SGU vs DO

[HopefulDoc91]

So I recently was accepted to St. George's in the Caribbean, and they want my deposit soon. I still have 4 DO schools to hear back from, and I want to avoid going to the Caribbean. My GPA is 3.4, MCAT 496. I'm pretty sure it's because of my low MCAT score that I'm not getting accepted to DO schools. I have clinical experience and lots of volunteer hours, plus shadowing hours. Plenty of letters of recommendation. Do you think I should go to the Caribbean for this fall, or wait and retake the MCAT, then reapply to DO? I honestly want to be a DO, I'm really interested in osteopathic medicine. But I would want to take 2 years off because I wouldn't be ready to retake the MCAT this summer, I would need to take it in January. What do you guys think?? Any advice is appreciated!!

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[blue0rchid]

Wouldn't three months be enough to study? I took my mcat on 7/9 and still got good interviews. Start studying now. If you still can't then take your time. Don't go the Caribbean route.

 

[Toutie]

My GPA is 3.4, MCAT 196. I

Hopefully that 196 is a typo. 😕

 

[HopefulDoc91]

Hopefully that 196 is a typo. 😕

Yes sorry!!! 496!

 

[HopefulDoc91]

Wouldn't three months be enough to study? I took my mcat on 7/9 and still got good interviews. Start studying now. If you still can't then take your time. Don't go the Caribbean route.

I'm finishing up my senior year of my undergrad, and last year I struggled with studying for the MCATs while studying for exams and finals. Since applying to schools is so expensive, I only want to apply one last time. So my absolute best shot would be to have my applications and MCAT score submitted by June. I just can't do that for this year. But on the other hand I could just go to SGU and not worry about having to apply again.

 

[NewHorizons]

I'm finishing up my senior year of my undergrad, and last year I struggled with studying for the MCATs while studying for exams and finals. Since applying to schools is so expensive, I only want to apply one last time. So my absolute best shot would be to have my applications and MCAT score submitted by June. I just can't do that for this year. But on the other hand I could just go to SGU and not worry about having to apply again.

If you want to worry whether or not you can survive and not be a statistic of attrition by all means sacrifice yourself on the sword.

Just take some time to sit down and think.... it becomes a no-brainer.

 

[Skip Intro]

I honestly want to be a DO, I'm really interested in osteopathic medicine.

I think you answered your own question. Especially if your age is < 30.

-Skip

 

[sso_blasted87]

I think you answered your own question. Especially if your age is < 30.

-Skip

Hey Skip, at what age did you start Ross? (sorry if its too personal) I recall you stating it on another thread but I cant find it. I'm only curious because I'm a non traditional trying to get into medical school.

 

[muqalia]

Go DO. I think you have a great shot if you can improve your mcat by a lil bit

 

[Skip Intro]

Hey Skip, at what age did you start Ross? (sorry if its too personal) I recall you stating it on another thread but I cant find it. I'm only curious because I'm a non traditional trying to get into medical school.

> 30

-Skip

 

[bedevilled ben]

> 30

-Skip

Dirty-thirties represent. I recently realized that I'm like a decade older than most of my classmates. The downside is that I don't understand their hip lingo. The plus side is that I get to tell them to get off of my lawn. I consider it a fair trade.

 

[W19]

what's 496 in the old mcat?


Edit: That's like 21 in the old version... You might need to retake and aim for >500.

 

[Mwooster]

Plenty of letters of recommendation.

You want high quality, not quantity, my friend

With a 496 on the MCAT, the bigger concern is your test taking skills and/or your knowledge. I know the MCAT and Step 1 do not go 100% hand in hand, but how can you expect to do reasonably well on Step 1, especially as an IMG?

 

[Mad Jack]

Personally I'd say go DO. It shouldn't take you two years to retake the MCAT and reapply.

I'm also kind of shocked at how far SGU's numbers have dropped- a 3.4/21 is on the low side for their old admission standards.

 

[W19]

Personally I'd say go DO. It shouldn't take you two years to retake the MCAT and reapply.

