Sexual Harrassment ...

[mshheaddoc]

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I was wondering how many of the women have encountered sexual harassment in the workplace, whether its a job non-medically related or as a med student/resident. I'm really floored by talking to some med students who have had to battle with some doctors out there who just apparently really didn't like women ...


I suppose I should have added that research would be included if its medically related.

 

[Carbon]

I've had dozens of patients say really incredibly inappropriate things to me, but I don't know if that really counts. Never had anything particularly inappropriate happen from a peer/resident/attending.

 

[mshheaddoc]

So what is your reaction when you have to deal with it? I know many women have dealt with it so what is the best course of action if it is a supervisor, peer, or even a "customer" (read: patient).

 

[Carbon]

With patients I usually give them a withering look and then ignore it and move on with my exam/interview/procedure/whatever. If they persist, I say in a really firm tone of voice, "Hey, knock it off. I know you mean well, but I don't appreciate it." That approach has never failed me.

 

[sophiejane]

I've also had some very inappropriate comments from male patients, some that have made me really uncomfortable.

As a student, I've never been really sure how to deal with it except to ignore it completely and go on talking.

As a doctor, I don't anticipate much will change, but maybe I will be more assertive about making sure the behavior stops.

 

[lilnoelle]

I endured a lot of sexual harrassment at various work places while in highschool - notably working as a waitress, as a pizza delivery driver, and working in a ice cream shop. Most of it came from co-workers, occasionally it came from customers (that happened a lot in the waitressing job). At the time it didn't really bother me. I mostly just laughed it off when I was around individuals that made me uncomfortable. (And I think I probably flirted back a little with those that I thought were cute... 😱). Most of what I "endured" was not much more than suggestive flirting, but there were a few things that went too far - I once was "depantsed" (sp?) by a coworker in the basement at my work.

I just watched a movie recently (North Country) that really brought up the whole sexual harrasement issue in my mind though. Not so much my high school experience, but rather the fact that there really does seem to be a bit of a "Good old boys club" mentality that is still present. I haven't experienced it in medicine yet, but I can tell it still exists. I've even seen it at work on this website.
The movie was about women working in the mines back in the 70's and what they endured. It was based on a true story - and it was just terrible. I'd like to think nothing like that could ever happen today, yet there were some things that were familiar.... i.e. women being expected to laugh at jokes that are made at their expense, whether it be about women in general or sexual in nature - and if a woman acted offended or tried to stop the behavior in question then they are labled as having no sense of humor or having a stick up their @ss.
Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?

It was a good thing that my hubby and I watched the movie together and then had a good conversation about it afterwards (and he agreed with my every word) because that movie sort of made my blood boil. Especially when I knew it was based on a true story and that I see similar (but milder) things occuring today.

 

[lilnoelle]

So what is your reaction when you have to deal with it? I know many women have dealt with it so what is the best course of action if it is a supervisor, peer, or even a "customer" (read: patient).

we talked about this some in med school last year. they said that if its a customer, the best thing to do is to take care of it. The physician should be able to take control of the situation and tell the patient to stop the behavior, bring someone else in the room, or dismiss the patient from the office.

if its a peer or a boss, then we've been told to tell someone else with more authority.

 

[Pemberley]

So what is your reaction when you have to deal with it? I know many women have dealt with it so what is the best course of action if it is a supervisor, peer, or even a "customer" (read: patient).

I've never seen gender-based inappropriate workplace behavior, but I did deal with a thoroughly unprincipled (otherwise motivated) supervisor before, and your basic technique is going to be the same:

1) Documentation. If something unacceptable happens, sit down and write it down, as closely to word-for-word as you can, as soon afterward as you can.
2) Proof. If it's somebody you work with frequently, buy one of those voice-activated MP3 recorders and keep it concealed about your person. This will keep you out of a "he said, she said" situation -- which is critical, because if unable to prove who's telling the truth, the powers that be would be ill-advised to take action, even if they really do think it's you. Also, knowledge that you're being recorded will subconsciously make you more thoughtful about what you say and how you say it, which will only be a good thing at the end of the day.
3) Avoidance. Don't be behind a closed door one-on-one with somebody you suspect (or a subordinate of the opposite gender who might accuse you of impropriety.)

 

[sdn1977]

I didn't vote because I did not suffer gender based harrassment. But, I was the receipient of just plain old harrassment in a job a number of years ago.

I did exactly what Pemberley said to do - documented, took it to the appropriate people who started the internal process and never, ever spoke about it with any of my colleagues (ie gossip). I was never told what the outcome was - only that the matter had been handled. I was given this information by the director of human relations - the harrassers were my immediate supervisor & her boss, by not reigning her in when he was presented with evidence.

