Seen the statistics about publications, but how many do 4th years actually have?

[pandoraone]

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Going through the NMRP data, a lot of the averages for different specialties are in the range from 3-9 research publications. I know that includes posters, abstracts, ect.

My question is this: how many people have papers (peer-reviewed) when submitting for residency and how many papers do they have? are most people doing research at your school? And when do they do this research?

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Going through the NMRP data, a lot of the averages for different specialties are in the range from 3-9 research publications. I know that includes posters, abstracts, ect.

My question is this: how many people have papers (peer-reviewed) when submitting for residency and how many papers do they have? are most people doing research at your school? And when do they do this research?

It depends on the specialty they are going into. If you are going into a competitive specialty, most people will do some sort of research. It doesn't always lead to publications, but you can still add it as a research experience on ERAS.

At my school, people often do research between first and second year (we have an 8 or 10 week "summer break"). Some will continue to help out with projects as a second year. Fourth year is a great time to continue research/start new projects. My school allows us to take a 1 month research elective during fourth year.

 

[CDI]

It depends on the specialty they are going into. If you are going into a competitive specialty, most people will do some sort of research. It doesn't always lead to publications, but you can still add it as a research experience on ERAS.

At my school, people often do research between first and second year (we have an 8 or 10 week "summer break"). Some will continue to help out with projects as a second year. Fourth year is a great time to continue research/start new projects. My school allows us to take a 1 month research elective during fourth year.

Any idea if research (inc publications, posters, abstracts) done before medical school weigh in at all? Do we have the ability to include that or would that just be ignored completely due to the time-frame? Also, is there anything specific regarding being 1st author (or is having your name show up in PubMed good enough)?

And, just out of curiousity, one month doesn't seem like enough for most research assignments. I'm curious as to how beneficial that is.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Any idea if research (inc publications, posters, abstracts) done before medical school weigh in at all? Do we have the ability to include that or would that just be ignored completely due to the time-frame? Also, is there anything specific regarding being 1st author (or is having your name show up in PubMed good enough)?

And, just out of curiousity, one month doesn't seem like enough for most research assignments. I'm curious as to how beneficial that is.

Research before medical school can help and can be included on you ERAS. I had a few people on my residency interviews ask me about research I did between undergrad and med school.

There is no specific designation in ERAS to say that you were 1st author, but you do list aurthors for articles, so if you were first, obviously you can put your self as the first one listed.

True that one month is not a significant amount of time for research, but it was helpful for a couple of reasons. It counts as a research experience in your ERAS, and if you have been working on a project throughout medical school, it is a great month to dedicate solely to your research. Chances are that you will not hop on and finish a project in that month, but it is still good experience anyway.

 

[CDI]

Research before medical school can help and can be included on you ERAS. I had a few people on my residency interviews ask me about research I did between undergrad and med school.

There is no specific designation in ERAS to say that you were 1st author, but you do list aurthors for articles, so if you were first, obviously you can put your self as the first one listed.

True that one month is not a significant amount of time for research, but it was helpful for a couple of reasons. It counts as a research experience in your ERAS, and if you have been working on a project throughout medical school, it is a great month to dedicate solely to your research. Chances are that you will not hop on and finish a project in that month, but it is still good experience anyway.

My research was while in high school and continued into undergrad. The publications were in US journals (obviously not first author). I just don't think I have the time to get back into research this year before I apply. It seems that publications only really have weightage once your Step scores are high enough though. I guess that's what I should be focused on. Thanks for the explanation!

 

[notbobtrustme]

Publications include things like theses, abstracts, posters (even if it's just your undergrad's research presentation), etc etc. The number is extremely inflated compared to what people normally consider publications (aka peer-reviewd articles, posters at national conferances).

 

[CDI]

Publications include things like theses, abstracts, posters (even if it's just your undergrad's research presentation), etc etc. The number is extremely inflated compared to what people normally consider publications (aka peer-reviewd articles, posters at national conferances).

I see. I just figured there would be more weight to something that was peer-reviewed. Maybe there is no distinction, I haven't seen ERAS or how it all works so I have no idea really.

 

[Bojack Horseman]

I see. I just figured there would be more weight to something that was peer-reviewed. Maybe there is no distinction, I haven't seen ERAS or how it all works so I have no idea really.

I'm sure program directors can see through bs. Surely they get a lot of practice looking through applications.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

I see. I just figured there would be more weight to something that was peer-reviewed. Maybe there is no distinction, I haven't seen ERAS or how it all works so I have no idea really.

ERAS does have an option when listing publications as to whether or not they are in peer-reviewed journals. Some places might put more emphasis on whether or not it was in a peer-reviewed journal or article vs poster presentation, etc. Others will simply chalk it up as research.

 

[Aclamity]

woah I didn't know that the "publications" statistic in NRMP represented more than just peer-reviewed pubs. So when people talk about "research experiences" are they referring to "research projects"? i.e. if I do 3 projects in my PI's lab does that count as 3 "experiences" in terms of ERAS?

