enjoy studying, in general? In other words, did your journey through undergrad school feel more like a grind or a labor of love?

More personally, do you think that an individual's academic performance is contingent on the health of his social life? (If you're a chronically lonely person, with very little love coming in, should you expect to fare more poorly in school?) To what degree do you think a person can whip himself in to med-school shape, academically, if he doesn't necessarily enjoy chemistry and math? More importantly, do pre-med academics eventually become a labor of love, as skill and confidence are built? (I found this to be the case with the mastering of my musical instrument). Finally, based on the tone of my writing here, and on the things I've mentioned about my life, do you suspect that I'd do better to set my sights on a career other than that as a physician?

Thanks,
ryan467

 

[bearded frog]

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[Chir0nex]

So there is a lot to tackle here and i'll do the best I can to address each question

1. It's fine if you hate your undergrad pre-med courses. I hated parts of gen chem and physics, especially elements that had no real relevance to practicing medicine. To a large degree, undergrad is a grind, and for that matter, lots of your pre-clinical time is a grind as well. The real question is if you can find the energy to get through the grind of undergrand+1 another year of pre-clinical work. If you would be too miserable to do well, then you have to reevaluate, but otherwise it starts getting much better after first year. Also, be prepared to treat studying like a full time job. If you are not willing to spend 8+ hours studying then you will run into issues in medical school. You don't have to love it, but you need to be able to do it effectively.

Also, you do begin to appreciate some basic sceince stuff as it ties into pathology, etc... Ultimately though, it comes down to the individual. Some people learn to love biochem, and some people will shudder whenever they see that section in first aid.



2. I think any personality can do well in medical school, as long as you find a way to alleviate stress. Some people study in groups and are very social, others are basically ghosts within their class, but both types can excel. To some extent this can change once you are in the hosipital, when you are forced to start working with others on a team, but in terms of socializing, you can do whatever you want.

3. As for your situation in general, i think there are some issues you need to consider. First of all, you are currently, 36 and have mot of your pre-requisite classes uncompleted. Lets say that it takes another 2 years to do it all, and take the MCAT, + applying ( this would be a very heavy course load). It is quite possible even under this best case, you will be 39 or so when you enter med school. While there are certainly people who follow this path, it does mean you won;t start making money until your mid 40's. Can you afford that? Will you have to take out loans (and thus spend most of you first 10 years paying off said debt)? Age in of itself is not a problem, but oyu have to consider the financial implications.

Another issue is maturity and ability to deal with frustration. Almost every specialty will have to deal with very frustrating patients who ignore you, challenge you, and generally piss you off. Even worse, you will often have to work on teams with people who annoy you, or screw up and make your life more difficult. You MUST be able to deal with this in a professional manner. You can't blow up in front of a patient, you can't insult your attending. Many times you will be given a ****ty task and have to pretend you like it. This can be difficult for anyone, and you need to really consider if you have worked through your behavior issues enough to handle some very stressful situations.


In conclusion, it is still possible for you to become a doctor, but you have to honestly evaluate yourself. Do you think that you would enjoy chem/bio if it was more medically based? Are you willing to treat studying as a full time job for the next 5 + years of your life, even if it is not super interesting to you? Can you afford to spend that time at school, and not make a full salary until your mid 40's (at the earliest)? Are you willing to deal with being the lowest point of the hierarchy where your superiors are basically always right, even if they may not be? Are you willing to be abused by the very people you are trying to help?

If you can't answer yes to the these questions then you will run into some very real difficulties in medical school and later, and it certainly is not for everyone. If you want to be involved in the medical field there are many other ways to get involved that may fit you better if some of the above aspects are too daunting. The best thing you can do is make sure you are being honest with yourself and find a career that fits who you are, rather than trying to completely change your personality and spend the rest of your life fighting with yourself to get through the day.

 

[hmockingbird]

I'm an M2, and I started med school right out of college, so I don't know a lot about non-trad-specific issues. The most I can tell you is there is a woman in my class who is 40 who made a total career change. She gets along with everyone and is fun to talk to but is busy with her family life so we don't always see as much of her, but on the other hand she is involved with some clubs and helpful for things we younger members of the class might not have as much experience with, like organizing big fundraising events. But personally I majored in English so I thought I could tackle some of the "is it okay if you don't like basic science" questions!

Setting aside that it may be unreasonable for someone like me to dream of becoming a doctor, to what degree did those of you who are doctors enjoy chemistry?

