How do most people select their residency? I take a financial approach to the selection process with very little consideration as to whether I am interested in the field or not. After all, a client is a client and I am there get paid for my knowledge. Most of my interests are outside the medical field so I am looking for something with a short residency and flexible working hours once in practice. My goal is to work in medicine for no more than 12 years maximum assuming a 3 year residency. For every additional year of residency I will work one year less. Therefore, I must critically evaluate the financial compensation differences between a discipline via the three year route compared to a longer term residency. I am working under the assumption that my pay will be at minimum $150K via a three year residency, otherwise it it will not fit into my overall financial plan. In addition, I don't want to work more than 50 hours a week as I would like to have a separate business on the side to make additional money. With that being said, what do you recommend as a residency.
Selecting Residency
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Don't do a residency. It will just make you unhappy. Medicine is not the field for those primarily interested in money.
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this attitude of "medicine as a way to a means" is fairly common in the middleast, africa and asia. I have a number of friends of ethnic background who only want to be docs to generate a cash flow for their REAL DREAM of opening a restaurant, copy place, coffe shop etc...We joke about it all the time..crazy! 😀
I assure you this is no joke. Please don't assume that just because someone has gone into medicine they must have a big heart and want to fulfill some noble cause. Believe it or not, some individuals actually have more logistical plans. After all, why do you think some people select dermatology or plastic surgery in SoCal. It certainly isn't because they felt someone would have a better life with a chemical peel and breast implants. How about anti-aging doctors that prescribe EPO and steroids to healthy 30y/o so they can gain a few seconds in their competitive sport?
Medicine is a great way to generate cash flow. How many careers can you name that generate such a significant amount of cash flow and where there will always be a job. I always hear the argument "you should go into business". Well, considering that over 50% of all businesses fail in the first few years and most don't begin making profits until year 5, it doesn't sound that secure. Besides, if it was that easy why isn't everyone a millionaire. So my approach is it have a career that is secure and then begin a business on the side. In addition, I will treat my practice as a business. Everyone has to live, why not make a living while making sure others are healthy.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want the money for material possessions as I have no need for them. Rather, I am interested in developing a nice nest egg that will allow me to pursue the things I enjoy in life while living frugally. I am a strong believer in making my money work for me. Once one has developed a considerable amount of cash, it becomes easy to make enough money to pay the bills through investments without having to deplete the resources.
Medicine is a great way to generate cash flow. How many careers can you name that generate such a significant amount of cash flow and where there will always be a job. I always hear the argument "you should go into business". Well, considering that over 50% of all businesses fail in the first few years and most don't begin making profits until year 5, it doesn't sound that secure. Besides, if it was that easy why isn't everyone a millionaire. So my approach is it have a career that is secure and then begin a business on the side. In addition, I will treat my practice as a business. Everyone has to live, why not make a living while making sure others are healthy.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want the money for material possessions as I have no need for them. Rather, I am interested in developing a nice nest egg that will allow me to pursue the things I enjoy in life while living frugally. I am a strong believer in making my money work for me. Once one has developed a considerable amount of cash, it becomes easy to make enough money to pay the bills through investments without having to deplete the resources.
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Quixotic said:
I hope you stay away from patients. If you have no interest in medicine, then you will have no interest in "making sure others are healthy". Patients are not "clients" as you term them. We all want to be comfortable financially, but if you only see medicine as a means to achieve financial wealth, you will harm your patients with indifference.
Don't tie up a residency spot and keep someone (who will benefit patients) from getting training.
Why don't you manage a Mickey D's or something?
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I also wonder where you are in the process. Likely not very far. I definitely understand your concern about economics, but it's inevitable that after seeing some real people in agony from pain or from a family member's death, you start seeing more in them than dollar signs.