I'm also kind of shocked at how far SGU's numbers have dropped- a 3.4/21 is on the low side for their old admission standards.

I am not shocked because someone with 3.4 GPA and 23+ (498+) MCAT should be able to get into one of the newer DO schools...

If SGU standards are getting that low, imagine how it is for the other Caribbean schools...

 

[UBC2014]

I am not shocked because someone with 3.4 GPA and 23+ (498+) MCAT should be able to get into one of the newer DO schools...

If SGU standards are getting that low, imagine how it is for the other Caribbean schools...

If OP is canadian, then its extremely unlikely to get into one of the Canadian friendly DO programs(about 10 of them), with a 23 MCAT.

Even for an american, its more likely, but still you have to have something in the non-academics to compensate for a 23 MCAT even for the newer schools.

EDIT: Reading the above comments OP score is more like a 21 - which even for an American, is going to be a super hard sell for USDO programs. It happens, but you have to be a superstar in a different area of your application.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am not shocked because someone with 3.4 GPA and 23+ (498+) MCAT should be able to get into one of the newer DO schools...

If SGU standards are getting that low, imagine how it is for the other Caribbean schools...

SGU used to have stats that were higher than a lot of lower-stat DO schools, at least back in the day. They've fallen down to the bottom of the barrel, stat-wise.

 

[cassis_Cake]

The average mcat listed on their website is 26 though..

 

[W19]

The average mcat listed on their website is 26 though..

We are talking about Caribbean schools here... Take whatever they say with a huge grain of salt.

 

[W19]

If OP is canadian, then its extremely unlikely to get into one of the Canadian friendly DO programs(about 10 of them), with a 23 MCAT.

Even for an american, its more likely, but still you have to have something in the non-academics to compensate for a 23 MCAT even for the newer schools.

EDIT: Reading the above comments OP score is more like a 21 - which even for an American, is going to be a super hard sell for USDO programs. It happens, but you have to be a superstar in a different area of your application.

A lot of the newer schools have 25 average MCAT... So 23 is not that far from their average.

 

[W19]

Personally I'd say go DO. It shouldn't take you two years to retake the MCAT and reapply.

I'm also kind of shocked at how far SGU's numbers have dropped- a 3.4/21 is on the low side for their old admission standards.

I know two individuals who got into AUC and ROSS with 18, so I am not shocked that these schools have to start accepting students with very low MCAT... The US students who got 22-25 can still find a way to get into a lower tier DO if they know how to play the game.

 

[UBC2014]

A lot of the newer schools have 25 average MCAT... So 23 is not that far from their average.

Sure, but usually if you have a 23(OP actually has closer to a 21) that needs to be coupled with a high GPA, or really strong non-academics etc.

 

[W19]

Sure, but usually if you have a 23(OP actually has closer to a 21) that needs to be coupled with a high GPA, or really strong non-academics etc.

With grade replacement it is not difficult to get the GPA up... I know 21 won't cut it, but 23 coupled with a 3.5+ c/sGPA should do it.

 

[Mad Jack]

I know two individuals who got into AUC and ROSS with 18, so I am not shocked that these schools have to start accepting students with very low MCAT... The US students who got 22-25 can still find a way to get into a lower tier DO if they know how to play the game.

Yeah, anywhere aside from SGU you basically just need to have a MCAT score, federal loan eligibility, and a pulse nowadays.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Yeah, anywhere aside from SGU you basically just need to have a MCAT score, federal loan eligibility, and a pulse nowadays.

Pulse + wealthy parents also works, especially for non-US students, and especially at SGU. Saw plenty of that in my own class. Might account for the drop in stats. Not sure exactly if their stats are dropping or it's just anecdotal, word from administration last year was that they were cracking down heavily on decel'ing classes and focusing more on quality of students rather than quantity of students. Seems like they have enough applicants these days to up the cutoff for new admissions, but that doesn't seem to be happening. They might be feeling a little more pressure with so many new US schools opening up in the last 2-3 years.

 

[W19]

In-before a flame war, I must say that having a low MCAT does not mean that a lot of these people are not capable of becoming good physicians. A friend mine scored 17 MCAT after 3-4 attempts and he is a practicing physician now...