What about lectures/talks you give pertaining to your research but not exactly presenting your research (so not at a national conf or anything, but a short lecture given to residents/faculty)?

What about research in a field unrelated to medicine? In undergrad I did research in botany and got a pub out of it. Would I just look stupid if I try to list it?

Finally, anyone know how many pubs is considered "adequate" for a competitive field like a surgical subspecialty?

 

[CDI]

ERAS does have an option when listing publications as to whether or not they are in peer-reviewed journals. Some places might put more emphasis on whether or not it was in a peer-reviewed journal or article vs poster presentation, etc. Others will simply chalk it up as research.

Oh wow. Had no idea that was the case. Glad to hear that those will be worth something, even if very minimal. I just want to get a spot in IM (anywhere) so whatever helps...

 

[Stellar Clouds]

woah I didn't know that the "publications" statistic in NRMP represented more than just peer-reviewed pubs. So when people talk about "research experiences" are they referring to "research projects"? i.e. if I do 3 projects in my PI's lab does that count as 3 "experiences" in terms of ERAS?

What about lectures/talks you give pertaining to your research but not exactly presenting your research (so not at a national conf or anything, but a short lecture given to residents/faculty)?

What about research in a field unrelated to medicine? In undergrad I did research in botany and got a pub out of it. Would I just look stupid if I try to list it?

Finally, anyone know how many pubs is considered "adequate" for a competitive field like a surgical subspecialty?

Publications and research experience are 2 different things on ERAS. Even though you worked on 3 different projects, it would probably be better if you counted it as a single research experience. It will probably look silly/desperate if you put the same PI, dates, and institution for 3 research experiences. If you were published 3 times (1 from each project), you would have 3 publications in addition to the research experience.

I think if it was a formal talk/lecture or something like a grand rounds presentation it could be counted.

I would put your undergrad research/pubs. It shows that you've had a strong commitment to research for a long time.

Check out NRMP's charting outcomes to see the number of publications and research experiences that people have when they match.

Make sure that if you list something under research that you know it like the back of your hand. Interviewers will ask you to explain your research to them. Some people might even know more about your research than you would expect them to know (even if it is some obscure botany research).

 

[notbobtrustme]

woah I didn't know that the "publications" statistic in NRMP represented more than just peer-reviewed pubs. So when people talk about "research experiences" are they referring to "research projects"? i.e. if I do 3 projects in my PI's lab does that count as 3 "experiences" in terms of ERAS?

What about lectures/talks you give pertaining to your research but not exactly presenting your research (so not at a national conf or anything, but a short lecture given to residents/faculty)?

What about research in a field unrelated to medicine? In undergrad I did research in botany and got a pub out of it. Would I just look stupid if I try to list it?

Finally, anyone know how many pubs is considered "adequate" for a competitive field like a surgical subspecialty?

There's really no such thing as bad research, especially if you came out with a pub at the end. Research is more than just doing stuff in your field, it also demonstrates logical thinking, planning and critical analysis.

As for how much is enough, it really depends. No one can give you a good answer because there are no good answers. The general consensus is that Step I + 3rd year + LORs far outweigh anything else. Research will push you over the hump when compared to another similarly match individual without research, IMO, at least.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

There's really no such thing as bad research, especially if you came out with a pub at the end. Research is more than just doing stuff in your field, it also demonstrates logical thinking, planning and critical analysis.

As for how much is enough, it really depends. No one can give you a good answer because there are no good answers. The general consensus is that Step I + 3rd year + LORs far outweigh anything else. Research will push you over the hump when compared to another similarly match individual without research, IMO, at least.

Although I almost entirely agree with you, it does depend on the specialty. You are pretty much required to have research in the absolute most competitive specialties.

 

[Etorphine]

Relax, guys. Most of the statistics are off because people count things like "posters" and "presentations" as publications. Even for the competitive specialties, there are so many that have NO research and get in fine. Just focus on your classes, and then in 3rd year think about typing up a case report or two. You'll be fine.

 

[kwel]

Publications and research experience are 2 different things on ERAS. Even though you worked on 3 different projects, it would probably be better if you counted it as a single research experience. It will probably look silly/desperate if you put the same PI, dates, and institution for 3 research experiences. If you were published 3 times (1 from each project), you would have 3 publications in addition to the research experience.

I'm always confused by this. They report "mean number of research experiences" as if having a lot of different experiences in multiple labs with multiple PIs is better than staying with one PI for 3-4 years.

 

[CDI]

I'm always confused by this. They report "mean number of research experiences" as if having a lot of different experiences in multiple labs with multiple PIs is better than staying with one PI for 3-4 years.

That's strange. You'd think if a PI is inviting you back and you're doing continued research for a while that distinction would be beneficial.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Relax, guys. Most of the statistics are off because people count things like "posters" and "presentations" as publications. Even for the competitive specialties, there are so many that have NO research and get in fine. Just focus on your classes, and then in 3rd year think about typing up a case report or two. You'll be fine.