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Quixotic said:
while i cannot COMLETELY disagree with what you say about looking at the financial situation about starting a practice, etc....it was this particular statement that you made which really made me raise an eyebrow....
maybe you'll understand it in a different way....if i start a pizza business and have NO CLUE how to make pizzas (mm....pizza!!) then no wonder my business will fail.....analogously, if you are in medicine and go to medical school in hopes of making money and end up as a horrendous doc who looks at his/her patients as $$$$, your medical "business" will also fail like ANY OTHER BUSINESS...ca-pishe (sp?...BTW, how DO you spell that word!?!?!)
I see where you are coming from in terms of indifference toward patients. It has the potential to be harmful. However, just because I take a business approach toward medicine and view my patients as clients doesn't mean I will not live up to the duty of caring for people in the most professional manner. In fact, by removing emotion from the treatment I feel I can better care for the individual as I am able to look at a problem more logistically. Often time it is the emotions that cloud the thought process of individuals and have the potential to do real harm. For instance, take an individual running late for class. In order to make it on time they feel the necessity to speed down the highway and residential streets. All it takes is one wrong turn or one ball to roll into the street and before you know it, you are living with the guilt of having killed someone just so you could make it to class on time. I mean give me a break, where the hell is the value system in that. Now if you where to evaluate the scenario you would realize that being late by 5 minutes is a better outcome than removing the opportunity of another to exist.
In terms of where I am in the process, I have just begun second year. However, I have seen death first hand as I took care of close relatives during the last several months of their lives and allowed them to pass at home. I witnessed all the suffering they went through and never once asked God to take them away. I believe suffering is a part of life and shows devotion to God. This brings us into the topic of physician assisted suicide, what a farce. Helping someone kill themselves because they are dealing with the suffering of life is considered justified, but if I take a business approach to medicine and provide optimal care for my patients I am criticized. How can a doctor actually help someone kill themselves? In reference to taking another's residency spot, all I have to say is that it is a competition. If someone has better credentials than me, then by all mean take my spot.
In terms of where I am in the process, I have just begun second year. However, I have seen death first hand as I took care of close relatives during the last several months of their lives and allowed them to pass at home. I witnessed all the suffering they went through and never once asked God to take them away. I believe suffering is a part of life and shows devotion to God. This brings us into the topic of physician assisted suicide, what a farce. Helping someone kill themselves because they are dealing with the suffering of life is considered justified, but if I take a business approach to medicine and provide optimal care for my patients I am criticized. How can a doctor actually help someone kill themselves? In reference to taking another's residency spot, all I have to say is that it is a competition. If someone has better credentials than me, then by all mean take my spot.
medlaw06 said:while i cannot COMLETELY disagree with what you say about looking at the financial situation about starting a practice, etc....it was this particular statement that you made which really made me raise an eyebrow....
maybe you'll understand it in a different way....if i start a pizza business and have NO CLUE how to make pizzas (mm....pizza!!) then no wonder my business will fail.....analogously, if you are in medicine and go to medical school in hopes of making money and end up as a horrendous doc who looks at his/her patients as $$$$, your medical "business" will also fail like ANY OTHER BUSINESS...ca-pishe (sp?...BTW, how DO you spell that word!?!?!)
That makes sense. But the big difference here is that I am require to take three USMLE's to prove my competence. I guess I shouldn't have made such a blunt statement about selecting a residency, but I am willing to endure any discipline if only for ten years.
Wednesday said:
Maybe I should consider a four year residency. There are a plethora of different options with that length. I only need $150-160K to make it all work. Anything above that is gravy and may take a few years off the 10-12 projected.
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I really think you mean logically.Quixotic said:
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If you're really, really in the wrong field if all you want is cash and security. Pick a buy-side finance job (notice I did not say investment banking - buy side = security) with $200K salary + bonus and hours 8-6. Make your money there a few years, then transition to something else.
I don't understand why anyone would take a route that involves loans up the wazoo, coupled with the rigors of clinical training and youth lost in residency, when he or she (1) isn't interested in the field, and (2) is primarily concerned with financial gain. I'm not even touching the idea of caring for patients - that argument would take hours and get me hot-headed - but just from a practical standpoint, it makes NO sense.
