shadowing...starting late...

[Zumab]

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I am going to apply next year (July-August) and I have around 50 hrs of shadowing with three different doctors (all one or two day things) a couple of years ago but I think my clinical experience is lacking so I will start shadowing someone regularly this month. If I continue, do you think this is too late (since its six months before applying)? 🙁
In other words, does this make it seem too much of a late minute thing? of course, it would have been more ideal to start these things at least a year or so in advance...

Edit: I already have clinical volunteering on the side. I just would like to add more shadowing hours and get a more in depth experience of patient care 🙂

 

[Lawpy]

50 hours of shadowing in itself is fine. So having more shadowing to be updated won't be held against you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Shadowing is not true clinical experience FWIW. You need clinical volunteering.

 

[mimelim]

Shadowing is not true clinical experience FWIW. You need clinical volunteering.

This is not true.

Shadowing can be and in many cases is a far more valuable clinical experience than volunteering or working in healthcare. It does not demonstrate altruism, but that isn't the purpose of clinical exposure.

 

[Turkishking]

See if you can volunteer at the hospital. It's getting close to the spring semester so they are taking applications..

 

[Lawpy]

This is not true.

Shadowing can be and in many cases is a far more valuable clinical experience than volunteering or working in healthcare. It does not demonstrate altruism, but that isn't the purpose of clinical exposure.

I just view shadowing to be different from the clinical experience/volunteering etc. They serve as useful complements but idk if one is superior to the other

 

[Zumab]

Shadowing is not true clinical experience FWIW. You need clinical volunteering.

I also have clinical volunteering but I want more shadowing hours. I am not sure if this is considered "too late" so to speak. or comes off as late minute padding or something like that...
Thanks!

 

[Turkishking]

I also have clinical volunteering but I want more shadowing hours. I am not sure if this is considered "too late" so to speak. or comes off as late minute padding or something like that...
Thanks!

I wouldn't think so.

 

[Lawpy]

I also have clinical volunteering but I want more shadowing hours. I am not sure if this is considered "too late" so to speak. or comes off as late minute padding or something like that...
Thanks!

.... you already have 50 hours from before... if anything, it's just an update.

 

[mimelim]

I just view shadowing to be different from the clinical experience/volunteering etc. They serve as useful complements but idk if one is superior to the other

I would absolutely not view one as "superior" to the other. They are simply different. Things we value:

#1 Life experience - get from working and volunteering (and anything where you interact with people and do things)
#2 Altruism - demonstrated via volunteering or other activities where the benefits of your actions are largely others
#3 A realistic understanding of what the medical pathway is and what the destination looks like - get from clinical exposure, shadowing > all else as you have no distractions.

Different activities will get you one or more of those things in different quantities. My post was simply to point out that shadowing practically the definition of clinical experience and in no world do you NEED clinical volunteering.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yeah I worded that poorly. @Lawper said it more eloquently. I just view shadowing as different from going out and volunteering around patients or finding some sort of a job in a clinical setting. Like we already talked about one is not better than the other but I think it shows something of someone went out and saught out clinical experiences outside of shadowing. I am totally in agreement with what has been said.

OP no it isn't too late. Even if you have the hours keep shadowing because sometimes it can be cool IMO.

 

[Lawpy]

I would absolutely not view one as "superior" to the other. They are simply different. Things we value:

#1 Life experience - get from working and volunteering (and anything where you interact with people and do things)
#2 Altruism - demonstrated via volunteering or other activities where the benefits of your actions are largely others
#3 A realistic understanding of what the medical pathway is and what the destination looks like - get from clinical exposure, shadowing > all else as you have no distractions.

Different activities will get you one or more of those things in different quantities. My post was simply to point out that shadowing practically the definition of clinical experience and in no world do you NEED clinical volunteering.

That's good criteria, but I was a little lost by this:

Shadowing can be and in many cases is a far more valuable clinical experience than volunteering or working in healthcare.

I'm not sure how shadowing is more valuable if it's just a passive observation as opposed to actively engaging yourself in a clinical setting.

 

[mimelim]

That's good criteria, but I was a little lost by this:



I'm not sure how shadowing is more valuable if it's just a passive observation as opposed to actively engaging yourself in clinical setting.

Medical school is for training doctors. Clinical experience is medical school admissions is about knowing what a doctor does. What they do day to day. What they think about between patients. What headaches they have to deal with. What their role is in healthcare. The "skills" derived from other clinical experiences are not particularly sought after or valued. I've heard pre-meds argue that they learned a lot as a scribe or tech or EMT etc. But, honestly, most adcoms don't value those skills. Is it bad? No. Absolutely not. But, I don't think that those "skills" make an applicant more attractive. If anything, by being more engaged, you are less able to reflect on what you are doing. Our scribes don't have nearly the experience that our shadows do. They get paid and they get experience doing a job. But, their focus is on not ****ing up and not slowing us down. Not the difficulty that a surgeon is having caring for a patient or dealing with residents or whatever it is.

