Shadowing DO vs MD

[ppfizenm]

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Does anyone else feel like it is better to shadow a DO as opposed to an MD? You can apply to both with a DO LOR and MD schools are/have adopting/ed a holistic approach to medicine. Anyone know of any downsides?

 

[aSagacious]

A letter from a doctor that you shadowed (whether MD or DO) is effectively worthless. That said, there is no difference in the day-to-day activity of an MD compared to a DO. Therefore, shadow whichever you are able to. 👍

 

[zwitterion34]

A letter from a doctor that you shadowed (whether MD or DO) is effectively worthless. That said, there is no difference in the day-to-day activity of an MD compared to a DO. Therefore, shadow whichever you are able to. 👍

Can you explain why it is worthless? I'm a little curious.

 

[ppfizenm]

Can you explain why it is worthless? I'm a little curious.

I'd like to know that as well?

 

[zwitterion34]

Also I haz teh question. If LORs do matter, LORs from whom are the best? Would it be ideal to receive a LOR from a family physician? surgeon? or a dermatologist?

 

[orthomyxo]

Can you explain why it is worthless? I'm a little curious.

Well for one, the doctor probably won't know you very well unless have some strange long-term shadowing arrangement. And I'm not sure how one's ability to stand in a corner and keep quiet is a good indicator of one's potential as a physician.

 

[ppfizenm]

Also I haz teh question. If LORs do matter, LORs from whom are the best? Would it be ideal to receive a LOR from a family physician? surgeon? or a dermatologist?

That I think doesn't really matter as long as you show an interest in the area the doctor works in. I mean if you don't want to be a urologist then don't shadow a urologist.

 

[zwitterion34]

Well for one, the doctor probably won't know you very well unless have some strange long-term shadowing arrangement. And I'm not sure how one's ability to stand in a corner and keep quiet is a good indicator of one's potential as a physician.

Since doctors are busy, you would expect them to be reluctant to write an LOR on your behalf. Hence, I feel if you get an LOR from a physician it seemingly implies that you have demonstrated some qualities that compelled the doctor into writing this LOR.

 

[UnclePhil]

A letter from a doctor that you shadowed (whether MD or DO) is effectively worthless. That said, there is no difference in the day-to-day activity of an MD compared to a DO. Therefore, shadow whichever you are able to. 👍

I had an adcom tell me last year "to us, shadowing is only useful if you can get a letter of rec out of it"

 

[zwitterion34]

I had an adcom tell me last year "to us, shadowing is only useful if you can get a letter of rec out of it"

I believes you. 😀
p.s. I have an uncle named Phil. We could potentially be related.

 

[sector9]

Can you explain why it is worthless? I'm a little curious.

I'll take a stab at answering this.

Most applicants shadow a doctor for at most 20-30 hours before moving on to a different specialty (past that, it starts to get really boring and isn't that beneficial for your app anyway). During that time, the doctor will get to see 2 things
1. How well the applicant can stand in a corner and be silent
2. How many basic questions the applicant can cram into any dead time

So why would a letter from a doctor be particularly useful? The doctor doesn't see the applicants academic performance nor does the doctor really have enough information to compare the applicant with other applicants. The doctor doesn't really get to see the applicant interacting with the patient besides "Hello" and "Goodbye".

Compare the situation with a science professor who may see hundreds of premeds in his or her class every year. The professor can see how the student relates with his or her peers and can see the academic performance and potential of the student. Nonscience professors may not see as many premeds, or at least don't know they're premeds, but they still get plenty of students who want graduate degrees and they can give the adcom a good view of the student in a different environment from a science classroom.

Other good letters could come from PI's over the applicants research, supervisors over a group of volunteers, and sometimes from employers (there are others of course). Notice that each of these categories involve a substantial interaction with the student. The interaction is much less superficial than the physician you shadowed for a few days.

If you get involved with a clinical research project and a doctor is leading it, by all means get a great letter from the doctor. I would also say if you find a doctor who "takes you under his wing" and mentors you for a while, then it might be appropriate to get a physicians LOR. However, this is not the case with the majority of applicants.

 

[ppfizenm]

Well for one, the doctor probably won't know you very well unless have some strange long-term shadowing arrangement. And I'm not sure how one's ability to stand in a corner and keep quiet is a good indicator of one's potential as a physician.

That's entirely dependent on what the doctor lets you do. I've never just "stood in a corner and kept quiet" though. When I was in the ER they would let me do stuff like take histories and listen to hearts and teach me how to draw blood. When I shadowed a GP he let me preform physicals and EKGs. Standing there just seems boring compared to what you could be doing.

 

[zwitterion34]

That's entirely dependent on what the doctor lets you do. I've never just "stood in a corner and kept quiet" though. When I was in the ER they would let me do stuff like take histories and listen to hearts and teach me how to draw blood. When I shadowed a GP he let me preform physicals and EKGs. Standing there just seems boring compared to what you could be doing.

At the same time, a student who is shadowing could easily just get in the way like a sore thumb and slow the doctor down from going through his daily routine.

 

[alexandertg6]

That's entirely dependent on what the doctor lets you do. I've never just "stood in a corner and kept quiet" though. When I was in the ER they would let me do stuff like take histories and listen to hearts and teach me how to draw blood. When I shadowed a GP he let me preform physicals and EKGs. Standing there just seems boring compared to what you could be doing.

+1... Idk where you guys all shadowed but it sounds aweful. I shadowed an internist who let me listen to patients etc and very often a patient would offer to let me repeat a portion of a physical exam that yielded a clinical result (like feeling a bakers cyst behind the knee). At my exit interview at UNC, they told me to get a few new LoRs for this application cycle, but make sure to keep the one I had from a physician. I have seen the "LoRs from a physician are effectively useless" post so many times on SDN and it simply is not true. LoRs from anyone who doesnt know you are useless, but a physician who gets to know you well and who you impress (and will write you a good LoR) is invaluable.