I don't understand why anyone would take a route that involves loans up the wazoo, coupled with the rigors of clinical training and youth lost in residency, when he or she (1) isn't interested in the field, and (2) is primarily concerned with financial gain. I'm not even touching the idea of caring for patients - that argument would take hours and get me hot-headed - but just from a practical standpoint, it makes NO sense.
kc361 said:
So how exactly does one having been trained in the sciences with no financial training other than self taught and successful acquire a job in buy side financing?
I look at the financial loans as an investment in the business. By becoming an expert in one field I open up the door to many new business opportunities. For instance, acting as a medical witness on trials, only if the information supports the truth. Writing a book on proper diet, exercise and financial success. People tend take more to heart when there is a trained individual writing the book. Maximizing client base by seeing clients every 10-15 minutes. In addition, you can answer e-mails after work from clients for a nominal fee of $50 a piece. Even health insurance is now paying for this. Acting as a speaker at conferences or businesses for a fee. The possibilities are endless.
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Most people on this thread are saying not to do medicine, or not to do residency, because it will ultimately make you unhappy. However, not everyone goes into medicine for the same reasons, and since you have already stated yours (and appreciate completely logical thinking), here are some options for you:
- EM (3 years)
- Derm (4 years)
- Family (3 years)
I'm not going judge you on whether I think an ambivalence towards a particular field will make you suited for that field. But EM and Derm are good "bang for your buck" disciplines, and a person with good business acumen and a willingness to live anywhere can make great money in family medicine.
Furthermore, expanding on that last point, you can make great money in any field if you are willing to live in underrepresented parts of the US. Consider that as an option.
- EM (3 years)
- Derm (4 years)
- Family (3 years)
I'm not going judge you on whether I think an ambivalence towards a particular field will make you suited for that field. But EM and Derm are good "bang for your buck" disciplines, and a person with good business acumen and a willingness to live anywhere can make great money in family medicine.
Furthermore, expanding on that last point, you can make great money in any field if you are willing to live in underrepresented parts of the US. Consider that as an option.
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Iwy Em Hotep said:
Not to be a downer but how do we even know if this person will even match into any of these specialties. Radio is extremely competitive, Derm is extremely competitive, Anesthesia and ER are also becmoing increasingly competitive. Everyone is smart in medical school, there is no guarantee that you can match in these specialties. I'm not sure how far this person is along in his medical training but I hope that when you apply to medical school you have another answer to the question "Why do you want to be a doctor?" besides "So i can retire early and do something else."
bluebirdie said:
This is true. I am in my second year and at least in the top 25%. I have worked on several research projects and aim to have 4-5 publications and one presentation at a national conference before I graduate. In addition, I have many volunteer experiences in underserved areas and at the local hospital. I have begun developing relationships with a couple assistant residency directors as well as local physicians. In this world, it's about who you know, now what you know. My opinion may change by the time I finish school, but since the beginning it has trended toward the business aspect more.
Iwy Em Hotep said:
I appreciate your non-judgmental response. I agree that each of those is a good choice. How will I make more money by serving in an underrepresented area of the country? Do they pay more? I have looked into programs that pay off student loans for serving in specific areas but they all seem to chose the location. I would like to live in more rural setting closer to the wilderness, yet no more than a couple hours from a big city. The only draw back is if I chose to open a separate business I will be limited as to my client base.
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If you went into medicine for finacial reasons, you'll be pretty miserable in most fields. If you're just in it for the money you'll realize what a mistake you made by wasting the entire decade of your 20's (and then some) in intense training for something you're not committed to.
I'd say that radiology and pathology are definitely the best fields for you.
I'd say that radiology and pathology are definitely the best fields for you.
D
deleted4401
If you want to think of this "logically" and from an economic standpoint, you've not evaluated things properly. And I don't mean that from a touchy-feely, "you don't care about patients" sort of way. I don't care about that - I know from being in the system that there are enough people like that out there and some are still amazing doctors, and some that really love patients are terrible doctors ...