Not entirely ture.
Lets take derm for example:

In 2011, 308 US Seniors matched. Only 15/308 had 0 research projects and only 17/308 had 0 publications.

ENT:
In 2011, 267 US Seniors matched. Only 3/267 had 0 research projects and only 19/267 had 0 publications.

Plastics:
In 2011, 74 US Seniors matched. Only 2/74 had 0 research projects and only 4/74 had 0 publications.

RadOnc:
In 2011, 154 US Seniors matched. Only 1/154 had 0 research projects and only 7/154 had 0 publications.

 

[Staradmiral]

I dislike how charting outcomes using simply the number of research experience. Surely 1 year of dedicated work on the same project would be better than three one month projects? Right?

 

[lazers]

I dislike how charting outcomes using simply the number of research experience. Surely 1 year of dedicated work on the same project would be better than three one month projects? Right?

not necessarily

 

[Medstart108]

Not entirely ture.
Lets take derm for example:

In 2011, 308 US Seniors matched. Only 15/308 had 0 research projects and only 17/308 had 0 publications.

ENT:
In 2011, 267 US Seniors matched. Only 3/267 had 0 research projects and only 19/267 had 0 publications.

Plastics:
In 2011, 74 US Seniors matched. Only 2/74 had 0 research projects and only 4/74 had 0 publications.

RadOnc:
In 2011, 154 US Seniors matched. Only 1/154 had 0 research projects and only 7/154 had 0 publications.

I agree with that research is important. But one explanation for why the numbers are so low is because the majority of applicants to these programs have probably done research at some point in their entire career. These are only people with 0 research projects. If you did a short stint in research during undergrad, that would count you out of the data.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

I agree with that research is important. But one explanation for why the numbers are so low is because the majority of applicants to these programs have probably done research at some point in their entire career. These are only people with 0 research projects. If you did a short stint in research during undergrad, that would count you out of the data.

The original statement was that people who do zero research still get into competitive specialties. I agree that some of these people who did research may have only done it in undergrad, but the fact of the matter is that people with zero research are by far in the minority in these selected competitive specialties.

 

[pandoraone]

It depends on the specialty they are going into. If you are going into a competitive specialty, most people will do some sort of research. It doesn't always lead to publications, but you can still add it as a research experience on ERAS.

At my school, people often do research between first and second year (we have an 8 or 10 week "summer break"). Some will continue to help out with projects as a second year. Fourth year is a great time to continue research/start new projects. My school allows us to take a 1 month research elective during fourth year.

Do people at many schools do research in the first year? It seems like th 1st summer is the only real time stuff gets done. And if you do stuff in 4th year isnt it too late?

 

[notbobtrustme]

Do people at many schools do research in the first year? It seems like th 1st summer is the only real time stuff gets done. And if you do stuff in 4th year isnt it too late?

3rd years can get in on some data mining/case reports to bump their residency applications up.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Do people at many schools do research in the first year? It seems like th 1st summer is the only real time stuff gets done. And if you do stuff in 4th year isnt it too late?

A few people get some in the second half of first year, but most people are still struggling with time management skills to be able to dedicate extra time to research.

It's not too late to include it on ERAS if your research is done in July, August, or September of fourth year.

 

[psychmdhopeful]

I'm always confused by this. They report "mean number of research experiences" as if having a lot of different experiences in multiple labs with multiple PIs is better than staying with one PI for 3-4 years.

I was wondering the same thing. According to the NRMP Matching Outcomes, applicants for a competitive specialty (like Ortho) had ~3 mean number of research experiences, 4.5 publications/posters/abstracts, and ~6 volunteer experiences.

It doesn't make much sense to me that people had time during medical school to get involved in so many different experiences, unless they all lasted a short period of time. Are applicants putting down a good portion of their experiences before med. school even though it might not relate to their chosen specialty?

 

[DrEnderW]

This may be a naive question (I apologize), but does anyone know if publications and poster presentations at conferences from undergrad/ gap years can be used when applying for residency?

Thanks.

 

[notbobtrustme]

This may be a naive question (I apologize), but does anyone know if publications and poster presentations at conferences from undergrad/ gap years can be used when applying for residency?

Thanks.

yes.

 

[CDI]

I was wondering the same thing. According to the NRMP Matching Outcomes, applicants for a competitive specialty (like Ortho) had ~3 mean number of research experiences, 4.5 publications/posters/abstracts, and ~6 volunteer experiences.

It doesn't make much sense to me that people had time during medical school to get involved in so many different experiences, unless they all lasted a short period of time. Are applicants putting down a good portion of their experiences before med. school even though it might not relate to their chosen specialty?

I think a lot of these people have stuff in undergrad or even prior to undergrad to make them competitive for med school/straight med programs right out of high school.

I bet "volunteer" experiences include things like helping out for a clinic on some random weekend health fair, or helping out at an event, like a race.

The one which would be tougher to get is getting in peer-reviewed journals, but even that some people manage to get in while still in high school (although much fewer).