The MCAT is mostly an 'analytical' (for lack of a better word) test, and the first 2-year of med school is almost a memorization exercise. Of course, there are some materials (i.e physiology) that one must use some analytical reasoning, but that is the exception--not the rule.

 

[UBC2014]

In-before a flame war, I must say that having a low MCAT does not mean that a lot of these people are not capable of becoming good physicians. A friend mine scored 17 MCAT after 3-4 attempts and he is a practicing physician now...

The MCAT is mostly an 'analytical' (for lack of a better word) test, and the first 2-year of med school is almost a memorization exercise. Of course, there are some materials (i.e physiology) that one must use some analytical reasoning, but that is the exception--not the rule.

I find it hard to believe that someone with a 17 MCAT after 4 attempts, somehow ended up passing Step1, but i guess anything is possible.

You don't need to be "analytical" to get higher than a 17 on the MCAT...you need to have showed up to some undergrad science classes and again showed up to the MCAT, having spent at least some time looking at prep material.

 

[W19]

I find it hard to believe that someone with a 17 MCAT after 4 attempts, somehow ended up passing Step1, but i guess anything is possible.

You don't need to be "analytical" to get higher than a 17 on the MCAT...you need to have showed up to some undergrad science classes and again showed up to the MCAT, having spent at least some time looking at prep material.

It happened whether you want to believe or not. He did pass step 1 (2nd attempt) and step 2/3 (1st attempt). He is a GP now.

 

[Sardinia]

In-before a flame war, I must say that having a low MCAT does not mean that a lot of these people are not capable of becoming good physicians. A friend mine scored 17 MCAT after 3-4 attempts and he is a practicing physician now... The MCAT is mostly an 'analytical' (for lack of a better word) test, and the first 2-year of med school is almost a memorization exercise. Of course, there are some materials (i.e physiology) that one must use some analytical reasoning, but that is the exception--not the rule.

It happened whether you want to believe or not. He did pass step 1 (2nd attempt) and step 2/3 (1st attempt). He is a GP now.

Confused. Are you comparing and contrasting whether a multiple choice exam test gauges for someone's ability to be a good medical practitioner or how they will perform in their first two years of medical school classes? Because the only correlation data I've seen regarding MCAT performance by medical schools are Step 1 results in which your friend failed on first take. Mind you no one here will argue that having a low MCAT will jeopardize your path to becoming a doctor, however it is a correlative indicator that in most cases tough times are ahead.

 

[W19]

@Sardinia I was just saying having a low MCAT score does not mean that these people are not capable of performing in med school or becoming physicians... The MCAT is a completely different test from the exams I have taken in the first 2-year of med school.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Confused. Are you comparing and contrasting whether a multiple choice exam test gauges for someone's ability to be a good medical practitioner or how they will perform in their first two years of medical school classes? Because the only correlation data I've seen regarding MCAT performance by medical schools are Step 1 results in which your friend failed on first take. Mind you no one here will argue that having a low MCAT will jeopardize your path to becoming a doctor, however it is a correlative indicator that in most cases tough times are ahead.

That's my understanding as well. MCAT scores are weakly correlated with Step 1 scores. Anecdotally, PD's don't give a rip about MCAT scores, they're more interested in your Step scores and whether you can fit in at a residency program. SGU is full of examples of students that scored poorly on the MCAT and then went on to nail the Steps and land good residencies. From my viewpoint, the concern is greatest when applicants have both a low MCAT and a low GPA, which indicates to me a lack of preparation. A low MCAT could just mean poor test-taking skills, which can be overcome with relatively little practice. A low cGPA or sGPA could mean the applicant was coming from an especially competitive undergrad program, or is a non-trad applicant with some missteps in their undergrad curriculum. When both scores are low, however, it would cause me to raise an eyebrow, I think.