With opportunity cost considered + loans/however you paid for school (I don't know where you go to medical school, but I'll use Big State U. as the example):
$30k x 4 for tuition and living expenses (average debt for US med student is over $100k; I'm assuming after 2 years, the avg will be about $120k)
$50k x 4 for a job (if you are top 25% in your class, and have research experience, I'm certain you could have gotten a job that paid AT LEAST that much (in fact, you could have even taken, gasp, a pharm rep position and made $75k+ depending on your territory).
($70k - $40k) * years of residency is your lost earnings after medical school, with ~$40k being a resident salary. (again, a gross underestimate, b/c a guy who could have been top quartile in his med school class definitely should be making over $70k in the real world after four years on the job).
That is $120k + $200k + ~$90-120k ... a little over $400k. Plus, magic fairy dust ('compound interest') turns that into about $600 to 800k depending on your value of safe investments vs. risky high yield stuff.
To be down $600k-800k from the outset ... that's just not financially astute. The yield can be good in medicine, but you start so far down, and with compound interest, the later you invest/earn money, the more of a loss you will take.
If you aren't lying, you're probably pretty sharp, and you should bail and consider a private industry job (McKinsey, BCG, Accenture all loves braniac types, especially those with some business sense; although, I'm a little skeptical about that with your choices so far). After one year in, you've only lost ~50-60k in salary and 30k in loans, and only 1 year of loss of interest.
Medicine is not a bad way to make money, that's for sure. But it isn't the fastest, nor is the safest (yes, there has been an absolute increase in salaries/income, but a relative decrease compared to inflation and other professional wages ... who knows where that is going).
If you're going to stick with this scheme, stick to a cash based practice (plastics, derm, aesthetics, wt. loss, maybe some alternative stuff, pain, hair transplant). You never know with the reimbursement based stuff ...
S
With opportunity cost considered + loans/however you paid for school (I don't know where you go to medical school, but I'll use Big State U. as the example):
$30k x 4 for tuition and living expenses (average debt for US med student is over $100k; I'm assuming after 2 years, the avg will be about $120k)
$50k x 4 for a job (if you are top 25% in your class, and have research experience, I'm certain you could have gotten a job that paid AT LEAST that much (in fact, you could have even taken, gasp, a pharm rep position and made $75k+ depending on your territory).
($70k - $40k) * years of residency is your lost earnings after medical school, with ~$40k being a resident salary. (again, a gross underestimate, b/c a guy who could have been top quartile in his med school class definitely should be making over $70k in the real world after four years on the job).
That is $120k + $200k + ~$90-120k ... a little over $400k. Plus, magic fairy dust ('compound interest') turns that into about $600 to 800k depending on your value of safe investments vs. risky high yield stuff.
To be down $600k-800k from the outset ... that's just not financially astute. The yield can be good in medicine, but you start so far down, and with compound interest, the later you invest/earn money, the more of a loss you will take.
If you aren't lying, you're probably pretty sharp, and you should bail and consider a private industry job (McKinsey, BCG, Accenture all loves braniac types, especially those with some business sense; although, I'm a little skeptical about that with your choices so far). After one year in, you've only lost ~50-60k in salary and 30k in loans, and only 1 year of loss of interest.
Medicine is not a bad way to make money, that's for sure. But it isn't the fastest, nor is the safest (yes, there has been an absolute increase in salaries/income, but a relative decrease compared to inflation and other professional wages ... who knows where that is going).
If you're going to stick with this scheme, stick to a cash based practice (plastics, derm, aesthetics, wt. loss, maybe some alternative stuff, pain, hair transplant). You never know with the reimbursement based stuff ...
