selecting a med school and thinking of residency issues

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seethrew

seethrew

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hey y'all. heres a fun boring thread. i am havin great difficulty deliberatin on school to attend next year. having problems assessing cost-benefit-fun factor, which is totally personal i assume.

what i don't really understand, and what i may not be able to answer until i become more focused on my ultimate residency genre, is if one of these places would be clearly advantageous in residency matching. i also am concerned about the quality of rotation experience, which i have found information hard to gather.

what difference does a prestigous match really make?

i have no research experience, and dont *expect* to head that way...

any opinions would be effin awesome. 😉

lookin at: pitt, uva, tulane, wake (from least to most expensive - prolly would only go to wake if got infamous BOG award which would cover tuition)
not pa or va resident, so its all private rates, save fer awards.
 
None of those schools are going to hold you back, so far as I know, so I suggest going where you think you'll have the best support system of friends/family/outside interests.

Congratulations on your acceptance.
 
Don't forget, "private" tuition rates only apply for the year you are not a resident. Wherever you move, make it your first priority to get a driver's license in that state, register to vote, pay taxes where applicable, etc. The day you establish residency, tell your school and pay in state resident rates. Cost should not factor too heavily in your decision.

Prestige will be helpful for attaining any residency you apply to (and may be very helpful for prestigious programs, but ultimately go to the school that offers what you want outside of the classroom. You will learn the same material wherever you go. Just be sure to study hard, be involved, and look with your options wide open. You will be fine in any specialty wherever you go!
 
Having just reviewed the incredible debt I'm in, go to the cheapest school you get into.

Take care,
Jeff
 
Go to the school you feel you would be happiest at (which is hopefully the cheapest one as well). While the prestige factor does have a small role in residency placement, none of these schools is significantly different from each other to make a difference come residency match time.
 
You don't establish residency while matriculating in a school full time. If this was the case, everyone would be in-state after the first year. Unless you defer a year and move there and not attend school full time or take a year off after first year, you will remain out of state.

As Dr. Cox said, I don't see any huge differences between these schools. UNLESS, you knew you wanted to do anesthesia, for example, Wake is very strong.
 
Go to the cheapest school in the best location..youll get into a good residency in you perform well at any of these places. 🙂
 
sometimes being in school (assuming you live off-campus) will establish residency. It varies from state to state.

Pitt is by far the strongest of the 4, but UVA is no slouch either. Have you considered your state school?
 
to clarify: i am speaking of residency (internship) not state of residency. at this point i will be a NC resident in a few months. virginia is a state that is impossible to gain residency in - i have checked, u need to like marry a virginian.

right now the cheapest option is in the crappiest location - pitt. but a great school. (by crappy i mean cloudy - cloudy makes me sad these days) of course if i get the mother of all scholarships at wake i will most likely go there. too bad they don't tell me till after i need to pick a school. sux. 🙁

*sigh*

why is this such a hard decision!

EDIT: yes, my state school is UNC, but i was an out of stater for interviews and have been placed on the waitlist.
 
If you are worried about residency placement, i would check out each schools match lists over the past several years. This way you can see where and what (in general) people matched into. Of course there is no guarantee where you will match, but its nice to see how others before you have done.
 
Check out the individual requirements for state residency where you go - in most places professional school can qualify as a "job" that will count toward residency status (and in state-tuition). By the time I graduated everyone in my school was a resident of that state, and only one person paid more than one semester of out-of-state tuition.
 
seethrew said:
to clarify: i am speaking of residency (internship) not state of residency. at this point i will be a NC resident in a few months. virginia is a state that is impossible to gain residency in - i have checked, u need to like marry a virginian.

right now the cheapest option is in the crappiest location - pitt. but a great school. (by crappy i mean cloudy - cloudy makes me sad these days) of course if i get the mother of all scholarships at wake i will most likely go there. too bad they don't tell me till after i need to pick a school. sux. 🙁

*sigh*

why is this such a hard decision!

EDIT: yes, my state school is UNC, but i was an out of stater for interviews and have been placed on the waitlist.
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imo cloudy=lame excuse

Pittsburgh has plenty of sunny days and you'll be in the hospital/library too much to care anyway.
 
chicamedica said:
imo cloudy=lame excuse

Pittsburgh has plenty of sunny days and you'll be in the hospital/library too much to care anyway.
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r u at pitt? if so perhaps u can give better info than that criticism. 🙄 although i preciate yer candor. like... do u have any opinions about the city?

according to some google action pitt has 59 sunny days a year. seattle has 58. i am sorry but sunlight is important to me these days dood. i wish i wasnt so human, it would make my decision easier. and i do plan on being outside, otherwise i might as well shoot myself now. yeah, i'll be in the hospital/library, but i plan on having some shred of a personal life outside of school even if it means not gettin high pass every class. *shocking* 😎 :laugh:

