Shadowing a DO neurosurgeon.

[Calizboosted76]

As the title says I am going to be shadowing a DO neurosurgeon and I am more than excited. We spoke on the phone tonight and he has assured me that though there will be challenges ahead of me that if I want to be a neurosurgeon that becoming a DO will not make that solely a dream. I will let everyone know how it goes!

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[donghua]

Good luck, it seems like you're on the right path! Hope all goes well and be sure to report back your experience.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Good luck, it seems like you're on the right path! Hope all goes well and be sure to report back your experience.

Will do! Talked to him for like an hour tonight on the phone! Will let everyone know how it is.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

He trained in a bygone era. Go have a great time shadowing, learning, etc, but being a DO is about as close to a death sentence for neurosurgery as you can get. If that is really your goal then you need to go to an MD school.

 

[olabrador23]

He trained in a bygone era. Go have a great time shadowing, learning, etc, but being a DO is about as close to a death sentence for neurosurgery as you can get. If that is really your goal then you need to go to an MD school.

there should be no reason for that, right? but why is that still the case?

 

[BorderlineQueen]

there should be no reason for that, right? but why is that still the case?

Some PDs still see DOs as less than MDs also neurosurgery values research at most DO schools it's hard to get research. Most DO schools don't really prepare you to take Step 1 you have to self-study. But to get into NS you need a very high Step 1 score around 245-250ish. Most people who match into NS are MD students. I saw on the NRMP report that in 2017 I think it was only 2 DOs matched NS but also 4 IMGs matched NS the rest that matched were Allopathic students.

 

[Calizboosted76]

I get the stigma behind being a neurosurgeon and a DO BUT the fact that it’s not unheard of is okay in my mind. I have a very resonated background with neurosurgery. Also I may get to medical school and find out that I don’t even want to do NS. I’m open minded. Either way hope everyone has a great day.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

there should be no reason for that, right? but why is that still the case?

Neurosurgery requires an elite application all around, which by nature DO schools don’t really prepare you well to build that so that’s one aspect of it. On top of that there are really only like 5-10 total “DO” NS spots in the entire country and MD programs don’t really consider DOs unless you have a big name vouching for you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I get the stigma behind being a neurosurgeon and a DO BUT the fact that it’s not unheard of is okay in my mind. I have a very resonated background with neurosurgery. Also I may get to medical school and find out that I don’t even want to do NS. I’m open minded. Either way hope everyone has a great day.

These days it’s been pretty unheard of dude. I go to easily one of the “best” DO schools with tons of residencies, research, etc, and we have had 1 neurosurgery match in the last 10 years...

 

[Calizboosted76]

Neurosurgery requires an elite application all around, which by nature DO schools don’t really prepare you well to build that so that’s one aspect of it. On top of that there are really only like 5-10 total “DO” NS spots in the entire country and MD programs don’t really consider DOs unless you have a big name vouching for you.

This I have. So well see. Either way Ill be happy to be a physician.

 

[Calizboosted76]

This I have. So well see. Either way Ill be happy to be a physician.

And no, I dont mean the NS that I am going to be shadowing either.

 

[mc29012]

Doesn't PCOM have its own neurosurgery residency? OP could shoot for med school there

They do, but that is one spot for a class of 270 at a single DO school (idk if any others have dedicated neurosurg spot). You likely have to be a real rock star to get that spot. Not saying OP couldn't do it though! Enjoy your shadowing!

 

[Isoval]

there should be no reason for that, right? but why is that still the case?

My school matches one or two every once in a while, and many who say they want to be neurosurgeons throughout their schooling end up getting a position.

This does not mean, however, that’s it’s an easy thing to do at a DO school. I know a colleague who is dead-set on neurosurgery. He’s class president, student government president, officer on like three organizations, involved in research, and at the top of the class. And he still might have trouble matching.

It’s not impossible to match NS as a DO. But the contrast between MD and DO here is rather wide.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My school matches one or two every once in a while, and many who say they want to be neurosurgeons throughout their schooling end up getting a position.