S
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I don't have any problems with you going into medicine for cash flow. Capitalism is great. But your economics are seriously flawed. If you really want to make good money right of the bat with security why don't you go into business? No I don't mean starting one up so it will fail. I mean all the strategy consulting firms that were mentioned above? What about venture capital (VC) firms? You know there are healthcare VC firms that would love to have MD's on staff. Healthcare consulting firms are an other option. There are actually a bunch prestigious one out there. Have you ever thought about private equity firms that deal with the healthcare industries? And the most popular right now....Hedge Funds (that deal with healthcare)! Mutual Funds....be a analyst or a associate fund manager of a biotech or healthcare fund. And yes all of these firms will start you at six figs. You just have to be pretty smart to land a job. But from the way you sound you seem pretty intelligent. Why would you put yourself through all this debt and torture only to go through more torture of residency?
I guess I put myself through this because I do have an interest in knowing how the body works and challenging myself intellectually. Ultimately my goals are to do research when I retire so having knowledge of science and the body is a good foundation.
The past several posts have had some valid points. However, how exactly does one get into the financial field being classically trained as a scientist and not in finance or economics? I guess it is fairly easy to become a financial advisor, but I'm not sure how much they earn. With a salary of $180K it is fairly easy to pay off school loans, buy a house and save enough for retirement in a relatively short period of time. Plus, I can act as a medical consultant for large companies in my free time during retirement and make a nice sum of cash. Or just write a book on diet and exercise, people need to be told how to live instead of just feeding them these garbage diets. It's about lifestyle change not dieting. The public in general is lazy and is always looking for the easiest way out. What they need to do is come to a camp run by me and several personal trainers to learn how to make a lifestyle change permanently.
The past several posts have had some valid points. However, how exactly does one get into the financial field being classically trained as a scientist and not in finance or economics? I guess it is fairly easy to become a financial advisor, but I'm not sure how much they earn. With a salary of $180K it is fairly easy to pay off school loans, buy a house and save enough for retirement in a relatively short period of time. Plus, I can act as a medical consultant for large companies in my free time during retirement and make a nice sum of cash. Or just write a book on diet and exercise, people need to be told how to live instead of just feeding them these garbage diets. It's about lifestyle change not dieting. The public in general is lazy and is always looking for the easiest way out. What they need to do is come to a camp run by me and several personal trainers to learn how to make a lifestyle change permanently.
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Quixotic said:
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Surely you see the supply/demand dynamic in your favor in a rural area - there are simply fewer physicians to compete with for patients.Quixotic said:
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Quixotic said:
I have many things to add, but little time. But I'll say this. Take a year off and get your MBA. Any school will take a med student into their class. It is just a matter o filling out an application. And there's your ticket into the business world and to make more money than the average doc. Good luck, and please keep away from my patients.
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Iwy Em Hotep said:
No, we're saying to not do medicine because there's no way in hell we'd want to be on call with someone with an attitude like that!
OldPsychDoc said:
Why not? Just because my motivation is money doesn't mean I can't apply the information I learned during medical school to solve problems. Do you actually think I'm going to sit there and talk to you about money saying Oh! Oh! I can't wait to get paid, certainly not. I will speak with you as a colleague so that we can determine the best course of treatment to alleviate the ailments of the patient. You will know nothing of my personal life as I will most likely not associate with you outside of work. I completely separate work and life. When I am at work I only think of what needs to be done. Outside of work, thoughts of one of my cases won't cross my mind. That is the problem with many docs today, they take everything home with them. When I leave the clinic, the beeper gets turned off. My partners are getting paid at that point to take care of the problem.
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Quixotic said:
Dude, you're going to take it home with you. Unavoidable sometimes.
GO DERM!!!
D
deleted4401
A good strategy consulting firm will choose the smartest candidates. Many of their analysts have never taken a business course in their life. They look for problem solvers and critical thinkers. Someone who can figure out a novel way to elucidate the active site for a new drug probably has enough "out of the box" thinking to work on complex business problems. They even start you out with a "MBA in two weeks" training period, b/c of the high number of liberal arts/professional degrees type people that they hire. Trust me, I've looked.
Being 'classically trained' as a scientist is EXACTLY what one of these companies would want, as long as you were intelligent and creative.