EDIT: also, i have looked at match lists but i dont know how to interpet the information. i do not know enough about what are good matches fer certain genres. like for example, i was all impressed that this cardio fellow did his IM at mayo out of tulane, but later was told that mayos IM isnt that strong? so much info i do not know. match lists are useless to me other than real obvious high powered stuff. 😱
 
When everything is said and done, in terms of residency placement, all those schools are pretty much equal. In fact, about 90% of the schools out there could be considered equal in that department. Don't sweat over this, it is really splitting hairs. Pick which ever school you will be the happiest at, whether that be by spending more time with family/friends, laying out in the sun more often, or not gettting into too much debt (remember cost of living expenses, not just tuition). Good luck!
 
any opinions on UT Southwestern and U Mich. I am a Texas resident.
-Thanx in advance
 
Same reasoning applies for your situation also. I was in your situation once; trying to decide between U Mich and my state school. I ended up picking my state school based on financial factors and family/friends. Many times I wondered what it would have been like to have gone to Michigan.

Nevertheless, if I went to Michigan, my debt would have been well above 100K, but now it is much less than 100K. And I got the residency of my dreams.

But don't pick something just based on money and family/friends. Go with your gut. If you have been itching to leave and go very far away, then go for it. Or, just do the comfortable thing. It will all work out.
 
adiddy1422 said:
any opinions on UT Southwestern and U Mich. I am a Texas resident.
-Thanx in advance
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That's a no-brainer then. Texas state tuition is among the lowest in the country. Go to Dallas.

As a Texas resident, you've got tons of good choices. Each school here has its own flavor. Interview at them and see which provides the best fit for you. Just keep the bottom line in mind: MD = good from almost any US school. Low tuition = outstanding!

Take care and good luck,
Jeff
 
While advice is being given . . . if comparing a school like wake to a school like Univ of South Carolina - would it matter for residency? I'm interested in EM or Sports Med most likely. Cost is pretty much the same, since I am not a South Carolina resident. Most of my friends from undergrad are in South Carolina - as I attended USC. Its tough to decide between friends, s-o, and a school with a better ranking - atleast according to US News . . . Any advice would be excellent!
 
I have been told by several faculty members that unless you're going to a top 10 or bottom 10 program, your school really will not matter too much in residency placement. Most programs place a lot of weight on objective measures such as USMLE scores. It is much more important that you do well wherever you are. I recommend going someplace with the following characterisitics.

(1) Curriculum consistent with your learning style. If you need lectures, a problem-based learning curriculum will not suit you well. It is hard to do well when the curriculum doesn't fit you.

(2) Cost. I went to an expensive school because of few other options. I am choosing to go into peds and am concerned about my level of debt. It sucks that debt is a factor causing me to second-guess my career choice, but it is a reality. Oh by the way, I would not recommend doing an armed forces scholarship or primary care scholarship if there is any doubt that you may want to subspecilaize sometime down the line.

(3) Fun. It is easier to learn when you enjoy what you are doing.

Overall, go where you think you will be happy and work your tail off wherever you go. None of the schools you listed are particularly prestigious but they are all solid programs, so the decision will have little to do with your future prospect for success. Good luck.
 
Hey I Am Having The Same Problem Deciding Which Medical School I Want To Attend. I Am Trying To Decide Between Medical College Of Georgia And Mercer University...both Of Which Are In Georgia. I Do Feel Like Medical College Of Georgia Has Alot More Prestige But I Believe I Will Like Mercer's Small Atmosphere Better; However, I Want To Go To The Place That Will Help Me In The Long Run. Do Y'all Think It Is Better To Be Higher In A Small School Like Mercer Or Get Lost In The Middle Of The Class At A More Prestigious Large School Like Mcg? Mercer Does Not Give Grades In The 1st 2 Years...just Pass Or Fail? Does This Matter To Get Into Residency? Will Either School Help Me Get Into A Better Residency?
 
UTSW v Michigan is really an easy decision in my mind. UTSW is a top-notch school, and the tuition is incredibly cheap. Unless Michigan has some outside draw for you, choose UTSW in my opinion but again this is a personal choice. What fits best.

