Shadowing an MD: how many hours?

[woodhorse22]

I shadowed a General Surgeon for 20 hours and asked him for a reference letter. Someone wrote to me on the forums that I shouldnt ask a doctor for a letter whom I have known for less than one year. Is this true? I mean i went to his office and post or pre opp patients came to him every 15 mins. I saw patients with hernia, gallstones, so some pictures of a gall bladder with gall stones, felt the beating of blood vessels supplying the testes, patients with breast lumps, pateints with hemarroides, variscose veins,etc. Basically i saw some very graphic things that I have never seen in my life and this guy comes on the forum telling me that the letter is not worth asking for... what is this? So guys please tell me should I ask this doctor for a letter. Also, I might even be able to shadow a family practioner. Should I shadow the surgeon for even more hours or try the family practioner? Please offer your suggestions. thanks

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[Captain Fantastic]

Shadow as long as you can for as long as it is useful.

The idea is to see first hand what a physician does so you can say with some authority, "Yes, I want to be a physician." Variety is nice, but not required. If you're going to say "I want to be a family medicine doc." at your interview it would look good if you had some experience shadowing a family medicine physician.

Spending more time with the surgeon might strengthen the LOR he writes because he has more personal experience with you to draw from. But if the surgeon is willing to write the letter after only 20 hours, and you're confident it will be a strong recommendation, you know what they say -- don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

There are no hard rules on this subject. Sounds like you learned a lot in your 20 hours with the surgeon. But - how much did the surgeon learn about you personally? If you had plenty of time to talk and he learned a great deal about you, he might be willing to write. Remember - a LOR is not meant to merely document that you shadowed - a LOR is supposed to vouch for your character, maturity, and chances for success in medical school. Can your surgeon do that?

I don't think anyone should tell you "don't ask this surgeon for a letter." Consider, however, that the surgeon knows exactly what medical school LORs are for - and chances are, he's going to be absolutely honest in his letter that you followed him for 20 hours and that, while you may have conducted yourself admirably, he doesn't know you very well. If you just can't find many people to write for you, this may be good enough - but when you're only allowed 3-5 letters, it's better to find people who've known you long enough to be able to talk about you as a student and a human being. A letter from a doctor who says he's only known you for 20 hours, frankly, is unlikely to carry much weight. The proper place to document what you saw while shadowing is in the AMCAS activities section, not in a letter. A letter from a professor who has seen you in class and in stressful situations for a semester or two - does carry weight. I hope this helps.

 

[woodhorse22]

The thing is that I have known this doctor for over a year, but I didnt really think of shadowing him. He has known me through my Aunt who is an ER Physician. I considered volunteering him in past few weeks. He knows me quite a bit as a person but in terms of number spent with him strictly dealing with medicine is about 20 hours. Besides, I though that 2 letters from physicians were required for secondaries for many schools. Isn't this true?

There are no hard rules on this subject. Sounds like you learned a lot in your 20 hours with the surgeon. But - how much did the surgeon learn about you personally? If you had plenty of time to talk and he learned a great deal about you, he might be willing to write. Remember - a LOR is not meant to merely document that you shadowed - a LOR is supposed to vouch for your character, maturity, and chances for success in medical school. Can your surgeon do that?

I don't think anyone should tell you "don't ask this surgeon for a letter." Consider, however, that the surgeon knows exactly what medical school LORs are for - and chances are, he's going to be absolutely honest in his letter that you followed him for 20 hours and that, while you may have conducted yourself admirably, he doesn't know you very well. If you just can't find many people to write for you, this may be good enough - but when you're only allowed 3-5 letters, it's better to find people who've known you long enough to be able to talk about you as a student and a human being. A letter from a doctor who says he's only known you for 20 hours, frankly, is unlikely to carry much weight. The proper place to document what you saw while shadowing is in the AMCAS activities section, not in a letter. A letter from a professor who has seen you in class and in stressful situations for a semester or two - does carry weight. I hope this helps.

 

[MedicineNutt]

The thing is that I have known this doctor for over a year, but I didnt really think of shadowing him. He has known me through my Aunt who is an ER Physician. I considered volunteering him in past few weeks. He knows me quite a bit as a person but in terms of number spent with him strictly dealing with medicine is about 20 hours. Besides, I though that 2 letters from physicians were required for secondaries for many schools. Isn't this true?

i think it's just 1 letter from a physician...could be wrong though!

 

[Depakote]

As long as you feel the doc knows you and can write a strong positive letter... go ahead and ask.

20 hours seems a little on the low side to me, but go with your gut.



My experience: I've waited until I have performed to the point where they could speak to my actions, character and personal qualities.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

The thing is that I have known this doctor for over a year, but I didnt really think of shadowing him. He has known me through my Aunt who is an ER Physician. I considered volunteering him in past few weeks. He knows me quite a bit as a person but in terms of number spent with him strictly dealing with medicine is about 20 hours. Besides, I though that 2 letters from physicians were required for secondaries for many schools. Isn't this true?

If he's known you for a year, and has probably heard quite a bit about you through your Aunt, then yes - by all means, ask him for a LOR. I see nothing wrong with it if he's known you for a year. Don't worry about having spent only 20 hours with him dealing with medicine - that's largely irrelevant for a LOR - LOR's are about character, motivation, and maturity. Make sure you list all the cool stuff you saw in your AMCAS activity section, though.