I don't doubt your motives (bling bling), but I do doubt your reasoning. If you were as sharp as you said, you would have looked at the multitude of recruiting opportunities, and not wasted so much opportunity cost.
The other thing that you might be right about is that you just might not get a job in those arenas, but it will be because you don't got the goods. It is too easy for everyone to tell you to leave medicine, and be a businessman and make money. 80% of medical students would fail miserably. It's that top 20% of medical students that would be good at just about any field that can venture out into the world of consulting and finance, and blow it up.
In summary:
1) All people in medicine can make money.
2) Smart people outside of medicine can make money.
3) Smart people that leave medicine can make money.
4) Average people that leave medicine probably will not make money.
Simul
Being 'classically trained' as a scientist is EXACTLY what one of these companies would want, as long as you were intelligent and creative.
I don't doubt your motives (bling bling), but I do doubt your reasoning. If you were as sharp as you said, you would have looked at the multitude of recruiting opportunities, and not wasted so much opportunity cost.
The other thing that you might be right about is that you just might not get a job in those arenas, but it will be because you don't got the goods. It is too easy for everyone to tell you to leave medicine, and be a businessman and make money. 80% of medical students would fail miserably. It's that top 20% of medical students that would be good at just about any field that can venture out into the world of consulting and finance, and blow it up.
In summary:
1) All people in medicine can make money.
2) Smart people outside of medicine can make money.
3) Smart people that leave medicine can make money.
4) Average people that leave medicine probably will not make money.
Simul
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SimulD said:
Took the words right out of my mouth. You obviously aren't a good businessman right now because medicine is a horrible investment in economic terms (which was already pointed out). Consulting firms and many other firms in "business" would love to have a hard-working, top medical student working for them...teaching them business will be easy and the knowledge that they bring to the table is much different than the typical finance major in college. Instead of spending 200k on a medical school education, you'd be better off working your way up the corporate ladder in a consulting firm...you'll meet your income goals a lot faster. I know some people who are working for a healthcare consulting firm making 50k+ right out of undergraduate with no business experience at all but all the premed prerequisites. This would be a much better idea for you than wasting your time in medical school.
Bfriccia1 said:
I will take both your and SimulD's advice. Over the next year I will attempt to work full time while staying in medical school. This way I will be making money while going through school so as not to lose out on the monetary rewards and learning about a new field.
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SO sad I opened this thread, but I just have to comment.
1. Money's good in medicine, but not THAT good. Name 1 physician on Forbe's List who is still seeing patients... see what I mean?
2. You're wasting your time. 7 years (not including premed) is a long time to spend in medicine and you're losing 7 years to your competition.
3. MD in the business world don't mean crap. Education in business don't mean crap. Because it's all about performance and execution. If you don't deliver, you're out, baby. Especially in investing. MD doesn't make you a better stock picker.
4. Hopefully you'll change your mind when you start seeing patients. Maybe then you'll realize that medicine is one bad @ss job and you'll be proud to be part of it just like everyone else.
1. Money's good in medicine, but not THAT good. Name 1 physician on Forbe's List who is still seeing patients... see what I mean?
2. You're wasting your time. 7 years (not including premed) is a long time to spend in medicine and you're losing 7 years to your competition.
3. MD in the business world don't mean crap. Education in business don't mean crap. Because it's all about performance and execution. If you don't deliver, you're out, baby. Especially in investing. MD doesn't make you a better stock picker.
4. Hopefully you'll change your mind when you start seeing patients. Maybe then you'll realize that medicine is one bad @ss job and you'll be proud to be part of it just like everyone else.
quixotic...sounds like the majority of physicians 10-15 years in practice that I know..the only difference is they have even more lament and anger in their viewpoints...maybe I hang around the wrong type of docs...oh yeah...let me get the hell out of the military ASAP
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Seriously, I'm not judging you or getting on the "medicine is a calling" high horse. If money is your goal there are much easier, lower stress ways to get there than via medicine.Quixotic said:
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Medicine IS a business people, and it can be a very lucrative one at that. There is no other field in the world where a very smart person is virtually guaranteed an upper class lifestyle if they want it.