They never let on what happened to them, but they were both ever so cautious around me from the day I went to HR to give the actual report. I was actually shown my employee file when I asked to see it, which they did, and there was no indication of any actions against me - or even that I had filed the complaint. When I asked why, they just told me that when a case of harrassment has been resolved, the information only goes into the individual's file who was found at fault or in the file of the person who brought an unsubstantiated claim. So.....I guess they upheld my claim.

I continued to work there until after the process had been resolved & stayed about 1 more month (it was 3 months from start to finish) - then I quit. I think they were all very worried I would sue them since I had cause.

But - I did follow the sexual harrassment case closely which occured in the Dept of Surgery at Stanford about 15 years ago. I was very interested since the Chairman of the Dept - who was the a party in the lawsuit, was the man who did brain surgery on my husband.

Just goes to show - you can't tell about the kind of person someone is, as a patient, since he was the most respectful, gracious & thoughtful person to me - the wife. He was a great surgeon who made some poor choices.

 

[djavid]

So if they are "cute" its OK and its not sexual harrasement. but if you don't like them its now harrsement. Maybe you don't understand the definition.

You were depantsed in the basement by co-workers and let that go??? 😕😱

It took a movie for you to realize it is not appropriate for a group of guys to take your pants off in the basement at work???

I hope your insight has gotten better.

I endured a lot of sexual harrassment at various work places while in highschool - notably working as a waitress, as a pizza delivery driver, and working in a ice cream shop. Most of it came from co-workers, occasionally it came from customers (that happened a lot in the waitressing job). At the time it didn't really bother me. I mostly just laughed it off when I was around individuals that made me uncomfortable. (And I think I probably flirted back a little with those that I thought were cute... 😱). Most of what I "endured" was not much more than suggestive flirting, but there were a few things that went too far - I once was "depantsed" (sp?) by a coworker in the basement at my work.

I just watched a movie recently (North Country) that really brought up the whole sexual harrasement issue in my mind though. Not so much my high school experience, but rather the fact that there really does seem to be a bit of a "Good old boys club" mentality that is still present. I haven't experienced it in medicine yet, but I can tell it still exists. I've even seen it at work on this website.
The movie was about women working in the mines back in the 70's and what they endured. It was based on a true story - and it was just terrible. I'd like to think nothing like that could ever happen today, yet there were some things that were familiar.... i.e. women being expected to laugh at jokes that are made at their expense, whether it be about women in general or sexual in nature - and if a woman acted offended or tried to stop the behavior in question then they are labled as having no sense of humor or having a stick up their @ss.
Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?

It was a good thing that my hubby and I watched the movie together and then had a good conversation about it afterwards (and he agreed with my every word) because that movie sort of made my blood boil. Especially when I knew it was based on a true story and that I see similar (but milder) things occuring today.

 

[lilnoelle]

So if they are "cute" its OK and its not sexual harrasement. but if you don't like them its now harrsement. Maybe you don't understand the definition.

You were depantsed in the basement by co-workers and let that go??? 😕😱

It took a movie for you to realize it is not appropriate for a group of guys to take your pants off in the basement at work???

I hope your insight has gotten better.

ummmm. no

things were different in high school. I was a flirt and didn't mind the attention that I got from guys. There was an occasional thing that was done that was wrong and that bothered me. (The depantsing for instance and also one other incident that occured my junior year that was even substantially worse)

And the depantsing incident was just one guy, it was a joke, but it was innappropriate. I did tell the boss on duty, who wasn't much older than me. I also told my boyfriend, who knew the guy responsible. Nothing was done about it (I don't think the boss told anyone else), but I may have told him not to tell anyone else, just to make sure it didn't happen again. I'm pretty sure my boyfriend talked to the guy too.

What I was saying is that stuff that happened to me at jobs in high school wouldn't be accepted anymore in the workplace. Thats all. For the most part I didn't mind it, and occasionally I would flirt back if I felt like it.

My perspective HAS changed substantially. I'm no longer available for one, haven't been for most of college and thereafter. I can't even remember the last time a guy hit on me. I'm pretty sure its because I give off an "unavailable vibe".... or maybe its the two kids hanging off my hips.

The movie just ticked me off, thats all, and thats why I brought it up. It didn't have anything to do with my behavior in high school or even my own experience with men in general. It did nothing to change my mind about sexual harrassment. It just made me mad.

 

[Clio]

Yes, over the years I have been sexually-harassed on the job. A couple of docs and coworkers, but primarily from patients. I make it VERY clear they've over-stepped their bounds and that I will not accept that sort of behaviour. I must scare them, as I've never had any do it a second time lol.