Part of the course that I help coordinate requires students to write 'reflections' on their shadowing. While it is a bunch of busy work and to be honest I don't really want to read their reflections, I think that it IS valuable for pre-meds to do that. Those reflections are the basis for real, good answers for many secondary questions. They allow for a lot more thinking and putting things together than, "I worked in a doctor's office and it looked cool."

I don't mean to say that other jobs in the clinical setting aren't valuable. Just simply being around patients is valuable in any context. But, I think that a lot of people tend to get caught up in, "well I worked 1000 hours as a scribe, so that means I automatically know what I'm getting into." Which just simply isn't always the case.

 

[Lawpy]

Medical school is for training doctors. Clinical experience is medical school admissions is about knowing what a doctor does. What they do day to day. What they think about between patients. What headaches they have to deal with. What their role is in healthcare. The "skills" derived from other clinical experiences are not particularly sought after or valued. I've heard pre-meds argue that they learned a lot as a scribe or tech or EMT etc. But, honestly, most adcoms don't value those skills. Is it bad? No. Absolutely not. But, I don't think that those "skills" make an applicant more attractive. If anything, by being more engaged, you are less able to reflect on what you are doing. Our scribes don't have nearly the experience that our shadows do. They get paid and they get experience doing a job. But, their focus is on not ****ing up and not slowing us down. Not the difficulty that a surgeon is having caring for a patient or dealing with residents or whatever it is.

Part of the course that I help coordinate requires students to write 'reflections' on their shadowing. While it is a bunch of busy work and to be honest I don't really want to read their reflections, I think that it IS valuable for pre-meds to do that. Those reflections are the basis for real, good answers for many secondary questions. They allow for a lot more thinking and putting things together than, "I worked in a doctor's office and it looked cool."

I don't mean to say that other jobs in the clinical setting aren't valuable. Just simply being around patients is valuable in any context. But, I think that a lot of people tend to get caught up in, "well I worked 1000 hours as a scribe, so that means I automatically know what I'm getting into." Which just simply isn't always the case.

That's an interesting perspective in shadowing. Normally, I just view it as what an attending and a team of residents/interns do for each case, learn some cool stuff and observe the typical day. But aside from that, it really doesn't add onto much I already know from engaging in simple clinical volunteering or busy clinical/translational research. That's why I was a little confused as to how shadowing can thoroughly address secondary questions into what we know about medicine if we can easily access them through other clinical experiences... or well, even by reading newspapers/analyses on the topic.

There is also the view that shadowing is entirely selfish. The attending is essentially reserving some time in their schedule to allow you to enjoy the experiences. It's essentially a one-way deal that benefits the premed but really doesn't help the attending.

But it's good to have a more positive outlook on the benefits of shadowing and how that ties up with the rest of the experiences.

 

[Gurby]

There is also the view that shadowing is entirely selfish. The attending is essentially reserving some time in their schedule to allow you to enjoy the experiences. It's essentially a one-way deal that benefits the premed but really doesn't help the attending.

Maybe I've just lucked out on this, but the doctors I've shadowed have been super excited about having a student with them. I think some people just enjoy teaching, the energy and enthusiasm of youth(/naivete), change of pace of having a new face around, etc. When I told one doc I wouldn't be able to shadow anymore because my schedule was getting busier, he was visibly sad and suggested maybe I could come back over the summer! He must have been getting something out of the arrangement even if wasn't helping his bottom line per se.

 

[dreamadream]

I'm a sophomore and I haven't accomplished anything that will help me to get into med school.
No volunteer experience whatsoever
No shadowing whatsoever
No research whatsoever
No clinical experience whatsoever
Just basic stuff, like a part-job, joining clubs in school...that's it.
Once I buy a car, I can transport myself to these sites, but other then that, I cannot afford to go to all these places without a car.
You'll be fine.

 

[ZPakEffect]

Medical school is for training doctors. Clinical experience is medical school admissions is about knowing what a doctor does. What they do day to day. What they think about between patients. What headaches they have to deal with. What their role is in healthcare. The "skills" derived from other clinical experiences are not particularly sought after or valued. I've heard pre-meds argue that they learned a lot as a scribe or tech or EMT etc. But, honestly, most adcoms don't value those skills. Is it bad? No. Absolutely not. But, I don't think that those "skills" make an applicant more attractive. If anything, by being more engaged, you are less able to reflect on what you are doing. Our scribes don't have nearly the experience that our shadows do. They get paid and they get experience doing a job. But, their focus is on not ****ing up and not slowing us down. Not the difficulty that a surgeon is having caring for a patient or dealing with residents or whatever it is.