The Predictive Validity of the MCAT for Medical School Performance and Medical Board Licensing Examinations: A Meta-Analysis of the Published Research

 

[Sardinia]

The Predictive Validity of the MCAT for Medical School Performance and Medical Board Licensing Examinations: A Meta-Analysis of the Published Research

Your link turned out a bit wonky: http://www.internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon et al (2007) Acad Med.pdf

@W19 Thank you for responding in a calm manner despite me responding to you in a provoking manner. I think that you can draw many differences between the MCAT and the coursework required at medical school. However, for me personally the MCAT is the only comprehensive one day examination that embodied multiple subjects which I never experienced in undergrad as I usually had at most 3 examinations on the same day and it was possible to reschedule exams if someone had 4 or 5 subjects on the same day.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Your link turned out a bit wonky: http://www.internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon et al (2007) Acad Med.pdf

@W19 Thank you for responding in a calm manner despite me responding to you in a provoking manner. I think that you can draw many differences between the MCAT and the coursework required at medical school. However, for me personally the MCAT is the only comprehensive one day examination that embodied multiple subjects which I never experienced in undergrad as I usually had at most 3 examinations on the same day and it was possible to reschedule exams if someone had 4 or 5 subjects on the same day.

Oh yeah, it did. That's what I get for posting late at night I guess. Thanks for the fix.

Like most cases involving statistics, I think it's important to recognize that correctly interpreting the result is more important than the result itself. It's easy to slap an r^2 coefficient on a correlation and call it a day. The findings indicate that good students with good past performance tend to go on to be good students with good future performance. It doesn't really say anything about poor performers. And perhaps more importantly, statistics kind of by necessity overgeneralize individuals into populations. Specific performance can't really be judged from a population statistic, but it can give you a predictive framework I guess.

Dammit, I didn't realize you were trying to be provoking. We could have had ourselves an old-fashioned flame war. Uh, uh, your face is...ugly? Screw you, buddy! (am I doing this right??)

 

[UBC2014]

It happened whether you want to believe or not. He did pass step 1 (2nd attempt) and step 2/3 (1st attempt). He is a GP now.

Well, not without hiccups along the way step 1 failure etc. Were they an US-IMG or an American grad who received some form of affirmative action? Had some amazing connection? Got into med school 15 years ago?

Regardless, I will take your word that it happened.

But that is the 0.001% anomaly compared to the other 99.99%(these are obviously made up numbers, but for effect) who would not have made it through like that person did(with struggle of course) somehow.

 

[UBC2014]

@Sardinia I was just saying having a low MCAT score does not mean that these people are not capable of performing in med school or becoming physicians... The MCAT is a completely different test from the exams I have taken in the first 2-year of med school.

I must be odd then, i'd take the MCAT any day over any of the Med school exams i've had. Sure they are all MCQs, but the vastness of background knowledge needed for our Med MCQs, coupled with the analytics make them miles more difficult then the MCAT. But maybe i'm just a person who prefers sole critical thinking(mcat) over combination of vast memorization + critical thinking on top of it (med).

 

[W19]

Well, not without hiccups along the way step 1 failure etc. Were they an US-IMG or an American grad who received some form of affirmative action? Had some amazing connection? Got into med school 15 years ago?

Regardless, I will take your word that it happened.

But that is the 0.001% anomaly compared to the other 99.99%(these are obviously made up numbers, but for effect) who would not have made it through like that person did(with struggle of course) somehow.

One is a US-IMG and the other one is a DO grad. The DO grad is caucasian.

I also worked with an ID doc who told me he got into SGU with 2.8 GPA and <20 MCAT in the early 90s. I guess admission standard were lax then.

 

[Sardinia]

I must be odd then, i'd take the MCAT any day over any of the Med school exams i've had. Sure they are all MCQs, but the vastness of background knowledge needed for our Med MCQs, coupled with the analytics make them miles more difficult then the MCAT. But maybe i'm just a person who prefers sole critical thinking(mcat) over combination of vast memorization + critical thinking on top of it (med).