To the person who started this thread, I would analyze the kind of students you met at the school and the people you met at interviews. These are your future classmates, and they greatly influence your experience. If you do not know your specialty, it is very hard to make a choice based on residency. The reputation of your med school (particularly since these 4 that are fairly equal) is not as important as your personal effort and qualifications.
If you are still having a hard time deciding, here are some smaller things to think about, and one really is weather, another is cost (as previously mentioned, in-state is important, debt effects specialty choice options), transportation, living options and living expenses. Don't regret your choice. You sound like an excellent student and will do fine wherever you go.
 
triciatmd said:
Hey I Am Having The Same Problem Deciding Which Medical School I Want To Attend. I Am Trying To Decide Between Medical College Of Georgia And Mercer University...both Of Which Are In Georgia. I Do Feel Like Medical College Of Georgia Has Alot More Prestige But I Believe I Will Like Mercer's Small Atmosphere Better; However, I Want To Go To The Place That Will Help Me In The Long Run. Do Y'all Think It Is Better To Be Higher In A Small School Like Mercer Or Get Lost In The Middle Of The Class At A More Prestigious Large School Like Mcg? Mercer Does Not Give Grades In The 1st 2 Years...just Pass Or Fail? Does This Matter To Get Into Residency? Will Either School Help Me Get Into A Better Residency?
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Hi there,
Go to the school that you can perform best at. If you choose a school for prestige and end up not doing well because you hate the school, hate the curriculum and your classmates, the prestige factor will be meaningless. In the end, your performance in academics and your board scores are going to be the major determinants of what kind of residency you will get. Even if your school gives P/F on your transcript, they will have a means of ranking you so don't be fooled by P/F grading. Go where you believe you can fit in best and do your best.
nbjmd 🙂
 
UTSW vs. Michigan.

Yeah, both very good schools with strong reputation. Michigan is a tad bit overrated and it's strong reputation holds up primarily in the Midwest. My feelings is that UTSW's reputation is regional as well.

You can't go wrong by going to UTSW over Michigan or Michigan over UTSW. I agree with the above posters who advise you to go where you will be happy and will perform well.

One note about reputation. It seems that reputation helps you IF you have done well in med school. Reputation is not gonna save your ass if you slacked off all throughout med school and got poor grades and boards scores. Irregardless, reputation of your med school is a very small aspect of your overall application when you are looking at residencies.

Wherever you go, strive to do your best. And for your patients' sake, learn something 🙂
 
seethrew said:
r u at pitt? if so perhaps u can give better info than that criticism. 🙄 although i preciate yer candor. like... do u have any opinions about the city?

according to some google action pitt has 59 sunny days a year. seattle has 58. i am sorry but sunlight is important to me these days dood. i wish i wasnt so human, it would make my decision easier. and i do plan on being outside, otherwise i might as well shoot myself now. yeah, i'll be in the hospital/library, but i plan on having some shred of a personal life outside of school even if it means not gettin high pass every class. *shocking* 😎 :laugh:
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I am from the Pittsburgh area, and we have more than 59 days of sunlight. So don't not consider Pitt just because you think you won't get any sun.

I don't know anything about the other places you want to go or about the cities they are in, and I may be biased because I am from here, but Pittsburgh is a great city. It's not NYC, but it's a nicer smaller city with nice people and lots of different things to do. And both Pitt and the UPMC hospitals are excellent. And we have the Stillers! 😉

Just my two cents' worth. 🙂
 
Med school rankings... 😡 :barf:

It's all crap. The only thing it really matters for is WHERE you think you want to do your residency and ultimately practice. Going to UTSW isn't going to do you much good if you want to do your residency in Minnesota. You could probably go to most any other university in the south and have the same result. But if you are staying in texas, you might meet people who will give you good recs, and you will learn more about all the programs.

Nobody really cares where you go to med school. They care if you are hard working, going to apply yourself, and aren't going to skip out of residency early, try to transfer, or break any rules. "Top 10" schools tend to have impressive looking match lists because they attract the top candidates who all buy into the fact that they have to go to a "top 10" school in order to match at a "top 10" residency. But put this same applicant at a "Middle tier" school and things aren't going to change.

Pick your med school based on where you want to go and where you will be happy, not on someone's arbitrary rankings.
 
yaah said:
Med school rankings... 😡 :barf:

It's all crap. The only thing it really matters for is WHERE you think you want to do your residency and ultimately practice. Going to UTSW isn't going to do you much good if you want to do your residency in Minnesota. You could probably go to most any other university in the south and have the same result. But if you are staying in texas, you might meet people who will give you good recs, and you will learn more about all the programs.

Nobody really cares where you go to med school. They care if you are hard working, going to apply yourself, and aren't going to skip out of residency early, try to transfer, or break any rules. "Top 10" schools tend to have impressive looking match lists because they attract the top candidates who all buy into the fact that they have to go to a "top 10" school in order to match at a "top 10" residency. But put this same applicant at a "Middle tier" school and things aren't going to change.