 

[mshheaddoc]

As this poll has taken off, it saddens me to see that most women have been exposed to this, as Clio mentions she tells them upfront its not welcome and they quit.

How many of you have been in a sexual harassment situation and didn't know how to make it stop? This is something that I've often wondered about as I've heard more than once from various medical students that they've had to "take" these comments from various preceptors. Why do you have to "take" anything? I know the women always commented in their "rotation feedback" and actually a few preceptors have been removed but why not be professional and address it.

What can we do to help women address this issue?

 

[Noeljan]

Yes, over the years I have been sexually-harassed on the job. A couple of docs and coworkers, but primarily from patients. I make it VERY clear they've over-stepped their bounds and that I will not accept that sort of behaviour. I must scare them, as I've never had any do it a second time lol.

I don't have as much experience as you yet, but I hear you on the patients. I was a nursing student in UG and I got a lot LOT of sexual comments from patients. I will never forget one in particular. I was a new grad at my new job and I went to take the patient's blood. He asked what will I give him if he lets me take it. I asked what would he want (thinking an extra soda or snack that a lot of patient's try and get out of the nurses from the food cart). He replied very seriously, sex from you. I didn't know what to say. I left the room and got my preceptor. She just came in and said, you can't talk to her like that. That was it. He just laughed.
This bothers me, because I feel like would a worker in another industry have to put up with that? Heck I know lots of times I am soooo nice to workers in stores and they hardly greet you. Hospitals seem to shove this customer service thing down your throat, yet the patients can often treat you however they like? I even got attacked once by a patient because he was mad that he needed to switch floors. Something needs to be done about this, but I don't know how to go about it.
I am soooo sooo excited about starting med school in 4 weeks. I cannot wait to get back to clinical stuff, but I do worry sometimes about this (I feel like pts can treat you however they want). Obviously there are some really nice pts out there, but it still doesn't make up for being harassed.

 

[CatsandCradles]

This is a very interesting thread. Some really informative information people have written here.

I come from a really disciplined and strict thinking and mentality; so my question is:

Is it possible for you to threaten to call the police or hospital security and report the incident? I read a few post in this thread were some of you are getting laughed at and derided by patients because of your gender.

Something like, "I'm sorry, but I must report to the police what you just said" can make someone shut up much easier.

And you shouldn't just let them laugh and jeer at you. Make them panic a little with a call to the police or security. With the proper authorities present in the patient room, you should make a very firm, but polite complaint against the patient.

Very firm and polite is the key. It scares the crap out of people such as the ones who are making unwanted sexual harrasment comments at you. Remember, the people doing this to you aren't virtutous individuals or people of high moral caliber - they are weak narrow minded people who probably contribute nothing meaninful to society - so with police or security in the room, you state your position in a very firm, however polite way and they will either apologize outright or start making up some really poor excuse that will make them look all the more guilty.


I am not a female. But I have been is some really difficult situations. Whenever there is a problem, I make a very public situation of the matter - in a very firm and polite fashion - and the person who did me wrong will either apologize outright for fear of reprecusions. Like I said, the people deliberately doing you wrong are not people of high moral caliber - and they'll crumble or look more guilty if they try to defend themselves.


Important items.

1 Pay attention to your sentence structure. Some people, when they talk, just don't sound believable when they tell their story - I know this from first hand experience cause not to long ago, a committee at my school rejected what this one girl had to say because she didn't know how to speak in front of a committee - sad thing was, she was correct but the comittee said no she was wrong!

It is utterly important to convince people of your case. And it is important to controll your emotions - very very key! Don't loose control of yourself no matter how angry you are. The girl started sounding like a immature child and it made her position not tendable.


2 Do every thing methodically. If such and such coworker has been making sexual and harrasment comments about you, then write down whenever they made those comments on a piece of paper and date them. When you do go infront of a committee, you firmly and politely read out:

"I am a very methodical person and keep track of items. On November 4th during the 2nd night shift at storage room behind the nurse's station, such and such said X, Y, Z". Then on November 5th at....

You might think that writing down things like this is an overkill, but if a coworker has been abusing you then I think it is imperative to make the strongest impression possible in front of a committee of either your peers or hospital administration. People like to see people keep track of things. Society likes things to be written down and on paper - and they might call into question the authenticity of writing down a list of grieviences, but this is your opportunity to make a strong impression on everyone else. Everyone loves a neat and organized person - and many people crave justice and will favor you greatly when they see that you took the diligence and time to make a list. I have done something like this and it is devestating.