 

[alexandertg6]

At the same time, a student who is shadowing could easily just get in the way like a sore thumb and slow the doctor down from going through his daily routine.

Have you ever seen a med student do something and how long that takes? The attending could easily do it in 1/10th the time, but teaching hospitals sacrifice time in order to teach.

 

[ppfizenm]

oops

 

[sector9]

I think that some of the confusion comes from a difference in terms.

Shadowing is a passive observership. By definition, you follow the doctor around and watch.

If you are taking histories or whatever, you are going beyond plain vanilla shadowing. It sounds like the doctors are treating you like a med student in a rotation almost. That really isn't shadowing. Of course it still goes on your application as shadowing.

So when the phrase "LORs from physicians you shadowed are worthless" is thrown out there, it is by definition talking about shadowing and not some sort of a mix between premed shadowing and medical student clerkship.

 

[orthomyxo]

Since doctors are busy, you would expect them to be reluctant to write an LOR on your behalf. Hence, I feel if you get an LOR from a physician it seemingly implies that you have demonstrated some qualities that compelled the doctor into writing this LOR.

Super cool logic, bro. But it all comes down to the content of the letter, and not whatever meanings are implicit in the letter having been written. If this person does not know you very well and has not seen you excel in something other than passive observation, his letter probably isn't worth being included with your app.

 

[Morzh]

I had an adcom tell me last year "to us, shadowing is only useful if you can get a letter of rec out of it"

Because shadowing is itself a big waste of time. But there's an entire thread devoted to that debate. If you can get some kind of obligatory letter of rec from it, great... probably the best reason to do it. But there are far better letter writers like professors and other who have worked closely with you for an extended period of time. If you don't have enough of those, sure, use a physician to meet your 3-5 letter quota. But the general consensus among most of the knowledgeable people I've heard (including nearly all the adcom members that contribute here) is that physician letters very rarely impact an application either positively or negatively. They're just empty words.

My point is that there is nothing wrong with getting one as long as you realize that letters from professors, mentors, PIs, etc. carry far more weight.

And it doesn't matter one bit whether the physician graduated from a DO school instead of an MD school.

 

[vnicolas]

Shadowing plays a big part in whether you get accepted or not, I was told by my advisor and I called UM medical school in Fl, and they stated they do not really care for volunteering but shadowing is a must

 

[Morzh]

Clinical experience/exposure plays a big part in whether you get accepted or not, I was told by my advisor and I called UM medical school in Fl, and they stated they do not really care for volunteering but clinical experience/exposure is a must

Fixed.

The whole point is that they want people who have seriously investigated the career they profess to be so devoted to. Have you seen both the bad and the good? Do you really have a clue what medicine is like, or do you just want to be like House or want the prestige? For many traditional premeds shadowing is the simplest and easiest way to get a little exposure, but there are other, superior, ways as well. If you've worked in healthcare or done significant volunteering in a healthcare setting shadowing could easily become useless overkill in your application.

If your parents pay for your schooling and you don't have to work and your life revolves around your class schedule then shadowing is better than nothing.

 

[sector9]

Because shadowing is itself a big waste of time. But there's an entire thread devoted to that debate. If you can get some kind of obligatory letter of rec from it, great... probably the best reason to do it. But there are far better letter writers like professors and other who have worked closely with you for an extended period of time. If you don't have enough of those, sure, use a physician to meet your 3-5 letter quota. But the general consensus among most of the knowledgeable people I've heard (including nearly all the adcom members that contribute here) is that physician letters very rarely impact an application either positively or negatively. They're just empty words.

My point is that there is nothing wrong with getting one as long as you realize that letters from professors, mentors, PIs, etc. carry far more weight.

And it doesn't matter one bit whether the physician graduated from a DO school instead of an MD school.

Fixed.

The whole point is that they want people who have seriously investigated the career they profess to be so devoted to. Have you seen both the bad and the good? Do you really have a clue what medicine is like, or do you just want to be like House or want the prestige? For many traditional premeds shadowing is the simplest and easiest way to get a little exposure, but there are other, superior, ways as well. If you've worked in healthcare or done significant volunteering in a healthcare setting shadowing could easily become useless overkill in your application.

If your parents pay for your schooling and you don't have to work and your life revolves around your class schedule then shadowing is better than nothing.

Lol. I would consider shadowing a "must" too if you want to have the best possible success.

The reason why is that schools expect it. And even if the school doesn't announce that they expect it, some adcom members expect it. Who would want their application rejected because they didn't do shadowing? That's the easiest EC. For example, UWash, Utah, and Creighton all state that shadowing is a requirement on their websites. And it sounds like Miami requires it to.

Can you get in without shadowing? Sure. Could you be rejected at schools just for something stupid like that? Yes. So I think it's a requirement

 

[PlatypusMD]

Depending on who you're shadowing, you don't necessarily have to stand in the corner like a scarecrow. When I shadowed a doctor in peds onc, I kept the patients entertained while the doctor discussed meds with the parents.

 

[WorldChanger36]

OP, I think there is a stronger benefit in shadowing a DO over an MD if and only if you are applying to both MD and DO schools. If you are I would get at least one LOR from the DO and just shadow to MDs to put something on the app and of course for the experience. I doubt you need multiple LORs from Docs, just one or two will do.

 

[Neurosis]

A letter from a doctor that you shadowed (whether MD or DO) is effectively worthless. That said, there is no difference in the day-to-day activity of an MD compared to a DO. Therefore, shadow whichever you are able to. 👍

I thought so. 👍