Part of the course that I help coordinate requires students to write 'reflections' on their shadowing. While it is a bunch of busy work and to be honest I don't really want to read their reflections, I think that it IS valuable for pre-meds to do that. Those reflections are the basis for real, good answers for many secondary questions. They allow for a lot more thinking and putting things together than, "I worked in a doctor's office and it looked cool."

I don't mean to say that other jobs in the clinical setting aren't valuable. Just simply being around patients is valuable in any context. But, I think that a lot of people tend to get caught up in, "well I worked 1000 hours as a scribe, so that means I automatically know what I'm getting into." Which just simply isn't always the case.

What skills do you think a scribe learns? At the hospital I work at, the scribes learn how to talk to patients and perform physical exams; how to formulate a differential diagnosis and come up with an appropriate workup; how to work with nurses and technicians to get tests performed and patients discharged or admitted; how to talk with hospitalists and specialists and convince them to admit, consult on, or follow up with patients; how to review a patient's medical records to aid in medical decision making; how to deal with difficult patients or family members; how to tell a patient and his or her family about a bad diagnosis; when to get social workers, crisis clinicians, or the police involved; and many other things that someone who is shadowing will just not be able to learn. I know because I have worked as a scribe for over a year and I have shadowed multiple physicians for hundreds of hours. I feel sorry for the scribes who work at your institution, but don't generalize your personal experience with scribes to all scribe positions in every hospital in the country.

 

[mimelim]

What skills do you think a scribe learns? At the hospital I work at, the scribes learn how to talk to patients and perform physical exams; how to formulate a differential diagnosis and come up with an appropriate workup; how to work with nurses and technicians to get tests performed and patients discharged or admitted; how to talk with hospitalists and specialists and convince them to admit, consult on, or follow up with patients; how to review a patient's medical records to aid in medical decision making; how to deal with difficult patients or family members; how to tell a patient and his or her family about a bad diagnosis; when to get social workers, crisis clinicians, or the police involved; and many other things that someone who is shadowing will just not be able to learn. I know because I have worked as a scribe for over a year and I have shadowed multiple physicians for hundreds of hours. I feel sorry for the scribes who work at your institution, but don't generalize your personal experience with scribes to all scribe positions in every hospital in the country.

That sounds like a pretty ****ty position to put someone who has no medical background. I highly doubt that most places function that way. If for no other reason than the liability.

 

[ZPakEffect]

That sounds like a pretty ****ty position to put someone who has no medical background. I highly doubt that most places function that way. If for no other reason than the liability.

Why is it a ****ty position? I am not the one touching the patients, but the doctors let us listen to heart/lung sounds, look into throats, and watch dozens of physical exams each shift. I am not the one talking to the hospitalists and specialists, but we record each conversation and the consultants' recommendations into the chart. I do get to come up with workups for patients but the doctor reviews the orders and modifies them as appropriate. There is nothing unsafe happening. Being a scribe, you get to observe everything that a shadower can, but you also have the responsibility/opportunity to further integrate the things you are seeing and hearing by documenting them into a chart. The work we are doing is exactly the kind of work that medical students, residents, and attendings who lack scribes do on a daily basis. If someone who works as a scribe fails to learn many times as much as someone who merely shadows, that person is either being overworked in a crappy environment or lacks learning capability.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

That sounds like a pretty ****ty position to put someone who has no medical background. I highly doubt that most places function that way. If for no other reason than the liability.

i agree. I was shocked and really concerned reading this. I'm in canada where laws are stricter, but still, there is no way a patient should ever be having their physicals or diagnosis come from a non-trained worker. That's terrifying

 

[123456123456]

What skills do you think a scribe learns? At the hospital I work at, the scribes learn how to talk to patients and perform physical exams; how to formulate a differential diagnosis and come up with an appropriate workup; how to work with nurses and technicians to get tests performed and patients discharged or admitted; how to talk with hospitalists and specialists and convince them to admit, consult on, or follow up with patients; how to review a patient's medical records to aid in medical decision making; how to deal with difficult patients or family members; how to tell a patient and his or her family about a bad diagnosis; when to get social workers, crisis clinicians, or the police involved; and many other things that someone who is shadowing will just not be able to learn. I know because I have worked as a scribe for over a year and I have shadowed multiple physicians for hundreds of hours. I feel sorry for the scribes who work at your institution, but don't generalize your personal experience with scribes to all scribe positions in every hospital in the country.

