Setting Work/Life Boundaries as an ECP

[foreverbull]

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Some of the threads I read in here about productivity and burnout got me thinking...is it really okay for early career psychologists/academics to not volunteer to do everything under the sun or to set boundaries around work/life balance? Or is it viewed negatively and the person isn’t considered a team player?

On internship, my supervisors were infamous for nitpicking personality and behaviors of interns and ignoring the positives (they got this feedback every year) and we already worked 43+ hours per week in a very isolated area. At the time I decided not to volunteer to do a lot of extra activities to maintain some semblance of work/life balance because I felt overwhelmed, but it was viewed quite negatively by my supervisors even though I thought I was actually setting appropriate boundaries.

I also think about this having worked in multiple settings and observing the culture of the site. For those of you who are employees and work in settings with others, how do you view those who set boundaries around work-life balance? I often see this with more seasoned professionals who just don’t volunteer to do anything “extra” and they don’t suffer any consequences because there seems to be an unspoken rule that the newbies should step up and senior staff have worked their way up, etc. But in some settings, it’s clear to me that their expectations 20+ years ago were not the same as ECPs today (productivity expectations have changed in very real and practical ways).

Thoughts? I know we have a good mix of ECPs and seasoned professionals here who can weigh in.

 

[ClinicalABA]

As an employer, supervisor, and instructor, I'd much prefer an employee/trainee/student who kicks ass 9-5 (or whatever the actual paid work expectations might be) and then takes care of themselves, vs. one who does a lot of extra stuff but maybe not so good at the day job. There are rock stars who both kick ass at the "required" stuff, do the extra stuff, and take care of themselves too. Obviously, I want these people around and do what I can to keep them- you'd be a fool not to. I'd say it's more that I view them with an extra degree of positivity, rather than negatively viewing the person who does a great job but may not do the extra stuff. However, if you are trying to build a team or program, don't you want those people who go that extra mile without sacrificing their out of work life and personal well-being?

I don't have much use (or patience) for the person who does a great job with extra research, or even planning the work picnic or arranging our team for the fundraiser, but does so at the expense of their required work.

Sounds like your internship supervisor were sort of jerks!

 

[Sanman]

In my view, as a curmudgeonly not that old man, it really depends on what you want out of life. Are you looking to get promoted or get into another position? Go kick ass and try to be a rockstar. I did this, got the promotion and realized I was miserable. As I saunter into middle age and middle career, my job cannot offer me any incentive to work harder. I don't need the extra few dollars from OT work. Promotions mean a move from the CBOC to the main medical center that comes with a 2x cost of living increase or a brutal 2 hour commute. So, I volunteer for the easy stuff and the things I enjoy (teaching didactics mostly). For the rest, I use my CBOC status to point out that it would cause me greater difficulty than all the people that are already in the main medical center or just kind of get forgotten. There is a reason I opted for a rural positon.

 

[PsyDr]

One of the better pieces of advice I got in grad school was basically “do nothing for free. Classmate wants your notes? Gimme $20. Employee wants an extra hour? Raise my salary. Patient wants a letter? Pay my hourly.”

It took me years to learn the wisdom in that. People get mad, because they have no rationale for cheating the social contract. if it’s not a big deal, then pay me.

The 4 hour work week, which is just older material rebranded, is a decent source for this. Or the IT article entitled something like, “ F you. Pay me.”

 

[R. Matey]

One of the better pieces of advice I got in grad school was basically “do nothing for free. Classmate wants your notes? Gimme $20. Employee wants an extra hour? Raise my salary. Patient wants a letter? Pay my hourly.”

I learned this the hard way in graduate school and strongly second this. Setting boundaries is how you know who your friends are.

how do you view those who set boundaries around work-life balance? I often see this with more seasoned professionals who just don’t volunteer to do anything “extra” and they don’t suffer any consequences because there seems to be an unspoken rule that the newbies should step up and senior staff have worked their way up, etc. But in some settings, it’s clear to me that their expectations 20+ years ago were not the same as ECPs today (productivity expectations have changed in very real and practical ways).