Most allopathic secondaries don't require a letter from a physician at all but it's a good idea if you have one (osteopathic schools generally do require one, from a practicing D.O.). Most schools want 3 letters, at least two from science professors. If you ask, however, you can usually submit more. I am a second-career premed and much older - so I had letters from physicians I've worked with for years and from the administration of the hospital where I work - in addition to my "academic" letters. I was usually allowed to submit 5 letters, sometimes 6 (which is the absolute maximum number you ever want to make them read). If you're a traditional student with 3 good letters, that's just fine.

 

[Medskool2006]

when you guys are talking about clinical experience, are you refering too specifically shadowing a doctor or volunteering in a hospital (patient care). I have volunteered in a hospital looking after patients for 2yrs but I've never shadowed a doctor. Do you think this is really a disadvantage.

I also don't know any MDs who can write me a later!! Its also hard to get to know science profs if you don't work for them, the class size is just too big. Ahhh i don't know what am gonna do!!

 

[Medskool2006]

when you guys are talking about clinical experience, are you refering too specifically shadowing a doctor or volunteering in a hospital (patient care). I have volunteered in a hospital looking after patients for 2yrs but I've never shadowed a doctor. Do you think this is really a disadvantage.

I also don't know any MDs who can write me a later!! Its also hard to get to know science profs if you don't work for them, the class size is just too big. Ahhh i don't know what am gonna do!!

can someone pls answere this.

 

[75969]

when you guys are talking about clinical experience, are you refering too specifically shadowing a doctor or volunteering in a hospital (patient care). I have volunteered in a hospital looking after patients for 2yrs but I've never shadowed a doctor. Do you think this is really a disadvantage.

I also don't know any MDs who can write me a later!! Its also hard to get to know science profs if you don't work for them, the class size is just too big. Ahhh i don't know what am gonna do!!

Both (shadowing and volunteering) are clinical experience... the difference is that shadowing shows you exactly what a doctor does and volunteering shows you the environment, a patients point of view, and that you are able to serve others without profit. I also have volunteered (only 1 year though) and never shadowed a doctor....I am however going to start shadowing through a volunteer program (look for clinics which offer shadowing in exchange for volunteering, some do!). You still have time...pick up the phone (I have been cold calling doctors offices with no luck, but eventually someone is going to say yes...)

I do think that having never actually spent time with a doctor puts you at a disadvantage...and not only in the application process, but in your understanding that you are truely making a good personal decision. I dont know MD's (or DO's) to write me a letter, either; I also have not heard that it is required to have an MD write a letter for medical school applications (although several DO schools do have this requirement).

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

can someone pls answere this.

Yes, "clinical experience" includes both volunteering in a healthcare setting as well as shadowing. Shadowing is important - it gives you a better idea of what a physician does, one-on-one. If you haven't shadowed yet, I'd find someone to shadow. If you have to list in your AMCAS that your shadowing experience is "in process" in the Summer of 2006 - don't panic, I think that's fine. They'll ask you more about it when you interview.

A doctor that you've only shadowed for a few hours, as I mentioned before, is not likely to be able to write you a strong letter... plus, MD letters are really not required for allopathic applications - unless you've known a doc long enough that he can write about you.

It's terrific that you've done volunteer patient care for two years. Is there a R.N. or volunteer supervisor who might be able to write for you? Don't think that medical schools wouldn't want a letter from a "mere" nurse or volunteer coordinator - the chief nurse at my hospital wrote me a terrific letter which was quoted in my interview. If a nurse thinks you're cooperative, hard-working, and not arrogant - that will get you MAJOR brownie points with an admissions committee. No school wants snotty, know-it-all med students who are going to give experienced nurses a hard time.

 

[45408]

I shadowed a General Surgeon for 20 hours and asked him for a reference letter. Someone wrote to me on the forums that I shouldnt ask a doctor for a letter whom I have known for less than one year. Is this true?

No. I had an MD write me a letter after I shadowed him in the ER for three shifts (over a span of several months). I was accepted to the school that asked for the letter.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

I shadowed a General Surgeon for 20 hours and asked him for a reference letter. Someone wrote to me on the forums that I shouldnt ask a doctor for a letter whom I have known for less than one year. Is this true? I mean i went to his office and post or pre opp patients came to him every 15 mins. I saw patients with hernia, gallstones, so some pictures of a gall bladder with gall stones, felt the beating of blood vessels supplying the testes, patients with breast lumps, pateints with hemarroides, variscose veins,etc. Basically i saw some very graphic things that I have never seen in my life and this guy comes on the forum telling me that the letter is not worth asking for... what is this? So guys please tell me should I ask this doctor for a letter. Also, I might even be able to shadow a family practioner. Should I shadow the surgeon for even more hours or try the family practioner? Please offer your suggestions. thanks

There are A LOT of people on SDN who have NO IDEA what they are talking about!!!!!!!!! Don't listen to whoever told you that you should't ask for a letter because you didn't know him for X number of years. If he has gotten to know you personally and knows your character and can write you a strong letter, use it!!

 

[LizzyM]

Its also hard to get to know science profs if you don't work for them, the class size is just too big. Ahhh i don't know what am gonna do!!

This is a problem. Often a prof will ask the person who supervised you in the lab portion of the course for imput in the letter. Another way that some students seem to get to know professors is by attending office hours and talking with the professor at that time. Also, as you take upper level courses, your class size should decline and you are more likely to have a faculty member who knows you by name.

Worse case scenario (and I see many of these and they aren 't so bad): the faculty member writes that you received a X for the course (which I knew looking at your AMCAS) but puts it in perspective: e.g. that you did poorly on the first test and then worked hard to bring up your grade or that you were among the top 3 in the class of 200 throughout the year and missed having the highest grade in the class by 0.1 points , etc etc.