Pick your med school based on where you want to go and where you will be happy, not on someone's arbitrary rankings.
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This is a great post. Not only do the students at a "top 10" buy into the fact that they have to go to a "top 10" residency too. They also buy into the notion of not even considering a primary care field and go right for the high-powered subspecialty fields (derm, ENT, rads, etc...) and sadly, due to their hefty loan burden, they are forced into these fields because the pay of a primary care doc will not put too much of a dent into their small fortune student loans.

Students at "top 10s'" also have the mentality of being gunners and will not settle for anything less than a "top 10" residency. So, considering all these factors, when you look at a match-list of a "top 10", the school's name is only playing a small fraction on where these people are going.
 
Yep. Really the only people who care about "top 10" are the people who go there and the admissions directors of the schools, because they know that by being labeled "top 10" more students will want to come there. Graduates of said schools will often perpetuate the dogma in order to perhaps justify their reason for turning down a lower cost alternative. So the whole ranking system isn't going away - because people will always focus on it as a way to compare schools, even if it doesn't mean diddly squat for the individual student.
 
thanks everyone... i wish the new pre-allos will read this thread. when i first decided to go to med school i was like - any place that takes me i'd be stoked to go to. then i have so many nice choices... i turned into a monster. or at least felt like one. analysing every detail, afraid to chose poorly after so much success... but i found i truly had a soft spot for tulane and thought that it was a done deal....

the funny part is - after all my painful deliberating, in one week i end up getting of the outofstate waitlist at unc, get instate status, and then get a whopper of an awesome scholarship that covers tuition + stipend. this is fantastic, since initially unc was the school of my choice - near my yankee transplanted family, affordable, yadadada. but i had soul searched and decided on tulane, wit all those neat creative peeps and spicy cajun city... so i am feelin a little mixed up.

but honestly i think i would be a fool to turn down unc! even tho i don't really feel as if i know as much about the school in terms of people feng shui and lord knows where exactly i want to be resident or live - that all seems so far away. (i know it will go fast.) so i guess i'll go wit the quality, dirt-cheap option, in a beautiful area, and the access to ncaa tix. perhaps not as exciting as nola. but i'll spend at least $100 - $140K less. thats a lot of effin jumbalaya. *sigh* still hard to do tho. damn i love zydeco. 😍

thanks again for input folks... i think this is the first time i have seen u outside the lounge yaah - well said dood. 😉
 
Never underestimate the value of a smaller loan amount. You come out way ahead of the game if you can finish med school with $140 less in debt! I went to UMass, where tuition is under $10k, because all the students are mass residents. I could not for the life of me EVER figure out why people would turn down UMass to go to Harvard or another private school. It made no sense - people from my class matched as well as Harvard students, only they didn't all go for the gunner residencies, so the match list doesn't look as "impressive."

Here's the thing - another $140k over four years? You could go to NO every weekend for less then that if the city is such an attraction!
 
yaah said:
Never underestimate the value of a smaller loan amount. You come out way ahead of the game if you can finish med school with $140 less in debt! I went to UMass, where tuition is under $10k, because all the students are mass residents. I could not for the life of me EVER figure out why people would turn down UMass to go to Harvard or another private school. It made no sense - people from my class matched as well as Harvard students, only they didn't all go for the gunner residencies, so the match list doesn't look as "impressive."

Here's the thing - another $140k over four years? You could go to NO every weekend for less then that if the city is such an attraction!
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Some non-gunners like "gunner" residencies and are not cocky enough (ironically) to think they don't need every advantage to get where they want to go.
 
yaah said:
Yep. Really the only people who care about "top 10" are the people who go there and the admissions directors of the schools, because they know that by being labeled "top 10" more students will want to come there. Graduates of said schools will often perpetuate the dogma in order to perhaps justify their reason for turning down a lower cost alternative. So the whole ranking system isn't going away - because people will always focus on it as a way to compare schools, even if it doesn't mean diddly squat for the individual student.
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I didn't go to a "Top 10" med school either, but I'm also not petty enough to bash students who decide to do so. I'd be willing to bet you didn't get accepted to Harvard but would have gone if you had been. I don't know, I could be wrong. I just picked up a lot of bitterness from your recent posts that I think makes unfair generalizations.
 
sublimazerules said:
I didn't go to a "Top 10" med school either, but I'm also not petty enough to bash students who decide to do so. I'd be willing to bet you didn't get accepted to Harvard but would have gone if you had been. I don't know, I could be wrong. I just picked up a lot of bitterness from your recent posts that I think makes unfair generalizations.
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Oh for pete's sake. I am not bashing everyone who goes there. I am bashing people who glorify their school's ranking and use it as evidence that they are a more qualified future doctor than someone else. This is always the "argument" that I see from people - you must not have gotten into harvard...you're jealous of people who go there... blah blah. That's a very tired and condescending argument. What I am saying is that people need to not focus so much on the ranking of their school in the eyes of others because it doesn't make much difference. If you choose to go to the school because you want to, whether it is because you are interested in researching with someone or you have a connection to the school, of course you should! I have just seen too many people turn down lower cost alternatives to go to an elite school and their only rationale seems to be "It's a top 10 school." During med school and residency I have done rotations at many institutions and have met people from many different med schools - you can't tell where they went based on anything unless they tell you or they are wearing a pin or tee shirt.

