Seeking PostDoc/Career Advice

[Mojito_15]

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Hi Everyone,

I haven't posted on here since I did my APPIC applications in 2016, I found a lot of the support and feedback at the time to be helpful so I'm hoping to get some feedback from strangers on the internet again.

I completed an APA accredited internship in 2016-2017. After I completed the internship, I was ABD and I took a non-tenure-track position as an assistant clinical professor for an Ed.S. program in school psychology. I have worked there since fall 2017, and just recently finished my dissertation and doctorate in school psych from an APA program. I know, the dissertation took a long time...

This has left me with some choices. I miss clinical work, I did a lot of mental health work with teens in my APPIC internship. I am also a licensed Ed.S. level school psychologist and did work in schools from 2014-2016. I know I want to finish my postdoc hours and get my clinical license. I also know that we're in the middle of a global pandemic and recession- so leaving a fairly stable job seems like a bad idea. The current job is not great, but it's a pretty stable university for NTT faculty and it's a full-time 9-month contract with benefits and such. My questions are:

1. Should I apply for an APA/APPIC postdoc? More broadly- can I apply? There are some clinical populations I'm really interested in that make some postdocs really appealing. I don't know however if postdocs would consider someone who has had so much time since finishing their internship? Is it worth even applying to these? I know my school psych background was also a challenge in finding an intern position.
2. Should I attempt to do a postdoc on the side with my current job? I think it is probably possible to do this- but I'm not sure how good the training experience will be...
3. Should I just apply to clinical positions without doing a formal postdoc?

I at least am staying at the current job through the 2020-2021 school year. If I applied for full-time postdocs or clinical positions- it would likely be for an August 2021 start. I just started studying am planning to take the EPPP in November- I live in a state where you just need the degree- no postdoc hours- to take the exam. But am holding off on accruing hours until I decide what the best course is for the postdoc.

TLDR: What is the best method to get postdoc hours? Given delay between internship and postdoc, global recession, global pandemic, and school psych background.

Thanks for reading and thoughts!

 

[PsyDr]

I don't even know you, and I'm mad at you.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason for you to not do a post doc. None. Zero. Null. Nialas. I don't even know other words for zero because they're all the same in other languages.

Here's some reasons

1) THIS WAS THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE THING! If becoming a licensed psychologist wasn't the point of your efforts, why didn't you just buy a doctorate from the University of Malta-Phoenix-Sealand for $499.99 and insist everyone call you Dr.? That could have been an afternoon's worth of effort. Which brings me to my next point.

2) Time: Simple math says it's stupid not to. Quitting when you're 19/20ths of the way through? And that last bit is substantially easier than the other bits. You went to school forever, and now you're stopping? That's like trying to give your kid up for adoption at 17. Or divorcing someone when you're 89 years old. Not that this matters, because you'd just lose half your assets which brings me to my next point.

3) Money: You'd make more if you're licensed. And even if you start thinking that mo money does indeed lead to mo problems, I swear to god I'll make you go ask 15 homeless people if that's true. Which leads me to my next point

4) Options: Which situation do you think gives you more options?


Advice:

1) Do a post doc. Do ANY post doc. Do an informal one if you want while working. JUST DO ONE.
2) Take the EPPP as many times as you need to pass it.
3) Get licensed. Even if you don't use it, get it.
4) Get some psychotherapy. Ever seen that part of the Shawshank Redemption where that old guy is all institutionalized and can't imagine being an adult who is responsible for himself?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

To add to some of PsyDr's points above:

• If you're aiming for formal postdocs, are at least want to consider them, the application cycle for 2021 is still a few months away; the APPIC-supported application process is less formalized than internship, but still has some computer-assisted niceties like a single website for requests and submissions of rec letters; the APPIC website should give you information on whether or not you're eligible broadly, I believe
• Whether or not you're eligible for postdocs is likely going to vary from one fellowship to the next; you're just going to need to review the application criteria for each potential fellowship individually. I will say that fellowship applications (outside of neuropsych) generally tend to be less competitive than internship, because those felllowships are competing with jobs that pay better
• A postdoc on the side is certainly an option, you just want to look into the state(s) in which you think you might be licensed so you can ensure your experience will make you eligible; big things to look for are hours of patient care and hours and type (e.g., group, individual, in-person or tele) of supervision; because of the pandemic, many sites have begun using more telesupervision and telehealth, but you have to be careful--that doesn't mean state licensing boards are going to loosen their criteria as to if and how much telesupervision is ok, and whether telehealth "counts" as patient contact; I would go into it assuming the state's requirements will not change. However, I've seen more states make statements about accepting telehealth (although not telephone) patient care than I have statements indicating changes in telesupervision reqs

Like PsyDr mentioned, you've already done the vast majority of the heavy lifting, including completing an APA-accredited internship. I certainly can't speak for you, but I know that if I were in your position, even if it'd be an inconvenience (which it very well might), I'd likely regret getting to where you are and then not taking the additional steps needed to make myself license-eligible.