I hate chemistry. Biochemistry is... okay... because it started making more sense to me when I took it in med school (I also took it in college and it was really hard for me then). But, really, the most we do with it is sometimes talk about charges repelling/attracting each other (like with drugs) and lots of acid-base. I don't feel overwhelmed with chemistry-hate with the minimal chemistry we do, even throughout biochem.

To what degree did you enjoy math?

I really like math, we don't do a lot of math though. We had to take a statistics course (no super complicated equations, mostly application) and sometimes we need to memorize and use some basic equations (like Henderson-Hasselbach, how to calculate cardiac output). I assume there might be a little more in actual practice with figuring out dosages and stuff, but still, unless you go into like, radiation oncology where there's a lot of physics, I don't think most doctors use a lot of complicated math.

To what degree did you enjoy studying, in general? In other words, did your journey through undergrad school feel more like a grind or a labor of love? To what degree do you think a person can whip himself in to med-school shape, academically, if he doesn't necessarily enjoy chemistry and math? More importantly, do pre-med academics eventually become a labor of love, as skill and confidence are built?

1. It was a labor of love in that I wanted the end goal enough that it made me focus on studying for classes I didn't like and want to understand them well enough to get a good grade. I do tend to like classes better when I understand the material more, probably just the high of good grades. It was a grind in that I still, absolutely, hate chemistry, and am very bored by basic biology. Those inner preferences never changed, but that's why I didn't go to chemistry or bio grad school.
2. I agree with others that you don't necessarily need to like the basic sciences but you do need to know you will enjoy learning about them in the context of medicine. I've always been a huge medical nerd (reading books, watching medical shows, etc.) so I knew my boredom with the basic science subjects in high school/college had more to do with the fact that I'm not really a science nerd (like plant biology, chemical reactions, etc.) but I would LOVE to learn more detail about how medicine and the body works (like effects of acidic/alkaline blood pH) - not that I would never be interested in those subjects, ever.
3. I love school and have always loved school. If you don't like being in school don't go to med school (or probably any grad school, for that matter). Studying is basically your job, and it doesn't stop when you graduate.

More personally, do you think that an individual's academic performance is contingent on the health of his social life? (If you're a chronically lonely person, with very little love coming in, should you expect to fare more poorly in school?)

I think yes, to an extent. Med school is really stressful and IMO you need to have a good support system, meaning, more than one person. It doesn't have to be people in your med school class and you don't have to see them all the time. But if you try to just go it totally alone, I think you are really putting yourself at risk for a bad situation like an anxiety spiral. You need people to help you keep perspective and also give you a break from med school life. There are plenty of people in our class who mostly or totally study on their own - that all comes down to your studying style - but they all have support in other ways.
Practically, I think it benefits you to be friendly with your classmates, so you can go to them for help if you need it (even if it's just someone to text questions about class material to) and to create a positive working environment during 3rd/4th year. You don't have to make them your best friends though and in my class that tends to vary with personal situations... people who have kids, for example, are a lot less likely to be hanging out with others in the class all the time.

 

[OneDayDoctor]

You may get more advice on WAMC where adcoms who can speak to this tend to lurk.

 

[ryan467]

Wow, wow and more wow. These responses were even better than my best-case-scenario expectations. Thanks, everyone.

What I'm gathering is that the path to becoming a physician, in general, requires an a great deal of psychological resiliency; even more resiliency for a non-traditional student in his mid-thirties. When I ask myself whether I have this sort of resiliency, and whether I could compensate for any lack in natural resiliency with sufficient determination, the answer is complicated, in as much as I probably could push my way through some amount of pre-med curriculum, and maybe even through some med school curriculum, if the planets aligned for me, but not in any natural fashion. My mood and sense of fatigue just waver too much. Some of this wavering is undoubtedly due to my own choices, but some of it is just biological. In fact, I strongly suspect that I lack a "monster-studier" allele or two.

To those who may be reading this and shuddering, because you see yourself in what I'm saying, understand that I don't set myself up for "fun studying" either. There are ways to study that are fun -- studying in a group comes to mind -- but being somewhat of a curmudgeon, I've opted out of the few offers I've had to study corporately. I also have ADHD, which makes studying in to a grind that people without ADHD simply will not understand, unless they've tried studying while on a low dose of crack. So don't give yourself a subjective assessment of your own abilities based on mine.

And again, thanks so much for the insightful responses. You guys definitely went above and beyond here. I'll try posting this in the WAMC forum now, where I'm told members of ADCOM's sometimes lurk, just for the sake of redundancy.

As an aside, what do those of you who've posted here think of the Physician Assistant profession?