If you care about the school for reasons other than it's reputation, then obviously, go for it. You don't need to put words in my mouth.

I would not have gone to harvard. I got into UMass early on and gave up on the rest of my applications. And it certainly didn't deter my residency applications at all.
 
Fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate....hate leads to...suffffferrrringgggggg.
 
hey yaah... i think its pretty funny that now i have to make *another* tricky decision and find myself caught in the allure of a *prestigous* school. i feel so very weak. 😱 hahaha. :laugh: i just got off the duke waitlist. what an interesting and bizarre group of people there. well, since they have so much funding maybe they can show me good $$$. (new orleans and chapel hill are much cooler than durham tho...) 🙄

my friend who was class of 91 (i think) says that the prestige factor is mostly useful there, in terms of residency, for research and super dooper competitive residencies. she says youll get an interview anywhere, but not necessarily get in.

she had an interesting view. was a harvard undergrad and said that *that* was totally worth it - that the air you breathe there is filled with possibility and people there are consistently doing the impossible. in terms of medical school - her particular goals were not aligned exactly with duke and does not recommend the place without much criticism. so i found it interesting that a seasoned ivy student would sorta support what y'all are saying. yes, there are advantages, but if you will be happier choosing a school that suits - "your" rankings. hrm.
 
seethrew said:
she had an interesting view. was a harvard undergrad and said that *that* was totally worth it - that the air you breathe there is filled with possibility and people there are consistently doing the impossible. in terms of medical school - her particular goals were not aligned exactly with duke and does not recommend the place without much criticism. so i found it interesting that a seasoned ivy student would sorta support what y'all are saying. yes, there are advantages, but if you will be happier choosing a school that suits - "your" rankings. hrm.
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I agree with this view. I went to an Ivy for undergrad and thought it was worth every penny. I think this was "worth" more for me at that time. I say "worth" because undergrad is something that will shape you as an adult forever. You learn a heck of a lot more about Life in undergrad than medical school.

I ended up going to my state school for med school and was completely satisfied. The way I look at it is that med school is almost like a trade school or a vocational school. You learn a specialized "trade" and then you go on with your life. Med school may have "thickened my skin," but in regards to living life as an independent adult, I think I took a step backward.
 
seethrew said:
she had an interesting view. was a harvard undergrad and said that *that* was totally worth it - that the air you breathe there is filled with possibility and people there are consistently doing the impossible. in terms of medical school - her particular goals were not aligned exactly with duke and does not recommend the place without much criticism. so i found it interesting that a seasoned ivy student would sorta support what y'all are saying. yes, there are advantages, but if you will be happier choosing a school that suits - "your" rankings. hrm.
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Well, it does seem to be important for research-type residencies, but in general that is because people coming from state schools are less likely to be on that track. I think sometimes people misinterpret the fact that fewer state school grads match into competitive, research-type residencies as being relevant to quality of education or prestige. When in fact, it is often more to do with simple numbers - more ivy league med school grads try to get competitive residencies, and desire an academic career. Some people suggest, and I don't know if this is true or not, that you can have an advantage in coming from a state school because the numbers of people applying to the competitive programs from your school may be lower. I know on my interview trails, I was applying to path programs mostly in the midwest, but some in the northeast, and there was almost a universal comment on how different this was (to my advantage). I wasn't the "run of the mill" competitive applicant from a pedigree factory. Like I said, I don't know if this meant anything or not, but I did sense something.

Of course - it is definitely a factor if you want to stay in the area - harvard residency directors like to take harvard students (duh!).
 
I agree with the suggestions above that undergrad institution prestige is important. My gut feelings, having gone through life, is that prestige of the institutions you attend AFTER undergrad matters less and less as you progress in your career.

Your undergrad institution prestige matters cuz when you're an undergrad, you really haven't done squat yet. As you go further on in life, you've amassed experiences and accomplishments that are relevant to your eventual career. That is going to make or break your CVs and applications as you get older and older...not where you did phase X of your training at.
 