 

[Mojito_15]

I don't even know you, and I'm mad at you.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason for you to not do a post doc. None. Zero. Null. Nialas. I don't even know other words for zero because they're all the same in other languages.

Here's some reasons

1) THIS WAS THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE THING! If becoming a licensed psychologist wasn't the point of your efforts, why didn't you just buy a doctorate from the University of Malta-Phoenix-Sealand for $499.99 and insist everyone call you Dr.? That could have been an afternoon's worth of effort. Which brings me to my next point.

2) Time: Simple math says it's stupid not to. Quitting when you're 19/20ths of the way through? And that last bit is substantially easier than the other bits. You went to school forever, and now you're stopping? That's like trying to give your kid up for adoption at 17. Or divorcing someone when you're 89 years old. Not that this matters, because you'd just lose half your assets which brings me to my next point.

3) Money: You'd make more if you're licensed. And even if you start thinking that mo money does indeed lead to mo problems, I swear to god I'll make you go ask 15 homeless people if that's true. Which leads me to my next point

4) Options: Which situation do you think gives you more options?


Advice:

1) Do a post doc. Do ANY post doc. Do an informal one if you want while working. JUST DO ONE.
2) Take the EPPP as many times as you need to pass it.
3) Get licensed. Even if you don't use it, get it.
4) Get some psychotherapy. Ever seen that part of the Shawshank Redemption where that old guy is all institutionalized and can't imagine being an adult who is responsible for himself?

Thank you for the advice! Yes, I do want to do a postdoc and become licensed. I already bought EPPP study materials. I like your list though and am going to look at it when I get tired and need to be told to do things.

I was more trying to figure out the most reasonable logistics to do it, especially given the global recession/pandemic and the delay between my internship and postdoc experience. I do understand that may not have been communicated as well as it could have been.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Do it. 100%. Especially if this is not your forever job. As formal of one as you can.

If you are in a state where you can take the EPPP now, get that done sometime prior to starting postdoc (but don't complete the licesure process (state exam, $) so you can bank the postdoc training hours more simply for future use on various things - for instance some states require a minimum # of pre licenseure postdoc hrs).

The answer to question #2 you posed. No. Do a full-time postdoc. Look into adjunct teaching/other things on the side if you want, but keeping your current full time academic job would almost certainly be impossible (with a formal 40 hr/week clinical postdoc schedule).

 

[PsyDr]

Thank you for the advice! Yes, I do want to do a postdoc and become licensed. I already bought EPPP study materials. I like your list though and am going to look at it when I get tired and need to be told to do things.

I was more trying to figure out the most reasonable logistics to do it, especially given the global recession/pandemic and the delay between my internship and postdoc experience. I do understand that may not have been communicated as well as it could have been.

General ideas:

1) an APA approved anything will always be preferable over an informal anything.

2) Depending on your speciality, a formal post doc might be necessary or not.

3) While rough, at some point you’re gonna have to professionally “grow up”. IMO, the method in which protracted training is accomplish in psychology can create some dependency. This is not seen in medicine, but is seen in law. You can train under someone until you retire. Or at some point you’re an independent professional who is engaging in continuing education and seeking supervision as necessary.

What I would do if I were in your shoes (notice how this isn’t advice?):

1) Apply for some formal post docs. See where that goes.

2) At the same time, talk to my connections and explore if any would be willing to do an informal post doc. And then invite some of those leads out for lunch because you always do something nice for someone helping you and lunch is cheap and time defines. Explain what’s going on, establish that they MIGHT be willing to explore that idea, ask what the informal post doc might look like, explain I’m not going to hold them to this discussion, etc. Now you have several options.

3) Have a good think about where I want to live, and where I might want to retire. This would be several states.

4) Do some googling about state requirements and reciprocity so I know how my current plans would affect my future. Having a license that can’t ever move out of one state may have substantial effects on the rest of ones life. Wouldn’t want to meet someone and be unable to move. Wouldn’t want to have the entire idea of semi-retiring to Hawaii be completely off the table

5) Figure out my job situation for the next year.

6) Maybe talk to my employer about part time work or remote work. Can’t hurt. Post docs don’t pay well. Covid19 has opened the door for some remote work.

7) Write all those options down. Weigh the pros and cons.