Being young in this field does appear to require a lot of extra work. I still work on the weekends and on my day off doing all of the extra to try to gain a competitive advantage. Right now, I'm studying around 15 hours/week for the EPPP and doing a little writing/consulting on the side and it still feels like not enough. It does feel like something is rotten in the state of Denmark when 55-60 hours/week is described by others as "chill." I have been brewing more beer lately because you can study at the same time.

Also, this may be a hijack thread, but does anyone actually read anything for pleasure that isn't psychology related? And if so, how do you have time?

 

[Dazen]

Also, this may be a hijack thread, but does anyone actually read anything for pleasure that isn't psychology related? And if so, how do you have time?

I'm not currently a psychologist, so I can't exactly speak to that experience, but what worked for me in college and frequently working 70 hour weeks in finance (which I still do, but luckily my life has calmed down a bit right now) was to always read at least 5-10 minutes every night before I go to sleep. This was my childhood routine, and I've realized that my quality of life is highly related to the amount that I read for pleasure. Making it consistent and allowing for small bits of time when I'm particularly tired or distracted keeps reading from seeming like a chore, or overwhelming. Sometimes I do just read for 10 minutes, sometimes I have the time and energy to read for an hour or more. Regardless, every night I read.

For context, reading has been my favorite thing in the world since I was a two-year-old who made her dad follow along with his finger every time he read to her until she could figure it out for herself, so YMMV.

 

[R. Matey]

I'm not currently a psychologist, so I can't exactly speak to that experience, but what worked for me in college and frequently working 70 hour weeks in finance (which I still do, but luckily my life has calmed down a bit right now) was to always read at least 5-10 minutes every night before I go to sleep.

So I also read daily, but my reading time for the last 6-7 years has been taken up by EPPP study, other academic papers, treatment manuals/book, and reading for graduate school. I have managed to sneak in a few books for pleasure in there, but I always feel a little guilty about it. There's a large knowledge burden that comes with being a psychologist, IME, so pleasure reading usually goes to the back burner.

 

[summerbabe]

I'm in my first job following postdoc in the VA system. I serve on one work group that isn't tied to my clinical role and wait to be voluntold to do anything else.

In general, I try to stay under the radar and focus on my direct clinical responsibilities as I have no interest in future promotion into GS14 admin roles.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

When I first started and was doing pp I refused to answer calls or emails after 5 or on weekends. This really bugged the people who owned the practice, but I learned early on that I in fact had the power, because they needed me, and although I was replaceable (we all are), it would have been expensive and time consuming to do so. I say this to make the point that, if you know and appreciate your worth, I feel like its harder for people to take advantage of this type of thing. Saying no legit is one of the best skillsets to have in your arsenal.

 

[Indiana_Jane]

I'm not currently a psychologist, so I can't exactly speak to that experience, but what worked for me in college and frequently working 70 hour weeks in finance (which I still do, but luckily my life has calmed down a bit right now) was to always read at least 5-10 minutes every night before I go to sleep. This was my childhood routine, and I've realized that my quality of life is highly related to the amount that I read for pleasure. Making it consistent and allowing for small bits of time when I'm particularly tired or distracted keeps reading from seeming like a chore, or overwhelming. Sometimes I do just read for 10 minutes, sometimes I have the time and energy to read for an hour or more. Regardless, every night I read.

For context, reading has been my favorite thing in the world since I was a two-year-old who made her dad follow along with his finger every time he read to her until she could figure it out for herself, so YMMV.

I am the same way. I’ve been reading nightly since I was 4. I usually read at least 1-2 hours per night before bed. It really is my top form of relaxation (although I need to get better about reading more fiction and less cognitively-taxing material........).

 

[cara susanna]

I pretty much ignore work outside of work hours, but I'm in the VA where my work and home life are pretty separate. The only exception is research, but I try to do that stuff during the work day during admin hours or if I I have any other free time.