All you clueless people saying things like "just take a cush 8-6 job and make 200k a year" really have no clue. In undergrad I majored in finance, and all of my friends who went into finance have been worked like dogs, around 70 hours a week for maybe 80k tops to start with. The "business" world is not some cush candyland where money grows on trees.
On the other hand, a 4th year rads resident that I know was just offered 850k a year to start, @45 hours week, 2 year partner track, according to him that isnt out of the norm and the offers that the interventional guys get make that look like a joke. The CT anesthesia fellow in my lab turned down 500k/year to do a fellowship. I think they will be catching up to and surpassing my business school friends with a quickness.
There is a ton of money to be made in medicine, especially for a highly motivated, smart, business minded physician. It is no different than any other type of business, and there is no reason why you cant be concerned with money and patients without compromising patient care. I would wager that the business minded doc would give superior care over some bleeding heart simply because its better for business.
All you clueless people saying things like "just take a cush 8-6 job and make 200k a year" really have no clue. In undergrad I majored in finance, and all of my friends who went into finance have been worked like dogs, around 70 hours a week for maybe 80k tops to start with. The "business" world is not some cush candyland where money grows on trees.
On the other hand, a 4th year rads resident that I know was just offered 850k a year to start, @45 hours week, 2 year partner track, according to him that isnt out of the norm and the offers that the interventional guys get make that look like a joke. The CT anesthesia fellow in my lab turned down 500k/year to do a fellowship. I think they will be catching up to and surpassing my business school friends with a quickness.
There is a ton of money to be made in medicine, especially for a highly motivated, smart, business minded physician. It is no different than any other type of business, and there is no reason why you cant be concerned with money and patients without compromising patient care. I would wager that the business minded doc would give superior care over some bleeding heart simply because its better for business.
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AlbertConstable said:
I thought that this is where you hand over narcotic scrips for cash, with a sliding scale for increased potency. Generally frowned upon, but very lucrative. There was a 'pain doc' based out of New Orleans practicing this type of medicine, and when the DEA and FBI raided her home, she had garbage bags (literally) full of cash.
Check out painrounds.com for more in regards to pain management practices...honestly, I don't think there is any procedure that patients would pay for out-of-pocket that some form of insurance wouldn't cover if you're creative enough with their diagnostic criteria.
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Quixotic said:
You said you were a second year ... so next year, how on earth are you going to work full time AND go through your clinical rotations?
I can't put my finger on it ... but I just can't shake the feeling that you are not in med school yet. hmmm...
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tigershark said:
Yeah, but how many people with the brains and work ethics to become doctors wouldn't have done well in business, law, etc if they were motivated to do so?
There was a study done awhile back that compared student profiles of people who went into med school and people who went into other professional areas. It turns out that on average, doctors make less then other people who had similar grades and test scores in college.
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Quixotic said:
If you are looking only to make some bank and not work too hard, then you have indeed made some serious miscalculations. MD's who are considered "experts in the field" are almost always in academics, which usually pays less than in private practice. In addition, unless you have some serious talent, book writing and the like is usually a lost cause. Since you already "invested" in the field of medicine and seem like you're mainly interested in the financial side of things, you need to seriously think about doing a residency that will get you more than just 160K, 'cause that is lowballing for your investment. Things like rads, rad onc, nuc med are good money makers for non-surgeons. If you are willing to put in the hours in residency and do a 5 year plan, ortho is the way to go. Why make $160K when you could be making over 500K? For someone with financial dreams, you are selling yourself short. Granted, you might be thinking that you could make up the difference with those side jobs, but you would have to write alot of emails to make up the 300K+ difference.
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Sledge2005 said:
Yeah, just think about it:
I went to med school and spent 80K + for 4 years of training, followed by 5 years of residency making 30-40K/year. Meanwhile, my buddy from college went straight to making 70K year and has had nine years of climbing the corporate ladder. If he invested wisely, he is WAY ahead of me in terms of financial gain.