3 Being firm and polite makes the situation all the more worse for the other person. For example, if someone tries to make a half hearted or joking apology - you calmly say:

"I am sorry, I cannot accept your apology. I am not Jesus, I do not forgive other people"

You might think that a statement like that is cruel and mean, but it will make a very strong impression on everyone else in the room. The fire and brimstone approach is tricky, but can be devestating when used correctly. Remember, there are people out there who crave for more and more justice and morality and they like hearing fire and brimstone. Manipulate them and use that to your advantage.

4 Pick a fight that is reasonable. If a coworker is harrasing you contstatnly then that's a reasonable fight. If it's a one time thing then pay attention to what was said and take note of it if it happens again.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I was on Pubmed and came across some of these articles:

Prevention of Sexual Harassment in the Workplace and Educational Settings
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/4/1752

1: Acad Med. 2005 Apr;80(4):400-8.Click here to read Links
Does students' exposure to gender discrimination and sexual harassment in medical school affect specialty choice and residency program selection?
Stratton TD, McLaughlin MA, Witte FM, Fosson SE, Nora LM.

Student Assessment & Program Evaluation, Office of Academic Affairs, University of Kentucky College of Medicine, MN104 Medical Science Building, Lexington, KY 40536-0298, USA. [email protected]

PURPOSE: To examine the role of gender discrimination and sexual harassment in medical students' choice of specialty and residency program. METHOD: Anonymous, self-administered questionnaires were distributed in 1997 to fourth-year students enrolled in 14 public and private U.S. medical schools. In addition to reporting the frequency of gender discrimination and sexual harassment encountered during preclinical coursework, core clerkships, elective clerkships, and residency selection, students assessed the impact of these exposures (none, a little, some, quite a bit, the deciding factor) on their specialty choices and rankings of residency programs. RESULTS: A total of 1,314 (69%) useable questionnaires were returned. Large percentages of men (83.2%) and women (92.8%) experienced, observed, or heard about at least one incident of gender discrimination and sexual harassment during medical school, although more women reported such behavior across all training contexts. Compared with men, significantly (p </= .01) more women who reported exposure indicated that gender discrimination and sexual harassment influenced their specialty choices (45.3% versus 16.4%) and residency rankings (25.3% versus 10.9%). Across all specialties, more women than men experienced gender discrimination and sexual harassment during residency selection, with one exception: a larger percentage of men choosing obstetrics and gynecology experienced such behavior. Among women, those choosing general surgery were most likely to experience gender discrimination and sexual harassment during residency selection. Interestingly, correlations between exposure to gender discrimination and sexual harassment and self-assessed impact on career decisions tended to be larger for men, suggesting that although fewer men are generally affected, they may weigh such experiences more heavily in their choice of specialty and residency program. CONCLUSION: This study suggests that exposure to gender discrimination and sexual harassment during undergraduate education may influence some medical students' choice of specialty and, to a lesser degree, ranking of residency programs.

PMID: 15793027 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[mshheaddoc]

Interesting about this too:

1: N Engl J Med. 1993 Dec 23;329(26):1936-9.Click here to read Links

Comment in:
N Engl J Med. 1994 May 12;330(19):1388-9.
N Engl J Med. 1994 May 12;330(19):1388; author reply 1389.
N Engl J Med. 1994 May 12;330(19):1388; author reply 1389.
N Engl J Med. 1994 May 12;330(19):1388; author reply 1389.

Sexual harassment of female doctors by patients.
Phillips SP, Schneider MS.

Department of Family Medicine, Queen's University, Kingston, Ont., Canada.

BACKGROUND. Sexual harassment within the doctor-patient relationship is typically discussed in terms of male doctors harassing female patients. We investigated the sexual harassment of female doctors by patients. METHODS. Surveys were mailed to a random sample of 599 of the 1064 licensed female family physicians in Ontario, Canada. Respondents were asked about their experiences of sexual harassment by either male or female patients and about the nature and frequency of harassing behavior. Suggestions for prevention were requested. RESULTS. Seventy percent (422) of the questionnaires were completed and returned. More than 75 percent of the respondents reported some sexual harassment by patient at some time during their careers. Physicians had been harassed most often in their own offices and by their own patients. However, in settings such as emergency rooms and clinics, unknown patients presented a proportionately higher risk. The physicians' perceptions of the seriousness of the problem varied with the frequency and severity of the incidents. CONCLUSIONS. Sexual harassment of female doctors appears to occur frequently, and it is therefore an important topic to address in medical school and professional development.

PMID: 8247058 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Full Text: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/329/26/1936
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And how much actually IS done during medical/professional school for us women?

 

[persia]

******************************************
And how much actually IS done during medical/professional school for us women?

None.

 

[foreverLaur]

i get hit on by a lot of the older men that come sit at the "bar" at Bob Evans, but I doubt that would count?

luckily i work at a Children's Hospital and all the nurses are female so I haven't experienced anything there.