I went to a prestigious undergraduate school and it definitely helped me get to medical school. When I applied to med school, though, I thought I wanted to be an oncologist. Well, needless to say I am starting dermatology residency July 1st. If you have any idea what you might want to do, and if that is a competitive specialty, then go where 1. they have that residency and 2. they have the stronger dept in that residency. That can be tricky when talking about med schools. For example, the above poster is deciding between UTSW, Duke and UNC. IF it were me, and I knew I wanted to be a dermatologist before going to med school I would've chosen 1. UTSW 2. UNC and 3. Duke based solely on the strength of their dermatology residencies. Now, if I wanted internal med or peds then I'd pick either the cheapest or the one I would most like to live at (you really can't say Chapel Hill is cooler than Durham since they are separated by 11 miles and most residents live in Durham since Chapel Hill is soooo expensive). UNC and Duke favor each others medical students for many of their residencies so this is something to take into account as well.

Trust me, it DOES matter where you go to medical school if you want to do a competitive residency. If I had gone to either of the other three medical schools I got into then I would probably not be a dermatologist. Dukes ER program is fledgling and they aren't the areas level I trauma center....that would be UNC. I think UTSW is strong in just about everything it does. If you have no idea what kind of doctor you would like to be, then go where you'll be happy. None of your choices are bad ones.
 
clc17 said:
I went to a prestigious undergraduate school and it definitely helped me get to medical school. When I applied to med school, though, I thought I wanted to be an oncologist. Well, needless to say I am starting dermatology residency July 1st. If you have any idea what you might want to do, and if that is a competitive specialty, then go where 1. they have that residency and 2. they have the stronger dept in that residency. That can be tricky when talking about med schools. For example, the above poster is deciding between UTSW, Duke and UNC. IF it were me, and I knew I wanted to be a dermatologist before going to med school I would've chosen 1. UTSW 2. UNC and 3. Duke based solely on the strength of their dermatology residencies. Now, if I wanted internal med or peds then I'd pick either the cheapest or the one I would most like to live at (you really can't say Chapel Hill is cooler than Durham since they are separated by 11 miles and most residents live in Durham since Chapel Hill is soooo expensive). UNC and Duke favor each others medical students for many of their residencies so this is something to take into account as well.

Trust me, it DOES matter where you go to medical school if you want to do a competitive residency. If I had gone to either of the other three medical schools I got into then I would probably not be a dermatologist. Dukes ER program is fledgling and they aren't the areas level I trauma center....that would be UNC. I think UTSW is strong in just about everything it does. If you have no idea what kind of doctor you would like to be, then go where you'll be happy. None of your choices are bad ones.
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Actually, not true. Duke IS a Level 1 trauma center, and has been so since 1982, and is also a tertiary-quaternary care facility. Maybe you haven't been to Durham, but it has the highest level of violent crime in the Triangle, so it only makes sense that Duke is the Level 1 trauma center.

A quote from dukehealth.org:

"North Carolina has nine trauma centers, five of which are designated as Level 1 centers, the highest of three levels based on medical specialists available and a variety of other criteria. In addition to Duke, the other Level 1 centers are Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, Wake Forest's Baptist Medical Center in Winston-Salem, the University Health System of Eastern Carolina in Greenville and University of North Carolina Hospitals in Chapel Hill."

A friend of mine graduated Duke Med a couple of years ago (Harvard undergrad), and is now in her second year at Michigan in Emergency Med.
 
clc17 said:
I went to a prestigious undergraduate school and it definitely helped me get to medical school.
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I concur. I went to Hopkins for undergrad and I definitely sensed that I had an advantage. Almost all of my interviewers mentioned something about my undergrad institution. If I had gone to let's say UMCP (which is a 45 min drive south), things may have been different. Many med schools give institutional reputations scores--all things being equal, they're gonna take a 4.0 from Hopkins over a 4.0 from UMCP. They're gonna take a 4.0 from Harvard over a 4.0 from U of (pick a state school). It may seem unfair, but it's reality. Deal with it.

Trust me, it DOES matter where you go to medical school if you want to do a competitive residency.
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Again, I stick with my original argument that the prestige of your medical schools matters less than the prestige of your undergrad institution. But I agree with your statement that prestige DOES matter. The question is "To what extent?" Everything being equal, the prestige of your med school is going to matter. There are many criteria that factor into the quality of one's application...prestige of med school is one of them...and especially for getting into a competitive residency, every little bit helps.

My feeling is that attending a prestigious institution helps you out a little for applying to the next phase of your training in that to a certain extent, the prestige of the institution can give you a little more breathing room with respect to performance. If you go to Harvard or Hopkins for med school, of course you can f*ck up here and there and land a competitive residency. If you go to a lower reputation med school, little f*ck up's here and there are less forgivable and you need to be the superstar or one of the superstars of your med school class to land the coveted competitive residency.