 

[GradStudent2020]

I think this is very setting dependent. I’ve worked at a few places where work/life balance is encouraged and valued.

I took the EPPP 8 weeks after my degree was conferred and was fully licensed within 12. Now that the licensing process is done I leave work at work, and it’s a true 40 hour work week.

I agree with the sentiment above, if you want my time you can pay for it.

 

[WisNeuro]

When it comes to clinical services, consultation, legal stuff, charge. Get to the point where you can choose where you wish to volunteer your time (free walk-in clinic, state org legislative advocacy, etc). But, keep your eyes open, sometimes those (non-employment related) volunteer activities can lead to networking or other opportunities that can be very financially beneficial.

 

[foreverbull]

I think it’s great that so many folks in here think it’s crucial to understand one’s worth and appreciate boundaries, but I do wonder how applicable it is at certain sites where applicants are plentiful and there’s a lot of social comparison and competition going on (ie you work alongside ECP colleagues who volunteer for many things). And/or the job description has some very vague mention of additional duties and roles as dictated by the needs of the job. I think @Sanman was getting at the idea that promotion may partially be dependent on being a “yes” person at some sites—the idea that you have to make yourself an invaluable employee by taking on as much as you can to get promoted. I’ve also seen employers give lip service to work-life balance without actually supporting it in practice.

I’d be interested to hear from some more postdocs and ECPs about the responses from employers when they set clear boundaries by not saying yes to “optional” tasks/duties or saying no when asked to do something “extra.” Or do you just volunteer/agree to do most things asked of you by default?

 

[WisNeuro]

I think it’s great that so many folks in here think it’s crucial to understand one’s worth and appreciate boundaries, but I do wonder how applicable it is at certain sites where applicants are plentiful and there’s a lot of social comparison going on (ie you work alongside ECP colleagues who volunteer for many things). And where the job description has some very vague mention of additional duties and roles as dictated by the needs of the job. I think @Sanman was getting at the idea that promotion may partially be dependent on being a “yes” person at some sites—the idea that you have to make yourself an invaluable employee by taking on as much as you can to get promoted. I’ve also seen employers give lip service to work-life balance without actually supporting it in practice.

I’d be interested to hear from some more postdocs and ECPs about the responses from employers when they set clear boundaries by not saying yes to “optional” tasks/duties or saying no when asked to do something “extra.” Or do you just volunteer/agree to do most things asked of you by default?

All depends on what you want out of a job. I will say that for some of the more desirable VA positions that only come open once in a while (director of training), the job is definitely going to the person who has gone above and beyond in the duties, rather then the person who just shows up. Going to be different at different sites, as many hospital systems do not hire psychologists into mid level leadership roles unless they have masters level business degrees as well.

 

[Sanman]

I think it’s great that so many folks in here think it’s crucial to understand one’s worth and appreciate boundaries, but I do wonder how applicable it is at certain sites where applicants are plentiful and there’s a lot of social comparison and competition going on (ie you work alongside ECP colleagues who volunteer for many things). And/or the job description has some very vague mention of additional duties and roles as dictated by the needs of the job. I think @Sanman was getting at the idea that promotion may partially be dependent on being a “yes” person at some sites—the idea that you have to make yourself an invaluable employee by taking on as much as you can to get promoted. I’ve also seen employers give lip service to work-life balance without actually supporting it in practice.

I’d be interested to hear from some more postdocs and ECPs about the responses from employers when they set clear boundaries by not saying yes to “optional” tasks/duties or saying no when asked to do something “extra.” Or do you just volunteer/agree to do most things asked of you by default?

This is where I think age and knowing yourself comes into play a little bit. There is no shortcut to climbing the ladder at most places. The trick is knowing if this is a ladder you want to climb. For every person that said yes, didn't draw boundaries, and got the promotion, there are 5-10 that may not have. Those 5-10 are the old people that you see who seem immune to doing extra work. Only you can decide if the chance at the carrot is worth the guarantee of the stick.