I felt the same way. The amount of time you have to prep for the MCAT is infinite and receiving a guideline that you are guaranteed material is very reassuring. I don't suffer from test anxiety, however I do suffer from prep anxiety. I always felt that you could constantly review for any of the material and simply have to accept that you weren't able to cover any section as in depth as you would like to and if you had a couple more days then you would be ready. I can understand how some people could prefer their medical school material over the MCAT. And I'm not insinuating that their medical school examinations are easier or "give-me" exams in nature. However, if you have a firm basis in medicine e.g. developing a solid structure over the material in undergrad then I can understand that a lot of medical material could build up on the building blocks established by the student before being starting the program.

 

[HopefulDoc91]

Thanks for all the replies guys...today I turned down St George's and I've decided to take a gap year or 2 to retake the MCAT and reapply to DO schools. I just went with my gut feeling. St George's didn't feel right to me...and I think I have a decent shot at a DO school if I improve my MCAT.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for all the replies guys...today I turned down St George's and I've decided to take a gap year or 2 to retake the MCAT and reapply to DO schools. I just went with my gut feeling. St George's didn't feel right to me...and I think I have a decent shot at a DO school if I improve my MCAT.

Good luck! And if it comes down to it, I doubt SGU would give you trouble about going there down the line so long as you've still got a pulse lol

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Good luck! And if it comes down to it, I doubt SGU would give you trouble about going there down the line so long as you've still got a pulse lol

Lol

To the OP MadJack has a good point. I would try the DO route if its available for you first. It also depends on how old you are. Assuming you can wait a year it would be worth it. SGU has rolling admission dates so you can apply to the summer semester or the January semester instead. They take later admissions too so waiting isn't the worst because you can always have this as a fall back assuming money isn't an issue (SGU is expensive!).

 

[tomcruise9]

If you want to go for DO, you have to retake MCAT, below 26, you ain't going to any DO school in the US, guaranty!!!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[bedevilled ben]

If you want to go for DO, you have to retake MCAT, below 26, you ain't going to any DO school in the US, guaranty!!!

Lots of DO schools have average MCAT scores in the 497 - 503 (old scoring: 25-28) range. A 501 (26) with a good GPA would provide a decent acceptance rate for most DO programs, especially those with in-state bias. I "guarantee" it.

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Lots of DO schools have average MCAT scores in the 497 - 503 (old scoring: 25-28) range. A 501 (26) with a good GPA would provide a decent acceptance rate for most DO programs, especially those with in-state bias. I "guarantee" it.

I would still aim for the equivalent of a 30-32. I know someone with a 32 that got rejected.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I would still aim for the equivalent of a 30-32. I know someone with a 32 that got rejected.

The reason for his/her rejection is definitely not the MCAT. One would still have an extremely good shot with a 28 MCAT and 3.4 GPA.

 

[UBC2014]

The reason for his/her rejection is definitely not the MCAT. One would still have an extremely good shot with a 28 MCAT and 3.4 GPA.

Im assuming by their name, the friend they know that got rejected with a 32 was Canadian.

Canadians can only apply to a smaller subset of the overall USDO programs.

The 10 or so that do take canadians/internationals tend to have higher requirements overall and expect a bit more from internationals. I definitely agree though that they didn't get rejected because of the 32 MCAT, its just that the 32 mcat wasn't enough to compensate for other areas of their application.

A Canadian with a 3.4/28 could definitely get into a DO program, but they will have to really have strong non-academics, lors etc.

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Im assuming by their name, the friend they know that got rejected with a 32 was Canadian.

Canadians can only apply to a smaller subset of the overall USDO programs.

The 10 or so that do take canadians/internationals tend to have higher requirements overall and expect a bit more from internationals. I definitely agree though that they didn't get rejected because of the 32 MCAT, its just that the 32 mcat wasn't enough to compensate for other areas of their application.

A Canadian with a 3.4/28 could definitely get into a DO program, but they will have to really have strong non-academics, lors etc.

Yeah that is exactly what happened. I do not know what their EC's looked like. I do know that they did a masters program with research. I am not sure of the other information. They are at SGU currently. They do have some what of an "ambitious" attitude about what they want to get out of this.

The dangeous thing is they are very much I want to do Neurosurgery or Bust. This is not the best attitude. I do with them luck though.