This does not mean, however, that’s it’s an easy thing to do at a DO school. I know a colleague who is dead-set on neurosurgery. He’s class president, student government president, officer on like three organizations, involved in research, and at the top of the class. And he still might have trouble matching.

It’s not impossible to match NS as a DO. But the contrast between MD and DO here is rather wide.

Agreed. It’s honestly probably the field with the biggest contrast.

 

[Calizboosted76]

I am dead set on neurosurgery. BUT that is not to say that if I for some reason cannot become a neurosurgeon that I will not be happy to match something else. I more so would like to do pediatric neurosurgery. I was 5 when I had surgery to correct my Chiari malformation and this is where my love for the field has came. I really appreciate everyone’s comments!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I am dead set on neurosurgery. BUT that is not to say that if I for some reason cannot become a neurosurgeon that I will not be happy to match something else. I more so would like to do pediatric neurosurgery. I was 5 when I had surgery to correct my Chiari malformation and this is where my love for the field has came. I really appreciate everyone’s comments!

Honestly man I would heavily consider an SMP, MCAT retake, whatever you have to do honestly, in order to be able to go MD.

 

[Medic741]

Honestly man I would heavily consider an SMP, MCAT retake, whatever you have to do honestly, in order to be able to go MD.

This is really good advice that should be followed!

Currently navigating a couples march mil/civilian and it’s a pain starting to realize the scope of the DO bias in the real world. Don’t. Go. DO. If you’re dreams are neuro surg

 

[allantois]

Talked to some OMS1s recently. Half either wanted to do Ortho or Derm

 

[bioboy23]

I am dead set on neurosurgery. BUT that is not to say that if I for some reason cannot become a neurosurgeon that I will not be happy to match something else. I more so would like to do pediatric neurosurgery. I was 5 when I had surgery to correct my Chiari malformation and this is where my love for the field has came. I really appreciate everyone’s comments!

Aye, Chiari bros! I've got one of 23mm, myself lmao.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Aye, Chiari bros! I've got one of 23mm, myself lmao.

Haha heck yea!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Honestly man I would heavily consider an SMP, MCAT retake, whatever you have to do honestly, in order to be able to go MD.

Didnt the ACGME scarf up all the DO neurosurgery spots, now making it nearly impossible for DOs to match neurosurgery?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Didnt the ACGME scarf up all the DO neurosurgery spots, now making it nearly impossible for DOs to match neurosurgery?

Yeah. I’m sure the 3 programs (4 maybe?) that made the merger will still put DO applicants on equal footing with the MDs but they sure aren’t going to be only choosing DOs anymore. It’s just a terrible gamble, even for people with 250+, 10+ pubs, and connections.

 

[hungrydoc710]

We had 1 neurosurg match last year, so it is doable, but as stated above, not really gonna happen.

Edit: It was at Mayo and she was a black female... there's also that.

We did match an ENT at the other Mayo, and an Ortho as well, but dunno where.

 

[SurgeDO]

Neurosurgery is a great field. It’s difficult to match as a DO but not impossible. You really got to want to be a neurosurgeon with every fiber of your being if you want to make it as a DO. The public perception of the field is very skewed, so it’s good to get involved with shadowing early on to get a better idea what neurosurgery is all about. We’re not plucking out brain tumors all day and sending them home to live merry lives. >50% of the job is doing elective spine surgery on old people. 20% of the job is managing non-operative traumatic brain injuries. Neurosurgery patients are some of the sickest patients in the hospital. We need to deliver a lot of bad news to people. Families often get infuriated at me when I need to explain to them that their loved one has suffered a devastating brain injury and that there is nothing we can do about it. It can be absolutely soul crushing but worth it depending on your outlook. Best of luck and enjoy your shadowing.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Neurosurgery is a great field. It’s difficult to match as a DO but not impossible. You really got to want to be a neurosurgeon with every fiber of your being if you want to make it as a DO. The public perception of the field is very skewed, so it’s good to get involved with shadowing early on to get a better idea what neurosurgery is all about. We’re not plucking out brain tumors all day and sending them home to live merry lives. >50% of the job is doing elective spine surgery on old people. 20% of the job is managing non-operative traumatic brain injuries. Neurosurgery patients are some of the sickest patients in the hospital. We need to deliver a lot of bad news to people. Families often get infuriated at me when I need to explain to them that their loved one has suffered a devastating brain injury and that there is nothing we can do about it. It can be absolutely soul crushing but worth it depending on your outlook. Best of luck and enjoy your shadowing.