As an accepted student who has been working as a scribe for 3 years, I second this. I have heard some med students say that scribes & EMTs feel that the course that teaches H&Ps and stuff is super easy for the scribes and EMTs and others struggle in it (because there are a lot of pertinent questions to ask that vary for each complaint). I have medical issues and so does my grandma and when I talk to the docs, they are surprised at what I know. I have heard multiple times that they did not know nearly as much as me when they were pre-meds. Ergo, I definitely second what you say 🙂

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

I can't believe its almost the start of another cycle...it felt like I was working on my apps not too long ago and now the next year rolls along like the tides. Makes me feel old and I haven't even started m1 yet..

I am going to apply next year (July-August) and I have around 50 hrs of shadowing with three different doctors (all one or two day things) a couple of years ago but I think my clinical experience is lacking so I will start shadowing someone regularly this month. If I continue, do you think this is too late (since its six months before applying)? 🙁
In other words, does this make it seem too much of a late minute thing? of course, it would have been more ideal to start these things at least a year or so in advance...

Edit: I already have clinical volunteering on the side. I just would like to add more shadowing hours and get a more in depth experience of patient care 🙂

 

[Ambiences]

You're not late at all. The key thing is: were these shadowing experiences meaningful to you and did you pull sufficient experience out of them? I only had ~25 hours of shadowing this time last year and applied with ~80 hours of shadowing overall.

 

[Psai]

What skills do you think a scribe learns? At the hospital I work at, the scribes learn how to talk to patients and perform physical exams; how to formulate a differential diagnosis and come up with an appropriate workup; how to work with nurses and technicians to get tests performed and patients discharged or admitted; how to talk with hospitalists and specialists and convince them to admit, consult on, or follow up with patients; how to review a patient's medical records to aid in medical decision making; how to deal with difficult patients or family members; how to tell a patient and his or her family about a bad diagnosis; when to get social workers, crisis clinicians, or the police involved; and many other things that someone who is shadowing will just not be able to learn. I know because I have worked as a scribe for over a year and I have shadowed multiple physicians for hundreds of hours. I feel sorry for the scribes who work at your institution, but don't generalize your personal experience with scribes to all scribe positions in every hospital in the country.

So you're saying that the scribes at your hospital act as doctors without a shred of medical education instead of just writing things down as is the job description? This is the same kind of nonsense that has infiltrated every single area of this country where people are not happy with their job description and inflate what they do in some misguided endeavor for respect. It's disrespectful to patients to attempt what you are not trained to perform and it is illegal to practice medicine without a license.

Watching someone do something and understanding why someone does something are completely different things. My experience on family medicine as a first year medical student and as a third year medical student were two completely different things.

As an accepted student who has been working as a scribe for 3 years, I second this. I have heard some med students say that scribes & EMTs feel that the course that teaches H&Ps and stuff is super easy for the scribes and EMTs and others struggle in it (because there are a lot of pertinent questions to ask that vary for each complaint). I have medical issues and so does my grandma and when I talk to the docs, they are surprised at what I know. I have heard multiple times that they did not know nearly as much as me when they were pre-meds. Ergo, I definitely second what you say 🙂

A janitor in a hospital knows more than most premeds. I don't know why you're so proud of yourself.

 

[123456123456]

So you're saying that the scribes at your hospital act as doctors without a shred of medical education instead of just writing things down as is the job description? This is the same kind of nonsense that has infiltrated every single area of this country where people are not happy with their job description and inflate what they do in some misguided endeavor for respect. It's disrespectful to patients to attempt what you are not trained to perform and it is illegal to practice medicine without a license.

Watching someone do something and understanding why someone does something are completely different things. My experience on family medicine as a first year medical student and as a third year medical student were two completely different things.



A janitor in a hospital knows more than most premeds. I don't know why you're so proud of yourself.

I think you are misinterpreting what I have to say. Obviously there is still a ton to learn but I feel like scribing (and some other experiences like EMT) gives you a little extra boost compared to some other experiences. For instance, I volunteered at a hospital for multiple years and did not learn much. While I know I still have a lot to learn, I feel like scribing has taught me a tremendous amount in regards to pertinent questions, meds and their uses, med term, how doctors deal with difficult patients, etc. that I would not have know if I was not a scribe & I have found the experience to be extremely valuable. IMO, any advantage you can have in med school is a plus. I also feel like it allows you to see the life of a doctor in the specialty you are scribing for which helps you have an idea of what you are getting yourself into which is beneficial.

 

[Favoritefarm]

As long as you did it and have something to talk about