For instance, let's say that you go to Hopkins med. OK? And you're in the middle of the class. You're average. You're not a superstar. You're just ordinary. Residency directors are gonna justify this by saying, "well this person is at a med school where everybody is pretty frickin' smart. just because he's in the middle of the class doesn't mean he's necessarily unworthy." Now, let's transplant this person to a bottom of the barrel medical school...same situation...middle of the class. Get my drift? The evidence is in the Match lists.

Life isn't fair. Deal with it.
Don't hate the playa. Hate the game!
This is all a game! One big stupid game.
 
AndyMilonakis said:
I concur. I went to Hopkins for undergrad and I definitely sensed that I had an advantage. Almost all of my interviewers mentioned something about my undergrad institution. If I had gone to let's say UMCP (which is a 45 min drive south), things may have been different. Many med schools give institutional reputations scores--all things being equal, they're gonna take a 4.0 from Hopkins over a 4.0 from UMCP. They're gonna take a 4.0 from Harvard over a 4.0 from U of (pick a state school). It may seem unfair, but it's reality. Deal with it.
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i wonder what reputation duke assigned my ugrad of suny binghamton. hmmmmmm. didn't think bout that.

we were having an interesting prestige debate in pre-allo ecu/unc thread yesterday i sent everyone here to refer to yaah's post, since hes much better wit english than me. 😉

you doods should hop over there and set things straight... :laugh:
 
Do I get royalties for that? 😉

Pre-allo has too much going on, if I venture in there I may never come out again, and moreover I may have a cerebral event from all the bull**** that gets thrown around in there. Again - I would ask anyone who is obsessed with rankings to pay attention to the people who are making the arguments - most of them have yet to even start medical school, if they have even applied. And the ones who are in med school or residency have probably not put a lot of consideration into the fact that other factors (like YOU as a person, novel idea!) are far more important - for getting into med school, there are thousands of applicants to every school - and for the admissions committees they have to make cuts somewhere. So what they have to do is look at things that they can do this with - grades, MCATs, and undergrad institution. For residency, it is a smaller pool, and more attention can be paid to the full application.

Thus, if all things are being equal in applications except the name of the undergrad institution, I highly doubt any residency program would ever discard the person from the "lesser" institution - instead they would interview both and make their decision after meeting both people. Interviews tell you a lot about someone when it comes to residency - what kinds of questions they ask, their attitude, etc.

I think too many people get caught up in intangible factors when in fact they should realize that residency candidate selection is a bit of a complex process. Yes, there are, at many fields and institutions, initial processes of weeding out candidates based on low board scores or other red flags in their application.

I have talked to a couple of people from lesser known state med schools who are very happy they went there - because they were able to shine and stand out from the rest of their class - and when it came time for residency they matched at their #1 in competitive fields partly because of this. So, for every candidate who succeeds in landing a competitive residency because of their attendance at a prestigious med school, I would propose that there are an equal number, if not more, who succeed in landing a competitive residency because of their success at a not so prestigious med school (whatever that means).

My undergrad institution played a factor I guess (carleton) because it's a weird, quirky place and there are graduates all over the country who are known for making connections with each other. But I had interviews at places where most of the people I interviewed with (like in Boston) hadn't heard of it, and I still probably could have matched there. To be honest - my main thought on undergrad institution is that it is simply something to talk about at interviews, and learn more about the candidate. They do look at other applicants who have been to that school, perhaps, to compare records. But I don't think it has a huge relevance - even though people comment on it a lot.
 
I just thought I'd mention what a Harvard Prof (Stephen Jay Gould - RIP) had to say on the subject of post-graduate education institution selection:
"Many students don't understand the system. They apply to a school because it has a general reputation...Wrong, dead wrong." (Wonderful Life, pg 139)

I certainly don't know how much one's school's reputation effects his or her residency applications, but I am certain that the effect is nonzero. However, I'm also pretty sure that many (NOT ALL) students from "prestigous" institutions tend to greatly overestimate this effect. I studied in a city with med schools that run the spectrum of reputations (From Northwestern & U of Chicago on down to, well, I'm not gonna name those names). I met guys & gals from the prestigous schools who didn't wear their school's rep like a stench & got along with 'em fine. But I also met people who stunk of their school ("Hi, I go to med school X, did undergrad at Y, and, by the way, my name's Johnathan." "Uh, OK. Hi John." "It's Johnathan.")