This whole paragraph is almost word for word what the DO neurosurgeon said to me on the phone during on conversation, how funny! Thank you for the insight!

 

[AsianPersuasion]

Neurosurgery is a lifestyle on it's own. I hope you truly understand that. I'm PGY-1 in another surgery field and I see what my co-residents go through. All the surgery interns are dying right now, but neuro, VS, easily trump the others even in attendinghood. I noticed that things can't wait in neurosurgery. People die and it's quick. And those that make it, aren't really back to full function. It's not as hot as grey's anatomy. Hell, none of the surgical fields are like TV. WE WORK LIKE DOGS!

 

[Calizboosted76]

Neurosurgery is a lifestyle on it's own. I hope you truly understand that. I'm PGY-1 in another surgery field and I see what my co-residents go through. All the surgery interns are dying right now, but neuro, VS, easily trump the others even in attendinghood. I noticed that things can't wait in neurosurgery. People die and it's quick. And those that make it, aren't really back to full function. It's not as hot as grey's anatomy. Hell, none of the surgical fields are like TV. WE WORK LIKE DOGS!

I don’t follow medical shows because I know that it’s not ACTUALLY like that. I have many friends in surgical fields and have been involved in surgeries before as well. I understand what goes into getting there, the bad and the ugly (notice I didn’t mention the good). I have a background that has propulsed me towards neuro for many reasons and have spent a good 10 years just reading about it. I really appreciate everyone’s posts and comments and thoughts!

 

[hungrydoc710]

I don’t follow medical shows because I know that it’s not ACTUALLY like that. I have many friends in surgical fields and have been involved in surgeries before as well. I understand what goes into getting there, the bad and the ugly (notice I didn’t mention the good). I have a background that has propulsed me towards neuro for many reasons and have spent a good 10 years just reading about it. I really appreciate everyone’s posts and comments and thoughts!

Have a plan B bc you need 80th percentile scores for that.
Plan B... neuro minus the surg?

 

[Calizboosted76]

Have a plan B bc you need 80th percentile scores for that.
Plan B... neuro minus the surg?

Oh I definitely have back up plans. If I don’t match neuro its not going to be the end of the world. I will be sad as hell but I would be perfectly happy in any surgical specialty (aside from becoming a podiatrist), Or EM. Neurosurgery isn’t a be all end all for me.

 

[hungrydoc710]

Oh I definitely have back up plans. If I don’t match neuro its not going to be the end of the world. I will be sad as hell but I would be perfectly happy in any surgical specialty (aside from becoming a podiatrist), Or EM. Neurosurgery isn’t a be all end all for me.

You'll be class 2024?
Yeah any surgery field is going be minimal at that point IMO with the merger and overload of new DO students.
Just makes us look worse.

Gen surg will becoming increasingly harder to get. EM will stay constant as DO match quite well in that.

 

[scoopdaboop]

You'll be class 2024?
Yeah any surgery field is going be minimal at that point IMO with the merger and overload of new DO students.
Just makes us look worse.

Gen surg will becoming increasingly harder to get. EM will stay constant as DO match quite well in that.

overload of DO students in the next few years without any residencies opening up: PD's that maybe took a look at DO's will probably just won't anymore, even if they meet the "cut-offs", because why peruse through 50 more applications that are DO's that meet the cutoffs when that just takes more time, and not just cut DO students all together and focus on only matching MD's.

 

[hungrydoc710]

overload of DO students in the next few years without any residencies opening up: PD's that maybe took a look at DO's will probably just won't anymore, even if they meet the "cut-offs", because why peruse through 50 more applications that are DO's that meet the cutoffs when that just takes more time, and not just cut DO students all together and focus on only matching MD's.

That's what I'm saying
But DO's will still match into comp areas bc there just aren't that many MD's.
Bottom of the barrel DO will have an issue... others will not.