Another friend of mine spent 4 years travelling as a computer systems set-up guy, then got all entrepreneurial and bought an old college frat house and turned it into a coed dorm. Then he bought a rock quarry. He is making money hand over fist now.
So now I've got 80K in debt and have little savings/investments compared to these dudes.
BUT....here's the kicker...
I DON'T WANT TO BE IN BUSINESS. I NEVER WANTED TO BE IN BUSINESS.
I got into medicine because being a doc rocks! I love my job, I love to operate, I love patient care. I love getting up in the morning and going to work. I you know, I will be in private practice next year making good money. I could be in business, or be a lawyer and likely be making more money. You have to do a job that you will LOVE, or you will be miserable doing whatever it is you do. Making tons of cash will not make you enjoy your job. Enjoying your job will make you tons of cash.
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In reference to Quixotic,Quixotic said:
I have been reading your opinions for a while now and I have to add some input myself. I think your not completely off when you express your interest in the money, as I am finiancially concerned. However, the way you choose your statements do come off very blunt and honestly quite rude to our fellow med students and MDs. There are, which I would estimate most, people interested in medicine for the internal drive to empathetically care for patients. Most take med school, residency, and practice very seriously, and I'm sure it is quite unpleasant for them to come on this site, which has been designed for people interested in medicine and people who like medicine, to hear people like you degrade the concept of "TRUE MEDICINE". There are people out there who have always wanted to be a doctor, but can't get into a school due to the shortage of openings and government funding, and I'ts truly just sad that there's people like you taking these scarce openings. Maybe you should go to a different site that talks about jobs that make alot of money for people whom are only concerned in making a lot of money, and if you can't find one, you seem like you know it all, start one. Maybe you might even be able to charge people to join. Now don't get me wrong, I would like to make a lot of money one day. But I also would like to be happy doing so. And I'm not sure where your from but even entry level FPs or Peds seem to make a comfortable salary.
Now you said that you were into money, business, and the way the body functions, so go into a feild that your going to make fast cash, start a business, and take a few bio and chem classes on the side. Hell I hear dealing drugs is quick and easy cash, and you don't even have to communicate w/your "clients" a whole lot. And you would still have enough time to take some classes at your local college (they're cheap) and write a book or something.
Another thing is your comment on assisted suicide. I'm sorry to hear that you've had to take care of family and watch them suffer until God took them at your home. I too have done the same for both of my parents. My argument here is that when you have a person that God won't take, whom is suffering and has been for years, with no hope of ever getting better, and I'm talking extreme circumstances, is it fair to let this person and their family endure this pain? If you're mother, father, brother, or child was in a permanent vegetative state for years, with no hope for recovery, would you keep them that way for another 5, 10, 15 years? And how about people on life support, which I'm sure durring your rotations and residency you will deal with. Would you "pull the plug" if your family member was only alive due to a machine? That I guess you could say is assisted suicide seeing how if God wanted to take them he would have and he did'nt so someone else (maybe you) is making te choice to send him. It's called critically thinking.
And one more quick thing, you said that you would'nt take your work home with you nor would you speek to your fellow co-workers out of work. Well if you don't want to speek to co-workers out of work fine, but to say that you would'nt get emotionally involved and you would shut your pager and thoughts off after work os a crock. I would love you to tell me that on your rounds in peds, after seeing a 4 year old little girl dieing from luchemia, that you would forget about her once your day was done. Or how about the 8 month old little boy who was brought into the ER severly beaten from his father and was totally brain dead and on life support. Are you really telling me that you would shut all of that out and not take it home with you? That is unrealistic and if that truly is the case, than I may be seeing you in my office one day. Reguardless what specialization you choose, medicine is about people, and your obviously not. Your in the wrong feild. Your wasting your precious time and money. Educate yourself, get out, and leave medicine up to the people who love it, live for it, and need it. Hope I was'nt too harsh, just bluntly voicing my opinion as you so bravely did.