My guess is that the value of the name on your diploma is worth < an extra $100k of debt.
 
ok yaah... someone told me yesterday that 16 people last year at duke matched to harvard and like 16 to duke. i was like wow. that seems pretty good. and i start to feel hypnotised... wow hahhhhhvard. some primal naive competitiveness kicks in. like homer jonzing donuts. it is as stupid as it sounds. i have been totally bred on advertising - do you get that? media stuff.... its like the same feeling of wanting those new jeans wit a cool ad or a john hughes feel-good portrayal of college "reality". maybe. nerf. *yawn* overtired seethrew.... 🙄
 
WilcoWorld said:
My guess is that the value of the name on your diploma is worth < an extra $100k of debt.
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um... for some reason i dont understand what you are saying? dumb it down please... prolly confused cause i am very self absorbed and am thinking of MY numbers now. 😀
 
AndyMilonakis said:
\equal, they're gonna take a 4.0 from Hopkins over a 4.0 from UMCP. They're gonna take a 4.0 from Harvard over a 4.0 from U of (pick a state school).
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The admissions committee at my school is well aware of the grade inflation that ocurrs at several of the prestigious schools, especially Harvard, and looks at more objective measures of performance (eg, MCAT) when deciding on a candidate. While it is impressive that you attended these schools, attendance without success on objective measures gives you no advantage over other students.
 
seethrew said:
um... for some reason i dont understand what you are saying? dumb it down please... prolly confused cause i am very self absorbed and am thinking of MY numbers now. 😀
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The money issue WilcoWorld raised was one of the things I had in mind when asking "To what extent?" in my previous post. Reputation of your institution does matter. But does it really confer THAT much of an advantage. Maybe. Maybe not. But in any case, if the advantage is small or even minimal, is it worth shelling out all that extra money to go to a private institution that has a lot of prestige over a public institution.

Case in point...back in the day when I was an undergrad, Hopkins tuition was approx. $20,000/yr. UMCP tuition was $3000/yr. The question becomes, are you willing to shell out an extra $17,000 to go to the more prestigious institution? If reputation was a nonfactor for application purposes, would you spend $17,000 extra? If reputation was a small factor that could help you just a tad bit in your applications, would you still spend $17,000 extra per year?

There's gotta be something that draws you, besides prestige & reputation, for you to spend the extra $17,000. Also, it helps when mommy and daddy have money to help you pay this tuition. :laugh:

scholes, your point about Harvard grade inflation reminds me of how we Hopkins students would bitch and moan about grade deflation at our school. I don't know anything about the Harvard ugrad grading system or how it works so I don't know how accurate we were when we were comparing the two schools. I guess you'd have to ask someone who went there for undergrad. I agree with you about the objective matters (i.e., MCAT)...I was taking this into consideration when I said "all things being equal." The situation I presented in my previous post was a bit simplistic and farcical...and I did that on purpose. To simplify the quality of a person's application to just a few numbers such as GPA, SAT, and eventually MCAT is ludicrous. Furthermore, how often are "all things being equal" really going to apply to two applicants where it would really come down to some institutional reputation score to break the tie? Probably not often at all. Hence, we come full circle...if you're only going to look at reputation when judging which school you're going to go to (and assuming that the higher reputation school will cost you more money), is it worth it at the very end to shell out the extra money and plunge deeper into debt?
 
seethrew said:
ok yaah... someone told me yesterday that 16 people last year at duke matched to harvard and like 16 to duke. i was like wow. that seems pretty good. and i start to feel hypnotised... wow hahhhhhvard. some primal naive competitiveness kicks in. like homer jonzing donuts. it is as stupid as it sounds. i have been totally bred on advertising - do you get that? media stuff.... its like the same feeling of wanting those new jeans wit a cool ad or a john hughes feel-good portrayal of college "reality". maybe. nerf. *yawn* overtired seethrew.... 🙄
Click to expand...

Ask how many applied or wanted to go there as well. If there were 16 who matched but 100 who wanted to, that's a lot different then if 16 matched out of 20 interested.

Like from my med school, we had one person match at Duke, but only one was interested in going there (in IM). And we had 10-12 I think at Harvard programs, and maybe double that number who were seriously considering it.

But then you also have to ask yourself: Do you want to get caught up in this whole rankings and competitiveness game? For the rest of your career? Is your goal to train at a Harvard residency? Or is your goal to train at the best place for you and become the best physician you can be? That may be at a harvard program, but it may not be. For me, it wasn't. I didn't really want to live in Boston and I felt I fit in better out here after meeting so many people on my interview days and evaluating the situation.

But that is true, the competitiveness does take over - everyone wants to do the best for themselves, and in the absence of any real way to compare training programs or med schools, using rankings and other people's concept of prestige often assumes more of an importance. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about prestige, because I feel you make your own prestige and if your goal is to be recognized and successful, you should be able to do it at any number of institutions. But again - when I was applying to residency I had MGH as my #2 program because I really liked it and thought I would fit in there, and it would prepare me well for a career. Didn't end up going there, obviously though.

Just make sure you evaluate things thoroughly and don't get blinded by peripheral issues, and whichever place you end up selecting will be the best one for you. 👍
 
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